ICNIRP


geoffrey pike
 

I have just received an e-mail from Ofcom telling me that i must observe the ICNIRP rules, so do i go to their
website and fill in my details or what?
cheers
Geoff
GI0GDP


Andy G4JNT
 

You read what they sent you, and note you don't do anything yet



On Wed, 3 Mar 2021 at 17:10, geoffrey pike via groups.io <gi0gdp=yahoo.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:
I have just received an e-mail from Ofcom telling me that i must observe the ICNIRP rules, so do i go to their
website and fill in my details or what?
cheers
Geoff
GI0GDP


ian hope (2E0IJH)
 

The letters about as clear as mud, but this is ofcom's calculator https://www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/excel_doc/0021/214455/emf-calculator-v0.1.2.xlsx, stick your details in here and note result
 
ian
M5IJH

 
 
Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2021 at 5:14 PM
From: "Andy G4JNT" <andy.g4jnt@...>
To: "UK Microwaves groups.io" <UKMicrowaves@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [UKMicrowaves] ICNIRP
You read what they sent you, and note you don't do anything yet
 
Andy
 
 
On Wed, 3 Mar 2021 at 17:10, geoffrey pike via groups.io <gi0gdp=yahoo.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:
I have just received an e-mail from Ofcom telling me that i must observe the ICNIRP rules, so do i go to their
website and fill in my details or what?
cheers
Geoff
GI0GDP

 

 


Andy G4JNT
 

The email clearly states they will be updating the licence in the future.
That's all it says that is of any relevance
Everything else is just references to their publications
And we all know that stuff by now



On Wed, 3 Mar 2021 at 17:19, ian hope (2E0IJH) <ian@...> wrote:
The letters about as clear as mud, but this is ofcom's calculator https://www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/excel_doc/0021/214455/emf-calculator-v0.1.2.xlsx, stick your details in here and note result
 
ian
M5IJH
 
 
Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2021 at 5:14 PM
From: "Andy G4JNT" <andy.g4jnt@...>
To: "UK Microwaves groups.io" <UKMicrowaves@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [UKMicrowaves] ICNIRP
You read what they sent you, and note you don't do anything yet
 
Andy
 
 
On Wed, 3 Mar 2021 at 17:10, geoffrey pike via groups.io <gi0gdp=yahoo.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:
I have just received an e-mail from Ofcom telling me that i must observe the ICNIRP rules, so do i go to their
website and fill in my details or what?
cheers
Geoff
GI0GDP

 

 


John Fell
 

The calculator talks about a "conservative tool "- is that coincidence - plenty of it about .

73
John
G0API

On Wed, 3 Mar 2021 at 17:23, Andy G4JNT <andy.g4jnt@...> wrote:
The email clearly states they will be updating the licence in the future.
That's all it says that is of any relevance
Everything else is just references to their publications
And we all know that stuff by now



On Wed, 3 Mar 2021 at 17:19, ian hope (2E0IJH) <ian@...> wrote:
The letters about as clear as mud, but this is ofcom's calculator https://www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/excel_doc/0021/214455/emf-calculator-v0.1.2.xlsx, stick your details in here and note result
 
ian
M5IJH
 
 
Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2021 at 5:14 PM
From: "Andy G4JNT" <andy.g4jnt@...>
To: "UK Microwaves groups.io" <UKMicrowaves@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [UKMicrowaves] ICNIRP
You read what they sent you, and note you don't do anything yet
 
Andy
 
 
On Wed, 3 Mar 2021 at 17:10, geoffrey pike via groups.io <gi0gdp=yahoo.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:
I have just received an e-mail from Ofcom telling me that i must observe the ICNIRP rules, so do i go to their
website and fill in my details or what?
cheers
Geoff
GI0GDP

 

 


Andy G4JNT
 

Political comments on this uWave Group  OM :-)




On Wed, 3 Mar 2021 at 17:27, John Fell <john.g0api@...> wrote:
The calculator talks about a "conservative tool "- is that coincidence - plenty of it about .

73
John
G0API

On Wed, 3 Mar 2021 at 17:23, Andy G4JNT <andy.g4jnt@...> wrote:
The email clearly states they will be updating the licence in the future.
That's all it says that is of any relevance
Everything else is just references to their publications
And we all know that stuff by now



On Wed, 3 Mar 2021 at 17:19, ian hope (2E0IJH) <ian@...> wrote:
The letters about as clear as mud, but this is ofcom's calculator https://www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/excel_doc/0021/214455/emf-calculator-v0.1.2.xlsx, stick your details in here and note result
 
ian
M5IJH
 
 
Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2021 at 5:14 PM
From: "Andy G4JNT" <andy.g4jnt@...>
To: "UK Microwaves groups.io" <UKMicrowaves@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [UKMicrowaves] ICNIRP
You read what they sent you, and note you don't do anything yet
 
Andy
 
 
On Wed, 3 Mar 2021 at 17:10, geoffrey pike via groups.io <gi0gdp=yahoo.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:
I have just received an e-mail from Ofcom telling me that i must observe the ICNIRP rules, so do i go to their
website and fill in my details or what?
cheers
Geoff
GI0GDP

 

 


militaryoperator
 

Input parameters
Transmitter power (EIRP)=    Watts ← Enter EIRP (Watts) in cell D5. EIRP (Watts) = ERP (Watts) x 1.64
----------------

Poor use of a spreadsheet. You have to manually calculate your power at ERP then x 1.64 then enter that. 
Its a spreadsheet, it calculates. Why not just folk to enter their power in Watts and ant gain, it can then do the calc. 

What about a random length of wire on hf? whats its ERP?

Ben


g4bao
 

Clearly written by a Tool and not checked,  as the result is in cell  D14 not D16 as it says.

Probably written by Ofcom's sole remaining "Engineer" who has an Oxbridge Classics degree.

I despair

J


Dave (G1OGY)
 

I have discovered the RSGB calculator (Tnx G0JJG)
It is far more comprehensive:

.


Dave, G1OGY


On Wed, 3 Mar 2021 at 17:37, militaryoperator via groups.io <Military1944=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
Input parameters
Transmitter power (EIRP)=    Watts ← Enter EIRP (Watts) in cell D5. EIRP (Watts) = ERP (Watts) x 1.64
----------------

Poor use of a spreadsheet. You have to manually calculate your power at ERP then x 1.64 then enter that. 
Its a spreadsheet, it calculates. Why not just folk to enter their power in Watts and ant gain, it can then do the calc. 

What about a random length of wire on hf? whats its ERP?

Ben


Neil Smith G4DBN
 

The RSGB front-end spreadsheet helps a lot, although not on 24 GHz up, and the gain it suggests for 10 GHz dishes is a bit suspect as well.

https://rsgb.services/public/publications/emc/emf-calculator-v0.1.1%20.rsgb.7b2.xlsx

Neil G4DBN


On 03/03/2021 17:37, militaryoperator via groups.io wrote:
Input parameters
Transmitter power (EIRP)=    Watts ← Enter EIRP (Watts) in cell D5. EIRP (Watts) = ERP (Watts) x 1.64
----------------

Poor use of a spreadsheet. You have to manually calculate your power at ERP then x 1.64 then enter that. 
Its a spreadsheet, it calculates. Why not just folk to enter their power in Watts and ant gain, it can then do the calc. 

What about a random length of wire on hf? whats its ERP?



Dave (G1OGY)
 

Ah! forgot to mention:
Note the "Custom" parameter in the Antenna Gain dropdown list; also note value should be in dBd.

Dave, G1OGY


On Wed, 3 Mar 2021 at 17:40, Dave (G1OGY) <g1ogy@...> wrote:
I have discovered the RSGB calculator (Tnx G0JJG)
It is far more comprehensive:

.


Dave, G1OGY


On Wed, 3 Mar 2021 at 17:37, militaryoperator via groups.io <Military1944=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
Input parameters
Transmitter power (EIRP)=    Watts ← Enter EIRP (Watts) in cell D5. EIRP (Watts) = ERP (Watts) x 1.64
----------------

Poor use of a spreadsheet. You have to manually calculate your power at ERP then x 1.64 then enter that. 
Its a spreadsheet, it calculates. Why not just folk to enter their power in Watts and ant gain, it can then do the calc. 

What about a random length of wire on hf? whats its ERP?

Ben


g4bao
 

OH, that's MUCH better. Nice one RSGB

Anyone any idea where you measure the separation distanced from an HF vertical from?

The base, the middle? the top, head height?..... Wath-upon-Dearne?


Stephen Tompsett
 

Pity the spreadsheet doesn't appear to work for me using either Excel 2007 (no drop down menus) , or the current version of LibreOffice (produces errore messages about password protection).

Yes I have reported my problems to the author as requested.

From inspection the 'Ofcom Separation Distance' doesn't appear to take any account of antenna gain/directivity. I really do hope that my horizontally mounted 23cm antenna directs it's radiation parallel to the ground.

On 03/03/2021 17:40, Dave (G1OGY) wrote:
I have discovered the RSGB calculator (Tnx G0JJG)
It is far more comprehensive:

.


Dave, G1OGY


On Wed, 3 Mar 2021 at 17:37, militaryoperator via groups.io <Military1944=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
Input parameters
Transmitter power (EIRP)=    Watts ← Enter EIRP (Watts) in cell D5. EIRP (Watts) = ERP (Watts) x 1.64
----------------

Poor use of a spreadsheet. You have to manually calculate your power at ERP then x 1.64 then enter that. 
Its a spreadsheet, it calculates. Why not just folk to enter their power in Watts and ant gain, it can then do the calc. 

What about a random length of wire on hf? whats its ERP?

Ben
-- 
Stephen Tompsett (G8LYB)
Tel: 01788 578940
Mob: 07956 855816


Neil Smith G4DBN
 

The point is that the distances generated are likely to be a considerable overestimate, and that is intentional.  Then you would need to do a proper assessment using the exposure factors, beam pattern etc to see what the actual fields are in areas accessible to humans. 

There are arguments about who constitutes "the public", and whether if you have a multi-op contest station, whether those who are not operating count as "the public".  All of which sounds like whingeing and barrack-room lawyering and special pleading.  It feels like a lot of folks have had a common-sense bypass fitted.

If the levels in accessible areas exceed the ICNIRP levels for the public but not for employees, then you need to decide if the other team members are employees.  If they are not, treat them as public for heaven's sake.

The choice of a not-backwards-compatioble spreadsheet for this is grim, but probably because some bean-counter will have decided that doing the job right with an accessible web page which is device/OS-agnostic just  isn't worth the candle, so we are stuck with it.  I wonder if it will import into Google sheets? Sorry I asked.

If you know the pattern of your antenna, sidelobes and all, it is very easy to calculate the maximum possible fields in human-accessible areas and compare those with the ICNIRP limits manually.

I've had two emails this evening from worried elderly ops who have received this message from Ofcom and don't know what it is about, because they aren't on forums, don't look at ham radio social meejah and aren't RSGB members, so I've put their minds at rest.

Neil G4DBN

On 03/03/2021 18:04, Stephen Tompsett wrote:

Pity the spreadsheet doesn't appear to work for me using either Excel 2007 (no drop down menus) , or the current version of LibreOffice (produces errore messages about password protection).

Yes I have reported my problems to the author as requested.

From inspection the 'Ofcom Separation Distance' doesn't appear to take any account of antenna gain/directivity. I really do hope that my horizontally mounted 23cm antenna directs it's radiation parallel to the ground.

On 03/03/2021 17:40, Dave (G1OGY) wrote:
I have discovered the RSGB calculator (Tnx G0JJG)
It is far more comprehensive:

.


Dave, G1OGY


On Wed, 3 Mar 2021 at 17:37, militaryoperator via groups.io <Military1944=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
Input parameters
Transmitter power (EIRP)=    Watts ← Enter EIRP (Watts) in cell D5. EIRP (Watts) = ERP (Watts) x 1.64
----------------

Poor use of a spreadsheet. You have to manually calculate your power at ERP then x 1.64 then enter that. 
Its a spreadsheet, it calculates. Why not just folk to enter their power in Watts and ant gain, it can then do the calc. 

What about a random length of wire on hf? whats its ERP?

Ben


John E. Beech
 

It was clear to me. You have got until April 18th 2021 to complain/offer suugestions etc. And in future there will be no
personal letters from them - you will either have to be clairvoyant or log on to their website "from time to time" - their
words which amounts to the same thing when you won't know what you are looking for because they haven't told you.
London Gazetteer? Does it still exist? ANyone read it?
Personally I'm inclined to ignore this latest from Ofcom. How are they going to police it? If it went to court they
would have to prove their case by making actual measurements to show emf values have been exceeded.

de John G8SEQ

-------Original Message-------
From: ian hope (2E0IJH) <ian@dr.com>
To: UKMicrowaves@groups.io <UKMicrowaves@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [UKMicrowaves] ICNIRP
Sent: Mar 03 '21 17:19

The letters about as clear as mud, but this is ofcom's calculator
https://www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/excel_doc/0021/214455/emf-calculator-v0.1.2.xlsx,
stick your details in here and note result

ian
M5IJH

SENT: Wednesday, March 03, 2021 at 5:14 PM
FROM: "Andy G4JNT" <andy.g4jnt@gmail.com>
TO: "UK Microwaves groups.io" <UKMicrowaves@groups.io>
SUBJECT: Re: [UKMicrowaves] ICNIRP

You read what they sent you, and note you don't do anything yet

Andy
www.g4jnt.com

On Wed, 3 Mar 2021 at 17:10, geoffrey pike via groups.io
<gi0gdp=yahoo.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:

> I have just received an e-mail from Ofcom telling me that i must
> observe the ICNIRP rules, so do i go to their
> website and fill in my details or what?
> cheers
> Geoff
> GI0GDP


Andy G4JNT
 

Likewise here




On Wed, 3 Mar 2021 at 19:32, John E. Beech <john@...> wrote:

         Personally I'm inclined to ignore this latest from Ofcom. How are they going to police it? If it went to court they
would have to prove their case by making actual measurements to show emf values have been exceeded.

de John G8SEQ


Dave (G1OGY)
 

Libre Office:
Tools | Options| | Load/Save

Untick "Save autorecovery information..."

Works `Just Fine` here in LO 7.0.3.1

Dave, G1OGY


On Wed, 3 Mar 2021 at 18:04, Stephen Tompsett <stephen@...> wrote:

Pity the spreadsheet doesn't appear to work for me using either Excel 2007 (no drop down menus) , or the current version of LibreOffice (produces errore messages about password protection).

Yes I have reported my problems to the author as requested.

From inspection the 'Ofcom Separation Distance' doesn't appear to take any account of antenna gain/directivity. I really do hope that my horizontally mounted 23cm antenna directs it's radiation parallel to the ground.

On 03/03/2021 17:40, Dave (G1OGY) wrote:
I have discovered the RSGB calculator (Tnx G0JJG)
It is far more comprehensive:

.


Dave, G1OGY


On Wed, 3 Mar 2021 at 17:37, militaryoperator via groups.io <Military1944=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:
Input parameters
Transmitter power (EIRP)=    Watts ← Enter EIRP (Watts) in cell D5. EIRP (Watts) = ERP (Watts) x 1.64
----------------

Poor use of a spreadsheet. You have to manually calculate your power at ERP then x 1.64 then enter that. 
Its a spreadsheet, it calculates. Why not just folk to enter their power in Watts and ant gain, it can then do the calc. 

What about a random length of wire on hf? whats its ERP?

Ben
-- 
Stephen Tompsett (G8LYB)
Tel: 01788 578940
Mob: 07956 855816


Colin Ranson
 

I tend to agree with John, G3SEQ.... just give them some input to keep them happy. Anyway who’s going to look at it when they do get it ? and like John said, who’s going to police it ?  

 

Personally I’m too old to worry about such things.

 

 

Colin de G8LBS.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: John E. Beech
Sent: 03 March 2021 19:32
To: UKMicrowaves@groups.io
Subject: Re: [UKMicrowaves] ICNIRP

 

It was clear to me. You have got until April 18th 2021 to complain/offer suugestions etc. And in future there will be no
personal letters from them - you will either have to be clairvoyant or log on to their website "from time to time" - their
words which amounts to the same thing when you won't know what you are looking for because they haven't told you.
London Gazetteer? Does it still exist? ANyone read it?
         Personally I'm inclined to ignore this latest from Ofcom. How are they going to police it? If it went to court they
would have to prove their case by making actual measurements to show emf values have been exceeded.

de John G8SEQ

>  -------Original Message-------
>  From: ian hope (2E0IJH) <ian@...>
>  To: UKMicrowaves@groups.io <UKMicrowaves@groups.io>
>  Subject: Re: [UKMicrowaves] ICNIRP
>  Sent: Mar 03 '21 17:19

>  The letters about as clear as mud, but this is ofcom's calculator
https://www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/excel_doc/0021/214455/emf-calculator-v0.1.2.xlsx,
>  stick your details in here and note result

>  ian
>  M5IJH

>  SENT: Wednesday, March 03, 2021 at 5:14 PM
>  FROM: "Andy G4JNT" <andy.g4jnt@...>
>  TO: "UK Microwaves groups.io" <UKMicrowaves@groups.io>
>  SUBJECT: Re: [UKMicrowaves] ICNIRP

>  You read what they sent you, and note you don't do anything yet

>  Andy
www.g4jnt.com

>  On Wed, 3 Mar 2021 at 17:10, geoffrey pike via groups.io
>  <gi0gdp@...> wrote:

>  > I have just received an e-mail from Ofcom telling me that i must
>  > observe the ICNIRP rules, so do i go to their
>  > website and fill in my details or what?
>  > cheers
>  > Geoff
>  > GI0GDP






 


Graham G3VKV
 

I have used this one for a long while, if it works in VK land using ICNIRP data then should be OK here
VK3UM downloads (vk5dj.com)
EMRcalc
Graham G3VKV


Robin Szemeti - G1YFG
 

It is on my "to do" list, right after "paper the lawn" and "paint the road"

I've worked on sites with "medium" RF levels, like Droitwich.    When pigeons land on the insulators of the open wire feeder to the LF aerial, the arc detector in the field briefly turns the transmitter off to clear the arc and then fires up again. 

That is now my standard test. If it is loud enough to fry pigeons, I'll worry about it.


On Wed, 3 Mar 2021 at 22:51, Graham G3VKV via groups.io <g3vkv=btinternet.com@groups.io> wrote:
I have used this one for a long while, if it works in VK land using ICNIRP data then should be OK here
VK3UM downloads (vk5dj.com)
EMRcalc
Graham G3VKV


--
Robin Szemeti - G1YFG