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Thank you Larry


Sylvain Durand
 
Edited

Larry 
Thank you for a great game. I took some pictures. I like the ruleset 
Aslan
It was a pleasure to meet you

Sylvain 



Sylvain

On Jan 8, 2021, at 9:37 AM, Michael M via groups.io <madmachell@...> wrote:


Here's another string on AWI from the "Carnage and Glory" group.  I would have liked to play in the Oriskany game noted below.  According to family history, I am a direct descendent on my mother's side of General Nicholas Herkimer, who commanded the Tryon County Militia at that battle. When Fort Stanwix was placed under siege by the British in July 1777, he marched to relieve the fort and was ambushed by a force of British regulars, Tory militia and Mohawk indians at Oriskany.  As his men were being picked off while they tried to reload, he instructed them to fight in pairs, one firing while the other reloaded.  Injured in the leg, he was propped against a tree, where he lit his pipe and continued to direct the battle, rallying his troops twice before they had to withdraw.  Unfortunately, Herkimer died of his injuries within two weeks of the battle after a botched amputation of the injured leg. 

I recall my mom had a print of Herkimer directing the battle that was in my childhood home for many years.  I also remember visiting the Oriskany battlefield when I was probably about 12 or 13.  It is probably a big reason why I have always been interested in the AWI.

Thanks for the walk down memory lane.  I wish I could be there to participate in the game with you guys, but still being extremely cautious about COVID given my wife's high-risk situation.  Enjoy and hope to see you all soon in person!  

Michael Machell
madmachell@...


---- Original Message ----
From: Dr. Bob McCaskill <westiedoc@...>
To: carnageandgloryii@groups.io
Sent: Thu, Jan 7, 2021 10:21 AM
Subject: Re: [carnageandgloryii] What are AWI Non trained unit frontages?


The Catawba Indians fought in several engagements with the American’s in the Southern Campaign.  Their tribe was particularly found of Sumter and Polk.  They  were at the Battle of Hanging Rock, Capp’s Mill and Weitzel’s Mill.  At Capp’s Mill, Green had set up an ambush for the British under Tarleton.  As the British advanced the Catawba’s fired early spoiling the ambush.  They went back to SC with BG Pickens and the SC/GA militia after Weitzel’s Mill.



 

I base them similar to skirmishers – typically 2 to a stand.  In a couple con games that have them they are in extended order like rifle units.  I might rate them excellent in fire/good in combat/irregulars – on the OB they might be B’s which typically causes a player to make comments.  But if you charge them they don’t stand.  Much fun having them on the table.



 

Bob



 

From: carnageandgloryii@groups.io <carnageandgloryii@groups.io> On Behalf Of Frank Luberti Jr
Sent: Wednesday, January 6, 2021 5:55 PM
To: carnageandgloryii@groups.io
Subject: Re: [carnageandgloryii] What are AWI Non trained unit frontages?



 

For those who might be interested, here are a few comments from games I have run in the past to supplement Nigel's instructions regarding the use of Native American ("NA") forces in C&G games. 



 

At past HMGS conventions (remember them?), I ran the AWI Battle of Oriskany and the FIW Retreat from Fort William Henry.  Both scenarios involved NA "units."  FYI, there is an Osprey on Ft. William Henry.  (The game was inspired by (and set up to simulate) the ambush scene from the film "Last of the Mohicans.")  Oriskany (IIRC) is covered in the Osprey on the Saratoga campaign.



 

The turn sequence went as follows for both games, with the NA units as "Attackers" (with initiative) and the Americans/British as "Defenders":



 

Turn 1:  Attackers start the game deployed in skirmish/open order (whatever we were calling that formation years ago) and open fire from cover; Defenders on road in march column.



 

Turn 2: Attackers declare their intention to charge.  To get around the restrictions on open order units charging formed units, GM changes formation to line for those open order Attacker units that want to charge.  (The Attacker players were told of this restriction prior to the start of the game.)  IIRC, Attacker units that conducted a formation change had the option to conduct a moving fire (most did).



 

Defenders had the option to go from march column to line (most did).



 

Turn 3:  Attackers, now in a "formation" allowing them to charge, attempted to charge in the normal manner.



 

Both games proceeded as usual from there.  Can't remember exactly who "won", but a good time was had by all, including (and especially) the GM.    



 

Re basing, all the Attackers were individually based 25/28mm figures from my FIW and AWI collections.  The Defenders were based according to Nigel's guidelines for basing AWI figures (4-5 per base). 



 

To quote our Beloved Leader, "hope that helps."



 

Regards,


Frank



 

P.S.--Same approach works for Zulus, Dervishes, etc. in Colonial games.  (Hint, hint.)



 

P.S.S.--FYI, I suppose a GM could start the Attackers in a close order formation and permit a charge attempt on Turn 1, but that takes away the impact of "springing" the ambush with an opening volley.



 


From: carnageandgloryii@groups.io <carnageandgloryii@groups.io> on behalf of Nigel P. Marsh <npmarsh@...>
Sent: Wednesday, January 6, 2021 1:55 PM
To: carnageandgloryii@groups.io <carnageandgloryii@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [carnageandgloryii] What are AWI Non trained unit frontages?



 


Good questions, I'll confess I hadn't really considered untrained civilian groups as being a representative combat unit.



 

Q. What unit base sizes and frontages should be used for Native Americans and untrained Civilian groups fighting with the Americans and or British?


A. My recommendation would be to mount Indians and/or untrained civilians on what would typically be considered skirmish line stands. So, for 28mm figures, you might use a 1.5" x 1.5" (40mm x 40mm) stand with two figures representing 50 men. If the unit has 100 men, then you'd require two such stands.



 

Q. If undertaking skirmishing would the above units have any ability to considerer or maintain a separate body of supports behind their skirmish line, as with Indians the a groups ability would be limited to closing with an enemy if their moral holds?


A. A professional military formation would always support a skirmish firing line (chain) with close order formations. One would be termed the support, and would be close to the firing line, capable of feeding in replacements. The second would be further back, and would be termed the reserve. These might be used to replace the firing line and supports in their entirety as they became fatigued, too weak or ran out of ammunition. In the case of Native Americans and untrained civilians it probably depends. If they were commanded, or under the instruction of regular officers, I see no reason why they wouldn't adopt similar formations. I would suspect that Native Americans would have tended to use supports and reserves purely from the perspective that it was common sense. The alternative theory might be that they operated more in a 'grande debande', to use a later term, where they considered the regular professional units as supports.



 

Q. What group like formations would these units be in when stationary, moving and charging?


A. I would recommend that these units adopt and retain extended order throughout a game. The system may suggest that these can reform if pressed, and in this instance, the GM/player should assume that the formation has temporarily coalesced for protection purposes, but that they should readopt extended order at the first available moment.



 

Hope this helps


Nigel



 


 

Nigel P. Marsh



 


 


 

On Tuesday, January 5, 2021, 10:02:59 PM EST, jjthorn@... <jjthorn@...> wrote:



 


 

What unit base sizes and frontages should be used for Indians and untrained Civilian groups fighting with the Americans and or British?


 


Each unit would combine and move as a group or mass, as they would have no concept or ability to form and maintain regular formations as utilised by trained militia and regular units.


 


These unformed formations would be extremely flexible with the ground space they cover being the result of actions being taken, circumstances and terrain, rather than as the result of any form of rigid enforced formation control.


 


If undertaking skirmishing would the above units have any ability to considerer or maintain a separate body of supports behind their skirmish line, as with Indians the a groups ability would be limited to closing with an enemy if their moral holds?


 


What group like formations would these units be in when stationary, moving and charging?




Bob
 
Edited

Here are my pics. 

Bob

On Jan 9, 2021, at 6:59 PM, Sylvain Durand via groups.io <Sylvainnc@...> wrote:

Larry 
Thank you for a great game. I took some pictures. I like the ruleset 
Aslan
It was a pleasure to meet you

Sylvain 

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Sylvain

On Jan 8, 2021, at 9:37 AM, Michael M via groups.io <madmachell@...> wrote:


Here's another string on AWI from the "Carnage and Glory" group.  I would have liked to play in the Oriskany game noted below.  According to family history, I am a direct descendent on my mother's side of General Nicholas Herkimer, who commanded the Tryon County Militia at that battle. When Fort Stanwix was placed under siege by the British in July 1777, he marched to relieve the fort and was ambushed by a force of British regulars, Tory militia and Mohawk indians at Oriskany.  As his men were being picked off while they tried to reload, he instructed them to fight in pairs, one firing while the other reloaded.  Injured in the leg, he was propped against a tree, where he lit his pipe and continued to direct the battle, rallying his troops twice before they had to withdraw.  Unfortunately, Herkimer died of his injuries within two weeks of the battle after a botched amputation of the injured leg. 

I recall my mom had a print of Herkimer directing the battle that was in my childhood home for many years.  I also remember visiting the Oriskany battlefield when I was probably about 12 or 13.  It is probably a big reason why I have always been interested in the AWI.

Thanks for the walk down memory lane.  I wish I could be there to participate in the game with you guys, but still being extremely cautious about COVID given my wife's high-risk situation.  Enjoy and hope to see you all soon in person!  

Michael Machell
madmachell@...


---- Original Message ----
From: Dr. Bob McCaskill <westiedoc@...>
To: carnageandgloryii@groups.io
Sent: Thu, Jan 7, 2021 10:21 AM
Subject: Re: [carnageandgloryii] What are AWI Non trained unit frontages?


The Catawba Indians fought in several engagements with the American’s in the Southern Campaign.  Their tribe was particularly found of Sumter and Polk.  They  were at the Battle of Hanging Rock, Capp’s Mill and Weitzel’s Mill.  At Capp’s Mill, Green had set up an ambush for the British under Tarleton.  As the British advanced the Catawba’s fired early spoiling the ambush.  They went back to SC with BG Pickens and the SC/GA militia after Weitzel’s Mill.



 

I base them similar to skirmishers – typically 2 to a stand.  In a couple con games that have them they are in extended order like rifle units.  I might rate them excellent in fire/good in combat/irregulars – on the OB they might be B’s which typically causes a player to make comments.  But if you charge them they don’t stand.  Much fun having them on the table.



 

Bob



 

From: carnageandgloryii@groups.io <carnageandgloryii@groups.io> On Behalf Of Frank Luberti Jr
Sent: Wednesday, January 6, 2021 5:55 PM
To: carnageandgloryii@groups.io
Subject: Re: [carnageandgloryii] What are AWI Non trained unit frontages?



 

For those who might be interested, here are a few comments from games I have run in the past to supplement Nigel's instructions regarding the use of Native American ("NA") forces in C&G games. 



 

At past HMGS conventions (remember them?), I ran the AWI Battle of Oriskany and the FIW Retreat from Fort William Henry.  Both scenarios involved NA "units."  FYI, there is an Osprey on Ft. William Henry.  (The game was inspired by (and set up to simulate) the ambush scene from the film "Last of the Mohicans.")  Oriskany (IIRC) is covered in the Osprey on the Saratoga campaign.



 

The turn sequence went as follows for both games, with the NA units as "Attackers" (with initiative) and the Americans/British as "Defenders":



 

Turn 1:  Attackers start the game deployed in skirmish/open order (whatever we were calling that formation years ago) and open fire from cover; Defenders on road in march column.



 

Turn 2: Attackers declare their intention to charge.  To get around the restrictions on open order units charging formed units, GM changes formation to line for those open order Attacker units that want to charge.  (The Attacker players were told of this restriction prior to the start of the game.)  IIRC, Attacker units that conducted a formation change had the option to conduct a moving fire (most did).



 

Defenders had the option to go from march column to line (most did).



 

Turn 3:  Attackers, now in a "formation" allowing them to charge, attempted to charge in the normal manner.



 

Both games proceeded as usual from there.  Can't remember exactly who "won", but a good time was had by all, including (and especially) the GM.    



 

Re basing, all the Attackers were individually based 25/28mm figures from my FIW and AWI collections.  The Defenders were based according to Nigel's guidelines for basing AWI figures (4-5 per base). 



 

To quote our Beloved Leader, "hope that helps."



 

Regards,


Frank



 

P.S.--Same approach works for Zulus, Dervishes, etc. in Colonial games.  (Hint, hint.)



 

P.S.S.--FYI, I suppose a GM could start the Attackers in a close order formation and permit a charge attempt on Turn 1, but that takes away the impact of "springing" the ambush with an opening volley.



 


From: carnageandgloryii@groups.io <carnageandgloryii@groups.io> on behalf of Nigel P. Marsh <npmarsh@...>
Sent: Wednesday, January 6, 2021 1:55 PM
To: carnageandgloryii@groups.io <carnageandgloryii@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [carnageandgloryii] What are AWI Non trained unit frontages?



 


Good questions, I'll confess I hadn't really considered untrained civilian groups as being a representative combat unit.



 

Q. What unit base sizes and frontages should be used for Native Americans and untrained Civilian groups fighting with the Americans and or British?


A. My recommendation would be to mount Indians and/or untrained civilians on what would typically be considered skirmish line stands. So, for 28mm figures, you might use a 1.5" x 1.5" (40mm x 40mm) stand with two figures representing 50 men. If the unit has 100 men, then you'd require two such stands.



 

Q. If undertaking skirmishing would the above units have any ability to considerer or maintain a separate body of supports behind their skirmish line, as with Indians the a groups ability would be limited to closing with an enemy if their moral holds?


A. A professional military formation would always support a skirmish firing line (chain) with close order formations. One would be termed the support, and would be close to the firing line, capable of feeding in replacements. The second would be further back, and would be termed the reserve. These might be used to replace the firing line and supports in their entirety as they became fatigued, too weak or ran out of ammunition. In the case of Native Americans and untrained civilians it probably depends. If they were commanded, or under the instruction of regular officers, I see no reason why they wouldn't adopt similar formations. I would suspect that Native Americans would have tended to use supports and reserves purely from the perspective that it was common sense. The alternative theory might be that they operated more in a 'grande debande', to use a later term, where they considered the regular professional units as supports.



 

Q. What group like formations would these units be in when stationary, moving and charging?


A. I would recommend that these units adopt and retain extended order throughout a game. The system may suggest that these can reform if pressed, and in this instance, the GM/player should assume that the formation has temporarily coalesced for protection purposes, but that they should readopt extended order at the first available moment.



 

Hope this helps


Nigel



 


 

Nigel P. Marsh



 


 


 

On Tuesday, January 5, 2021, 10:02:59 PM EST, jjthorn@... <jjthorn@...> wrote:



 


 

What unit base sizes and frontages should be used for Indians and untrained Civilian groups fighting with the Americans and or British?


 


Each unit would combine and move as a group or mass, as they would have no concept or ability to form and maintain regular formations as utilised by trained militia and regular units.


 


These unformed formations would be extremely flexible with the ground space they cover being the result of actions being taken, circumstances and terrain, rather than as the result of any form of rigid enforced formation control.


 


If undertaking skirmishing would the above units have any ability to considerer or maintain a separate body of supports behind their skirmish line, as with Indians the a groups ability would be limited to closing with an enemy if their moral holds?


 


What group like formations would these units be in when stationary, moving and charging?