Topics

A proper RAE again


Andy G4JNT
 

AT long last.

20 years overdue




The RSGB’s Examination Standards Committee is launching a consultation today to ask for the views of the amateur radio community on a new, Direct to Full licence exam which would run in parallel with the existing three-tier system.

 

The background to this consultation and a link to the proposed syllabus can be found on the RSGB website: www.rsgb.org/direct-to-full

 

There is also a link to a short survey which asks specific questions but also gives you an opportunity to add additional comments or questions.

 

The consultation will run until Sunday 14 March after which we will gather the results and announce them in due course.

 

We would encourage everyone to take part in this consultation.



Paul Evans W4/VP9KF
 

Well said, Andy. The current silly system is putting more experienced types off the licence and is heavily biassed towards 'young starter' types.

Fill in the survey. I just did.

If I could pass the old, long form RAE at age 13, then there's no reason why a 20 something engineer shouldn't pass a tick box 'nothing to full' exam. They are needed for their creative ideas.

--
73, Paul Evans G4BKI [VP9KF]


Murray Niman
 

Anyone who has naively raced and filled in the survey without carefully reading the 50 page syllabus should go back to school....

Please check the small print.....!!!

 73

  Murray 


Andy G4JNT
 

I skim-read the syllabus.    Not vastly different to a full one with the Noddy elements of the other two included for TOC.



Virus-free. www.avg.com


On Wed, 17 Feb 2021 at 12:55, Murray Niman <g6jyb@...> wrote:
Anyone who has naively raced and filled in the survey without carefully reading the 50 page syllabus should go back to school....

Please check the small print.....!!!

 73

  Murray 


ian hope (2E0IJH)
 

I've read the whole thing, and made comments, few areas that need some adjustment, looks over technical, some of the power and AC theory stuff is little too much towards HNC level, but nothing that could be fixed with a few mods, Good starting point for debate.
My view is there should be plans for a direct to intermediate as I know many that only ever want intermediate level and have sat both foundation and intermediate back to back. The foundation has drifted from it's original purpose and become too technical.
Likely time to look at the whole structure especially in the light of the ease of making them online, which has opened up the hobby to a vast amount that couldn't work with the Club system, many areas had no exams or training in quite a while as no clubs in the area offered them.
 
Ian
M5IJH

 
 
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2021 at 12:59 PM
From: "Andy G4JNT" <andy.g4jnt@...>
To: "UK Microwaves groups.io" <UKMicrowaves@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [UKMicrowaves] A proper RAE again
I skim-read the syllabus.    Not vastly different to a full one with the Noddy elements of the other two included for TOC.
 
Andy
 
 
Virus-free. www.avg.com
 
On Wed, 17 Feb 2021 at 12:55, Murray Niman <g6jyb@...> wrote:
Anyone who has naively raced and filled in the survey without carefully reading the 50 page syllabus should go back to school....

Please check the small print.....!!!

 73

  Murray 

 

 


Andy G4JNT
 

I disagree, Ian
If all they want i is an intermediate licence to just play around with, then taking just two exams is no big deal to stay at that level.
As stated, the aim of this is to attract those experienced and already competent people - the ones we actually want to fill our ranks who would have to take three separate exams.

I know of at least five people over the years who were put off the whole idea of an amateur radio licence when the nausea of the three level system was introduced..   Three of them were ex military then MoD people, having worked in EW / Comms all their lives.



On Wed, 17 Feb 2021 at 13:09, ian hope (2E0IJH) <ian@...> wrote:
I've read the whole thing, and made comments, few areas that need some adjustment, looks over technical, some of the power and AC theory stuff is little too much towards HNC level, but nothing that could be fixed with a few mods, Good starting point for debate.
My view is there should be plans for a direct to intermediate as I know many that only ever want intermediate level and have sat both foundation and intermediate back to back. The foundation has drifted from it's original purpose and become too technical.
Likely time to look at the whole structure especially in the light of the ease of making them online, which has opened up the hobby to a vast amount that couldn't work with the Club system, many areas had no exams or training in quite a while as no clubs in the area offered them.
 
Ian
M5IJH
 
 
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2021 at 12:59 PM
From: "Andy G4JNT" <andy.g4jnt@...>
To: "UK Microwaves groups.io" <UKMicrowaves@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [UKMicrowaves] A proper RAE again
I skim-read the syllabus.    Not vastly different to a full one with the Noddy elements of the other two included for TOC.
 
Andy
 
 
Virus-free. www.avg.com
 
On Wed, 17 Feb 2021 at 12:55, Murray Niman <g6jyb@...> wrote:
Anyone who has naively raced and filled in the survey without carefully reading the 50 page syllabus should go back to school....

Please check the small print.....!!!

 73

  Murray 

 

 


militaryoperator
 

Unfortunately, being old and decrepit and always feeling that the young have things far too easy these days I agree with the comment and sentiment that if we could pass a "written" RAE when 16 odd then ticking a few multi-choice questions, 2 of which are usually ridiculous and obviously wrong so can be ignored leaving a 50 50 for the other two and getting a pass rate only slightly above the inflation rate cannot be that hard.

I recall something like "Draw the typical circuit of a two-valve transmitter, give values for each component and state the function of that component" or "Explain how a Colpitts oscillator works" etc etc. (What? we no longer use valves. OMG)

In teaching I went from drawing circuits for students to drawing "Blocks", this an oscillator, this is an amplifier, sig in here, bigger sig out here. The dumbing down has continued no doubt. 

Still, it all evens out. Those who collect the packet tops usually buy new rigs, get bored in 3 months then sell them off cheaper. I see them on the FB groups all the time.

Those who are really interested do progress I suppose so we end up with the right stuff in the end, hi. 

cherri pip, good night last night. Ben G4BXD, ex G8.




Dave Cawley G4IUG
 

Well said Andy

On my return  to amateur radio years ago,  after a 30 year absence,  I was horrified at what was out there.  I went into this hobby because like the International Telecommunications Union defines amateur radio as “a service of self-training, intercommunication and technical investigation"  that is what I wanted and that is what I got, and it served me well, very well !

The existing system needs overhauling too as some new Foundation people don't seem to know the difference between HF and VHF ? Other are really good.  YMMV

73  Dave  G4IUG  Ex G8EAO


John E. Beech
 

Same here Ben,
When I took the G&G RAE in 1978, it was questions which said to effect: " Tell us all you know
about propagation or transmitters or whatever".
Todays multiple guess papers are only any good at finding out what you don't know.

de John G8SEQ

-------Original Message-------
From: militaryoperator via groups.io <Military1944=aol.com@groups.io>
To: UKMicrowaves@groups.io <UKMicrowaves@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [UKMicrowaves] A proper RAE again
Sent: Feb 17 '21 13:32

Unfortunately, being old and decrepit and always feeling that the
young have things far too easy these days I agree with the comment and
sentiment that if we could pass a "written" RAE when 16 odd then
ticking a few multi-choice questions, 2 of which are usually
ridiculous and obviously wrong so can be ignored leaving a 50 50 for
the other two and getting a pass rate only slightly above the
inflation rate cannot be that hard.

I recall something like "Draw the typical circuit of a two-valve
transmitter, give values for each component and state the function of
that component" or "Explain how a Colpitts oscillator works" etc etc.
(What? we no longer use valves. OMG)

In teaching I went from drawing circuits for students to drawing
"Blocks", this an oscillator, this is an amplifier, sig in here,
bigger sig out here. The dumbing down has continued no doubt.

Still, it all evens out. Those who collect the packet tops usually buy
new rigs, get bored in 3 months then sell them off cheaper. I see them
on the FB groups all the time.

Those who are really interested do progress I suppose so we end up
with the right stuff in the end, hi.

cherri pip, good night last night. Ben G4BXD, ex G8.


ian hope (2E0IJH)
 

Andy, I get approx 4 or 5 enquiries a year about a direct to full from technical people that could easily pass one, But I have been involved with at least 50 exam sessions where someone has sat a foundation and intermediate back to back and at least 20 of those have never wanted to gain a full as they have no interest in a full or need one. Many of these that sat the exam back to back, had no need to take a foundation
 
ian
M5IJH

 
 
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2021 at 1:24 PM
From: "Andy G4JNT" <andy.g4jnt@...>
To: "UK Microwaves groups.io" <UKMicrowaves@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [UKMicrowaves] A proper RAE again
I disagree, Ian
If all they want i is an intermediate licence to just play around with, then taking just two exams is no big deal to stay at that level.
As stated, the aim of this is to attract those experienced and already competent people - the ones we actually want to fill our ranks who would have to take three separate exams.
 
I know of at least five people over the years who were put off the whole idea of an amateur radio licence when the nausea of the three level system was introduced..   Three of them were ex military then MoD people, having worked in EW / Comms all their lives.
 
Andy
 
 
On Wed, 17 Feb 2021 at 13:09, ian hope (2E0IJH) <ian@...> wrote:
I've read the whole thing, and made comments, few areas that need some adjustment, looks over technical, some of the power and AC theory stuff is little too much towards HNC level, but nothing that could be fixed with a few mods, Good starting point for debate.
My view is there should be plans for a direct to intermediate as I know many that only ever want intermediate level and have sat both foundation and intermediate back to back. The foundation has drifted from it's original purpose and become too technical.
Likely time to look at the whole structure especially in the light of the ease of making them online, which has opened up the hobby to a vast amount that couldn't work with the Club system, many areas had no exams or training in quite a while as no clubs in the area offered them.
 
Ian
M5IJH
 
 
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2021 at 12:59 PM
From: "Andy G4JNT" <andy.g4jnt@...>
To: "UK Microwaves groups.io" <UKMicrowaves@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [UKMicrowaves] A proper RAE again
I skim-read the syllabus.    Not vastly different to a full one with the Noddy elements of the other two included for TOC.
 
Andy
 
 
Virus-free. www.avg.com
 
On Wed, 17 Feb 2021 at 12:55, Murray Niman <g6jyb@...> wrote:
Anyone who has naively raced and filled in the survey without carefully reading the 50 page syllabus should go back to school....

Please check the small print.....!!!

 73

  Murray 

 

 

 

 


Mike Willis
 

Give anyone with interest, technical competence a full license as long as they can demonstrate they understand the rules and the knowledge to do no harm. Otherwise we clone ourselves. We might end up with a bunch of computer programmers, civil or mechanical engineers or retired spooks but that's not necessarily a bad thing.
--
Mike G0MJW


Steve G4HTZ
 

I think a straight to full exam is a good idea ....but does it mean these more technically minded people are going to operate more ...or just come on forums like this blurting out technical stuff but never operating very much ....or maybe just a couple of hours once a month on a UKAC !!!

I just re joined the RSGB after a lapse of a few years ....welcome pack arrived today along with the February edition of radcom ....I think G4BAO summed it up well in his opening paragraph of his GHZ column .

I look forward to hearing some of the people who have bought the 10ghz transverter boards from G4DBN ...outside of contests of course .

me ...I’ve got the new DB6NT 10ghz and 24ghz transverters to cobble together when enthusiastic again ...having more fun refurbishing a Viking Johnson AM transmitter from the 1950s at the moment .

not very technical here ...passed RAE in 1977 as a 17 year old and Morse test a few months later ...never worked in a technical industry ...just bodged my way through my amateur radio operations ....and still doing so 😀

so more people actually operating rather than talking about it is the way to go .....

just my thoughts 
--
Steve G4HTZ 
JO01JN60
Great Wakering, Essex 
24ghz 1.8w 80cm dish 

also known to be active occasionally on 70cms DATV 


Andy G4JNT
 

What's wrong with that?
We're not all interested in wahloing

Sometimes the design, build and construction is everything.
I don't care if my latest homebrew transverter languishes on the shelf after it's proven itself in a test kew-ess-oh (24GHz, a case in point here, little interest in going out /P )



On Wed, 17 Feb 2021 at 17:14, Steve G4HTZ via groups.io <essexsteve=icloud.com@groups.io> wrote:
 ... but does it mean these more technically minded people are going to operate more ...or just come on forums like this blurting out technical stuff but never operating very much 

I


Steve G4HTZ
 

Yes I get that Andy ....guess if I’ve managed to bodge something together I would actually like to make some contacts on it ...everyone has different goals I guess 
--
Steve G4HTZ 
JO01JN60
Great Wakering, Essex 
24ghz 1.8w 80cm dish 

also known to be active occasionally on 70cms DATV 


g4zod@btinternet.com
 

My son being an engineer  would have sailed through the RAE.
However he was not prepared to mess around with three separate  exams.( He was using two way communications in St John Ambulance and was already  "on air". )
If there had been a one part exam he would have taken it if I had pushed him. 
Likewise older friends of mine who have a good technical knowledge are put off by the need for three exams. 
Hopefully there will be a rethink of the current  exam structure. 
Julian G4ZOD.




Sent from my Galaxy


-------- Original message --------
From: Andy G4JNT <andy.g4jnt@...>
Date: 17/02/2021 13:00 (GMT+00:00)
To: "UK Microwaves groups.io" <UKMicrowaves@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [UKMicrowaves] A proper RAE again

I skim-read the syllabus.    Not vastly different to a full one with the Noddy elements of the other two included for TOC.



Virus-free. www.avg.com

On Wed, 17 Feb 2021 at 12:55, Murray Niman <g6jyb@...> wrote:
Anyone who has naively raced and filled in the survey without carefully reading the 50 page syllabus should go back to school....

Please check the small print.....!!!

 73

  Murray 


matthew twyman <matthew222twyman@...>
 

Good evening
I notice folks with technical interest generally stay distance.
Competence should be by interview not exam. You can teach someone to get a good degree but being clever is
very different ...
73
Matthew


John E. Beech
 

I don't see why we can't have one exam, with progressively"harder" questions. Say 100 Q's. If you get 20 + to 39
right = Foundation; 40+ to 74 = Intermediate & 75 + to 100 = Full licence. Those who just miss out on the next
level might be encouraged to take it again.

de John G8SEQ

-------Original Message-------
From: g4zod@btinternet.com via groups.io <g4zod=btinternet.com@groups.io>
To: UKMicrowaves@groups.io <UKMicrowaves@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [UKMicrowaves] A proper RAE again
Sent: Feb 17 '21 17:41

My son being an engineer would have sailed through the RAE.
However he was not prepared to mess around with three separate exams.(
He was using two way communications in St John Ambulance and was
already "on air". )
If there had been a one part exam he would have taken it if I had
pushed him.
Likewise older friends of mine who have a good technical knowledge are
put off by the need for three exams.
Hopefully there will be a rethink of the current exam structure.
Julian G4ZOD.

Sent from my Galaxy

-------- Original message --------
From: Andy G4JNT <andy.g4jnt@gmail.com>
Date: 17/02/2021 13:00 (GMT+00:00)
To: "UK Microwaves groups.io" <UKMicrowaves@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [UKMicrowaves] A proper RAE again

I skim-read the syllabus. Not vastly different to a full one with the
Noddy elements of the other two included for TOC.

Andy
www.g4jnt.com

Virus-free. www.avg.com

On Wed, 17 Feb 2021 at 12:55, Murray Niman <g6jyb@microwavers.org>
wrote:

> Anyone who has naively raced and filled in the survey without
> carefully reading the 50 page syllabus should go back to school....
>
> Please check the small print.....!!!
>
> 73
>
> Murray


Murray Niman
 


Forgive the pun but to some degree its academic...

For most microwave bands...
You only have to pass Foundation to gain immediate access to 10GHz
(and intermediate for the rest) - that adds up to >2-3000 new folk per year

But where are the 'attractors' to get those newcomers onto bands >1GHz...?
73
   Murray

PS And remember in licence-exempt hack mode many would already be there with Wi-Fi, mesh, video etc, so its not all about DX...


militaryoperator
 

Good evening
I notice folks with technical interest generally stay distance.
Competence should be by interview not exam. You can teach someone to get a good degree but being clever is
very different ...
73
Matthew


Ah, that's where I went wrong. I guess I'll need to flush all those parchments on the downstairs loo walls down the loo. 
Pity, the MIT ones are quite pretty.

Ben


Geoff Newstead
 

Hello all

FWIW I think a single exam to full license is generally a good plan and will encourage those with a technical background to enter the hobby.

However, until we are again asked to pay an annual renewal fee to finance license enforcement, I see little point in anyone progressing above foundation level. I wonder when Ofcom last prosecuted anyone for license infringements?  With the influx of affordable Chinese equipment requiring little to no experience or skill to set up and operate, there is nothing to stop a foundation licensee with a paypal account from running a kilowatt across the bands.

 

As far as the qualification/degree argument is concerned: I have worked most of my life as a professional RF design engineer and without a doubt the best engineers all had good degrees.  However, some of the worst engineers I ever worked with also had good degrees!

 

Discuss

Geoff

G8EKG

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: militaryoperator via groups.io
Sent: 17 February 2021 19:28
To: UKMicrowaves@groups.io
Subject: Re: [UKMicrowaves] A proper RAE again

 

Good evening

I notice folks with technical interest generally stay distance.

Competence should be by interview not exam. You can teach someone to get a good degree but being clever is

very different ...

73

Matthew

 

 

Ah, that's where I went wrong. I guess I'll need to flush all those parchments on the downstairs loo walls down the loo. 

Pity, the MIT ones are quite pretty.

 

Ben