I take your point Conrad,
                                     It seems to me that the points system is at fault with the UKAC contests. Scoring is the same
for VHF NFD and UKAC ie 1 point per kilometre. It is the bonus system that skews the results in favour of central
stations. East coast stations north of Essex are at the most disadvantaged because there is a non-scoring wet square to
their east, unless contacts with /MM stations are available ( not likely). This might also apply to GI stations. Perhaps 100
points for the four adjacent squares & then 500 for any squares beyond that would work better, but this is starting to
look like 50 k radius rings, but it would bring into play inactive wet squares for Midlands stations. Or maybe just dump
the bonus system?

de John G8SEQ

>  -------Original Message-------
>  From: Conrad, PA5Y <g0ruz@...>
>  To: UKMicrowaves@groups.io <UKMicrowaves@groups.io>
>  Subject: Re: [UKMicrowaves] Contesting was Condx
>  Sent: Jan 21 '21 18:13
> 
>  Hi John.
> 
>  We were talking about the UKAC and the 500 pts per square bonus. VHF NFD is a very different animal. It is points
per km and the closer you are to the SE coast the better off you will be. That is because it is very well supported in PA,
ON, DL, OK etc.
> 
>  Completely different and your findings do not surprise me at all.
> 
>  I will say it again, the guys on the SE coast are not winning the UKAC. There are 2 stations in IO92 that do
consistently well and 3 in IO74. The rules are better for UK activity.
> 
>  73
> 
>  Conrad
> 

Replying to John and Robin together...

There are several fallacies here. The biggest and most common is the 'leading stations fallacy' - the assumption that a few top scorers are representative of what can be achieved by other people. That is not true, but also hard to kill.

The attached map is useful because it combines the UK terrain with the same 2x1deg 'squares' that we use for locators. I do well in the UKACs because I am the most southerly active station in Scotland (south of Carlisle!). Everyone else has to get over the Southern Uplands to work England at all. Even from this good QTH, most of my QSOs are at S5 or less, so GMs further north have a much harder time.

Please, look at that map and remember it.

As for me, I know my place in the results tables. Normally G4CLA is out ahead with no competition at all, and I am somewhere in the chasing pack. The only way I can ever reach the top of the table is if the people who normally beat me are away, or if something goes wrong for them... which rather blunts the satisfaction of having 'won'. It happened in this month's 2m UKAC but that is only the second time ever. All the rest of the time, I turn up and do the business for other reasons: to keep on improving and testing my station, to try and keep myself sharp, and to say hello to friends old and new.

As for bonuses, I must ask if John really meant to write that the squares adjacent to IO74 "have relatively
large populations in them"? Of the 8 adjacent squares, I normally work only 4 or 5. 6 is unusual and I don't recall ever working all 8.

Finally, some VHFCC history. Points/km scoring originated with RSGB in the late 1960s because it provided a balance between the 'quantity versus quality' of the QSOs made. Points/km achieves that balance because, writing it a different way,
        (total score) = (number of QSOs) x (average distance).
It was also recognised from the outset that rewarding long-distance contacts always helps to spread the activity out across the UK.

Radial ring scoring was a minor historical footnote. It was originally introduced because most people didn't have computers at that time. We bought maps from RSGB and drew circles on them. However, that was always seen as a  workaround, and within a few years it was no longer needed.

73 from Ian GM3SEK

On 22/01/2021 11:17, John E. Beech wrote:

Probably because GR3SEK is a fictional station and all his/her contacts are fiction too! I assume that was a typo and you 
meant G3SEK aka GM3SEK. The same comments apply to him and GD stations who are in the same square. Ian's square 
does not have any completely wet ( ie. inactive)  square adjacent to him & the ones that are adjacent have relatively 
large populations in them.

de John G8SEQ

 -------Original Message-------
 From: Robin Szemeti - G1YFG <robin@...>
 To: UKMicrowaves@groups.io <UKMicrowaves@groups.io>
 Subject: Re: [UKMicrowaves] Contesting was Condx
 Sent: Jan 22 '21 00:45
 
 You say the bonus system skews the results in favour of central
 stations ... so tell me again why GR3SEK
 
 won the open section this month? The GD stations always do well etc .
 
 Without the squares bonus, I would tend to point the antenna in the
 direction of best unworked density. For me, that would mean mostly SE,
 mopping up between E and S when I had worked most of it. The
 squares/countries encourages me to try for the PA, E, GD and GM .. and
 spend time pointing at Cornwall to see if I will be lucky.
 
 On Thu, 21 Jan 2021 at 19:34, John E. Beech <john@...> wrote:
 
 > I take your point Conrad,
 > It seems to me that the points system is at fault with the UKAC
 > contests. Scoring is the same
 > for VHF NFD and UKAC ie 1 point per kilometre. It is the bonus
 > system that skews the results in favour of central
 > stations. East coast stations north of Essex are at the most
 > disadvantaged because there is a non-scoring wet square to
 > their east, unless contacts with /MM stations are available ( not
 > likely). This might also apply to GI stations. Perhaps 100
 > points for the four adjacent squares & then 500 for any squares
 > beyond that would work better, but this is starting to
 > look like 50 k radius rings, but it would bring into play inactive
 > wet squares for Midlands stations. Or maybe just dump
 > the bonus system?
 >
 > de John G8SEQ
 >
 >> -------Original Message-------
 >> From: Conrad, PA5Y <g0ruz@...>
 >> To: UKMicrowaves@groups.io <UKMicrowaves@groups.io>
 >> Subject: Re: [UKMicrowaves] Contesting was Condx
 >> Sent: Jan 21 '21 18:13
 >>
 >> Hi John.
 >>
 >> We were talking about the UKAC and the 500 pts per square bonus.
 > VHF NFD is a very different animal. It is points
 > per km and the closer you are to the SE coast the better off you
 > will be. That is because it is very well supported in PA,
 > ON, DL, OK etc.
 >>
 >> Completely different and your findings do not surprise me at all.
 >>
 >> I will say it again, the guys on the SE coast are not winning the
 > UKAC. There are 2 stations in IO92 that do
 > consistently well and 3 in IO74. The rules are better for UK
 > activity.
 >>
 >> 73
 >>
 >> Conrad
 >>
 
 --
 Robin Szemeti - G1YFG
 

Hi Ian,

Ah ,I thought you were on our favorite West GM Island of Mull , but if South of Carlisle you must be On the Mull of Galloway - much better for G .

I agree with your observations .

When operating 70MHz contests in the early 2000 era as G4RFR , IO90AS , we were only 30m asl but central on South Coast , with a fixed 60ft mast and a pair of 12 el NBS Yagis .Add in a single 4CX250 and a half decent TVTR + 940 rig and it all went well (mostly) .My shack wall has nearly 20 certificates for 1st/2nd places in both fixed and VHF NFD .Most of GM was regularly worked , with only 200miles East /West needed - a lot worked off the rear /sides of the stacked pair.

Position in those days was everything , as all the 70MHz activity was restricted to G/EI/ZB /Cyprus .

As soon as EU came on stream , this all shifted the leading stations towards the Midlands or far West .

This still does not mean that putting the effort in is not rewarded - 10GHz EME being a particular challenge .

A  10GHz beacon on the Mull would be good !

73John

G0API

On Fri, 22 Jan 2021 at 15:53, Ian White <gm3sek@...> wrote:

Replying to John and Robin together...

There are several fallacies here. The biggest and most common is the 'leading stations fallacy' - the assumption that a few top scorers are representative of what can be achieved by other people. That is not true, but also hard to kill.

The attached map is useful because it combines the UK terrain with the same 2x1deg 'squares' that we use for locators. I do well in the UKACs because I am the most southerly active station in Scotland (south of Carlisle!). Everyone else has to get over the Southern Uplands to work England at all. Even from this good QTH, most of my QSOs are at S5 or less, so GMs further north have a much harder time.

Please, look at that map and remember it.

As for me, I know my place in the results tables. Normally G4CLA is out ahead with no competition at all, and I am somewhere in the chasing pack. The only way I can ever reach the top of the table is if the people who normally beat me are away, or if something goes wrong for them... which rather blunts the satisfaction of having 'won'. It happened in this month's 2m UKAC but that is only the second time ever. All the rest of the time, I turn up and do the business for other reasons: to keep on improving and testing my station, to try and keep myself sharp, and to say hello to friends old and new.

As for bonuses, I must ask if John really meant to write that the squares adjacent to IO74 "have relatively
large populations in them"? Of the 8 adjacent squares, I normally work only 4 or 5. 6 is unusual and I don't recall ever working all 8.

Finally, some VHFCC history. Points/km scoring originated with RSGB in the late 1960s because it provided a balance between the 'quantity versus quality' of the QSOs made. Points/km achieves that balance because, writing it a different way,
        (total score) = (number of QSOs) x (average distance).
It was also recognised from the outset that rewarding long-distance contacts always helps to spread the activity out across the UK.

Radial ring scoring was a minor historical footnote. It was originally introduced because most people didn't have computers at that time. We bought maps from RSGB and drew circles on them. However, that was always seen as a  workaround, and within a few years it was no longer needed.

73 from Ian GM3SEK

On 22/01/2021 11:17, John E. Beech wrote:

Probably because GR3SEK is a fictional station and all his/her contacts are fiction too! I assume that was a typo and you 
meant G3SEK aka GM3SEK. The same comments apply to him and GD stations who are in the same square. Ian's square 
does not have any completely wet ( ie. inactive)  square adjacent to him & the ones that are adjacent have relatively 
large populations in them.

de John G8SEQ

 -------Original Message-------
 From: Robin Szemeti - G1YFG <robin@...>
 To: UKMicrowaves@groups.io <UKMicrowaves@groups.io>
 Subject: Re: [UKMicrowaves] Contesting was Condx
 Sent: Jan 22 '21 00:45
 
 You say the bonus system skews the results in favour of central
 stations ... so tell me again why GR3SEK
 
 won the open section this month? The GD stations always do well etc .
 
 Without the squares bonus, I would tend to point the antenna in the
 direction of best unworked density. For me, that would mean mostly SE,
 mopping up between E and S when I had worked most of it. The
 squares/countries encourages me to try for the PA, E, GD and GM .. and
 spend time pointing at Cornwall to see if I will be lucky.
 
 On Thu, 21 Jan 2021 at 19:34, John E. Beech <john@...> wrote:
 
 > I take your point Conrad,
 > It seems to me that the points system is at fault with the UKAC
 > contests. Scoring is the same
 > for VHF NFD and UKAC ie 1 point per kilometre. It is the bonus
 > system that skews the results in favour of central
 > stations. East coast stations north of Essex are at the most
 > disadvantaged because there is a non-scoring wet square to
 > their east, unless contacts with /MM stations are available ( not
 > likely). This might also apply to GI stations. Perhaps 100
 > points for the four adjacent squares & then 500 for any squares
 > beyond that would work better, but this is starting to
 > look like 50 k radius rings, but it would bring into play inactive
 > wet squares for Midlands stations. Or maybe just dump
 > the bonus system?
 >
 > de John G8SEQ
 >
 >> -------Original Message-------
 >> From: Conrad, PA5Y <g0ruz@...>
 >> To: UKMicrowaves@groups.io <UKMicrowaves@groups.io>
 >> Subject: Re: [UKMicrowaves] Contesting was Condx
 >> Sent: Jan 21 '21 18:13
 >>
 >> Hi John.
 >>
 >> We were talking about the UKAC and the 500 pts per square bonus.
 > VHF NFD is a very different animal. It is points
 > per km and the closer you are to the SE coast the better off you
 > will be. That is because it is very well supported in PA,
 > ON, DL, OK etc.
 >>
 >> Completely different and your findings do not surprise me at all.
 >>
 >> I will say it again, the guys on the SE coast are not winning the
 > UKAC. There are 2 stations in IO92 that do
 > consistently well and 3 in IO74. The rules are better for UK
 > activity.
 >>
 >> 73
 >>
 >> Conrad
 >>
 
 --
 Robin Szemeti - G1YFG
 

On 22/01/2021 16:23, John Fell wrote:

Hi Ian,

Ah ,I thought you were on our favorite West GM Island of Mull , but if South of Carlisle you must be On the Mull of Galloway - much better for G .

It's Roger GM4PMK who is on the Isle of Mull - and has just reappeared on 4m, by the way.

I am not on the Mull of Galloway, but on the next peninsula east - for those with long memories, "15km *east* of Scares" - which actually has a better sea path for most of G.

We have thought of a 10GHz beacon locally but it would need to serve both G and GM, and none of our sites is quite suitable.

73 from Ian GM3SEK