Date   

Re: Stand alone JT4G

John McCarthy
 

great looks like the Pi might not be the way to go then as those netbooks are around £20 with screen and sound in/out.

John


Re: Stand alone JT4G

Andy G4JNT
 

I haveWin 7 Starter on my HP notebook.   Its a horrible OS for general purpose use, too deliberately cut back.  
 But it runs WSJT-10   and  -X OK.  

Also have an old Dell latitude notebook ,  Few hundred MHz ish processor  witha mere 500Meg memory !  That runs WSJT-X (slowly) ,  and WSJT10 perfectly well.


A


On 14 June 2016 at 19:29, g7jtt@... [ukmicrowaves] <ukmicrowaves@...> wrote:
 

one of the netbooks with a Intel Atom chip they often run windows 7 starter many used to surf Facebook from the sofa. But I guess you've answered it in that its later than xp so should run the older version but don't suppose it will cope with to much more?

John


On Tuesday, 14 June 2016, 19:20, "Andy Talbot andy.g4jnt@... [ukmicrowaves]" <ukmicrowaves@...> wrote:


 
Not what you mean by "cut down"
If they run an OS any later than Win 98, they'll run WSJT - at least the original version

The new WSJT-X under development loads more processing into teh software to allow multiple decoding for some modes.  And that chews up processor power.
But single JT4 decodes hardly taxes things

'jnt


On 14 June 2016 at 19:16, g7jtt@... [ukmicrowaves] <ukmicrowaves@...> wrote:
 
You make a good point Andy just looked on Ebay and I'm surprised how cheap they are, what about the cut down laptops/netbooks would one of those run JT ? as they are small enough and consume less power that their larger cousins.

John 





Re: Stand alone JT4G

John McCarthy
 

one of the netbooks with a Intel Atom chip they often run windows 7 starter many used to surf Facebook from the sofa. But I guess you've answered it in that its later than xp so should run the older version but don't suppose it will cope with to much more?

John


On Tuesday, 14 June 2016, 19:20, "Andy Talbot andy.g4jnt@... [ukmicrowaves]" wrote:


 
Not what you mean by "cut down"
If they run an OS any later than Win 98, they'll run WSJT - at least the original version

The new WSJT-X under development loads more processing into teh software to allow multiple decoding for some modes.  And that chews up processor power.
But single JT4 decodes hardly taxes things

'jnt


On 14 June 2016 at 19:16, g7jtt@... [ukmicrowaves] <ukmicrowaves@...> wrote:
 
You make a good point Andy just looked on Ebay and I'm surprised how cheap they are, what about the cut down laptops/netbooks would one of those run JT ? as they are small enough and consume less power that their larger cousins.

John 




Re: Stand alone JT4G

Andy G4JNT
 

Not what you mean by "cut down"
If they run an OS any later than Win 98, they'll run WSJT - at least the original version

The new WSJT-X under development loads more processing into teh software to allow multiple decoding for some modes.  And that chews up processor power.
But single JT4 decodes hardly taxes things

'jnt


On 14 June 2016 at 19:16, g7jtt@... [ukmicrowaves] <ukmicrowaves@...> wrote:
 

You make a good point Andy just looked on Ebay and I'm surprised how cheap they are, what about the cut down laptops/netbooks would one of those run JT ? as they are small enough and consume less power that their larger cousins.


John 



Re: Stand alone JT4G

John McCarthy
 

You make a good point Andy just looked on Ebay and I'm surprised how cheap they are, what about the cut down laptops/netbooks would one of those run JT ? as they are small enough and consume less power that their larger cousins.

John 


Re: Stand alone JT4G

Andy G4JNT
 

What about a small - older second hand perhaps - notebook. Like the HP Ones.   A few tens of quid from boot sales / junk sales and more than adequate for WSJT. Which by the tiome youv'e added few perpherals can come out cheaper than a RPi.    Mine runs from 15V and takes 1.5A, so a simple switcher from a 12V battery keeps it going from a portable / mobile venue.

Mine only has microphone input and phone output on a single 4-way jack.  But nothing two resistors and a custom lead can't cope with.   If you need I/O. there's always the FTDI USB COm port family

Andy  G4JNT


On 14 June 2016 at 09:58, 'g7jtt@...' g7jtt@... [ukmicrowaves] <ukmicrowaves@...> wrote:
 

Hi John this is why I like the idea of something like the Pi it saves lugging out an expensive laptop plus by all accounts the Pi can be used with the SDR to. If it is possible to use a Pi with a small touch screen with JT4/SDR installed there are enough USB sound cards that work with the Pi plus with all the GDO pins available one could be used for put as well ? Maybe this could become a uwave club project ? 

All best John


 

I would start with JT4G as it has proved itself over last few years to be resilient to extremes of RS /frequency instability ,manual tracking etc .
I purchased a laptop to handle JT operations out /P but the additional effort needed does place demands on the primary station operation .
A simple dedicated audio interfaced box for JT in/out would good , leaving the SDR to monopolise the laptop.
John
G0API



Re: Stand alone JT4G

John McCarthy
 

Oops "ptt" not "put" 😖


On Tue, 14 Jun, 2016 at 9:58, 'g7jtt@...' g7jtt@... [ukmicrowaves]
wrote:
 

Hi John this is why I like the idea of something like the Pi it saves lugging out an expensive laptop plus by all accounts the Pi can be used with the SDR to. If it is possible to use a Pi with a small touch screen with JT4/SDR installed there are enough USB sound cards that work with the Pi plus with all the GDO pins available one could be used for put as well ? Maybe this could become a uwave club project ? 

All best John


 

I would start with JT4G as it has proved itself over last few years to be resilient to extremes of RS /frequency instability ,manual tracking etc .
I purchased a laptop to handle JT operations out /P but the additional effort needed does place demands on the primary station operation .
A simple dedicated audio interfaced box for JT in/out would good , leaving the SDR to monopolise the laptop.
John
G0API


Re: Stand alone JT4G

John McCarthy
 

Hi John this is why I like the idea of something like the Pi it saves lugging out an expensive laptop plus by all accounts the Pi can be used with the SDR to. If it is possible to use a Pi with a small touch screen with JT4/SDR installed there are enough USB sound cards that work with the Pi plus with all the GDO pins available one could be used for put as well ? Maybe this could become a uwave club project ? 
All best John


On Tue, 14 Jun, 2016 at 9:44, John Fell john.g0api@... [ukmicrowaves]
wrote:
 

I would start with JT4G as it has proved itself over last few years to be resilient to extremes of RS /frequency instability ,manual tracking etc .
I purchased a laptop to handle JT operations out /P but the additional effort needed does place demands on the primary station operation .
A simple dedicated audio interfaced box for JT in/out would good , leaving the SDR to monopolise the laptop.
John
G0API


Re: Stand alone JT4G

John Fell
 

I would start with JT4G as it has proved itself over last few years to be resilient to extremes of RS /frequency instability ,manual tracking etc .
I purchased a laptop to handle JT operations out /P but the additional effort needed does place demands on the primary station operation .
A simple dedicated audio interfaced box for JT in/out would good , leaving the SDR to monopolise the laptop.
John
G0API


Re: Stand alone JT4G

John McCarthy
 

Thanks for getting back Derek I have an old first gen Pi but that's tied up as a media server, so would be looking at getting another one for this project. Although looking around there are lots of different types around now so need advice on what would be best to use. Oh and yes about time I played with Linux a bit more. To Andy and Noel if we can get this together then I think Andy is right with regards JT4 as a starting point as really rain scatter is the  most useful mode your likely to use in /p situations. The other modes IE aircraft scatter is most likely something you'd do from home.
73 John


On Tue, 14 Jun, 2016 at 7:20, Derek Kozel derek.kozel@... [ukmicrowaves]
wrote:
 

Hello John,

I have run it on an Odroid XU4, similar to a Raspberry Pi. WSJT works just fine. I'm working on a module for GNU Radio for all the modes. I use it portable on 10 GHz.

What distribution are you running on your Raspberry Pi and what version of the hardware is it? I have one of the old Pi's around and could try creating some instructions for installing WSJT on it. It sounds like a good oportunity to get your feet wet with Linux as well. :)

Regards,
Derek
AG6PO

On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 10:46 PM, g7jtt@... [ukmicrowaves] <ukmicrowaves@...> wrote:
 

Hi all has anyone managed to get JT4G working on something like the Raspberry Pi ? The reason I ask is when going portable you have enough to take and power consumption becomes a big concern. So rather than relying on the laptop with its limited Battery life something like the Pi would mean I'd be more inclined to use JT4 and hopefully make more weak contacts. It would also encourage (I would think) more portable operators to use it to, even the backpacker operators. Now I know there is a port of this for Linux, but not really being a Linux guru I wouldn't know where to start. So if anyone does want to take up the challenge and produce a working image file I'd certainly give it a try.

Cheers John



Re: Stand alone JT4G

Andy G4JNT
 

Depends mostly on the propagation mechanism and what you want to do.

JT4G was selected for microwave beacons as it uses the widest tone spacing of 315Hz , thus allowing use with extreme rainscatter paths.   It has proved its own on 10GHz and 24GHz RS  where spreading has widened the signals to 200 - 300Hz - the same as the tone spacing.   It has a  4.4Hz noise, or signalling bandwidth (don't confuse that with the waveform width)

JT65B or C uses a narrower tone spacing, just 5.4Hz  or 10.8Hz respectively   and a noise bandwidth of 2.7Hz.  The latter, along with better error correction,  makes it more sensitive by about 2.2dB than JT4.   But the narrow spacing means JT65 is only suited to weak signal paths with little scattering compared with RS - Tropo, diffraction, EME 
etc,

For short duration openings, where bursts of a few seconds of strong signal are likely, aircraft scatter, then ISCAT comes into its own.  No error correction, and a signal bandwidth of 20Hz or 40Hz depending on flavour A or B means it holds to comparison in weak signal terms, but may capture that fleeting  few  seconds of strong signal.   It only needs about 5 seconds to get a message through.

So no simple answer, use whichever is best suited, but JT4G would be a reasonable one to go with for general use

Andy  G4JNT




On 14 June 2016 at 08:54, 'Noel Matthews' noel@... [ukmicrowaves] <ukmicrowaves@...> wrote:
 

I’m sure it’s documented somewhere but can someone confirm what JT modes we should be looking to use for terrestrial QSOs on 10 GHz.

73

Noel – G8GTZ



Re: LO Phase Noise and wideband front ends

Christopher Bartram <cbartram@...>
 

I haven't seen the original post on this , but, I suspect that the problem isn't Phase Noise. For far too many people phase noise is a pretty diffuse concept, and it gets blamed for a lot of effects for which it's not responsible!

Phase noise is, in effect, a form of wideband frequency modulation, and falls away quite quickly at 20dB/octave as you move away from the carrier. What I believe, from reading Andy's post is that the problem is amplitude domain noise (AM noise) caused by eg. amplifiers in the signal path. This can have a pretty flat frequency/amplitude characteristic.

'Phase noise' gets the blame for many effects which are caused by AM noise, and is a particular nuisance in wideband systems, but it behaves differently to AM noise. Phase noise won't be cancelled in a balanced mixer, but AM noise will be.

73

Chris
GW4DGU


Re: Stand alone JT4G

Noel G8GTZ
 

I’m sure it’s documented somewhere but can someone confirm what JT modes we should be looking to use for terrestrial QSOs on 10 GHz.

73

Noel – G8GTZ


Re: LO Phase Noise and wideband front ends

Andy G4JNT
 



On 13 June 2016 at 20:44, Michel Bourdon michel.m.bourdon@... [ukmicrowaves] <ukmicrowaves@...> wrote:
 

Hello
I think this noise increase in an IF bandwidth  (due to LO PN) only happens when large signal levels are received  (blocking).

Input microwave Noise multiplied by LO PN Will produce even lower levels.  I don't think that NF could be altered.

73 Michel F6DZK

L

Yes indeed, I think my thoughts about wide input bandwidth and wideband  Phase Noise were one of those cases of intuition and instinct going wrong.

After posting in parallel to the RSGBTech Yahoo Group, the two Peters, 'RZP and 'PLX,  responded with sensible suggestions.   G3PLX confirmed the thoughts of Michel, above,  which I was  I was coming round to anyway, after getting nowhere with a calculation method;  that mixing noise alone has no contribution. Bandwidths cancel and there is no net increase in noise in a given bandwidth.

G3RZP  may then have hit the nail on the head when he mentioned phase noise falling into the Rx passband.   And more than likely explains the real observed effect of carriers being less "readable" with a poor wideband PN  synth as the LO, over a crystal / multiplier source, in spite of the fact the carrier itself is 'clean'.

For microwave systems with a low IF, like 144MHz, a something-like -140dBc/Hz phase noise at 144MHz will leak across the mixer rejection.  A simple two diode balanced mixer may only show 20dB rejection, so for a synth delivering +10dBm into the mixer, there is  -116dBm of noise in a 2.5kHz bandwidth. [*]    Which, unless there is plenty of front end gain is very definitely going to be noticed.

[*]   -140dBc/Hz + 10dBm - 20dB mixer rejection + 10.LOG(2500Hz) = -116dBm

The comments from the two Peters in their two RSGBTech posts are copied  below

Andy  G4JNT

From the RSGBTech Group :

From G3PLX

If you start by supposing that your mixer is a straight multiplication (in 
DSP terms) of the signal and the local oscillator, and further suppose that 
your signal is a carrier poking up above flat wideband noise, and your local 
oscillator is ALSO a carrier with flat wideband noise behind it, then I 
think you should be able to calculate the contribution to the intermediate 
frequency output which arises from the signal-path noise multiplied by the 
local-oscillator noise. This will be an infinite sum if your two wideband 
noises are infinitely wide, so you probably do have to guess at a realistic 
upper limit to it. This will be a 2nd-order term, in that it will increase 
by 2dB for every 1 dB that you increase both the signal-path and local 
oscillator noise levels.

Then you subtract 3dB, on the basis that your mixer is being driven hard by 
the local oscillator so that the amplitude of the local oscillator doesn't 
come into the equation, only the phase.

I suspect that you will find that if your local oscillator phase noise, 
measured in the conventional way is -P dBc/Hz then the magnitude of the 
noise that is bothering you will be of the order of -2*P. So small that it 
shouldn't keep you awake at night.


From G3RZP

The situation is also complicated by the fact that the phase noise of the LO 
may not be negligible on the receiver frequency, and is thus also down 
converted to the IF: it can be the dominant factor and was one reason for 
later WW2 microwave radars going to a balanced mixer using a hybrid T. 
Similarly, phase noise at the image frequency will be rejected in the 
same way only by the amount of image rejection and balance. The problem 
is very similar to that of phase noise in Direct Conversion receivers 
being mixed down to base band and limiting achievable sensitivity.

Somewhere, I have reference for the effect of phase noise at signal 
frequency in early microwave radars, but it isn't immediately to hand 
and I'm not going through 20 feet of shelved books to try and fi


Re: Stand alone JT4G

Derek Kozel <derek.kozel@...>
 

Hello John,

I have run it on an Odroid XU4, similar to a Raspberry Pi. WSJT works just fine. I'm working on a module for GNU Radio for all the modes. I use it portable on 10 GHz.

What distribution are you running on your Raspberry Pi and what version of the hardware is it? I have one of the old Pi's around and could try creating some instructions for installing WSJT on it. It sounds like a good oportunity to get your feet wet with Linux as well. :)

Regards,
Derek
AG6PO

On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 10:46 PM, g7jtt@... [ukmicrowaves] <ukmicrowaves@...> wrote:
 

Hi all has anyone managed to get JT4G working on something like the Raspberry Pi ? The reason I ask is when going portable you have enough to take and power consumption becomes a big concern. So rather than relying on the laptop with its limited Battery life something like the Pi would mean I'd be more inclined to use JT4 and hopefully make more weak contacts. It would also encourage (I would think) more portable operators to use it to, even the backpacker operators. Now I know there is a port of this for Linux, but not really being a Linux guru I wouldn't know where to start. So if anyone does want to take up the challenge and produce a working image file I'd certainly give it a try.

Cheers John



Stand alone JT4G

John McCarthy
 

Hi all has anyone managed to get JT4G working on something like the Raspberry Pi ? The reason I ask is when going portable you have enough to take and power consumption becomes a big concern. So rather than relying on the laptop with its limited Battery life something like the Pi would mean I'd be more inclined to use JT4 and hopefully make more weak contacts. It would also encourage (I would think) more portable operators to use it to, even the backpacker operators. Now I know there is a port of this for Linux, but not really being a Linux guru I wouldn't know where to start. So if anyone does want to take up the challenge and produce a working image file I'd certainly give it a try.

Cheers John


Re: LO Phase Noise and wideband front ends

F6DZK Michel
 

Hello
I think this noise increase in an IF bandwidth  (due to LO PN) only happens when large signal levels are received  (blocking).

Input microwave Noise multiplied by LO PN Will produce even lower levels.  I don't think that NF could be altered.

73 Michel F6DZK

Le 13 juin 2016 8:58 PM, "Andy Talbot andy.g4jnt@... [ukmicrowaves]" <ukmicrowaves@...> a écrit :
 

After a comment by G0API relating to something he heard from G3WDG after EME testing, I've been pondering...

Take a microwave downconverter with a virtually untuned front end (for example one using a quadrature mixer to give the image rejection and not much else).   Use this with a synthesizer having a not-too-brilliant far out phase noise response, like any one with an internal VCO such as the dedicated ones in 'digital' LNBs.and teh LMX2541 etc.

This is exactly what we have in modern low noise LNBs like the Octagon.

Now:  all that wide band noise tens and hundreds of MHz away from the carrier is all being converted by the far out phase noise of the synth and some of it is ending up in the wanted passband.  In HF - VHF radios with strong signals in contests, this is the classic reciprocal mixing problem.   But here we are concerned with much wider bandwidths and accumulated noise.

I've been thinking all day how to calculate it - and haven't come up with an answer. Yet intuitively it seems as if it ought to be straightforward to estimate - after all, classic reciprocal mixing is, when strong off frequency carriers are used.

Take as an example the LMX2541-2690 which has a PN value of  around -157dBc/Hz at 20MHz offset.  When multiplied *4 to 10GHz this becomes -133dBc/Hz.    Assume for the sake of argument and to keep the sums easy,  the PN response is flat and stops abruptly at +/- 100MHz.  Ie we've integrated it to a brick wall shape . With a flat front end response, that means 200MHz of noise is being mixed down.   We'll also assume the close in phase noise is excellent (which is quite reasonable with a decent reference and wide PLL bandwidth) so close in factors  don't contribute.

I now want to multiply the 200MHz (effective)  PN by the 200MHz wide flat noise input, and work out how much is mixed down and appears in,say, a 2.5kHz reference listening bandwidth.    Common sense says bandwidths cancel and the effect appears as a raising of effective noise level (and receiver noise figure) but by how much ?

Answers on a postcard please ...

Andy  G4JNT







LO Phase Noise and wideband front ends

Andy G4JNT
 

After a comment by G0API relating to something he heard from G3WDG after EME testing, I've been pondering...

Take a microwave downconverter with a virtually untuned front end (for example one using a quadrature mixer to give the image rejection and not much else).   Use this with a synthesizer having a not-too-brilliant far out phase noise response, like any one with an internal VCO such as the dedicated ones in 'digital' LNBs.and teh LMX2541 etc.

This is exactly what we have in modern low noise LNBs like the Octagon.

Now:  all that wide band noise tens and hundreds of MHz away from the carrier is all being converted by the far out phase noise of the synth and some of it is ending up in the wanted passband.  In HF - VHF radios with strong signals in contests, this is the classic reciprocal mixing problem.   But here we are concerned with much wider bandwidths and accumulated noise.

I've been thinking all day how to calculate it - and haven't come up with an answer. Yet intuitively it seems as if it ought to be straightforward to estimate - after all, classic reciprocal mixing is, when strong off frequency carriers are used.

Take as an example the LMX2541-2690 which has a PN value of  around -157dBc/Hz at 20MHz offset.  When multiplied *4 to 10GHz this becomes -133dBc/Hz.    Assume for the sake of argument and to keep the sums easy,  the PN response is flat and stops abruptly at +/- 100MHz.  Ie we've integrated it to a brick wall shape . With a flat front end response, that means 200MHz of noise is being mixed down.   We'll also assume the close in phase noise is excellent (which is quite reasonable with a decent reference and wide PLL bandwidth) so close in factors  don't contribute.

I now want to multiply the 200MHz (effective)  PN by the 200MHz wide flat noise input, and work out how much is mixed down and appears in,say, a 2.5kHz reference listening bandwidth.    Common sense says bandwidths cancel and the effect appears as a raising of effective noise level (and receiver noise figure) but by how much ?

Answers on a postcard please ...

Andy  G4JNT







Heliax FSJ1-50A connectors

Michael Scott
 

Hi All
 
Does anyone have any N connectors, male or female, suitable for Heliax FSJ1-50A coax which they would like to sell? I need at least two.
 
Alternatively does anyone know of a UK source? There are plenty available in the US, but the quoted postage is more than the cost of the items!
 
I have tried to modify a connector intended for RG213 but it is a bit of a bodged job, so would prefer to use the designated item if possible.
 
73, Mike, G3LYP


Re: LZ 13cm transverter

Max EA7FGJ <ea7fgj@...>
 

Excellent for the Es'Hailsat uplink!

Saludos cordiales. Máximo. EA7FGJ. IM67XI.

--------------------------------------------

El lun, 13/6/16, 'Eddie G0EHV' g0ehv@... [ukmicrowaves] <ukmicrowaves@...> escribió:

Asunto: Re: [ukmicrowaves] LZ 13cm transverter
Para: ukmicrowaves@...
Fecha: lunes, 13 de junio, 2016 14:04


 













Hello,
I know of 2 that have been bought recently in NE
England.
 
Regards,
Eddie
G0EHV


 

From: mailto:ukmicrowaves@...


Sent: Monday, June 13, 2016 12:51 PM
To: ukmicrowaves@...


Subject: Re: [ukmicrowaves] LZ 13cm transverter
[1
Attachment]
 
 






Hristiyan,
LZ5HP has confirmed that the
first production batch of SG Labs Transverters for 13 cm
band (V1.4a) are
available for sale.  See
attached PDF for the spec, they have a 70cm IF and the units
can also cover the
NoV part of the band.


Price
is 210 Euro + 8 Euro for economy shipping. 

Payment
can be made by
Paypal as per the 23cm ones.


Contact
details on the SG-Labs website: http://www.sg-lab.com/amateur.html


All queries and questions to
Hristiyan.


Regards...Pete
G1DFL






On Monday, June
13, 2016 12:30 PM,
"willis.mj@... [ukmicrowaves]"
<ukmicrowaves@...>
wrote:





 



I am talking about the new 13cms model. Not sure how
that could be
misunderstood?

Mike













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