Topics

Contesting was Condx


John E. Beech
 

With reference to Conrads comment below about being in the middle of England to win we found the opposite.
Many years ago our contest group, Three Spires did a statistical survey of points scored of all the stations that
entered VHF NFD over several years. The analysis showed that teams sited in the middle of England were severely
disadvantaged because the majority of stations worked were nearby. The winning stations were usually sited on the East
Coast of England because they scored more points for stations in the rest of UK and had access to the continent and
were more likely to have ducting over the sea.
After that survey we stopped using our Warwickshire site and tried Cadwell Park, Isle of Sheppy and the
Quantocks (to be as far away as possible from rest of UK and continent) & still be easy to get to from Coventry. We also
tried a site on the Welsh border for same reasons. We did operate once or twice from Dunstable Downs when we joined
forces with the Aeriel Group (BBC)
We entered the open section with high gain beam antennas AND omnidirectional antennas for some bands, the
theory being as we were running high power it would keep the rest of the UK of "our" frequency & we could hear them
calling us while still beaming power towards the dx.
Later after the group disbanded we formed CARSCOG and operated in the restricted section with single
antennas so I opted for all omni antennas.
Nowadays I only appear in contests to give away points but you have got to work for them because I only run
QRP.

I think at the time of our survey scoring was in 50 km radius circles, so if you were where we were(Coventry
Area) nearly everything you work ie the Midlands was worth only one point. Later when they introduced 6m that skewed
everything and you could win a contest on 6m alone scores if there was an Es opening provided you put an entry in on
the other bands. 4m didn't have this effect as only UK, NI, Eire, Gibraltar, Cyprus and Iceland had access to 4m & it was
rare to work the latter three & not many people had 4m Equipment in UK or Ireland.
I think points per kilometre was an attempt to rectify this imbalance.

I have an idea to make contests more interesting and closer to the original purpose of VHF NFD which could
also work on UHF/SHF band contests. But I'm not going into that now - got to cook dinner!

de John G8SEQ

-------Original Message-------
From: Conrad, PA5Y <g0ruz@g0ruz.com>
To: UKMicrowaves@groups.io <UKMicrowaves@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [UKMicrowaves] Condx
Sent: Jan 20 '21 22:12
The best place to be is in the
middle. I don’t see any SE UK stations winning it. That was in the
old days.


Conrad, PA5Y
 

Hi John.

We were talking about the UKAC and the 500 pts per square bonus. VHF NFD is a very different animal. It is points per km and the closer you are to the SE coast the better off you will be. That is because it is very well supported in PA, ON, DL, OK etc.

Completely different and your findings do not surprise me at all.

I will say it again, the guys on the SE coast are not winning the UKAC. There are 2 stations in IO92 that do consistently well and 3 in IO74. The rules are better for UK activity.

73

Conrad

-----Original Message-----
From: UKMicrowaves@groups.io <UKMicrowaves@groups.io> On Behalf Of John E. Beech via groups.io
Sent: 21 January 2021 18:49
To: UKMicrowaves@groups.io
Subject: [UKMicrowaves] Contesting was Condx

With reference to Conrads comment below about being in the middle of England to win we found the opposite.
Many years ago our contest group, Three Spires did a statistical survey of points scored of all the stations that entered VHF NFD over several years. The analysis showed that teams sited in the middle of England were severely disadvantaged because the majority of stations worked were nearby. The winning stations were usually sited on the East Coast of England because they scored more points for stations in the rest of UK and had access to the continent and were more likely to have ducting over the sea.
After that survey we stopped using our Warwickshire site and tried Cadwell Park, Isle of Sheppy and the Quantocks (to be as far away as possible from rest of UK and continent) & still be easy to get to from Coventry. We also tried a site on the Welsh border for same reasons. We did operate once or twice from Dunstable Downs when we joined forces with the Aeriel Group (BBC)
We entered the open section with high gain beam antennas AND omnidirectional antennas for some bands, the theory being as we were running high power it would keep the rest of the UK of "our" frequency & we could hear them calling us while still beaming power towards the dx.
Later after the group disbanded we formed CARSCOG and operated in the restricted section with single antennas so I opted for all omni antennas.
Nowadays I only appear in contests to give away points but you have got to work for them because I only run QRP.

I think at the time of our survey scoring was in 50 km radius circles, so if you were where we were(Coventry
Area) nearly everything you work ie the Midlands was worth only one point. Later when they introduced 6m that skewed everything and you could win a contest on 6m alone scores if there was an Es opening provided you put an entry in on the other bands. 4m didn't have this effect as only UK, NI, Eire, Gibraltar, Cyprus and Iceland had access to 4m & it was rare to work the latter three & not many people had 4m Equipment in UK or Ireland.
I think points per kilometre was an attempt to rectify this imbalance.

I have an idea to make contests more interesting and closer to the original purpose of VHF NFD which could also work on UHF/SHF band contests. But I'm not going into that now - got to cook dinner!

de John G8SEQ


-------Original Message-------
From: Conrad, PA5Y <g0ruz@g0ruz.com>
To: UKMicrowaves@groups.io <UKMicrowaves@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [UKMicrowaves] Condx
Sent: Jan 20 '21 22:12
The best place to be is in the
middle. I don’t see any SE UK stations winning it. That was in the
old days.


John E. Beech
 

I take your point Conrad,
It seems to me that the points system is at fault with the UKAC contests. Scoring is the same
for VHF NFD and UKAC ie 1 point per kilometre. It is the bonus system that skews the results in favour of central
stations. East coast stations north of Essex are at the most disadvantaged because there is a non-scoring wet square to
their east, unless contacts with /MM stations are available ( not likely). This might also apply to GI stations. Perhaps 100
points for the four adjacent squares & then 500 for any squares beyond that would work better, but this is starting to
look like 50 k radius rings, but it would bring into play inactive wet squares for Midlands stations. Or maybe just dump
the bonus system?

de John G8SEQ

-------Original Message-------
From: Conrad, PA5Y <g0ruz@g0ruz.com>
To: UKMicrowaves@groups.io <UKMicrowaves@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [UKMicrowaves] Contesting was Condx
Sent: Jan 21 '21 18:13

Hi John.

We were talking about the UKAC and the 500 pts per square bonus. VHF NFD is a very different animal. It is points
per km and the closer you are to the SE coast the better off you will be. That is because it is very well supported in PA,
ON, DL, OK etc.

Completely different and your findings do not surprise me at all.

I will say it again, the guys on the SE coast are not winning the UKAC. There are 2 stations in IO92 that do
consistently well and 3 in IO74. The rules are better for UK activity.

73

Conrad


Robin Szemeti - G1YFG
 

You say the bonus system skews the results in favour of central stations ... so tell me again why GR3SEK
 won the open section this month?  The GD stations always do well etc .

Without the squares bonus, I would tend to point the antenna in the direction of best unworked density. For me, that would mean mostly SE, mopping up between  E and S when I had worked most of it. The squares/countries encourages me to try for the PA, E, GD and GM  .. and spend time pointing at Cornwall to see if I will be lucky.

On Thu, 21 Jan 2021 at 19:34, John E. Beech <john@...> wrote:
I take your point Conrad,
                                     It seems to me that the points system is at fault with the UKAC contests. Scoring is the same
for VHF NFD and UKAC ie 1 point per kilometre. It is the bonus system that skews the results in favour of central
stations. East coast stations north of Essex are at the most disadvantaged because there is a non-scoring wet square to
their east, unless contacts with /MM stations are available ( not likely). This might also apply to GI stations. Perhaps 100
points for the four adjacent squares & then 500 for any squares beyond that would work better, but this is starting to
look like 50 k radius rings, but it would bring into play inactive wet squares for Midlands stations. Or maybe just dump
the bonus system?

de John G8SEQ

>  -------Original Message-------
>  From: Conrad, PA5Y <g0ruz@...>
>  To: UKMicrowaves@groups.io <UKMicrowaves@groups.io>
>  Subject: Re: [UKMicrowaves] Contesting was Condx
>  Sent: Jan 21 '21 18:13

>  Hi John.

>  We were talking about the UKAC and the 500 pts per square bonus. VHF NFD is a very different animal. It is points
per km and the closer you are to the SE coast the better off you will be. That is because it is very well supported in PA,
ON, DL, OK etc.

>  Completely different and your findings do not surprise me at all.

>  I will say it again, the guys on the SE coast are not winning the UKAC. There are 2 stations in IO92 that do
consistently well and 3 in IO74. The rules are better for UK activity.

>  73

>  Conrad







--
Robin Szemeti - G1YFG


John E. Beech
 

Probably because GR3SEK is a fictional station and all his/her contacts are fiction too! I assume that was a typo and you
meant G3SEK aka GM3SEK. The same comments apply to him and GD stations who are in the same square. Ian's square
does not have any completely wet ( ie. inactive) square adjacent to him & the ones that are adjacent have relatively
large populations in them.

de John G8SEQ

-------Original Message-------
From: Robin Szemeti - G1YFG <robin@redpoint.org.uk>
To: UKMicrowaves@groups.io <UKMicrowaves@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [UKMicrowaves] Contesting was Condx
Sent: Jan 22 '21 00:45

You say the bonus system skews the results in favour of central
stations ... so tell me again why GR3SEK

won the open section this month? The GD stations always do well etc .

Without the squares bonus, I would tend to point the antenna in the
direction of best unworked density. For me, that would mean mostly SE,
mopping up between E and S when I had worked most of it. The
squares/countries encourages me to try for the PA, E, GD and GM .. and
spend time pointing at Cornwall to see if I will be lucky.

On Thu, 21 Jan 2021 at 19:34, John E. Beech <john@g8seq.com> wrote:

> I take your point Conrad,
> It seems to me that the points system is at fault with the UKAC
> contests. Scoring is the same
> for VHF NFD and UKAC ie 1 point per kilometre. It is the bonus
> system that skews the results in favour of central
> stations. East coast stations north of Essex are at the most
> disadvantaged because there is a non-scoring wet square to
> their east, unless contacts with /MM stations are available ( not
> likely). This might also apply to GI stations. Perhaps 100
> points for the four adjacent squares & then 500 for any squares
> beyond that would work better, but this is starting to
> look like 50 k radius rings, but it would bring into play inactive
> wet squares for Midlands stations. Or maybe just dump
> the bonus system?
>
> de John G8SEQ
>
>> -------Original Message-------
>> From: Conrad, PA5Y <g0ruz@g0ruz.com>
>> To: UKMicrowaves@groups.io <UKMicrowaves@groups.io>
>> Subject: Re: [UKMicrowaves] Contesting was Condx
>> Sent: Jan 21 '21 18:13
>>
>> Hi John.
>>
>> We were talking about the UKAC and the 500 pts per square bonus.
> VHF NFD is a very different animal. It is points
> per km and the closer you are to the SE coast the better off you
> will be. That is because it is very well supported in PA,
> ON, DL, OK etc.
>>
>> Completely different and your findings do not surprise me at all.
>>
>> I will say it again, the guys on the SE coast are not winning the
> UKAC. There are 2 stations in IO92 that do
> consistently well and 3 in IO74. The rules are better for UK
> activity.
>>
>> 73
>>
>> Conrad
>>

--
Robin Szemeti - G1YFG


Ian White
 

Replying to John and Robin together...

There are several fallacies here. The biggest and most common is the 'leading stations fallacy' - the assumption that a few top scorers are representative of what can be achieved by other people. That is not true, but also hard to kill.

The attached map is useful because it combines the UK terrain with the same 2x1deg 'squares' that we use for locators. I do well in the UKACs because I am the most southerly active station in Scotland (south of Carlisle!). Everyone else has to get over the Southern Uplands to work England at all. Even from this good QTH, most of my QSOs are at S5 or less, so GMs further north have a much harder time.

Please, look at that map and remember it.

As for me, I know my place in the results tables. Normally G4CLA is out ahead with no competition at all, and I am somewhere in the chasing pack. The only way I can ever reach the top of the table is if the people who normally beat me are away, or if something goes wrong for them... which rather blunts the satisfaction of having 'won'. It happened in this month's 2m UKAC but that is only the second time ever. All the rest of the time, I turn up and do the business for other reasons: to keep on improving and testing my station, to try and keep myself sharp, and to say hello to friends old and new.

As for bonuses, I must ask if John really meant to write that the squares adjacent to IO74 "have relatively
large populations in them"? Of the 8 adjacent squares, I normally work only 4 or 5. 6 is unusual and I don't recall ever working all 8.

Finally, some VHFCC history. Points/km scoring originated with RSGB in the late 1960s because it provided a balance between the 'quantity versus quality' of the QSOs made. Points/km achieves that balance because, writing it a different way,
        (total score) = (number of QSOs) x (average distance).
It was also recognised from the outset that rewarding long-distance contacts always helps to spread the activity out across the UK.

Radial ring scoring was a minor historical footnote. It was originally introduced because most people didn't have computers at that time. We bought maps from RSGB and drew circles on them. However, that was always seen as a  workaround, and within a few years it was no longer needed.

73 from Ian GM3SEK


On 22/01/2021 11:17, John E. Beech wrote:

Probably because GR3SEK is a fictional station and all his/her contacts are fiction too! I assume that was a typo and you 
meant G3SEK aka GM3SEK. The same comments apply to him and GD stations who are in the same square. Ian's square 
does not have any completely wet ( ie. inactive)  square adjacent to him & the ones that are adjacent have relatively 
large populations in them.

de John G8SEQ

 -------Original Message-------
 From: Robin Szemeti - G1YFG <robin@...>
 To: UKMicrowaves@groups.io <UKMicrowaves@groups.io>
 Subject: Re: [UKMicrowaves] Contesting was Condx
 Sent: Jan 22 '21 00:45
 
 You say the bonus system skews the results in favour of central
 stations ... so tell me again why GR3SEK
 
 won the open section this month? The GD stations always do well etc .
 
 Without the squares bonus, I would tend to point the antenna in the
 direction of best unworked density. For me, that would mean mostly SE,
 mopping up between E and S when I had worked most of it. The
 squares/countries encourages me to try for the PA, E, GD and GM .. and
 spend time pointing at Cornwall to see if I will be lucky.
 
 On Thu, 21 Jan 2021 at 19:34, John E. Beech <john@...> wrote:
 
 > I take your point Conrad,
 > It seems to me that the points system is at fault with the UKAC
 > contests. Scoring is the same
 > for VHF NFD and UKAC ie 1 point per kilometre. It is the bonus
 > system that skews the results in favour of central
 > stations. East coast stations north of Essex are at the most
 > disadvantaged because there is a non-scoring wet square to
 > their east, unless contacts with /MM stations are available ( not
 > likely). This might also apply to GI stations. Perhaps 100
 > points for the four adjacent squares & then 500 for any squares
 > beyond that would work better, but this is starting to
 > look like 50 k radius rings, but it would bring into play inactive
 > wet squares for Midlands stations. Or maybe just dump
 > the bonus system?
 >
 > de John G8SEQ
 >
 >> -------Original Message-------
 >> From: Conrad, PA5Y <g0ruz@...>
 >> To: UKMicrowaves@groups.io <UKMicrowaves@groups.io>
 >> Subject: Re: [UKMicrowaves] Contesting was Condx
 >> Sent: Jan 21 '21 18:13
 >>
 >> Hi John.
 >>
 >> We were talking about the UKAC and the 500 pts per square bonus.
 > VHF NFD is a very different animal. It is points
 > per km and the closer you are to the SE coast the better off you
 > will be. That is because it is very well supported in PA,
 > ON, DL, OK etc.
 >>
 >> Completely different and your findings do not surprise me at all.
 >>
 >> I will say it again, the guys on the SE coast are not winning the
 > UKAC. There are 2 stations in IO92 that do
 > consistently well and 3 in IO74. The rules are better for UK
 > activity.
 >>
 >> 73
 >>
 >> Conrad
 >>
 
 --
 Robin Szemeti - G1YFG
 




John Fell
 

Hi Ian,
Ah ,I thought you were on our favorite West GM Island of Mull , but if South of Carlisle you must be On the Mull of Galloway - much better for G .

I agree with your observations .

When operating 70MHz contests in the early 2000 era as G4RFR , IO90AS , we were only 30m asl but central on South Coast , with a fixed 60ft mast and a pair of 12 el NBS Yagis .Add in a single 4CX250 and a half decent TVTR + 940 rig and it all went well (mostly) .My shack wall has nearly 20 certificates for 1st/2nd places in both fixed and VHF NFD .Most of GM was regularly worked , with only 200miles East /West needed - a lot worked off the rear /sides of the stacked pair.

Position in those days was everything , as all the 70MHz activity was restricted to G/EI/ZB /Cyprus .

As soon as EU came on stream , this all shifted the leading stations towards the Midlands or far West .
This still does not mean that putting the effort in is not rewarded - 10GHz EME being a particular challenge .

A  10GHz beacon on the Mull would be good !

73John
G0API

On Fri, 22 Jan 2021 at 15:53, Ian White <gm3sek@...> wrote:

Replying to John and Robin together...

There are several fallacies here. The biggest and most common is the 'leading stations fallacy' - the assumption that a few top scorers are representative of what can be achieved by other people. That is not true, but also hard to kill.

The attached map is useful because it combines the UK terrain with the same 2x1deg 'squares' that we use for locators. I do well in the UKACs because I am the most southerly active station in Scotland (south of Carlisle!). Everyone else has to get over the Southern Uplands to work England at all. Even from this good QTH, most of my QSOs are at S5 or less, so GMs further north have a much harder time.

Please, look at that map and remember it.

As for me, I know my place in the results tables. Normally G4CLA is out ahead with no competition at all, and I am somewhere in the chasing pack. The only way I can ever reach the top of the table is if the people who normally beat me are away, or if something goes wrong for them... which rather blunts the satisfaction of having 'won'. It happened in this month's 2m UKAC but that is only the second time ever. All the rest of the time, I turn up and do the business for other reasons: to keep on improving and testing my station, to try and keep myself sharp, and to say hello to friends old and new.

As for bonuses, I must ask if John really meant to write that the squares adjacent to IO74 "have relatively
large populations in them"? Of the 8 adjacent squares, I normally work only 4 or 5. 6 is unusual and I don't recall ever working all 8.

Finally, some VHFCC history. Points/km scoring originated with RSGB in the late 1960s because it provided a balance between the 'quantity versus quality' of the QSOs made. Points/km achieves that balance because, writing it a different way,
        (total score) = (number of QSOs) x (average distance).
It was also recognised from the outset that rewarding long-distance contacts always helps to spread the activity out across the UK.

Radial ring scoring was a minor historical footnote. It was originally introduced because most people didn't have computers at that time. We bought maps from RSGB and drew circles on them. However, that was always seen as a  workaround, and within a few years it was no longer needed.

73 from Ian GM3SEK


On 22/01/2021 11:17, John E. Beech wrote:

Probably because GR3SEK is a fictional station and all his/her contacts are fiction too! I assume that was a typo and you 
meant G3SEK aka GM3SEK. The same comments apply to him and GD stations who are in the same square. Ian's square 
does not have any completely wet ( ie. inactive)  square adjacent to him & the ones that are adjacent have relatively 
large populations in them.

de John G8SEQ

 -------Original Message-------
 From: Robin Szemeti - G1YFG <robin@...>
 To: UKMicrowaves@groups.io <UKMicrowaves@groups.io>
 Subject: Re: [UKMicrowaves] Contesting was Condx
 Sent: Jan 22 '21 00:45
 
 You say the bonus system skews the results in favour of central
 stations ... so tell me again why GR3SEK
 
 won the open section this month? The GD stations always do well etc .
 
 Without the squares bonus, I would tend to point the antenna in the
 direction of best unworked density. For me, that would mean mostly SE,
 mopping up between E and S when I had worked most of it. The
 squares/countries encourages me to try for the PA, E, GD and GM .. and
 spend time pointing at Cornwall to see if I will be lucky.
 
 On Thu, 21 Jan 2021 at 19:34, John E. Beech <john@...> wrote:
 
 > I take your point Conrad,
 > It seems to me that the points system is at fault with the UKAC
 > contests. Scoring is the same
 > for VHF NFD and UKAC ie 1 point per kilometre. It is the bonus
 > system that skews the results in favour of central
 > stations. East coast stations north of Essex are at the most
 > disadvantaged because there is a non-scoring wet square to
 > their east, unless contacts with /MM stations are available ( not
 > likely). This might also apply to GI stations. Perhaps 100
 > points for the four adjacent squares & then 500 for any squares
 > beyond that would work better, but this is starting to
 > look like 50 k radius rings, but it would bring into play inactive
 > wet squares for Midlands stations. Or maybe just dump
 > the bonus system?
 >
 > de John G8SEQ
 >
 >> -------Original Message-------
 >> From: Conrad, PA5Y <g0ruz@...>
 >> To: UKMicrowaves@groups.io <UKMicrowaves@groups.io>
 >> Subject: Re: [UKMicrowaves] Contesting was Condx
 >> Sent: Jan 21 '21 18:13
 >>
 >> Hi John.
 >>
 >> We were talking about the UKAC and the 500 pts per square bonus.
 > VHF NFD is a very different animal. It is points
 > per km and the closer you are to the SE coast the better off you
 > will be. That is because it is very well supported in PA,
 > ON, DL, OK etc.
 >>
 >> Completely different and your findings do not surprise me at all.
 >>
 >> I will say it again, the guys on the SE coast are not winning the
 > UKAC. There are 2 stations in IO92 that do
 > consistently well and 3 in IO74. The rules are better for UK
 > activity.
 >>
 >> 73
 >>
 >> Conrad
 >>
 
 --
 Robin Szemeti - G1YFG
 

    


Robin Szemeti - G1YFG
 

My point was that does however seem to be a good distribution of locations that produce good scores ... which would tend to imply that the scoring system is not that out of whack.  CLA is hardly up a mountain either, and if I was looking for a "contest winning location" it is not where I would choose to be honest, even if it was higher... I'd want a bit more distance between myself and the glut of stations in the south.

The fact that in the right circumstances, Ian can produce a winning score from his spot in Galloway does show that while it may be difficult to win, it should be possible to produce a respectable score from most locations, if there are not too many dirty great big hills in the way.  My location is not good, but I am still working to improve my stations, my technique and my logging which are my main challenges.


On Fri, 22 Jan 2021 at 16:23, John Fell <john.g0api@...> wrote:
Hi Ian,
Ah ,I thought you were on our favorite West GM Island of Mull , but if South of Carlisle you must be On the Mull of Galloway - much better for G .

I agree with your observations .

When operating 70MHz contests in the early 2000 era as G4RFR , IO90AS , we were only 30m asl but central on South Coast , with a fixed 60ft mast and a pair of 12 el NBS Yagis .Add in a single 4CX250 and a half decent TVTR + 940 rig and it all went well (mostly) .My shack wall has nearly 20 certificates for 1st/2nd places in both fixed and VHF NFD .Most of GM was regularly worked , with only 200miles East /West needed - a lot worked off the rear /sides of the stacked pair.

Position in those days was everything , as all the 70MHz activity was restricted to G/EI/ZB /Cyprus .

As soon as EU came on stream , this all shifted the leading stations towards the Midlands or far West .
This still does not mean that putting the effort in is not rewarded - 10GHz EME being a particular challenge .

A  10GHz beacon on the Mull would be good !

73John
G0API

On Fri, 22 Jan 2021 at 15:53, Ian White <gm3sek@...> wrote:

Replying to John and Robin together...

There are several fallacies here. The biggest and most common is the 'leading stations fallacy' - the assumption that a few top scorers are representative of what can be achieved by other people. That is not true, but also hard to kill.

The attached map is useful because it combines the UK terrain with the same 2x1deg 'squares' that we use for locators. I do well in the UKACs because I am the most southerly active station in Scotland (south of Carlisle!). Everyone else has to get over the Southern Uplands to work England at all. Even from this good QTH, most of my QSOs are at S5 or less, so GMs further north have a much harder time.

Please, look at that map and remember it.

As for me, I know my place in the results tables. Normally G4CLA is out ahead with no competition at all, and I am somewhere in the chasing pack. The only way I can ever reach the top of the table is if the people who normally beat me are away, or if something goes wrong for them... which rather blunts the satisfaction of having 'won'. It happened in this month's 2m UKAC but that is only the second time ever. All the rest of the time, I turn up and do the business for other reasons: to keep on improving and testing my station, to try and keep myself sharp, and to say hello to friends old and new.

As for bonuses, I must ask if John really meant to write that the squares adjacent to IO74 "have relatively
large populations in them"? Of the 8 adjacent squares, I normally work only 4 or 5. 6 is unusual and I don't recall ever working all 8.

Finally, some VHFCC history. Points/km scoring originated with RSGB in the late 1960s because it provided a balance between the 'quantity versus quality' of the QSOs made. Points/km achieves that balance because, writing it a different way,
        (total score) = (number of QSOs) x (average distance).
It was also recognised from the outset that rewarding long-distance contacts always helps to spread the activity out across the UK.

Radial ring scoring was a minor historical footnote. It was originally introduced because most people didn't have computers at that time. We bought maps from RSGB and drew circles on them. However, that was always seen as a  workaround, and within a few years it was no longer needed.

73 from Ian GM3SEK


On 22/01/2021 11:17, John E. Beech wrote:

Probably because GR3SEK is a fictional station and all his/her contacts are fiction too! I assume that was a typo and you 
meant G3SEK aka GM3SEK. The same comments apply to him and GD stations who are in the same square. Ian's square 
does not have any completely wet ( ie. inactive)  square adjacent to him & the ones that are adjacent have relatively 
large populations in them.

de John G8SEQ

 -------Original Message-------
 From: Robin Szemeti - G1YFG <robin@...>
 To: UKMicrowaves@groups.io <UKMicrowaves@groups.io>
 Subject: Re: [UKMicrowaves] Contesting was Condx
 Sent: Jan 22 '21 00:45
 
 You say the bonus system skews the results in favour of central
 stations ... so tell me again why GR3SEK
 
 won the open section this month? The GD stations always do well etc .
 
 Without the squares bonus, I would tend to point the antenna in the
 direction of best unworked density. For me, that would mean mostly SE,
 mopping up between E and S when I had worked most of it. The
 squares/countries encourages me to try for the PA, E, GD and GM .. and
 spend time pointing at Cornwall to see if I will be lucky.
 
 On Thu, 21 Jan 2021 at 19:34, John E. Beech <john@...> wrote:
 
 > I take your point Conrad,
 > It seems to me that the points system is at fault with the UKAC
 > contests. Scoring is the same
 > for VHF NFD and UKAC ie 1 point per kilometre. It is the bonus
 > system that skews the results in favour of central
 > stations. East coast stations north of Essex are at the most
 > disadvantaged because there is a non-scoring wet square to
 > their east, unless contacts with /MM stations are available ( not
 > likely). This might also apply to GI stations. Perhaps 100
 > points for the four adjacent squares & then 500 for any squares
 > beyond that would work better, but this is starting to
 > look like 50 k radius rings, but it would bring into play inactive
 > wet squares for Midlands stations. Or maybe just dump
 > the bonus system?
 >
 > de John G8SEQ
 >
 >> -------Original Message-------
 >> From: Conrad, PA5Y <g0ruz@...>
 >> To: UKMicrowaves@groups.io <UKMicrowaves@groups.io>
 >> Subject: Re: [UKMicrowaves] Contesting was Condx
 >> Sent: Jan 21 '21 18:13
 >>
 >> Hi John.
 >>
 >> We were talking about the UKAC and the 500 pts per square bonus.
 > VHF NFD is a very different animal. It is points
 > per km and the closer you are to the SE coast the better off you
 > will be. That is because it is very well supported in PA,
 > ON, DL, OK etc.
 >>
 >> Completely different and your findings do not surprise me at all.
 >>
 >> I will say it again, the guys on the SE coast are not winning the
 > UKAC. There are 2 stations in IO92 that do
 > consistently well and 3 in IO74. The rules are better for UK
 > activity.
 >>
 >> 73
 >>
 >> Conrad
 >>
 
 --
 Robin Szemeti - G1YFG
 

    


--
Robin Szemeti - G1YFG


Ian White
 

On 22/01/2021 16:23, John Fell wrote:
Hi Ian,
Ah ,I thought you were on our favorite West GM Island of Mull , but if South of Carlisle you must be On the Mull of Galloway - much better for G .

It's Roger GM4PMK who is on the Isle of Mull - and has just reappeared on 4m, by the way.

I am not on the Mull of Galloway, but on the next peninsula east - for those with long memories, "15km *east* of Scares" - which actually has a better sea path for most of G.

We have thought of a 10GHz beacon locally but it would need to serve both G and GM, and none of our sites is quite suitable.

73 from Ian GM3SEK


John Fell
 

Hi Ian ,
Noted .
I vaguely remember working Julian G3YGF /P from thereabouts in the late 1970s/early 1980s probably 144MHz SSB talkback 
Will ask him in a minute if that was the QTH - think it was a 1296MHz bash ?

I doubt anywhere in GM will produce a large coverage of GM +G , but knowing the site EI/GI/GM/Borders (and beyond with RS ) + a lot of coastal paths down West side of G (and maybe well beyond ) , would make it viable ?

73
John



On Fri, 22 Jan 2021 at 17:01, Ian White <gm3sek@...> wrote:
On 22/01/2021 16:23, John Fell wrote:
Hi Ian,
Ah ,I thought you were on our favorite West GM Island of Mull , but if South of Carlisle you must be On the Mull of Galloway - much better for G .

It's Roger GM4PMK who is on the Isle of Mull - and has just reappeared on 4m, by the way.

I am not on the Mull of Galloway, but on the next peninsula east - for those with long memories, "15km *east* of Scares" - which actually has a better sea path for most of G.

We have thought of a 10GHz beacon locally but it would need to serve both G and GM, and none of our sites is quite suitable.

73 from Ian GM3SEK


Andy
 

We have thought of a 10GHz beacon locally but it would need to serve both G and GM
If you'd have said something sooner then I could have helped out as I had some ex-G3WDG gear I could have donated. It's been sold now.

Andy


John E. Beech
 

I meant relative large populations compared to an all wet square.

de John G8SEQ

-------Original Message-------
From: Ian White <gm3sek@ifwtech.co.uk>
To: UKMicrowaves@groups.io <UKMicrowaves@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [UKMicrowaves] Contesting was Condx
Sent: Jan 22 '21 15:53

Replying to John and Robin together...

There are several fallacies here. The biggest and most common is the
'leading stations fallacy' - the assumption that a few top scorers are
representative of what can be achieved by other people. That is not
true, but also hard to kill.

The attached map is useful because it combines the UK terrain with the
same 2x1deg 'squares' that we use for locators. I do well in the UKACs
because I am the most southerly active station in Scotland (south of
Carlisle!). Everyone else has to get over the Southern Uplands to work
England at all. Even from this good QTH, most of my QSOs are at S5 or
less, so GMs further north have a much harder time.

Please, look at that map and remember it.

As for me, I know my place in the results tables. Normally G4CLA is
out ahead with no competition at all, and I am somewhere in the
chasing pack. The only way I can ever reach the top of the table is if
the people who normally beat me are away, or if something goes wrong
for them... which rather blunts the satisfaction of having 'won'. It
happened in this month's 2m UKAC but that is only the second time
ever. All the rest of the time, I turn up and do the business for
other reasons: to keep on improving and testing my station, to try and
keep myself sharp, and to say hello to friends old and new.

As for bonuses, I must ask if John really meant to write that the
squares adjacent to IO74 "have relatively
large populations in them"? Of the 8 adjacent squares, I normally
work only 4 or 5. 6 is unusual and I don't recall ever working all 8.

Finally, some VHFCC history. Points/km scoring originated with RSGB in
the late 1960s because it provided a balance between the 'quantity
versus quality' of the QSOs made. Points/km achieves that balance
because, writing it a different way,
(total score) = (number of QSOs) x (average distance).
It was also recognised from the outset that rewarding long-distance
contacts always helps to spread the activity out across the UK.

Radial ring scoring was a minor historical footnote. It was originally
introduced because most people didn't have computers at that time. We
bought maps from RSGB and drew circles on them. However, that was
always seen as a workaround, and within a few years it was no longer
needed.

73 from Ian GM3SEK

On 22/01/2021 11:17, John E. Beech wrote:

> Probably because GR3SEK is a fictional station and all his/her
> contacts are fiction too! I assume that was a typo and you
> meant G3SEK aka GM3SEK. The same comments apply to him and GD
> stations who are in the same square. Ian's square
> does not have any completely wet ( ie. inactive) square adjacent to
> him & the ones that are adjacent have relatively
> large populations in them.
>
> de John G8SEQ
>
>> -------Original Message-------
>> From: Robin Szemeti - G1YFG <robin@redpoint.org.uk>
>> To: UKMicrowaves@groups.io <UKMicrowaves@groups.io>
>> Subject: Re: [UKMicrowaves] Contesting was Condx
>> Sent: Jan 22 '21 00:45
>>
>> You say the bonus system skews the results in favour of central
>> stations ... so tell me again why GR3SEK
>>
>> won the open section this month? The GD stations always do well
>> etc .
>>
>> Without the squares bonus, I would tend to point the antenna in
>> the
>> direction of best unworked density. For me, that would mean
>> mostly SE,
>> mopping up between E and S when I had worked most of it. The
>> squares/countries encourages me to try for the PA, E, GD and GM
>> .. and
>> spend time pointing at Cornwall to see if I will be lucky.
>>
>> On Thu, 21 Jan 2021 at 19:34, John E. Beech <john@g8seq.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I take your point Conrad,
>>> It seems to me that the points system is at fault with the UKAC
>>> contests. Scoring is the same
>>> for VHF NFD and UKAC ie 1 point per kilometre. It is the bonus
>>> system that skews the results in favour of central
>>> stations. East coast stations north of Essex are at the most
>>> disadvantaged because there is a non-scoring wet square to
>>> their east, unless contacts with /MM stations are available (
>> not
>>> likely). This might also apply to GI stations. Perhaps 100
>>> points for the four adjacent squares & then 500 for any squares
>>> beyond that would work better, but this is starting to
>>> look like 50 k radius rings, but it would bring into play
>> inactive
>>> wet squares for Midlands stations. Or maybe just dump
>>> the bonus system?
>>>
>>> de John G8SEQ
>>>
>>>> -------Original Message-------
>>>> From: Conrad, PA5Y <g0ruz@g0ruz.com>
>>>> To: UKMicrowaves@groups.io <UKMicrowaves@groups.io>
>>>> Subject: Re: [UKMicrowaves] Contesting was Condx
>>>> Sent: Jan 21 '21 18:13
>>>>
>>>> Hi John.
>>>>
>>>> We were talking about the UKAC and the 500 pts per square
>> bonus.
>>> VHF NFD is a very different animal. It is points
>>> per km and the closer you are to the SE coast the better off
>> you
>>> will be. That is because it is very well supported in PA,
>>> ON, DL, OK etc.
>>>>
>>>> Completely different and your findings do not surprise me at
>> all.
>>>>
>>>> I will say it again, the guys on the SE coast are not winning
>> the
>>> UKAC. There are 2 stations in IO92 that do
>>> consistently well and 3 in IO74. The rules are better for UK
>>> activity.
>>>>
>>>> 73
>>>>
>>>> Conrad
>>>>
>>
>> --
>> Robin Szemeti - G1YFG