Useful article ?


Alan Melia
 

This turned up on one of the free emag downloads (EDN). It might be
interesting to those who maybe dont see some of these mags.
It is an "academic" article about microwave testing, maybe intended for
undergraduates. As it is a two-liner you may have to cut and paste the
residual bit of the URL.

http://cas.web.cern.ch/cas/UK-2007/Afternoon%20Courses/RF/practical%20instructions%20rf%20&%20microwave%20measurement%20tutorial.pdf

Alan G3NYK


Conrad Farlow <conrad@...>
 

Sadly that is more likely to be aimed an MSc or MEng students, things are not what they were Alan.

73

Conrad G0RUZ

--------------------------

G0RUZ's new web pages



Alan Melia wrote:

This turned up on one of the free emag downloads (EDN). It might be
interesting to those who maybe dont see some of these mags.
It is an "academic" article about microwave testing, maybe intended for
undergraduates. As it is a two-liner you may have to cut and paste the
residual bit of the URL.

http://cas.web.cern.ch/cas/UK-2007/Afternoon%20Courses/RF/practical%20instructions%20rf%20&%20microwave%20measurement%20tutorial.pdf

Alan G3NYK



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ukmicrowaves/

<*> Your email settings:
    Individual Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ukmicrowaves/join
    (Yahoo! ID required)

<*> To change settings via email:
    ukmicrowaves-digest@... 
    ukmicrowaves-fullfeatured@...

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
    ukmicrowaves-unsubscribe@...

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
    http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

  


bernie <bernie@...>
 

Conrad Farlow wrote:

Sadly that is more likely to be aimed an MSc or MEng students, things are not what they were Alan.
So what's the problem?

Those who think it's too much for them don't have to read it. You don't improve the situation you refer to by taking out all the detailed articles/references.

Bernie


Andy Talbot <andy.g4jnt@...>
 

I think the point being made is that these days such a level of technical comprehension will only be on an MSc course; basic degrees being dumbed down to such an extent these days.   How many modern electronics courses actually cover S-parameters, I wonder.

On 15 May 2010 19:33, bernie <bernie@...> wrote:
 

Conrad Farlow wrote:
>
>
> Sadly that is more likely to be aimed an MSc or MEng students, things
> are not what they were Alan.
>
So what's the problem?

Those who think it's too much for them don't have to read it. You don't
improve the situation you refer to by taking out all the detailed
articles/references.

Bernie



Alan Melia
 

Hi Conrad, Ah and interesting comment! Not being a professional in this
field I was not aware of the teaching levels. The thing it does, is say a
awful lot for the level of expertise and knowledge inside this group!! I
"vacuum up" anything that looks interesting on testing (sad really :-)) ) I
ought to get out a bit (on the bands !!)

Cheers
Alan G3NYK


Conrad Farlow <conrad@...>
 

That was exactly my point Andy. However it is not only that degrees are being dumbed down (they are of course) , also they are far too broad. A general electronics degree these days has to encompass a lot of additional topics not just op amps,discrete transistor / mosfet amps and TTL logic. There are CPLDs, FPGAs and DSP to consider, not to mention all the other new technologies. Consequently things do not get covered in sufficient detail.

Universities should make the degrees much more specific much earlier on. I had to take Masters levels modules to get any decent level lectures in anything RF based. The biggest problem faced by Universities with engineering students is the low level of maths ability, this does not apply to foreign students, so something is wrong in our schools.

73

Conrad G0RUZ

--------------------------

G0RUZ's new web pages



Andy Talbot wrote:

I think the point being made is that these days such a level of technicalcomprehension will only be on an MSc course; basic degrees being dumbed down to such an extent these days. How many modern electronics courses actually cover S-parameters, I wonder.
On 15 May 2010 19:33, bernie <bernie@...> wrote:

Conrad Farlow wrote:
>
>
> Sadly that is more likely to be aimed an MSc or MEng students, things
> are not what they were Alan.
>
So what's the problem?

Those who think it's too much for them don't have to read it. You don't
improve the situation you refer to by taking out all the detailed
articles/references.

Bernie



bernie <bernie@...>
 

Ah - OK Conrad, I got the context wrong. Apologies.

I don't think there is anything new about courses being too broad, though. It was true also in 1975 when I finished my degree course in Electronics and Communications at Bolton. Apart from some maths and physics, it didn't teach me anything that I didn't already know via amateur radio, it was so broad, and it was a further decade before I really accepted that it wasn't just a sub-standard (polytech) course and that others around me had had a similar experience. On a general course like that, it was interesting (if a little frustrating) to find different areas such as control engineering and opamp/logic theory covering the same basics but using differing terminology.

A much sadder experience, which I started to notice about 15 years ago, was how the larger companies I worked for were limiting the freedom of their engineers. It now seems quite common to give engineers 'work packets', and not involve them further in the running and direction determining side of the set up. Fortunately, this doesn't seem to occur in smaller companies, where everyone is still expected to muck-in.

Better stop know before I start making comments about Management...

Bernie



Conrad Farlow wrote:


That was exactly my point Andy. However it is not only that degrees are being dumbed down (they are of course) , also they are far too broad. A general electronics degree these days has to encompass a lot of additional topics not just op amps,discrete transistor / mosfet amps and TTL logic. There are CPLDs, FPGAs and DSP to consider, not to mention all the other new technologies. Consequently things do not get covered in sufficient detail.

Universities should make the degrees much more specific much earlier on. I had to take Masters levels modules to get any decent level lectures in anything RF based. The biggest problem faced by Universities with engineering students is the low level of maths ability, this does not apply to foreign students, so something is wrong in our schools.


Christopher Bartram <cbartram@...>
 

Andy

There's at least one Welsh University which doesn't teach any RF content on
its undergraduate courses. I had a long talk to the lecturer responsible for
the design of the courses, and he explained from his point of view that there
simply isn't time to teach everything, and that electronics is now a very big
field ...

Courses for horses, I guess.

Vy 73

Chris
GW4DGU


Joe McElvenney <ximac@...>
 

Hi,

Keep 'em coming Alan - the horse ain't quite dead yet!

There are still a number of centres of excellence in this country and,
if some of the new government's cuts were to be aimed at the teaching of
non-subjects, we may be in with a chance. And, as for VNAs, they're only
vector-out/vector-in versus frequency thingies; so what's so hard?


Cheers - Joe G3LLV


Steve Bunting M0BPQ
 

My University employer find the Maths standards of engineering undergraduates to be a real problem, but that might be linked to the issues we have in finding anyone from the UK that wants to do engineering in the first place. Several of our courses would close without the overseas students.

The lack of specialisation in modern degree courses across the board is easier to explain - generic courses give economies of scale!
73
Steve
M0BPQ
(based in a Health faculty)


Conrad Farlow <conrad@...>
 

I can confirm that this was the case in 2004 to 2006 as well. In the signals and systems lectures I was the only indigenous student in the class, ditto for Microwave Engineering.

73

Conrad G0RUZ

--------------------------

G0RUZ's new web pages



Steve Bunting wrote:

My University employer find the Maths standards of engineering 
undergraduates to be a real problem, but that might be linked to the 
issues we have in finding anyone from the UK that wants to do 
engineering in the first place. Several of our courses would close 
without the overseas students.

The lack of specialisation in modern degree courses across the board is 
easier to explain - generic courses give economies of scale!
73
Steve
M0BPQ
(based in a Health faculty)



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ukmicrowaves/

<*> Your email settings:
    Individual Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ukmicrowaves/join
    (Yahoo! ID required)

<*> To change settings via email:
    ukmicrowaves-digest@... 
    ukmicrowaves-fullfeatured@...

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
    ukmicrowaves-unsubscribe@...

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
    http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

  


Conrad Farlow <conrad@...>
 

Why am I suddenly getting a couple of lines of white space at the top of my posts, any idea? Anyone?

73

Conrad G0RUZ

--------------------------

G0RUZ's new web pages



Conrad Farlow wrote:

I can confirm that this was the case in 2004 to 2006 as well. In the signals and systems lectures I was the only indigenous student in the class, ditto for Microwave Engineering.

73

Conrad G0RUZ

--------------------------

G0RUZ's new web pages



Steve Bunting wrote:
My University employer find the Maths standards of engineering 
undergraduates to be a real problem, but that might be linked to the 
issues we have in finding anyone from the UK that wants to do 
engineering in the first place. Several of our courses would close 
without the overseas students.

The lack of specialisation in modern degree courses across the board is 
easier to explain - generic courses give economies of scale!
73
Steve
M0BPQ
(based in a Health faculty)



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ukmicrowaves/

<*> Your email settings:
    Individual Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ukmicrowaves/join
    (Yahoo! ID required)

<*> To change settings via email:
    ukmicrowaves-digest@... 
    ukmicrowaves-fullfeatured@...

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
    ukmicrowaves-unsubscribe@...

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
    http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

  


Jonathan Naylor <naylorjs@...>
 

Hi Conrad

I'm currently doing an MSc and I too am the only indigenous student on my particular course and one of only two in the whole cohort of MSc students in the faculty as a whole.

I have to say that the modules in my MSc are deep and challenging, and many are shared with the BSc students. I don't see much dumbing down.

Jonathan G4KLX


Brian Flynn GM8BJF
 

I was intersted to see this thread as one who teaches UG and PG students in E&EE and replying made a useful distraction from marking my RF Engineering 4 exam papers as it it that time of year!

I am in a university where we still beleive that the basics are important. We still run courses in Electromag and RF Engineering (Which was formally known as Applications of Electromagnetics. We decided this title was a bit off-putting for the students a couple of years ago ;-) ) which I teach.

I agree that the whole subject has got a whole lot wider since the halcyon days of the 1970s. At work we have long debates about what we should and should not be teaching and inevitably some areas are covered in more depth that others. At the end of the day we cant do everthing. We have industrial advisory boards but they usually just grind their own axes and are not always very helpful. In some respects in Scotland we are luckier in that BEngs are 4 years and MEngs are 5 yearrs.

I find the students are not put off by the hard stuff despite the press they generally get and it is probably worth remembering that in general they have more pressures over money and employment worries than was the case in the late 60s and 70s (remember grants!)


73s

Brian, GM8BJF

From one of the larger universities in Edinburgh

PS this is a bit off topic.