Date   

Re: Condx

John Fell
 

   Exchanges: Contest exchanges on the microwave bands consist of RS(T) + serial number (starting at 001). In addition, the six (or eight) figure QTH Locator must be exchanged

That''s wot it says for 2021 

John
G0API 


On Tue, 19 Jan 2021 at 17:18, John Fell via groups.io <john.g0api=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:
Yup,
Flatter than the proverbial .
Soggy signal from KBQ (loud) but no DX at all .
It needs the right rain but I hate to wish for that with the Rain map showing wots about upt North .
Is the Tone a mandatory requirement in uwave contests ?
Must look at the rules ....

John
G0API


Condx

John Fell
 

Yup,
Flatter than the proverbial .
Soggy signal from KBQ (loud) but no DX at all .
It needs the right rain but I hate to wish for that with the Rain map showing wots about upt North .
Is the Tone a mandatory requirement in uwave contests ?
Must look at the rules ....

John
G0API


Re: Rain Scatter

Pete - GM4BYF
 

I have received reports like 54S - but not sure if S is acceptable in contest reporting or other computerised logging schemes as a tone report.

73
Pete GM4BYF
On 19/01/21 16:50, Clive Elliott GW4MBS via groups.io wrote:

Shows how the special fence post & the Baofeng helps keep things on track. Nice rain this afternoon copying GB3KBQ, GB3SCX & personal beacon of GW4NOS.

Then the strongest signals I've yet heard from G4UVZ Taunton 59 SSB stronger at times than the 2m signal we also worked on CW 599.

But to give the report T9 always seems anomalous on rain scatter in particular. I believe contacts via aurora can be suffixed A eg 59A on SSB or 599A on CW. Does anyone qualify the tone part of the report with say R & if so is this in addition to say 599R  or 59R? Or is there any point in doing it as it may be a complication for what may already may be a weak signal exchange & why CW was being used anyway?
--
Clive GW4MBS (ex-G8ADP)
Pottering on 6m - 3cm in a valley in IO71XW where any QSO is a triumph of optimism over geography!

--
vry 73
Pete GM4BYF


Re: Baofeng UV-5R output on 10GHz

Neil Smith G4DBN
 

Oh, forgot, it is also best to spot with /B for beacons, as sometimes they aren't parsed into B'spot without that suffix, not sure why, but don't want to pollute the  database with experimental spots!

DX 10368755 GB3LEX/B IO92IQ<RS>IO93NR 57S

Neil G4DBN

also s/Wong/Wrong/;

On 19/01/2021 17:00, Neil Smith G4DBN wrote:

Rainscatter report replaces tone with 'S', so 59S on CW, but not usually on SSB - I use NBFM when rainscatter signals are strong. If you spot on the cluster, it helps with beacons if you use a standard layout like:

DX 10368755 GB3LEX IO92IQ<RS>IO93NR 57S

so Beaconspot can slurp the spot into the database.


Re: Baofeng UV-5R output on 10GHz

Neil Smith G4DBN
 

Rainscatter report replaces tone with 'S', so 59S on CW, but not usually on SSB - I use NBFM when rainscatter signals are strong. If you spot on the cluster, it helps with beacons if you use a standard layout like:

DX 10368755 GB3LEX IO92IQ<RS>IO93NR 57S

so Beaconspot can slurp the spot into the database.

Wong Sort Of Rain up here today, not hearing much at all, but if there is a decent storm that you can illuminate, and clear air for the rest of the way to me, it should be feasible to make it on 3cm one day.

Conditions have been execrable for days, almost no copy of GB3CAM, not a peep out of OSW or LEX or KBQ or even PKT, never mind anything in GM or outside the UK, and now there is too much rain. 

Neil G4DBN


On 19/01/2021 16:50, Clive Elliott GW4MBS via groups.io wrote:
Shows how the special fence post & the Baofeng helps keep things on track. Nice rain this afternoon copying GB3KBQ, GB3SCX & personal beacon of GW4NOS.

Then the strongest signals I've yet heard from G4UVZ Taunton 59 SSB stronger at times than the 2m signal we also worked on CW 599.

But to give the report T9 always seems anomalous on rain scatter in particular. I believe contacts via aurora can be suffixed A eg 59A on SSB or 599A on CW. Does anyone qualify the tone part of the report with say R & if so is this in addition to say 599R  or 59R? Or is there any point in doing it as it may be a complication for what may already may be a weak signal exchange & why CW was being used anyway?
--
Clive GW4MBS (ex-G8ADP)
Pottering on 6m - 3cm in a valley in IO71XW where any QSO is a triumph of optimism over geography!


Re: Baofeng UV-5R output on 10GHz

John Fell
 

2021-01-19.png
Hi Clive ,
Well done on working Zummerset today .
Must turn on the 10GHz RX - nothing when i check this am.
BeaconSpt.UK uses the list of suffixes shown to elaborate on conditions during QSOs .

Best 73
John
G0API

On Tue, 19 Jan 2021 at 16:50, Clive Elliott GW4MBS via groups.io <humber1ton=btinternet.com@groups.io> wrote:
Shows how the special fence post & the Baofeng helps keep things on track. Nice rain this afternoon copying GB3KBQ, GB3SCX & personal beacon of GW4NOS.

Then the strongest signals I've yet heard from G4UVZ Taunton 59 SSB stronger at times than the 2m signal we also worked on CW 599.

But to give the report T9 always seems anomalous on rain scatter in particular. I believe contacts via aurora can be suffixed A eg 59A on SSB or 599A on CW. Does anyone qualify the tone part of the report with say R & if so is this in addition to say 599R  or 59R? Or is there any point in doing it as it may be a complication for what may already may be a weak signal exchange & why CW was being used anyway?
--
Clive GW4MBS (ex-G8ADP)
Pottering on 6m - 3cm in a valley in IO71XW where any QSO is a triumph of optimism over geography!


Re: 23cm Antenna Issues

John Fell
 

John G8SEQ ,
Spectacular ! 


MET Hole elongation was on the 3 element bolts that pass through the boom and the alum insert ( reduced size SQ section) used as a locating spigot /joint.It all got a bit saggy but did not fall off - may actually have absorbed some of the 100MPH gust flexural stresses ....
73
John
G0API

On Tue, 19 Jan 2021 at 16:11, John E. Beech <john@...> wrote:
Hi John, API,
                    The elongated holes were probably caused by the threaded element mounts working loose. The vibrating
element then causes the thread to act as a file, elongating the holes. I have seen this effect happen recently on a
Rutland 913 wind turbine. It had been allowed to go on for so long that the circular hole was so elongated that it formed
an open slot to the root of the blade and it eventually failed dangerously, the blade letting go from the hub, probably at
high speed ( I wasn't there to witness it). Fortunately no one got in the way of it. The material in this case was a
composite. No corrosion or delamination was apparent.

de John G8SEQ

>  -------Original Message-------
>  From: John Fell <john.g0api@...>
>  To: UKMicrowaves@groups.io <UKMicrowaves@groups.io>
>  Subject: Re: [UKMicrowaves] 23cm Antenna Issues
>  Sent: Jan 19 '21 15:17

>  How strange .
>  I had one of the very first release versions of the MET 19 el Yagi(NBS
>  design data) back in 1980s .
>  That was up my 12m telescopic mast till around 2000 .

>  When I looked at it afterwards I found deep pitting on the forward
>  elements and stretched holes in some of the through boom holes , due
>  to relative movement .
>  It came with a spare aluminium Hex Hd setscrew and I needed it once
>  over the time it was up - probably result of a Rook strike .

>  The alloy used for the elements was 5mm dia and quite a hard drawn
>  mixture - a lot harder (less ductile ) than commercial HE30.

>  At nearly 30Ft long it survived the Oct 87 Hurricane and other odd WX
>  events .Looking at some of the "optimised" current crop of designs it
>  makes me wonder how well they will last .I filled 3 logbooks on 144MHz
>  alone back in the day -GB3ANG almost every day from 600km ain't too
>  bad .

>  73
>  John
>  G0API

>  Remains are still hung up in my garage .

>  On Tue, 19 Jan 2021 at 13:52, John E. Beech <john@...> wrote:

>  > Hi Conrad,
>  > There was a firm, MET* in the UK that made all aluminium antennas
>  > to avoid the corrosion problem. The
>  > only snag was they used cut threads as opposed to rolled threads on
>  > the hollow aluminium screws that held the
>  > elements to the boom. They fatigue failed at the base of the
>  > threads due to vibration in moderate to high winds.
>  >
>  > de John G8SEQ
>  >
>  > * As far as I know this firm is no longer trading, but you can find
>  > pics of their antennas if you use Google.
>  >
>  >> -------Original Message-------
>  >> From: Conrad, PA5Y <g0ruz@...>
>  >> To: UKMicrowaves@groups.io <UKMicrowaves@groups.io>
>  >> Subject: Re: [UKMicrowaves] 23cm Antenna Issues
>  >> Sent: Jan 19 '21 12:40
>  >>
>  >> I am looking forward to using these perfectly designed antennas
>  > that I
>  >> often see touted on various forums. The ones with no dissimilar
>  >> metals, robust mechanically, yet lightweight. They do not corrode
>  > and
>  >> have perfectly symmetrical radiation patterns and have an
>  > excellent
>  >> match in all weathers. They must also be low cost and last 25
>  > years,
>  >> although few of us will need an antenna to last that long.
>  >>
>  >> So far all I see is a lot of 'expertise' and no products.
>  >>
>  >> I have no wish to build antennas, nor do I have any wish to drive
>  >> people out of business.
>  >>
>  >> Conrad
>  >>
>  >> -------------------------
>  >>
>  >> FROM: UKMicrowaves@groups.io <UKMicrowaves@groups.io> on behalf
>  > of Dr.
>  >> David Kirkby, Kirkby Microwave Ltd via groups.io
>  >> <drkirkby=kirkbymicrowave.co.uk@groups.io>
>  >> SENT: 19 January 2021 13:10
>  >> TO: UKMicrowaves@groups.io <UKMicrowaves@groups.io>
>  >> SUBJECT: Re: [UKMicrowaves] 23cm Antenna Issues
>  >>
>  >> On Tue, 19 Jan 2021 at 09:58, alwyn.seeds1
>  > <a.seeds@...>
>  >> wrote:
>  >>
>  >> > Dear Paul,
>  >> >
>  >> > I would n’t waste much of your time on this: return the
>  > antenna as
>  >> > not fit for purpose and ask for a refund.
>  >>
>  >> Me too.
>  >>
>  >> My radio club had an issue with two Innovantennas antenna.
>  >>
>  >> 1) 10 element 2 m OWL fell to bits, as the 3/4” x 3/4” boom
>  > had
>  >> been drilled for 1/2” elements.😢😢😢
>  >>
>  >> 2) We got offered a discount on a 17 2 m element antenna, but it
>  > was
>  >> blinding obvious that was poorly designed mechanically.
>  >>
>  >> In the end, our club Secretary wrote a letter, requesting a full
>  >> refund on the second antenna, which we received.
>  >>
>  >> I see a claim that they Innovantennas are using HFSS, but I think
>  > a
>  >> better investment would have been a basic book on mechanical
>  >> engineering!😂😂 You don’t need expensive 3D EM simulation
>  >> software package to tell you that drilling 1/2” holes in a
>  > 3/4”
>  >> square boom.
>  >>
>  >> There seems an obsession of antenna companies to use expensive
>  >> simulation software, but they ignore the mechanical aspects.
>  >>
>  >> You can search for books on antennas, and find thousands on the
>  > RF
>  >> aspects, but there’s very little about construction. Look for
>  > books
>  >> on wind resistance, and there’s loads on buildings and bridges,
>  > but
>  >> next to nothing on antennas.😢😢
>  >>
>  >> > Regards,
>  >> >
>  >> > Alwyn G8DOH
>  >>
>  >> >
>  >> Dave, G8WRB
>  >>
>  >> --
>  >>
>  >> Dr. David Kirkby,
>  >> Kirkby Microwave Ltd,
>  >> drkirkby@...
>  >> https://www.kirkbymicrowave.co.uk/
>  >> Telephone 01621-680100./ +44 1621 680100
>  >>
>  >> Registered in England & Wales, company number 08914892.
>  >> Registered office:
>  >> Stokes Hall Lodge, Burnham Rd, Althorne, Chelmsford, Essex, CM3
>  > 6DT,
>  >> United Kingdom
>  >>
>  >>








Re: Baofeng UV-5R output on 10GHz

Clive Elliott GW4MBS
 

Shows how the special fence post & the Baofeng helps keep things on track. Nice rain this afternoon copying GB3KBQ, GB3SCX & personal beacon of GW4NOS.

Then the strongest signals I've yet heard from G4UVZ Taunton 59 SSB stronger at times than the 2m signal we also worked on CW 599.

But to give the report T9 always seems anomalous on rain scatter in particular. I believe contacts via aurora can be suffixed A eg 59A on SSB or 599A on CW. Does anyone qualify the tone part of the report with say R & if so is this in addition to say 599R  or 59R? Or is there any point in doing it as it may be a complication for what may already may be a weak signal exchange & why CW was being used anyway?
--
Clive GW4MBS (ex-G8ADP)
Pottering on 6m - 3cm in a valley in IO71XW where any QSO is a triumph of optimism over geography!


Re: 23cm Antenna Issues

Robin Szemeti - G1YFG
 

Under UK and EU consumer law, the product has to be fit for purpose, and the responsibility is with the seller and the seller alone. If the antenna came with some warning about "not for outdoor use" or "do not use within 50 miles of the coast" then maybe the seller would have a case, but otherwise, the law is clear.  It has failed, under warranty during normal use. 

On Tue, 19 Jan 2021 at 16:15, Conrad, PA5Y <g0ruz@...> wrote:
Colin,  what I mean by a box shifter is someone who sells (in our case) technical items with very little understanding of what they are selling. If (for instance) you were to ask the level of the first sidelobe relative to the main lobe they would scan the info on their own website and if it was not there, they would be unlikely to know what you were asking or how to go about getting it. They might ask the manufacturer if it is an expensive item. 

However it is more likely they would move on to selling the next box.

I refer to ALL of the UK radio amateur stores, there are no exceptions. 

There are people at these 'outlets' who have knowledge, but they are too busy to be bothered with a 170 quid antenna and will not be taking telephone orders.

73

Conrad PA5Y

 




From: UKMicrowaves@groups.io <UKMicrowaves@groups.io> on behalf of Conrad, PA5Y via groups.io <g0ruz=g0ruz.com@groups.io>
Sent: 19 January 2021 16:56
To: UKMicrowaves@groups.io <UKMicrowaves@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [UKMicrowaves] 23cm Antenna Issues
 
Completely.

The antenna manufacturer is not a shop. He is an antenna manufacturer. The seller was the shop, part of their stock was this particular antenna.

Conrad


From: UKMicrowaves@groups.io <UKMicrowaves@groups.io> on behalf of Colin Ranson via groups.io <g8lbs=hotmail.com@groups.io>
Sent: 19 January 2021 16:10
To: UKMicrowaves@groups.io <UKMicrowaves@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [UKMicrowaves] 23cm Antenna Issues
 

Conrad

The 'seller' is a classic ham shop box shifter” 

 

Can only take it as meaning that company who manufactures antennas that mostly don’t work very well ?

 

Apologies if I have come to the wrong conclusion.

 

Colin de G8LBS.

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Conrad, PA5Y
Sent: 19 January 2021 14:25
To: UKMicrowaves@groups.io
Subject: Re: [UKMicrowaves] 23cm Antenna Issues

 

The 'seller' is a classic ham shop box shifter. 

 

They don't have a clue. Do you honestly think that any of big amateur radio emporiums would have even think of checking an address to see if somebody buying might need to treat an antenna for their environment? 

 

This is completely unrealistic.

 

So, the onus is on the buyer to mention it IMO.

 

 

 

 

From: UKMicrowaves@groups.io <UKMicrowaves@groups.io> on behalf of Robin Szemeti - G1YFG via groups.io <robin=redpoint.org.uk@groups.io>
Sent: 19 January 2021 15:01
To: UKMicrowaves@groups.io <UKMicrowaves@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [UKMicrowaves] 23cm Antenna Issues

 

 

 

On Tue, 19 Jan 2021 at 12:03, Conrad, PA5Y <g0ruz@...> wrote:

It is fit for purpose, but not fit for a saltwater environment.

 

 

Great Britain is an island, and not a very big one, almost all the island can be considered a salt environment.

 

The seller would have had the buyer address and should have made sure the product supplied was suitable. You cannot expect a buyer to coat the antenna, as this would void the warranty. If the seller knew it needed extra protection in a salt environment, they should coat it before they sell it, or provide instructions to on how to coat it and what with.

 

_._,_._,


--
Robin Szemeti - G1YFG

 


--
Robin Szemeti - G1YFG


Re: 23cm Antenna Issues

Conrad, PA5Y
 

Colin,  what I mean by a box shifter is someone who sells (in our case) technical items with very little understanding of what they are selling. If (for instance) you were to ask the level of the first sidelobe relative to the main lobe they would scan the info on their own website and if it was not there, they would be unlikely to know what you were asking or how to go about getting it. They might ask the manufacturer if it is an expensive item. 

However it is more likely they would move on to selling the next box.

I refer to ALL of the UK radio amateur stores, there are no exceptions. 

There are people at these 'outlets' who have knowledge, but they are too busy to be bothered with a 170 quid antenna and will not be taking telephone orders.

73

Conrad PA5Y

 




From: UKMicrowaves@groups.io <UKMicrowaves@groups.io> on behalf of Conrad, PA5Y via groups.io <g0ruz@...>
Sent: 19 January 2021 16:56
To: UKMicrowaves@groups.io <UKMicrowaves@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [UKMicrowaves] 23cm Antenna Issues
 
Completely.

The antenna manufacturer is not a shop. He is an antenna manufacturer. The seller was the shop, part of their stock was this particular antenna.

Conrad


From: UKMicrowaves@groups.io <UKMicrowaves@groups.io> on behalf of Colin Ranson via groups.io <g8lbs@...>
Sent: 19 January 2021 16:10
To: UKMicrowaves@groups.io <UKMicrowaves@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [UKMicrowaves] 23cm Antenna Issues
 

Conrad

The 'seller' is a classic ham shop box shifter” 

 

Can only take it as meaning that company who manufactures antennas that mostly don’t work very well ?

 

Apologies if I have come to the wrong conclusion.

 

Colin de G8LBS.

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Conrad, PA5Y
Sent: 19 January 2021 14:25
To: UKMicrowaves@groups.io
Subject: Re: [UKMicrowaves] 23cm Antenna Issues

 

The 'seller' is a classic ham shop box shifter. 

 

They don't have a clue. Do you honestly think that any of big amateur radio emporiums would have even think of checking an address to see if somebody buying might need to treat an antenna for their environment? 

 

This is completely unrealistic.

 

So, the onus is on the buyer to mention it IMO.

 

 

 

 

From: UKMicrowaves@groups.io <UKMicrowaves@groups.io> on behalf of Robin Szemeti - G1YFG via groups.io <robin@...>
Sent: 19 January 2021 15:01
To: UKMicrowaves@groups.io <UKMicrowaves@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [UKMicrowaves] 23cm Antenna Issues

 

 

 

On Tue, 19 Jan 2021 at 12:03, Conrad, PA5Y <g0ruz@...> wrote:

It is fit for purpose, but not fit for a saltwater environment.

 

 

Great Britain is an island, and not a very big one, almost all the island can be considered a salt environment.

 

The seller would have had the buyer address and should have made sure the product supplied was suitable. You cannot expect a buyer to coat the antenna, as this would void the warranty. If the seller knew it needed extra protection in a salt environment, they should coat it before they sell it, or provide instructions to on how to coat it and what with.

 

_._,_._,


--
Robin Szemeti - G1YFG

 


Re: 23cm Antenna Issues

KENT BRITAIN
 

Hi Dave

Actually Justin is a fan of FEKO.

I have worked with him on several non-ham antenna projects.

I consider my biggest accomplishment was getting him to abandon that 1/4 wave stub and 
start using a proper balun on his driven elements.

Kent  WA5VJB/G8EMY


On Tuesday, January 19, 2021, 06:10:49 AM CST, Dr. David Kirkby, Kirkby Microwave Ltd <drkirkby@...> wrote:


On Tue, 19 Jan 2021 at 09:58, alwyn.seeds1 <a.seeds@...> wrote:
Dear Paul,

I would n’t waste much of your time on this: return the antenna as not fit for purpose and ask for a refund.

Me too. 

My radio club had an issue with two Innovantennas antenna.

1) 10 element 2 m OWL fell to bits, as the 3/4” x 3/4” boom had been drilled for 1/2” elements.😢😢😢

2) We got offered a discount on a 17 2 m element antenna, but it was blinding obvious that was poorly designed mechanically. 

In the end, our club Secretary wrote a letter, requesting a full refund on the second antenna, which we received. 

I see a claim that they Innovantennas are using HFSS, but I think a better investment would have been a basic book on mechanical engineering!😂😂  You don’t need expensive 3D EM simulation software package to tell you that drilling 1/2” holes in a 3/4” square boom. 

There seems an obsession of antenna companies to use expensive simulation software, but they ignore the mechanical aspects. 

You can search for books on antennas, and find thousands on the RF aspects, but there’s very little about construction. Look for books on wind resistance, and there’s loads on buildings and bridges, but next to nothing on antennas.😢😢 


Regards,

Alwyn G8DOH


Dave, G8WRB 

--
Dr. David Kirkby,
Kirkby Microwave Ltd,
drkirkby@...
https://www.kirkbymicrowave.co.uk/
Telephone 01621-680100./ +44 1621 680100

Registered in England & Wales, company number 08914892.
Registered office:
Stokes Hall Lodge, Burnham Rd, Althorne, Chelmsford, Essex, CM3 6DT, United Kingdom


Re: 23cm Antenna Issues

John E. Beech
 

Hi John, API,
The elongated holes were probably caused by the threaded element mounts working loose. The vibrating
element then causes the thread to act as a file, elongating the holes. I have seen this effect happen recently on a
Rutland 913 wind turbine. It had been allowed to go on for so long that the circular hole was so elongated that it formed
an open slot to the root of the blade and it eventually failed dangerously, the blade letting go from the hub, probably at
high speed ( I wasn't there to witness it). Fortunately no one got in the way of it. The material in this case was a
composite. No corrosion or delamination was apparent.

de John G8SEQ

-------Original Message-------
From: John Fell <john.g0api@gmail.com>
To: UKMicrowaves@groups.io <UKMicrowaves@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [UKMicrowaves] 23cm Antenna Issues
Sent: Jan 19 '21 15:17

How strange .
I had one of the very first release versions of the MET 19 el Yagi(NBS
design data) back in 1980s .
That was up my 12m telescopic mast till around 2000 .

When I looked at it afterwards I found deep pitting on the forward
elements and stretched holes in some of the through boom holes , due
to relative movement .
It came with a spare aluminium Hex Hd setscrew and I needed it once
over the time it was up - probably result of a Rook strike .

The alloy used for the elements was 5mm dia and quite a hard drawn
mixture - a lot harder (less ductile ) than commercial HE30.

At nearly 30Ft long it survived the Oct 87 Hurricane and other odd WX
events .Looking at some of the "optimised" current crop of designs it
makes me wonder how well they will last .I filled 3 logbooks on 144MHz
alone back in the day -GB3ANG almost every day from 600km ain't too
bad .

73
John
G0API

Remains are still hung up in my garage .

On Tue, 19 Jan 2021 at 13:52, John E. Beech <john@g8seq.com> wrote:

> Hi Conrad,
> There was a firm, MET* in the UK that made all aluminium antennas
> to avoid the corrosion problem. The
> only snag was they used cut threads as opposed to rolled threads on
> the hollow aluminium screws that held the
> elements to the boom. They fatigue failed at the base of the
> threads due to vibration in moderate to high winds.
>
> de John G8SEQ
>
> * As far as I know this firm is no longer trading, but you can find
> pics of their antennas if you use Google.
>
>> -------Original Message-------
>> From: Conrad, PA5Y <g0ruz@g0ruz.com>
>> To: UKMicrowaves@groups.io <UKMicrowaves@groups.io>
>> Subject: Re: [UKMicrowaves] 23cm Antenna Issues
>> Sent: Jan 19 '21 12:40
>>
>> I am looking forward to using these perfectly designed antennas
> that I
>> often see touted on various forums. The ones with no dissimilar
>> metals, robust mechanically, yet lightweight. They do not corrode
> and
>> have perfectly symmetrical radiation patterns and have an
> excellent
>> match in all weathers. They must also be low cost and last 25
> years,
>> although few of us will need an antenna to last that long.
>>
>> So far all I see is a lot of 'expertise' and no products.
>>
>> I have no wish to build antennas, nor do I have any wish to drive
>> people out of business.
>>
>> Conrad
>>
>> -------------------------
>>
>> FROM: UKMicrowaves@groups.io <UKMicrowaves@groups.io> on behalf
> of Dr.
>> David Kirkby, Kirkby Microwave Ltd via groups.io
>> <drkirkby=kirkbymicrowave.co.uk@groups.io>
>> SENT: 19 January 2021 13:10
>> TO: UKMicrowaves@groups.io <UKMicrowaves@groups.io>
>> SUBJECT: Re: [UKMicrowaves] 23cm Antenna Issues
>>
>> On Tue, 19 Jan 2021 at 09:58, alwyn.seeds1
> <a.seeds@synoptika.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Dear Paul,
>> >
>> > I would n’t waste much of your time on this: return the
> antenna as
>> > not fit for purpose and ask for a refund.
>>
>> Me too.
>>
>> My radio club had an issue with two Innovantennas antenna.
>>
>> 1) 10 element 2 m OWL fell to bits, as the 3/4” x 3/4” boom
> had
>> been drilled for 1/2” elements.😢😢😢
>>
>> 2) We got offered a discount on a 17 2 m element antenna, but it
> was
>> blinding obvious that was poorly designed mechanically.
>>
>> In the end, our club Secretary wrote a letter, requesting a full
>> refund on the second antenna, which we received.
>>
>> I see a claim that they Innovantennas are using HFSS, but I think
> a
>> better investment would have been a basic book on mechanical
>> engineering!😂😂 You don’t need expensive 3D EM simulation
>> software package to tell you that drilling 1/2” holes in a
> 3/4”
>> square boom.
>>
>> There seems an obsession of antenna companies to use expensive
>> simulation software, but they ignore the mechanical aspects.
>>
>> You can search for books on antennas, and find thousands on the
> RF
>> aspects, but there’s very little about construction. Look for
> books
>> on wind resistance, and there’s loads on buildings and bridges,
> but
>> next to nothing on antennas.😢😢
>>
>> > Regards,
>> >
>> > Alwyn G8DOH
>>
>> >
>> Dave, G8WRB
>>
>> --
>>
>> Dr. David Kirkby,
>> Kirkby Microwave Ltd,
>> drkirkby@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk
>> https://www.kirkbymicrowave.co.uk/
>> Telephone 01621-680100./ +44 1621 680100
>>
>> Registered in England & Wales, company number 08914892.
>> Registered office:
>> Stokes Hall Lodge, Burnham Rd, Althorne, Chelmsford, Essex, CM3
> 6DT,
>> United Kingdom
>>
>>


Re: 23cm Antenna Issues

Conrad, PA5Y
 

Completely.

The antenna manufacturer is not a shop. He is an antenna manufacturer. The seller was the shop, part of their stock was this particular antenna.

Conrad


From: UKMicrowaves@groups.io <UKMicrowaves@groups.io> on behalf of Colin Ranson via groups.io <g8lbs@...>
Sent: 19 January 2021 16:10
To: UKMicrowaves@groups.io <UKMicrowaves@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [UKMicrowaves] 23cm Antenna Issues
 

Conrad

The 'seller' is a classic ham shop box shifter” 

 

Can only take it as meaning that company who manufactures antennas that mostly don’t work very well ?

 

Apologies if I have come to the wrong conclusion.

 

Colin de G8LBS.

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Conrad, PA5Y
Sent: 19 January 2021 14:25
To: UKMicrowaves@groups.io
Subject: Re: [UKMicrowaves] 23cm Antenna Issues

 

The 'seller' is a classic ham shop box shifter. 

 

They don't have a clue. Do you honestly think that any of big amateur radio emporiums would have even think of checking an address to see if somebody buying might need to treat an antenna for their environment? 

 

This is completely unrealistic.

 

So, the onus is on the buyer to mention it IMO.

 

 

 

 

From: UKMicrowaves@groups.io <UKMicrowaves@groups.io> on behalf of Robin Szemeti - G1YFG via groups.io <robin@...>
Sent: 19 January 2021 15:01
To: UKMicrowaves@groups.io <UKMicrowaves@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [UKMicrowaves] 23cm Antenna Issues

 

 

 

On Tue, 19 Jan 2021 at 12:03, Conrad, PA5Y <g0ruz@...> wrote:

It is fit for purpose, but not fit for a saltwater environment.

 

 

Great Britain is an island, and not a very big one, almost all the island can be considered a salt environment.

 

The seller would have had the buyer address and should have made sure the product supplied was suitable. You cannot expect a buyer to coat the antenna, as this would void the warranty. If the seller knew it needed extra protection in a salt environment, they should coat it before they sell it, or provide instructions to on how to coat it and what with.

 

_._,_._,


--
Robin Szemeti - G1YFG

 


Re: 23cm Antenna Issues

Ralph
 

Good afternoon,

 

I have had a 10el LFA which had lasted for some considerable time

(many years) without a problem until about 9 months ago.

There was no sign at all of corrosion on any of the parts.

Though due to lack of my usual maintenance on the aerial it

finally developed a High SWR which was due to  not enough

Sealing compound around the coaxial  terminals on the driven element.

This aerial had until then served me well and was excellent

on my hunt for DX on 2m. I can see the sea (English Channel 12 miles away)

from the antenna and we have really high winds 90mph at times and salt

comes in with it.

I have change my LFA for the newer design one which has

a different matching arrangement, though I did not have to change it.

I worked D4 at 4000km + with it.

 

I have heard though at one stage on the grape vine that they

Out sourced the making up of these aerials to a sub contractor,

I think in Spain,  maybe, possibly,  the sourcing of the material

for them was not critical  enough to cope with the UK environment.

 

You may have been unfortunate to get one of those .

 

 

73

Ralph

G4ALY

 

 

 

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Robin Szemeti - G1YFG
Sent: 19 January 2021 14:02
To: UKMicrowaves@groups.io
Subject: Re: [UKMicrowaves] 23cm Antenna Issues

 

 

 

On Tue, 19 Jan 2021 at 12:03, Conrad, PA5Y <g0ruz@...> wrote:

It is fit for purpose, but not fit for a saltwater environment.

 

 

Great Britain is an island, and not a very big one, almost all the island can be considered a salt environment.

 

The seller would have had the buyer address and should have made sure the product supplied was suitable. You cannot expect a buyer to coat the antenna, as this would void the warranty. If the seller knew it needed extra protection in a salt environment, they should coat it before they sell it, or provide instructions to on how to coat it and what with.

 

_._,_._,


--
Robin Szemeti - G1YFG

 


Re: 23cm Antenna Issues

John Fell
 

How strange .
I had one of the very first release versions of the MET 19 el Yagi(NBS design data) back in 1980s .
That was up my 12m telescopic mast till around 2000 .

When I looked at it afterwards I found deep pitting on the forward elements and stretched holes in some of the through boom holes , due to relative movement .
It came with a spare aluminium Hex Hd setscrew and I needed it once over the time it was up - probably result of a Rook strike .

The alloy used for the elements was 5mm dia and quite a hard drawn mixture - a lot harder (less ductile ) than commercial HE30.

At nearly 30Ft long it survived the Oct 87 Hurricane and other odd WX events .Looking at some of the "optimised" current crop of designs it makes me wonder how well they will last .I filled 3 logbooks on 144MHz alone back in the day -GB3ANG almost every day from 600km ain't too bad .

73
John
G0API


 
Remains are still hung up in my garage .

On Tue, 19 Jan 2021 at 13:52, John E. Beech <john@...> wrote:
Hi Conrad,
               There was a firm, MET*  in the UK that made all aluminium antennas to avoid the corrosion problem. The
only snag was they used cut threads as opposed to rolled threads on the hollow aluminium screws that held the
elements to the boom. They fatigue failed at the base of the threads due to vibration in moderate to high winds.

de John G8SEQ

* As far as I know this firm is no longer trading, but you can find pics of their antennas if you use Google.

>  -------Original Message-------
>  From: Conrad, PA5Y <g0ruz@...>
>  To: UKMicrowaves@groups.io <UKMicrowaves@groups.io>
>  Subject: Re: [UKMicrowaves] 23cm Antenna Issues
>  Sent: Jan 19 '21 12:40

>  I am looking forward to using these perfectly designed antennas that I
>  often see touted on various forums. The ones with no dissimilar
>  metals, robust mechanically, yet lightweight. They do not corrode and
>  have perfectly symmetrical radiation patterns and have an excellent
>  match in all weathers. They must also be low cost and last 25 years,
>  although few of us will need an antenna to last that long.

>  So far all I see is a lot of 'expertise' and no products.

>  I have no wish to build antennas, nor do I have any wish to drive
>  people out of business.

>  Conrad

>  -------------------------

>  FROM: UKMicrowaves@groups.io <UKMicrowaves@groups.io> on behalf of Dr.
>  David Kirkby, Kirkby Microwave Ltd via groups.io
>  <drkirkby=kirkbymicrowave.co.uk@groups.io>
>  SENT: 19 January 2021 13:10
>  TO: UKMicrowaves@groups.io <UKMicrowaves@groups.io>
>  SUBJECT: Re: [UKMicrowaves] 23cm Antenna Issues

>  On Tue, 19 Jan 2021 at 09:58, alwyn.seeds1 <a.seeds@...>
>  wrote:

>  > Dear Paul,
>  >
>  > I would n’t waste much of your time on this: return the antenna as
>  > not fit for purpose and ask for a refund.

>  Me too.

>  My radio club had an issue with two Innovantennas antenna.

>  1) 10 element 2 m OWL fell to bits, as the 3/4” x 3/4” boom had
>  been drilled for 1/2” elements.😢😢😢

>  2) We got offered a discount on a 17 2 m element antenna, but it was
>  blinding obvious that was poorly designed mechanically.

>  In the end, our club Secretary wrote a letter, requesting a full
>  refund on the second antenna, which we received.

>  I see a claim that they Innovantennas are using HFSS, but I think a
>  better investment would have been a basic book on mechanical
>  engineering!😂😂 You don’t need expensive 3D EM simulation
>  software package to tell you that drilling 1/2” holes in a 3/4”
>  square boom.

>  There seems an obsession of antenna companies to use expensive
>  simulation software, but they ignore the mechanical aspects.

>  You can search for books on antennas, and find thousands on the RF
>  aspects, but there’s very little about construction. Look for books
>  on wind resistance, and there’s loads on buildings and bridges, but
>  next to nothing on antennas.😢😢

>  > Regards,
>  >
>  > Alwyn G8DOH

>  >
>  Dave, G8WRB

>  --

>  Dr. David Kirkby,
>  Kirkby Microwave Ltd,
drkirkby@...
https://www.kirkbymicrowave.co.uk/
>  Telephone 01621-680100./ +44 1621 680100

>  Registered in England & Wales, company number 08914892.
>  Registered office:
>  Stokes Hall Lodge, Burnham Rd, Althorne, Chelmsford, Essex, CM3 6DT,
>  United Kingdom








Re: 23cm Antenna Issues

Colin Ranson
 

Conrad

The 'seller' is a classic ham shop box shifter” 

 

Can only take it as meaning that company who manufactures antennas that mostly don’t work very well ?

 

Apologies if I have come to the wrong conclusion.

 

Colin de G8LBS.

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Conrad, PA5Y
Sent: 19 January 2021 14:25
To: UKMicrowaves@groups.io
Subject: Re: [UKMicrowaves] 23cm Antenna Issues

 

The 'seller' is a classic ham shop box shifter. 

 

They don't have a clue. Do you honestly think that any of big amateur radio emporiums would have even think of checking an address to see if somebody buying might need to treat an antenna for their environment? 

 

This is completely unrealistic.

 

So, the onus is on the buyer to mention it IMO.

 

 

 

 

From: UKMicrowaves@groups.io <UKMicrowaves@groups.io> on behalf of Robin Szemeti - G1YFG via groups.io <robin@...>
Sent: 19 January 2021 15:01
To: UKMicrowaves@groups.io <UKMicrowaves@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [UKMicrowaves] 23cm Antenna Issues

 

 

 

On Tue, 19 Jan 2021 at 12:03, Conrad, PA5Y <g0ruz@...> wrote:

It is fit for purpose, but not fit for a saltwater environment.

 

 

Great Britain is an island, and not a very big one, almost all the island can be considered a salt environment.

 

The seller would have had the buyer address and should have made sure the product supplied was suitable. You cannot expect a buyer to coat the antenna, as this would void the warranty. If the seller knew it needed extra protection in a salt environment, they should coat it before they sell it, or provide instructions to on how to coat it and what with.

 

_._,_._,


--
Robin Szemeti - G1YFG

 


Re: 23cm Antenna Issues

Colin Ranson
 

Et al,

 

Not going to get into the whys and wherefores of this debate but please let me inform readers of what I have done in the past with coating aluminium elements, plastic fittings etc.

 

  1. Because I could and (b) because I had access to materials having worked in automotive bodyshop and furniture coating supply for many years I used a product then which was a gloss, isocyanate cured clear coating for metallic finish on cars (expensive) and also the same for furniture. (inexpensive) I found out, quite by accident that the chemical make up of these were virtually the same (acrylic based lacquer and Isocyanate curing agent is the same the world over.... albeit with varying ‘strengths’.

To get to the point. As supply factors used to fill blank aerosols with single part paint to order for cars I got a three made up with 2 part furniture lacquer for a job at home. As I had an aero left I thought ‘what the hell’ and coated a six ele 6m beam I had just made (year 2000), all over – plastic element mounts as well. When I took it down 4 years later everything was still bright, no corrosion.

I still have the elements in my shed, still bright, no peeling of the coating, just scratches. This goes against all conventions because coatings are not supposed to stay stuck to ally unless it has been ‘acid etch primed ‘ !

 

So, just a warning,  with coatings containing Isocyanate curing agent  the user must wear a fresh air supplied mask (no other mask will do) when spraying or you MIGHT succumb to a severe allergic reaction of the lungs and snuff it.    Brushing it is ok but it does ‘go off’ very quickly. ( I use it in acylic (not polyurethane) household paint on small or long thin areas)

 

So if you can get hold of some material from a ‘very friendly’ friend in the business give it a try but please observe safety precautions.

 

I have no idea how well these ready to use clear lacquer aerosols as supplied to the public will work and the coatings subsequent longevity, I have never used any on outside aluminium.   I have used it on ally front panels and find it chips easily, unlike the cured 2 part stuff.

 

Anybody need any help with painting enclosures etc please contact me offline.

 

Best regards

 

 

Colin de G8LBS.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Robin Szemeti - G1YFG
Sent: 19 January 2021 14:03
To: UKMicrowaves@groups.io
Subject: Re: [UKMicrowaves] 23cm Antenna Issues

 

 

 

On Tue, 19 Jan 2021 at 12:03, Conrad, PA5Y <g0ruz@...> wrote:

It is fit for purpose, but not fit for a saltwater environment.

 

 

Great Britain is an island, and not a very big one, almost all the island can be considered a salt environment.

 

The seller would have had the buyer address and should have made sure the product supplied was suitable. You cannot expect a buyer to coat the antenna, as this would void the warranty. If the seller knew it needed extra protection in a salt environment, they should coat it before they sell it, or provide instructions to on how to coat it and what with.

 

_._,_._,


--
Robin Szemeti - G1YFG

 


Re: 23cm Antenna Issues

Paul Evans W4/VP9KF
 

OT. At least a couple of us on here worked with Paul Turner at Plessey Microwave. He moved on to Jaybeam (production manager) in about 1988. He kept the standards up and they were always a wonderfully sturdy antenna / aerial in the UK environment.

Following the sailing comments, most boats in the USA use long extrusions cut to length for the given model. However, they are NOT anodized, they are sprayed with AwlGrip. After 15-20 years bubbling of the aluminium starts around the 316 stainless rigging plates. My business around 2000 did a number of re-rigs of bluewater cruising boats. Using a crane to lift out the mast was the expensive bit. However, the corrosion was merely cosmetic and each bolt hole took a very quick run around with a fine finisher. However, down at the microwave scale this crevice corrosion is a whole different matter if at a critical location. There's no excuse for rusting stainless. Use UK or Swedish parts and they'll be better than 316 USA sourced or anywhere else.

No idea about the dielectric properties of AwlGrip, but they don't call it AllDrip for no reason.... it takes a lot of skill to spray
--
73, Paul Evans G4BKI [VP9KF]


Re: 23cm Antenna Issues

Conrad, PA5Y
 

Yes, Alwyn Jay beam are magnificently robust antennas. They are legendary and with good reason.  However, they are old sub optimal designs and have quite short boom lengths. These days If someone could apply Jaybeam's excellent mechanical design with modern antenna design, then that would be successful. Would such materials work for 6-8m long antennas and still be manageable?

However, they would not be low cost, or lightweight that's for sure. 

Anyway, if you want a job doing right, you either do it yourself or accept some compromises. You should not expect much from an amateur radio shop. What we do is quite esoteric.

73

Conrad




From: UKMicrowaves@groups.io <UKMicrowaves@groups.io> on behalf of alwyn.seeds1 via groups.io <a.seeds@...>
Sent: 19 January 2021 15:32
To: UK Microwaves groups.io <UKMicrowaves@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [UKMicrowaves] 23cm Antenna Issues
 
Dear Conrad,

My oldest 2m Jaybeam aerial is from 1972, so 50th Anniversary, next year- works splendidly and mechanically fine, spent 34 years within 4km of the English Channel.

The only repair needed over that time has been to replace one of the spin galvanised screws that rusted through.

As I drive around the country, I still see Jaybeam Band 3 skeleton slot TV aerials from the 1960s- that’s quality.

Bill Sykes, G2HCG, founder of Jaybeam, has a number of very good aerial patents to his name as well as being a pretty good businessman- a read of his stories about the aerial business is well worthwhile.

I believe he’s still active on HF.

From Jaybeam a number of other aerial manufacturers spun out in the Northampton area; Radiostructures is still going and their professional aerials also have a reputation for long life.

Regards,

Alwyn G8DOH
_____________________________________________________

Alwyn Seeds, Director
114 Beaufort Street (Management) Company Ltd.,
114 Beaufort Street,
London,
SW3 6BU

114 Beaufort Street (Management) Company Ltd., Registered in England and Wales: No. 02797775 Registered Office Address: 114 Beaufort Street, London, SW3 6BU
______________________________________________________


Re: 23cm Antenna Issues

alwyn.seeds1
 

Dear Conrad,

My oldest 2m Jaybeam aerial is from 1972, so 50th Anniversary, next year- works splendidly and mechanically fine, spent 34 years within 4km of the English Channel.

The only repair needed over that time has been to replace one of the spin galvanised screws that rusted through.

As I drive around the country, I still see Jaybeam Band 3 skeleton slot TV aerials from the 1960s- that’s quality.

Bill Sykes, G2HCG, founder of Jaybeam, has a number of very good aerial patents to his name as well as being a pretty good businessman- a read of his stories about the aerial business is well worthwhile.

I believe he’s still active on HF.

From Jaybeam a number of other aerial manufacturers spun out in the Northampton area; Radiostructures is still going and their professional aerials also have a reputation for long life.

Regards,

Alwyn G8DOH
_____________________________________________________

Alwyn Seeds, Director
114 Beaufort Street (Management) Company Ltd.,
114 Beaufort Street,
London,
SW3 6BU

114 Beaufort Street (Management) Company Ltd., Registered in England and Wales: No. 02797775 Registered Office Address: 114 Beaufort Street, London, SW3 6BU
______________________________________________________

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