Topics

Cathay? #Nippon


jemery40k
 

A new line of ships is coming out soon from WizKids

http://www.wizkidsgames.com/pirates/article.asp?cid=40538

I was wondering if anyone has done any work on a set of MOW rules for
the fleet of Cathay? Thanks!


UllGitYer
 

--- In theseaofclaws@..., "jemery40k" <jerry.emery@...>
wrote:

A new line of ships is coming out soon from WizKids

http://www.wizkidsgames.com/pirates/article.asp?cid=40538

I was wondering if anyone has done any work on a set of MOW rules
for
the fleet of Cathay? Thanks!
Neat idea - a Group of us put some oriental stuff together for
warmaster - The ODT - Oriental Development Group. We started with
Araby, which GW have taken - we then moved on to do the project the
group was founded for 'Nippon'. That was a fantastic army list -
IMHO - then we moved to Cathay which was a bit slower - basically
because GW stiffed us and dropped out all our Arab stuff and made a
Persian / Turkish list - nothing like the basic fluff. Kinda took
the wind out of our collective sails - easpecially after so much
playtesting.

The list are obviously not suited to Man O War but we did manage to
retrieve a lot of the OLD GW fluff and add some of our own.

If anybody wants to go offline and include ALL GW things Oriental in
the ODT then the link is


http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/oriental_warmaster/

I'd be happy to set up an associate Man O War group or sub file of
the ODT

Wayne


dlonnon2000 <dlonnon@...>
 

--- In theseaofclaws@..., "UllGitYer" <ullgityer@...> wrote:

--- In theseaofclaws@..., "jemery40k" <jerry.emery@>
wrote:

A new line of ships is coming out soon from WizKids

http://www.wizkidsgames.com/pirates/article.asp?cid=40538

I was wondering if anyone has done any work on a set of MOW rules
for
the fleet of Cathay? Thanks!
Neat idea - a Group of us put some oriental stuff together for
warmaster - The ODT - Oriental Development Group. We started with
Araby, which GW have taken - we then moved on to do the project the
group was founded for 'Nippon'. That was a fantastic army list -
IMHO - then we moved to Cathay which was a bit slower - basically
because GW stiffed us and dropped out all our Arab stuff and made a
Persian / Turkish list - nothing like the basic fluff. Kinda took
the wind out of our collective sails - easpecially after so much
playtesting.
< cut stuff >
Wayne
Oddly enough, I've been pondering an Arab fleet for Man O'War.
I have no idea what I'd use for miniatures. I'd probably need
to scupt my own.

My vague websearches indicate that the historic Arab fleets
had access to "Naptha, Catapults, Devices to prevent Boarding
Parties".

I was thinking of making the basic ships Dhows (or variations
of them). Probably with a square aft (the classic dhow is tapered
on either end, square afts began appearing due to influence
from the Europeans). A Dhow looks a little like an
Imperial vessel (i.e. it has Lateen sails but the hull is
more sweeping).

A good webpage is: http://nabataea.net/ships.html

Weapons would be non-gunpowder. So Balista/Harpoons or
Catapults w/Naptha.

Ships would be:
Dhow's (come in squadrons of three), equipped with a single
Balista. Dhow's would have "largish" crews for their size.
The Balista would be a weak weapon (+1 saving throws with
cannon ranges) capable harpooning an opponents vessel
(on a hit, move the Dhow X" closer to the hit vessel).
It could also fire a sheef of arrows for anti-boarding
actions. Probably some fluff on how Arab traders picked this
weapon up from the Elves and adapted it to their use.
Dhow's would be vessels good for boarding actions.

A larger vessel (in squadrons of 3) the Safiinah, mounting
several Naptha firing catapults. Looks like a larger version of
the Dhow's, with a large aft castle.

And a Man O'War, the Floating Palace. Looks like a cross between
a Slanessh Hell Palace and an Orc Hulk with minarettes.
Armed with Catapults firing Naptha.

Flyers would be flying carpets riders.

Maybe add Dervishes as a special crew type (like Elf Wardancers).

The entire fleet would be sail powered like Elves and
Bretonnians.

As with all my projects, probably won't find time to execute
it. :-(

Daryl


brett johnson <oz_brett_2000@...>
 

Depending on how far back you go Arab ships had small
calibre gun they used for raking sails and peppering
crew to stop them returning fire.

As a suggestion to account for there lesser strength
gubpowder weapons do away with long range and have a
+1 save modifier. A suscessful hit on sails will do
the normal damage rules and a weapon location would
prevent that ship firing this turn.

Also they did use galleys - but they were more costal
based rather than deep water.

Cheers
B

--- dlonnon2000 <dlonnon@...> wrote:


---------------------------------
--- In theseaofclaws@..., "UllGitYer"
<ullgityer@...> wrote:

--- In theseaofclaws@..., "jemery40k"
<jerry.emery@>
wrote:

A new line of ships is coming out soon from
WizKids

http://www.wizkidsgames.com/pirates/article.asp?cid=40538

I was wondering if anyone has done any work on a
set of MOW rules
for
the fleet of Cathay? Thanks!
Neat idea - a Group of us put some oriental stuff
together for
warmaster - The ODT - Oriental Development Group. We
started with
Araby, which GW have taken - we then moved on to do
the project the
group was founded for 'Nippon'. That was a fantastic
army list -
IMHO - then we moved to Cathay which was a bit
slower - basically
because GW stiffed us and dropped out all our Arab
stuff and made a
Persian / Turkish list - nothing like the basic
fluff. Kinda took
the wind out of our collective sails - easpecially
after so much
playtesting.
< cut stuff >
Wayne
Oddly enough, I've been pondering an Arab fleet for
Man O'War.
I have no idea what I'd use for miniatures. I'd
probably need
to scupt my own.

My vague websearches indicate that the historic Arab
fleets
had access to "Naptha, Catapults, Devices to prevent
Boarding
Parties".

I was thinking of making the basic ships Dhows (or
variations
of them). Probably with a square aft (the classic dhow
is tapered
on either end, square afts began appearing due to
influence
from the Europeans). A Dhow looks a little like an
Imperial vessel (i.e. it has Lateen sails but the hull
is
more sweeping).

A good webpage is: http://nabataea.net/ships.html

Weapons would be non-gunpowder. So Balista/Harpoons or

Catapults w/Naptha.

Ships would be:
Dhow's (come in squadrons of three), equipped with a
single
Balista. Dhow's would have "largish" crews for their
size.
The Balista would be a weak weapon (+1 saving throws
with
cannon ranges) capable harpooning an opponents vessel
(on a hit, move the Dhow X" closer to the hit vessel).
It could also fire a sheef of arrows for anti-boarding
actions. Probably some fluff on how Arab traders
picked this
weapon up from the Elves and adapted it to their use.
Dhow's would be vessels good for boarding actions.

A larger vessel (in squadrons of 3) the Safiinah,
mounting
several Naptha firing catapults. Looks like a larger
version of
the Dhow's, with a large aft castle.

And a Man O'War, the Floating Palace. Looks like a
cross between
a Slanessh Hell Palace and an Orc Hulk with
minarettes.
Armed with Catapults firing Naptha.

Flyers would be flying carpets riders.

Maybe add Dervishes as a special crew type (like Elf
Wardancers).

The entire fleet would be sail powered like Elves and
Bretonnians.

As with all my projects, probably won't find time to
execute
it. :-(

Daryl





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Victor Garcia <fenix59@...>
 

--- In theseaofclaws@..., "jemery40k" <jerry.emery@...>
wrote:

A new line of ships is coming out soon from WizKids


<http://www.wizkidsgames.com/pirates/article.asp?cid=40538>http://www.wizkidsgames.com/pirates/article.asp?cid=40538

I was wondering if anyone has done any work on a set of MOW rules
for
> the fleet of Cathay? Thanks!
There are some ideas in progress for a Nippon fleet by evil homer


--


tovakoo
 

I was wondering if anyone has done any work on a set of MOW rules
for
> the fleet of Cathay? Thanks!
Here is my idea for a Cathay fleet, mostly based on chinese ships of
the past.

since the chinese captains insisted on their vessels being able to
sail up the rivers, they where small in comparison to european ships,
so the ships would be small with a limited amount of crew.

This would also mean that they had very few if any man o wars, so I
would say only one..maybe a floating palace of a sort, moved by ores


The sailors who came to china where amased by the sailing ability of
the chinese junks, the sails could be turned or lowered in an instance,
because of the design where they folded like venetian blinds.
so junks would be able to sail against the wind, and wouldnt stop its
move when turning into the wind. (3" 6" 9")wind in front, abeam, astern.

also the junks could get their sails torn to pieces and still sail on,
so shooting the sail would slow them down but not immobilize them.

the chinese had devised a special fireship which consisted of two
small boats connected by a chain which would make the boats fold
around the enemy vessel, the boats would be small and hard to hit, but
would sink instantly if hit dragging the other boat with it.
a hit on 5-6 with only one location and no hull. If it hits an enemy
vessel make roll to hit 2 lower locations and place fire markers
instead og damage markers.

they would of course have guns, since they did invent the gunpowder,
however since they typically fought in rivers where the enemy came
from the front or rear and there really wasnt enough space for broadsides,
the guns would be few and they would be mounted front or rear.

instead they used the gunpowder for boarding, small handbombs and
stinkbombs they would throw at the enemy vessels when boarding,
+1 when repelling boarders on the first turn (guns will also repel
boarders so add it to any guns used if boarded)

also they would use gunpowder for communication (fireworks) so ships
will have a squadron range of 9" rather than 6"

air support would be serpent dragon riders

since warhammers Cathay is a mixture of China and Japan at least to my
knowledge, they might also be able to buy samurais for there ships,
add +1 boarding.


So my idea of a cathay fleet would be:

man o war "floating palace moving under ores 4" 2 guns all sides, 4 crew.
SOL "3x war junks" sail ships (3" 6" 9") 2 guns prow mounted, 1
gun stern mounted, 2 crew.
SOL "3x river junks" sail (3" 6" 9") 1 gun prow mounted, 1 crew.
SOL "1x fireships" moving under ore (4" or 6" no turns), ram
enemy ships causing 2 low hits (fire markers)
flyer "serpent dragon riders" like dragon riders but no firebreath.

what do you guys think?


UllGitYer
 

--- In theseaofclaws@..., "tovakoo" <tovakoo@...> wrote:

since warhammers Cathay is a mixture of China and Japan at least
to my
knowledge, they might also be able to buy samurais for there ships,
add +1 boarding.
Like your ideas except 1. the +1 Boarding - per se
and 2. Junk size.

GW Cathay is China - Nippon is Japan.

GW used to do a range of Nipponese WH with chinese looking mages and
Rockets - but they were most distinctly Nippon.

I'd fancy some low level Turtle Style ramming row boats too - It's
what put py to the final Japanese invasion fleet of Korea.


Nippon would be Junks too as well as loads of tiny fishing vessels
loaded with monks, sams and ninja. As for my other issue on Junk
Size You need to check out a National Geog article describing in
detail the Chinese Fleet - it makes the Spanish expedition thingy
look like a sunday regatta round the isle of wight.

I'll check out the reference for you.

Wayne


Daryl Lonnon <dlonnon@...>
 

I think it's a great start!

One thing to keep in mind, is even though Junks are historically small, this is
a fantasy game ... so you can super-size them without regard to logic :-).

As Wayne said, Nippon is Japan, and Cathay is China.

Most warmaster lists I've seen typically depict Nippon as an anti-magic force
(like dwarves) with a priest caste which intercedes on behalf of mortals
with the supernatural. I don't know if this depiction comes form old GW fluff
or not.

Cathay, on the other hand, is usually depicted with sorcerors.

Visually, I think either one would be stunning fleet to behold.

Daryl

On 2/21/06, UllGitYer <ullgityer@...> wrote:
--- In theseaofclaws@..., "tovakoo" <tovakoo@...> wrote:

> since warhammers Cathay is a mixture of China and Japan at least
to my
> knowledge, they might also be able to buy samurais for there ships,
> add +1 boarding.
>

Like your ideas except 1. the +1 Boarding - per se
and 2. Junk size.

GW Cathay is China - Nippon is Japan.

GW used to do a range of Nipponese WH with chinese looking mages and
Rockets - but they were most distinctly Nippon.

I'd fancy some low level Turtle Style ramming row boats too - It's
what put py to the final Japanese invasion fleet of Korea.


Nippon would be Junks too as well as loads of tiny fishing vessels
loaded with monks, sams and ninja. As for my other issue on Junk
Size You need to check out a National Geog article describing in
detail the Chinese Fleet - it makes the Spanish expedition thingy
look like a sunday regatta round the isle of wight.

I'll check out the reference for you.

Wayne







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brett johnson <oz_brett_2000@...>
 
Edited

Just to correct you on one item, I saw a National Geographic item on a HUGE chinesse ship they uncovered and were quite common, Had a crew of 400 and a passenger list of in excess of 1000 + cargo.

Cheers
B

--- Daryl Lonnon <dlonnon@...> wrote:


---------------------------------
I think it's a great start!

One thing to keep in mind, is even though Junks are historically small, this is a fantasy game ... so you can super-size them without regard to logic :-).

As Wayne said, Nippon is Japan, and Cathay is China.

Most warmaster lists I've seen typically depict Nippon as an anti-magic force (like dwarves) with a priest caste which intercedes on behalf of mortals with the supernatural. I don't know if this depiction comes form old GW fluff or not.

Cathay, on the other hand, is usually depicted with sorcerors.

Visually, I think either one would be stunning fleet to behold.

Daryl


jemery40k
 

----- Original Message -----
From: "UllGitYer" <ullgityer@...>
To: <theseaofclaws@...>
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2006 6:24 AM
Subject: [The Sea Of Claws] Re: Cathay?


As for my other issue on Junk
Size You need to check out a National Geog article describing in
detail the Chinese Fleet - it makes the Spanish expedition thingy
look like a Sunday regatta round the isle of Wight.

I'll check out the reference for you.
http://www7.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0507/feature2/index.html

(The printed July 2005 issue is even better, with some great illustrations.)

also:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zheng_He

(Be sure to check out the fleet list)

and some more pics:

http://theseoultimes.com/ST/db2/image_enlarge.php?url=http://theseoultimes.com/ST/db2/images_large/630-20040616113245.jpg#

http://www.chinapage.com/chengh2v.gif

"In 1492, Christopher Columbus set sail across the Atlantic with three small ships and less than a hundred men. In 1405, a Chinese admiral named Zheng He sailed twice as far as Columbus with several hundred ships and 28,000 men."

One can only imagine what might have been if the Ming court had thought Zheng He had found anything worthwhile. Instead, the fleet was decommissioned, new work on the Great Wall commenced, and the Middle Kingdom turned to isolationism and stagnation.


manowarplayer <no_reply@...>
 
Edited

Here is some of that Wikipedia entry on the fleet of Zheng He:

According to Chinese sources, the fleet comprised 30,000 men and over 300 ships at its height.

The 1405 expedition consisted of 27,800 men and 317 ships, composed of:

"Treasure ships", used by the commander of the fleet and his deputies (nine-masted, about 120 meters (400 ft) long and 50 m (160 ft) wide).
"Horse ships", carrying tribute goods and repair material for the fleet (eight-masted, about 103 m (339 ft) long and 42 m (138 ft) wide)
"Supply ships", containing food-staple for the crew (seven-masted, about 78 m (257 ft) long and 35 m (115 ft) wide).
"Troop transports", six-masted, about 67 m (220 ft) long and 25 m (83 ft) wide).
"Fuchuan warships", five-masted, about 50 m (165 ft) long).
"Patrol boats", eight-oared, about 37 m (120 feet) long).
"Water tankers", with 1 month supply of fresh water.
The enormous characteristics of the Chinese ships of the period are confirmed by Western travelers to the East, such as Ibn Battuta and Marco Polo. According to Ibn Battuta, who visited China in 1347:

…We stopped in the port of Calicut, in which there were at the time thirteen Chinese vessels, and disembarked. On the China Sea travelling is done in Chinese ships only, so we shall describe their arrangements. The Chinese vessels are of three kinds; large ships called chunks (junks), middle sized ones called zaws (dhows) and the small ones kakams. The large ships have anything from twelve down to three sails, which are made of bamboo rods plaited into mats. They are never lowered, but turned according to the direction of the wind; at anchor they are left floating in the wind.

A ship carries a complement of a thousand men six hundred of whom are sailors and four hundred men-at-arms, including archers, men with shields and crossbows, who throw naphtha. Three smaller ones, the "half", the "third" and the "quarter", accompany each large vessel. These vessels are built in the towns of Zaytun and Sin-
Kalan. The vessel has four decks and contains rooms, cabins, and saloons for merchants; a cabin has chambers and a lavatory, and can be locked by its occupants.

This is the manner after which they are made; two (parallel) walls of very thick wooden (planking) are raised and across the space between them are placed very thick planks (the bulkheads) secured longitudinally and transversely by means of large nails, each three ells in length. When these walls have thus been built the lower deck
is fitted in and the ship is launched before the upper works are finished." (Ibn Battuta).

"In 1492, Christopher Columbus set sail across the Atlantic with three small
ships and less than a hundred men. In 1405, a Chinese admiral named Zheng He
sailed twice as far as Columbus with several hundred ships and 28,000 men."

One can only imagine what might have been if the Ming court had thought
Zheng He had found anything worthwhile. Instead, the fleet was
decommissioned, new work on the Great Wall commenced, and the Middle Kingdom
turned to isolationism and stagnation.


tovakoo
 

I stand corrected!

That is indeed some info I missed out on he he, I guess I only took
the smaller trade vessels into account...

Well, back to the drawing board.. This should make it easier to think
up a good man o war.

thanks for the info fellows!


UllGitYer
 

--- In theseaofclaws@..., "tovakoo" <tovakoo@...> wrote:

I stand corrected!

That is indeed some info I missed out on he he, I guess I only
took
the smaller trade vessels into account...

Well, back to the drawing board.. This should make it easier to
think
up a good man o war.

thanks for the info fellows!
And don't forget the Turtle ships.
www.tabula-rasa.info/JamesAdams/
treasure_trove/koreanTurtle/turtleShips.htm


jemery40k
 

----- Original Message -----
From: "UllGitYer" <ullgityer@...>
To: <theseaofclaws@...>
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 5:18 AM
Subject: [The Sea Of Claws] Re: Cathay?


And don't forget the Turtle ships.
www.tabula-rasa.info/JamesAdams/ treasure_trove/koreanTurtle/turtleShips.htm
Certainly not:

http://www.wizkidsgames.com/pirates/article.asp?cid=40587

Of course, these would not be a part of the Cathay fleet proper.

Perhaps a mercenary force? Like Schmidt's Renegades?


Daryl Lonnon <dlonnon@...>
 

Reading the articles on the fleet of Zheng He, you wouldn't even
need to "fantasize" the ships.

A Treasure Ship at 1/1200 scale is already 10cm (4") long and
4 cm (1 1/2") wide!

That'd be a cool fleet to see on the tabletop.

Daryl

On 2/22/06, Jerry Emery <jerry.emery@...> wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "UllGitYer" <ullgityer@...>
To: <theseaofclaws@...>
Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 5:18 AM
Subject: [The Sea Of Claws] Re: Cathay?


> And don't forget the Turtle ships.
> www.tabula-rasa.info/JamesAdams/
> treasure_trove/koreanTurtle/turtleShips.htm

Certainly not:

http://www.wizkidsgames.com/pirates/article.asp?cid=40587

Of course, these would not be a part of the Cathay fleet proper.

Perhaps a mercenary force? Like Schmidt's Renegades?


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Mika Mannonen <mikama@...>
 
Edited

Daryl Lonnon kirjoitti:
Reading the articles on the fleet of Zheng He, you wouldn't even
need to "fantasize" the ships.

A Treasure Ship at 1/1200 scale is already 10cm (4") long and
4 cm (1 1/2") wide!

That'd be a cool fleet to see on the tabletop.
I think that playing with that kind of minis the game just doesnt feel the same but hey.. if you like using wizkids minis its cool :)


jemery40k
 
Edited

Reading the articles on the fleet of Zheng He, you wouldn't even
need to "fantasize" the ships.

A Treasure Ship at 1/1200 scale is already 10cm (4") long and
4 cm (1 1/2") wide!

That'd be a cool fleet to see on the tabletop.
That was my thought.

And for those still having a hard time trying to visualize just how big one of those 400-foot Chinese "Treasure Ships" of Zheng He were, here are some other comparisons:

Santa Maria - 70 feet (approx.)
Mayflower - 106 feet
USS Bonhomme Richard - 152 feet
USS Constitution ("Old Ironsides") - 204 feet
HMS Victory - 226 feet
HMS Beagle - 90 feet
USS Monitor - 172 feet
CSS Virginia - 275 feet
U-505 (WWII type IXC U-boat) - 252 feet
US Fletcher-class destroyer (WWII) - 376 feet
Liberty-class cargo ship (WWII) - 441

And finally, for the sake of completeness:

Noah's Ark - 300 cubits (450 feet - approx)

<G>


morval666
 

Has anyone found a good drawing of the treasure ship or even other
asian warships? I've found lots of sites talking about the Treasure
ship, but can't find a good drawing of it to get an idea of what it
might look like. There was a computer generated version of it on one
site, but it was from an angle and you can't see much.

I'm going to try one of the books that are out about the ship I guess.

Morval


Victor Garcia <fenix59@...>
 

Has anyone found a good drawing of the treasure ship or even other
asian warships? I've found lots of sites talking about the Treasure
ship, but can't find a good drawing of it to get an idea of what it
might look like. There was a computer generated version of it on one
site, but it was from an angle and you can't see much.

I'm going to try one of the books that are out about the ship I guess.

Morval
Try these books from Osprey

Fighting Ships of the Far East (1)
China and Southeast Asia 202 BC-AD 1419
(New Vanguard 61)

Fighting Ships of the Far East (2)
Japan and Korea AD 612-1639
(New Vanguard 63)
--