Topics

Why you MUST USE the PayPal "FRIENDS and FAMILY" option for Peter's book


 

If you are using PAYPAL to pay for Peter Keller's book and you
DID NOT chose to send you payment to "FRIENDS AND FAMILY" PayPal
assumes (my guess) that you are paying for something you ordered
from a business. We do not receive your payment - They keep it.
This is the message PayPal sends us:
---------|---------|---------|---------|---------|---------|----
We've placed this money on hold because we've noticed that
you're a new PayPal seller and will need time to build a
positive selling history. The money has been added to your
ON-HOLD balance. It'll be available once we can confirm that
your customer has received the goods or services.
---------|---------|---------|---------|---------|---------|----
We are NOT NEW to PayPal and we are NOT A SELLER. We have tried
numerous times to have them change this with no success.

I hope you are as angry as we are that PayPal earns interest
on your money while they are preventing us from getting it.

THIS IS WHY YOU MUST SAY YOUR PAYMENT IS TO "FRIENDS AND FAMILY"

IF YOU DID NOT USE "FRIENDS AND FAMILY" you have these options:
(1) Cancel the transaction and send another payment. This time
use FRIENDS AND FAMILY.
(2) Notify PayPal that you received the book IMMEDIATELY.
(3) Buy the book on Amazon for $70 to $150.
(4) Pay $650 to buy the book on eBay right now.
(5) If you do not consider me a "FRIEND" that you can trust with
your payment think about this: I spent the past four years
of my life as the moderator of TekScopes because I care
about preserving the part of Tektronix's legacy when the
instruments they created were the gold standard of the
Electronics Industry. I arranged for our members to acquire
Peter's book because I know how important it is. I do not
get anything for doing this. The opposite is true: It has
taken substantial effort and time to make this possible.

On Dec 2, the funds I received, less the postage and supplies I
ordered, will be given to Peter along with a list of the people
whose money has CLEARED our PayPal account. He will personally
autograph a book to each of those people and I will mail them.

Then I will be able to return to what I love doing (before I
came up with this bright idea): Playing with all my Tek toys.

Whatever option you choose be aware that we will probably take
all of the remaining copies of Peter's book. There will be no
more if we do that.
Dennis Tillman W7pF


Larry McDavid
 

I completely understand Dennis' problem and perhaps some clarification will be helpful because someone suggested PayPal has changed its user interface and the option to send to Friends and Family is no longer offered.

I just sent the $37 to MarianT@YouthEastsideServices.org using my desktop computer and PayPal login. During the process, I was surely offered the option to send to Friends and Family or for the purchase of goods; I chose to send to Friends and Family but there is a detail that has not been mentioned previously.

When sending to Friends and Family, PayPal required me to fund the transaction from either funds on deposit at PayPal or to fund by debiting my linked bank account. If I wanted to fund by credit card, I was not offered the option to send to Friends and Family. I funded the transaction by bank account debit.

I never access PayPal from my cell phone because I consider that connection insecure and I don't want to enter my PayPal password. So, I can't confirm that the cell phone app access to PayPal does not offer the option to send to Friends and Family. I encourage you to use only local computer access to PayPal...

Some folks seem to not trust PayPal with their bank account information. Personally, I have many years completely satisfactory experience using PayPal and PayPal has always had my bank account information. I've had perhaps two problems purchasing something while using PayPal (and, not through eBay) and in both instances PayPal *immediately* refunded me when I reported the problem. In truth, I greatly prefer to use PayPal because it does not reveal my credit card information to the seller.

Thanks to Dennis for the work he is surely investing to provide this service!

Larry


On 11/23/2020 12:11 PM, Dennis Tillman W7pF wrote:
If you are using PAYPAL to pay for Peter Keller's book and you
DID NOT chose to send you payment to "FRIENDS AND FAMILY" PayPal
assumes (my guess) that you are paying for something you ordered
from a business. We do not receive your payment - They keep it.
...

--
Best wishes,

Larry McDavid W6FUB
Anaheim, California (SE of Los Angeles, near Disneyland)


Mlynch001
 

I to have used PayPal for years as a way to not expose my Bank or Credit Card information across the web. I do a lot of business through PayPal and have never had any issues with security of the transaction .

--
Michael Lynch
Dardanelle, AR


Chuck Harris
 

Hi Dennis,

I don't like to use friends and family to send money for
commercial transactions... it is just a thing.

Whenever possible, I try to follow Samuel Clemens' (aka Mark Twain)
recommendation to always do right.... Something about astonishing
friends, and confounding enemies... Or, whatever.

However, since several of us didn't follow your instructions, we are
stuck. Paypal doesn't seem to allow a buyer to cancel a commercial
transaction... It wouldn't be fair to the seller. So, cancelling a
commercial transaction is AFAIK a seller thing.

All is not lost. 48 hours after a payment is made is the soonest
that a buyer can tell paypal an item was received... which should
release the funds.

Or, you can cancel our transactions.

-Chuck Harris

Dennis Tillman W7pF wrote:

If you are using PAYPAL to pay for Peter Keller's book and you
DID NOT chose to send you payment to "FRIENDS AND FAMILY" PayPal
assumes (my guess) that you are paying for something you ordered
from a business. We do not receive your payment - They keep it.
This is the message PayPal sends us:
---------|---------|---------|---------|---------|---------|----
We've placed this money on hold because we've noticed that
you're a new PayPal seller and will need time to build a
positive selling history. The money has been added to your
ON-HOLD balance. It'll be available once we can confirm that
your customer has received the goods or services.
---------|---------|---------|---------|---------|---------|----
We are NOT NEW to PayPal and we are NOT A SELLER. We have tried
numerous times to have them change this with no success.

I hope you are as angry as we are that PayPal earns interest
on your money while they are preventing us from getting it.

THIS IS WHY YOU MUST SAY YOUR PAYMENT IS TO "FRIENDS AND FAMILY"

IF YOU DID NOT USE "FRIENDS AND FAMILY" you have these options:
(1) Cancel the transaction and send another payment. This time
use FRIENDS AND FAMILY.
(2) Notify PayPal that you received the book IMMEDIATELY.
(3) Buy the book on Amazon for $70 to $150.
(4) Pay $650 to buy the book on eBay right now.
(5) If you do not consider me a "FRIEND" that you can trust with
your payment think about this: I spent the past four years
of my life as the moderator of TekScopes because I care
about preserving the part of Tektronix's legacy when the
instruments they created were the gold standard of the
Electronics Industry. I arranged for our members to acquire
Peter's book because I know how important it is. I do not
get anything for doing this. The opposite is true: It has
taken substantial effort and time to make this possible.

On Dec 2, the funds I received, less the postage and supplies I
ordered, will be given to Peter along with a list of the people
whose money has CLEARED our PayPal account. He will personally
autograph a book to each of those people and I will mail them.

Then I will be able to return to what I love doing (before I
came up with this bright idea): Playing with all my Tek toys.

Whatever option you choose be aware that we will probably take
all of the remaining copies of Peter's book. There will be no
more if we do that.
Dennis Tillman W7pF







 

Hi Chuck,
I can't believe you think this is a commercial transaction!
Please tell me what, if anything, I did that gave you this impression.
What have I done that you felt you could not tell PayPal that you trust me?

If I were a business I would have to charge a lot more to even break even on this hair-brained scheme I came up with to make it possible for TekScopes members to get this book for half price.

It is true that I padded each order for my benefit: I added $3.00 for the 100 corrugated boxes I had to buy ($52 + $12 to ship them to me) to mail the books in and for trips to the post office to get the cheapest rates possible to keep the cost of this to a bare minimum. I bought mailing labels to use ($19). I will probably use half a roll of packing tape (~$3.00)I spent 1 hour on the internet searching for the right size boxes and ordering them. I made 3 trips to the post office to get rates too all the destinations I had to deal with. Standing on line and then waiting while the postal clerk hunted for the lowest rates took about 2 hours. I have at least one more trip to the post office to mail all the books domestically. International orders take about 10 to 15 minutes each at the post office for me to fill out customs forms and for the postal clerk to type in the information on the customs form. I have 23 of those which will probably take me 3 hours at a minimum in the post office. Working out all the ordering details took about 6 hours to be sure I got every detail right (I didn't, apparently) took about 6 hours. Replying to literally hundreds of emails I am getting over the past week (it is amazing how many people did not send me their address in spite of saying I needed it twice in my first email).

I have orders for 90 books. Supplies cost ~$85. Before this is done I will spend at least 30 hours of time to make this a success. The $3 that I allowed myself for each order works out to $270 less $85 for supplies. My profit is $185 for more than 30 hours of work. That's less than $6/hour.
I never represented myself as a business. I have no invoices, I did not offer to send anyone an invoice. I do not have a secure (https) web site to accept your order. I do not have an order number to give you. There are no paid employees here. It's just me, my wife Marian, and 5 golden retrievers (Margie, Turducken, Tequila, Nessie, and Jagger).

I am the moderator of TekScopes which has no employees. We are all volunteers, you included. Before the virus struck we talked about you coming here for a visit when your son graduated with his Ph. I am extremely disappointed that you would consider anything I do for the good of TekScopes to be a commercial transaction or that I am not someone you can trust as a friend.

Dennis Tillman W7pF

-----Original Message-----
From: TekScopes@groups.io [mailto:TekScopes@groups.io] On Behalf Of Chuck Harris
Sent: Monday, November 23, 2020 1:04 PM
To: TekScopes@groups.io
Subject: Re: [TekScopes] Why you MUST USE the PayPal "FRIENDS and FAMILY" option for Peter's book

Hi Dennis,

I don't like to use friends and family to send money for commercial transactions... it is just a thing.

Whenever possible, I try to follow Samuel Clemens' (aka Mark Twain) recommendation to always do right.... Something about astonishing friends, and confounding enemies... Or, whatever.

However, since several of us didn't follow your instructions, we are stuck. Paypal doesn't seem to allow a buyer to cancel a commercial transaction... It wouldn't be fair to the seller. So, cancelling a commercial transaction is AFAIK a seller thing.

All is not lost. 48 hours after a payment is made is the soonest that a buyer can tell paypal an item was received... which should release the funds.

Or, you can cancel our transactions.

-Chuck Harris

Dennis Tillman W7pF wrote:
If you are using PAYPAL to pay for Peter Keller's book and you DID NOT
chose to send you payment to "FRIENDS AND FAMILY" PayPal assumes (my
guess) that you are paying for something you ordered from a business.
We do not receive your payment - They keep it.
This is the message PayPal sends us:
---------|---------|---------|---------|---------|---------|----
We've placed this money on hold because we've noticed that you're a
new PayPal seller and will need time to build a positive selling
history. The money has been added to your ON-HOLD balance. It'll be
available once we can confirm that your customer has received the
goods or services.
---------|---------|---------|---------|---------|---------|----
We are NOT NEW to PayPal and we are NOT A SELLER. We have tried
numerous times to have them change this with no success.

I hope you are as angry as we are that PayPal earns interest on your
money while they are preventing us from getting it.

THIS IS WHY YOU MUST SAY YOUR PAYMENT IS TO "FRIENDS AND FAMILY"

IF YOU DID NOT USE "FRIENDS AND FAMILY" you have these options:
(1) Cancel the transaction and send another payment. This time
use FRIENDS AND FAMILY.
(2) Notify PayPal that you received the book IMMEDIATELY.
(3) Buy the book on Amazon for $70 to $150.
(4) Pay $650 to buy the book on eBay right now.
(5) If you do not consider me a "FRIEND" that you can trust with
your payment think about this: I spent the past four years
of my life as the moderator of TekScopes because I care
about preserving the part of Tektronix's legacy when the
instruments they created were the gold standard of the
Electronics Industry. I arranged for our members to acquire
Peter's book because I know how important it is. I do not
get anything for doing this. The opposite is true: It has
taken substantial effort and time to make this possible.

On Dec 2, the funds I received, less the postage and supplies I
ordered, will be given to Peter along with a list of the people whose
money has CLEARED our PayPal account. He will personally autograph a
book to each of those people and I will mail them.

Then I will be able to return to what I love doing (before I came up
with this bright idea): Playing with all my Tek toys.

Whatever option you choose be aware that we will probably take all of
the remaining copies of Peter's book. There will be no more if we do
that.
Dennis Tillman W7pF












--
Dennis Tillman W7pF
TekScopes Moderator


Chuck Harris
 

Hi Dennis,

Pay money, get new book from author. That is the very definition
of a commercial transaction.

This has nothing to do with me not trusting you. This has
everything to do with my not violating paypal's terms of service.

Regardless, I can't undo the payment. Paypal won't let me.

In 48 hours, per paypal's instructions, I will say I received
the goods, they will fund your account, and life will go on.

Please don't make this into something it isn't.

-Chuck Harris

Dennis Tillman W7pF wrote:

Hi Chuck,
I can't believe you think this is a commercial transaction!
Please tell me what, if anything, I did that gave you this impression.
What have I done that you felt you could not tell PayPal that you trust me?

If I were a business I would have to charge a lot more to even break even on this hair-brained scheme I came up with to make it possible for TekScopes members to get this book for half price.

It is true that I padded each order for my benefit: I added $3.00 for the 100 corrugated boxes I had to buy ($52 + $12 to ship them to me) to mail the books in and for trips to the post office to get the cheapest rates possible to keep the cost of this to a bare minimum. I bought mailing labels to use ($19). I will probably use half a roll of packing tape (~$3.00)I spent 1 hour on the internet searching for the right size boxes and ordering them. I made 3 trips to the post office to get rates too all the destinations I had to deal with. Standing on line and then waiting while the postal clerk hunted for the lowest rates took about 2 hours. I have at least one more trip to the post office to mail all the books domestically. International orders take about 10 to 15 minutes each at the post office for me to fill out customs forms and for the postal clerk to type in the information on the customs form. I have 23 of those which will probably take me 3 hours at a minimum in the post office. Working out all the ordering details took about 6 hours to be sure I got every detail right (I didn't, apparently) took about 6 hours. Replying to literally hundreds of emails I am getting over the past week (it is amazing how many people did not send me their address in spite of saying I needed it twice in my first email).

I have orders for 90 books. Supplies cost ~$85. Before this is done I will spend at least 30 hours of time to make this a success. The $3 that I allowed myself for each order works out to $270 less $85 for supplies. My profit is $185 for more than 30 hours of work. That's less than $6/hour.
I never represented myself as a business. I have no invoices, I did not offer to send anyone an invoice. I do not have a secure (https) web site to accept your order. I do not have an order number to give you. There are no paid employees here. It's just me, my wife Marian, and 5 golden retrievers (Margie, Turducken, Tequila, Nessie, and Jagger).

I am the moderator of TekScopes which has no employees. We are all volunteers, you included. Before the virus struck we talked about you coming here for a visit when your son graduated with his Ph. I am extremely disappointed that you would consider anything I do for the good of TekScopes to be a commercial transaction or that I am not someone you can trust as a friend.

Dennis Tillman W7pF

-----Original Message-----
From: TekScopes@groups.io [mailto:TekScopes@groups.io] On Behalf Of Chuck Harris
Sent: Monday, November 23, 2020 1:04 PM
To: TekScopes@groups.io
Subject: Re: [TekScopes] Why you MUST USE the PayPal "FRIENDS and FAMILY" option for Peter's book

Hi Dennis,

I don't like to use friends and family to send money for commercial transactions... it is just a thing.

Whenever possible, I try to follow Samuel Clemens' (aka Mark Twain) recommendation to always do right.... Something about astonishing friends, and confounding enemies... Or, whatever.

However, since several of us didn't follow your instructions, we are stuck. Paypal doesn't seem to allow a buyer to cancel a commercial transaction... It wouldn't be fair to the seller. So, cancelling a commercial transaction is AFAIK a seller thing.

All is not lost. 48 hours after a payment is made is the soonest that a buyer can tell paypal an item was received... which should release the funds.

Or, you can cancel our transactions.

-Chuck Harris

Dennis Tillman W7pF wrote:
If you are using PAYPAL to pay for Peter Keller's book and you DID NOT
chose to send you payment to "FRIENDS AND FAMILY" PayPal assumes (my
guess) that you are paying for something you ordered from a business.
We do not receive your payment - They keep it.
This is the message PayPal sends us:
---------|---------|---------|---------|---------|---------|----
We've placed this money on hold because we've noticed that you're a
new PayPal seller and will need time to build a positive selling
history. The money has been added to your ON-HOLD balance. It'll be
available once we can confirm that your customer has received the
goods or services.
---------|---------|---------|---------|---------|---------|----
We are NOT NEW to PayPal and we are NOT A SELLER. We have tried
numerous times to have them change this with no success.

I hope you are as angry as we are that PayPal earns interest on your
money while they are preventing us from getting it.

THIS IS WHY YOU MUST SAY YOUR PAYMENT IS TO "FRIENDS AND FAMILY"

IF YOU DID NOT USE "FRIENDS AND FAMILY" you have these options:
(1) Cancel the transaction and send another payment. This time
use FRIENDS AND FAMILY.
(2) Notify PayPal that you received the book IMMEDIATELY.
(3) Buy the book on Amazon for $70 to $150.
(4) Pay $650 to buy the book on eBay right now.
(5) If you do not consider me a "FRIEND" that you can trust with
your payment think about this: I spent the past four years
of my life as the moderator of TekScopes because I care
about preserving the part of Tektronix's legacy when the
instruments they created were the gold standard of the
Electronics Industry. I arranged for our members to acquire
Peter's book because I know how important it is. I do not
get anything for doing this. The opposite is true: It has
taken substantial effort and time to make this possible.

On Dec 2, the funds I received, less the postage and supplies I
ordered, will be given to Peter along with a list of the people whose
money has CLEARED our PayPal account. He will personally autograph a
book to each of those people and I will mail them.

Then I will be able to return to what I love doing (before I came up
with this bright idea): Playing with all my Tek toys.

Whatever option you choose be aware that we will probably take all of
the remaining copies of Peter's book. There will be no more if we do
that.
Dennis Tillman W7pF












Paul Amaranth
 

I don't know why but this has gotten much harder to do that it used to
be or even should be.

The last couple of times I did this I had a hard time finding the right path
through their web site and I even had to back out of things before finishing
the transaction.

It's there, but it you don't get to friends and family or trusted friend or
something else of that ilk before the final click you're not in the right place.

And to Dennis: a big THANK YOU for being so supportive of the group. I didn't
order one of the books, but I do appreciate your efforts nonetheless!

Paul
--
Paul Amaranth, GCIH | Manchester MI, USA
Aurora Group of Michigan, LLC | Security, Systems & Software
paul@AuroraGrp.Com | Unix/Linux - We don't do windows


Jack Reynolds
 

Dennis,

I think that Paul echoes what a lot of us think about you and this endeavor.  You are the epitome of a "trusted friend" to a lot of us!  You are a renaissance man, engineer, scientist, historian and counselor to us all!  But if I ever ask you to do a business plan for me, JUST SHOOT ME!

Jack

On 11/23/2020 5:46 PM, Paul Amaranth wrote:
I don't know why but this has gotten much harder to do that it used to
be or even should be.

The last couple of times I did this I had a hard time finding the right path
through their web site and I even had to back out of things before finishing
the transaction.

It's there, but it you don't get to friends and family or trusted friend or
something else of that ilk before the final click you're not in the right place.

And to Dennis: a big THANK YOU for being so supportive of the group. I didn't
order one of the books, but I do appreciate your efforts nonetheless!

Paul


Colin Herbert
 

For Heaven's sake , people, let's get this right! Dennis has gone out on a limb and got us all a good deal. If you can't cope with that, then I suggest you perhaps visit your local church and talk to a priest. I must add that I am totally atheistic and probably a touch drunk at the moment (23:30 local UK time), but reasonability is paramount. Who is most precious to us, some billionaire that in sucking our blood and in charge of a multibillion-dollar enterprise, or a good and indefatigable friend like Dennis???
Colin.

-----Original Message-----
From: TekScopes@groups.io [mailto:TekScopes@groups.io] On Behalf Of Dennis Tillman W7pF
Sent: 23 November 2020 22:20
To: TekScopes@groups.io
Subject: Re: [TekScopes] Why you MUST USE the PayPal "FRIENDS and FAMILY" option for Peter's book

Hi Chuck,
I can't believe you think this is a commercial transaction!
Please tell me what, if anything, I did that gave you this impression.
What have I done that you felt you could not tell PayPal that you trust me?

If I were a business I would have to charge a lot more to even break even on this hair-brained scheme I came up with to make it possible for TekScopes members to get this book for half price.

It is true that I padded each order for my benefit: I added $3.00 for the 100 corrugated boxes I had to buy ($52 + $12 to ship them to me) to mail the books in and for trips to the post office to get the cheapest rates possible to keep the cost of this to a bare minimum. I bought mailing labels to use ($19). I will probably use half a roll of packing tape (~$3.00)I spent 1 hour on the internet searching for the right size boxes and ordering them. I made 3 trips to the post office to get rates too all the destinations I had to deal with. Standing on line and then waiting while the postal clerk hunted for the lowest rates took about 2 hours. I have at least one more trip to the post office to mail all the books domestically. International orders take about 10 to 15 minutes each at the post office for me to fill out customs forms and for the postal clerk to type in the information on the customs form. I have 23 of those which will probably take me 3 hours at a minimum in the post office. Working out all the ordering details took about 6 hours to be sure I got every detail right (I didn't, apparently) took about 6 hours. Replying to literally hundreds of emails I am getting over the past week (it is amazing how many people did not send me their address in spite of saying I needed it twice in my first email).

I have orders for 90 books. Supplies cost ~$85. Before this is done I will spend at least 30 hours of time to make this a success. The $3 that I allowed myself for each order works out to $270 less $85 for supplies. My profit is $185 for more than 30 hours of work. That's less than $6/hour.
I never represented myself as a business. I have no invoices, I did not offer to send anyone an invoice. I do not have a secure (https) web site to accept your order. I do not have an order number to give you. There are no paid employees here. It's just me, my wife Marian, and 5 golden retrievers (Margie, Turducken, Tequila, Nessie, and Jagger).

I am the moderator of TekScopes which has no employees. We are all volunteers, you included. Before the virus struck we talked about you coming here for a visit when your son graduated with his Ph. I am extremely disappointed that you would consider anything I do for the good of TekScopes to be a commercial transaction or that I am not someone you can trust as a friend.

Dennis Tillman W7pF

-----Original Message-----
From: TekScopes@groups.io [mailto:TekScopes@groups.io] On Behalf Of Chuck Harris
Sent: Monday, November 23, 2020 1:04 PM
To: TekScopes@groups.io
Subject: Re: [TekScopes] Why you MUST USE the PayPal "FRIENDS and FAMILY" option for Peter's book

Hi Dennis,

I don't like to use friends and family to send money for commercial transactions... it is just a thing.

Whenever possible, I try to follow Samuel Clemens' (aka Mark Twain) recommendation to always do right.... Something about astonishing friends, and confounding enemies... Or, whatever.

However, since several of us didn't follow your instructions, we are stuck. Paypal doesn't seem to allow a buyer to cancel a commercial transaction... It wouldn't be fair to the seller. So, cancelling a commercial transaction is AFAIK a seller thing.

All is not lost. 48 hours after a payment is made is the soonest that a buyer can tell paypal an item was received... which should release the funds.

Or, you can cancel our transactions.

-Chuck Harris

Dennis Tillman W7pF wrote:
If you are using PAYPAL to pay for Peter Keller's book and you DID NOT
chose to send you payment to "FRIENDS AND FAMILY" PayPal assumes (my
guess) that you are paying for something you ordered from a business.
We do not receive your payment - They keep it.
This is the message PayPal sends us:
---------|---------|---------|---------|---------|---------|----
We've placed this money on hold because we've noticed that you're a
new PayPal seller and will need time to build a positive selling
history. The money has been added to your ON-HOLD balance. It'll be
available once we can confirm that your customer has received the
goods or services.
---------|---------|---------|---------|---------|---------|----
We are NOT NEW to PayPal and we are NOT A SELLER. We have tried
numerous times to have them change this with no success.

I hope you are as angry as we are that PayPal earns interest on your
money while they are preventing us from getting it.

THIS IS WHY YOU MUST SAY YOUR PAYMENT IS TO "FRIENDS AND FAMILY"

IF YOU DID NOT USE "FRIENDS AND FAMILY" you have these options:
(1) Cancel the transaction and send another payment. This time
use FRIENDS AND FAMILY.
(2) Notify PayPal that you received the book IMMEDIATELY.
(3) Buy the book on Amazon for $70 to $150.
(4) Pay $650 to buy the book on eBay right now.
(5) If you do not consider me a "FRIEND" that you can trust with
your payment think about this: I spent the past four years
of my life as the moderator of TekScopes because I care
about preserving the part of Tektronix's legacy when the
instruments they created were the gold standard of the
Electronics Industry. I arranged for our members to acquire
Peter's book because I know how important it is. I do not
get anything for doing this. The opposite is true: It has
taken substantial effort and time to make this possible.

On Dec 2, the funds I received, less the postage and supplies I
ordered, will be given to Peter along with a list of the people whose
money has CLEARED our PayPal account. He will personally autograph a
book to each of those people and I will mail them.

Then I will be able to return to what I love doing (before I came up
with this bright idea): Playing with all my Tek toys.

Whatever option you choose be aware that we will probably take all of
the remaining copies of Peter's book. There will be no more if we do
that.
Dennis Tillman W7pF












--
Dennis Tillman W7pF
TekScopes Moderator


Colin Herbert
 

Correction (probable given the wine and gin I have consumed tonight - I apologise) :
"some billionaire that _is_ sucking our blood".
Good Contabling Evenable".
Colin.

-----Original Message-----
From: TekScopes@groups.io [mailto:TekScopes@groups.io] On Behalf Of Colin Herbert via groups.io
Sent: 23 November 2020 23:57
To: TekScopes@groups.io
Subject: Re: [TekScopes] Why you MUST USE the PayPal "FRIENDS and FAMILY" option for Peter's book

For Heaven's sake , people, let's get this right! Dennis has gone out on a limb and got us all a good deal. If you can't cope with that, then I suggest you perhaps visit your local church and talk to a priest. I must add that I am totally atheistic and probably a touch drunk at the moment (23:30 local UK time), but reasonability is paramount. Who is most precious to us, some billionaire that in sucking our blood and in charge of a multibillion-dollar enterprise, or a good and indefatigable friend like Dennis???
Colin.

-----Original Message-----
From: TekScopes@groups.io [mailto:TekScopes@groups.io] On Behalf Of Dennis Tillman W7pF
Sent: 23 November 2020 22:20
To: TekScopes@groups.io
Subject: Re: [TekScopes] Why you MUST USE the PayPal "FRIENDS and FAMILY" option for Peter's book

Hi Chuck,
I can't believe you think this is a commercial transaction!
Please tell me what, if anything, I did that gave you this impression.
What have I done that you felt you could not tell PayPal that you trust me?

If I were a business I would have to charge a lot more to even break even on this hair-brained scheme I came up with to make it possible for TekScopes members to get this book for half price.

It is true that I padded each order for my benefit: I added $3.00 for the 100 corrugated boxes I had to buy ($52 + $12 to ship them to me) to mail the books in and for trips to the post office to get the cheapest rates possible to keep the cost of this to a bare minimum. I bought mailing labels to use ($19). I will probably use half a roll of packing tape (~$3.00)I spent 1 hour on the internet searching for the right size boxes and ordering them. I made 3 trips to the post office to get rates too all the destinations I had to deal with. Standing on line and then waiting while the postal clerk hunted for the lowest rates took about 2 hours. I have at least one more trip to the post office to mail all the books domestically. International orders take about 10 to 15 minutes each at the post office for me to fill out customs forms and for the postal clerk to type in the information on the customs form. I have 23 of those which will probably take me 3 hours at a minimum in the post office. Working out all the ordering details took about 6 hours to be sure I got every detail right (I didn't, apparently) took about 6 hours. Replying to literally hundreds of emails I am getting over the past week (it is amazing how many people did not send me their address in spite of saying I needed it twice in my first email).

I have orders for 90 books. Supplies cost ~$85. Before this is done I will spend at least 30 hours of time to make this a success. The $3 that I allowed myself for each order works out to $270 less $85 for supplies. My profit is $185 for more than 30 hours of work. That's less than $6/hour.
I never represented myself as a business. I have no invoices, I did not offer to send anyone an invoice. I do not have a secure (https) web site to accept your order. I do not have an order number to give you. There are no paid employees here. It's just me, my wife Marian, and 5 golden retrievers (Margie, Turducken, Tequila, Nessie, and Jagger).

I am the moderator of TekScopes which has no employees. We are all volunteers, you included. Before the virus struck we talked about you coming here for a visit when your son graduated with his Ph. I am extremely disappointed that you would consider anything I do for the good of TekScopes to be a commercial transaction or that I am not someone you can trust as a friend.

Dennis Tillman W7pF

-----Original Message-----
From: TekScopes@groups.io [mailto:TekScopes@groups.io] On Behalf Of Chuck Harris
Sent: Monday, November 23, 2020 1:04 PM
To: TekScopes@groups.io
Subject: Re: [TekScopes] Why you MUST USE the PayPal "FRIENDS and FAMILY" option for Peter's book

Hi Dennis,

I don't like to use friends and family to send money for commercial transactions... it is just a thing.

Whenever possible, I try to follow Samuel Clemens' (aka Mark Twain) recommendation to always do right.... Something about astonishing friends, and confounding enemies... Or, whatever.

However, since several of us didn't follow your instructions, we are stuck. Paypal doesn't seem to allow a buyer to cancel a commercial transaction... It wouldn't be fair to the seller. So, cancelling a commercial transaction is AFAIK a seller thing.

All is not lost. 48 hours after a payment is made is the soonest that a buyer can tell paypal an item was received... which should release the funds.

Or, you can cancel our transactions.

-Chuck Harris

Dennis Tillman W7pF wrote:
If you are using PAYPAL to pay for Peter Keller's book and you DID NOT
chose to send you payment to "FRIENDS AND FAMILY" PayPal assumes (my
guess) that you are paying for something you ordered from a business.
We do not receive your payment - They keep it.
This is the message PayPal sends us:
---------|---------|---------|---------|---------|---------|----
We've placed this money on hold because we've noticed that you're a
new PayPal seller and will need time to build a positive selling
history. The money has been added to your ON-HOLD balance. It'll be
available once we can confirm that your customer has received the
goods or services.
---------|---------|---------|---------|---------|---------|----
We are NOT NEW to PayPal and we are NOT A SELLER. We have tried
numerous times to have them change this with no success.

I hope you are as angry as we are that PayPal earns interest on your
money while they are preventing us from getting it.

THIS IS WHY YOU MUST SAY YOUR PAYMENT IS TO "FRIENDS AND FAMILY"

IF YOU DID NOT USE "FRIENDS AND FAMILY" you have these options:
(1) Cancel the transaction and send another payment. This time
use FRIENDS AND FAMILY.
(2) Notify PayPal that you received the book IMMEDIATELY.
(3) Buy the book on Amazon for $70 to $150.
(4) Pay $650 to buy the book on eBay right now.
(5) If you do not consider me a "FRIEND" that you can trust with
your payment think about this: I spent the past four years
of my life as the moderator of TekScopes because I care
about preserving the part of Tektronix's legacy when the
instruments they created were the gold standard of the
Electronics Industry. I arranged for our members to acquire
Peter's book because I know how important it is. I do not
get anything for doing this. The opposite is true: It has
taken substantial effort and time to make this possible.

On Dec 2, the funds I received, less the postage and supplies I
ordered, will be given to Peter along with a list of the people whose
money has CLEARED our PayPal account. He will personally autograph a
book to each of those people and I will mail them.

Then I will be able to return to what I love doing (before I came up
with this bright idea): Playing with all my Tek toys.

Whatever option you choose be aware that we will probably take all of
the remaining copies of Peter's book. There will be no more if we do
that.
Dennis Tillman W7pF












--
Dennis Tillman W7pF
TekScopes Moderator


 

Dennis,

If PayPal had offered me the option to use "Friends and Family" or "Gift" (or any option, for that matter) during my transaction, I would have used it without hesitation. PayPal's web interface never offered me any kind of option to categorize my payment. It is also not offering me the option to cancel the payment, and is saying that I can not confirm receipt of the order until 48 hours after the payment was made.

Since I can't cancel the payment I will confirm the order as soon as PayPal allows me to do so. I hope this all works out, and I appreciate the effort that you have expended. I'm just frustrated with PayPal.

Thank you again for the effort you have put into this process.

-- Jeffrey Dutky


Frank DuVal
 

OK, so we have a "commercial" transaction from a NON -COMMERCIAL person.

Is that explained in your PayPal terms of service?

Does Dennis have a business license as a book seller? I  think not. He is just a friend of us.

Thanks again, Dennis!

Frank DuVal

On 11/23/2020 5:34 PM, Chuck Harris wrote:
Hi Dennis,

Pay money, get new book from author. That is the very definition
of a commercial transaction.

This has nothing to do with me not trusting you. This has
everything to do with my not violating paypal's terms of service.


Chuck Harris
 

Dennis used the term commercial. Paypal simply specifies
buying goods and services.

Enough on this. I made a mistake trying to use paypal in
the honest manner I agreed upon when I opened the account.

No matter your or anyone else's opinion, Paypal won't allow
me to screw the seller by yanking my money back!

Tomorrow, I will tell them I received my goods, and order should
be restored to tekscopes. All before the payment deadline

-Chuck Harris

Frank DuVal via groups.io wrote:

OK, so we have a "commercial" transaction from a NON -COMMERCIAL person.

Is that explained in your PayPal terms of service?

Does Dennis have a business license as a book seller? I  think not. He is just a
friend of us.

Thanks again, Dennis!

Frank DuVal

On 11/23/2020 5:34 PM, Chuck Harris wrote:
Hi Dennis,

Pay money, get new book from author.  That is the very definition
of a commercial transaction.

This has nothing to do with me not trusting you.  This has
everything to do with my not violating paypal's terms of service.





 

Dennis,

I have finally been allowed to confirm receipt of the book in PayPal.

While I appreciate the effort you have put into this, the experience with PayPal has only reinforced my already negative opinion of the company and service. I understand why you chose to use it, but I feel as if they have gone out of their way to make things as difficult and unfriendly as possible. I am sure, however, that the book will be more than worth the anxiety and frustration.

Thanks again for putting this together.

-- Jeff Dutky


Jean-Paul
 

Dear Dennis, we are fortunate to have the chance to buy this book.

I Understand completely the issues in PayPal.

I notice that the email for the PayPal account seems to be an organization. If it received many payments marked "friends and family" the PayPal robots may raise a red flag.

IDEA.... you could offer an alternative payment to PayPal:
eg the buyer posts to you or Peter a check ( only for buying by USA not overseas)
Just a name and address needed, NO PayPal holding, fees or commercial vs friends questions.

I am gladly going to send the $37, but I await your response, as I prefer to post a check.

DENNIS THANKS FOR ALL YOUR KIND WORK OVER THE YEARS!

from A very grateful TEK afficanado ( since 1970!)

Jon


kim.herron@sbcglobal.net
 

Hi Jeff,

I've been with Paypal for over 20 years. They have
security measures in place like every other bank. I've
never had an issue with paying or receiving money from
anyone either. I won't use any other payment option,
unless someone wants to send a check or postal money
order. I'd like to know what your issues are because I
have a LOT of stuff that I'd like to list here for sale and
if there is some issues that are making things difficult to
pay for things, I'd like to know about it

Thanks!!!

On 25 Nov 2020 at 8:56, Jeff Dutky wrote:

Dennis,

I have finally been allowed to confirm receipt of the book in
PayPal.

While I appreciate the effort you have put into this, the experience
with PayPal has only reinforced my already negative opinion of the
company and service. I understand why you chose to use it, but I
feel as if they have gone out of their way to make things as
difficult and unfriendly as possible. I am sure, however, that the
book will be more than worth the anxiety and frustration.

Thanks again for putting this together.

-- Jeff Dutky




John Goller, K9UWA & Jean Goller, N9PXF
Antique Radio Restorations
k9uwa@arrl.net
Visit our Web Site at:
http://www.JohnJeanAntiqueRadio.com
4836 Ranch Road
Leo, IN 46765
USA
1-260-637-6426


 

John Goller wrote:

I'd like to know what your issues are because I have a
LOT of stuff that I'd like to list here for sale and if there
is some issues that are making things difficult to pay
for things, I'd like to know about it
I don't have particular issues, other than complaints about this particular process (not being offered the options that would have made this process easy), and about the quality of their buyer interface (every time I have tried to log into their web interface I have had to do the "I'm not a robot" dance, and every time the site has responded with "something went wrong on our end" throwing me back to the "I'm not a robot" screen, so that I get to do the dance again, and maybe a third time. That's shoddy UX on PayPal's part, and I haven't got any patience for that sort of thing. Also there's no indication of how far along in the buying process you are, so you just have to keep clicking Continue until suddenly the process is over. That's also shoddy UX). My only other complaints about PayPal are mere hearsay, but I've heard too many stories of sellers having their funds frozen over the years to think that maybe there isn't at least a little bit of fire behind that smoke.

That said, I understand why people want to use PayPal: they fill a niche that, even today, has very few players. If you want to accept payment over the web you just don't have many choices, and the established choices (credit card merchant accounts) are not well suited to small players. When PayPal got started they were basically the only game in town for people who couldn't afford to set up a merchant account, and that benefit can not be overestimated. Still, I'm a grumpy sort, and this is one of the things I'm grumpy about.

-- Jeff Dutky


Jared Cabot
 

On Thu, Nov 26, 2020 at 03:01 PM, Jeff Dutky wrote:

....
My only other complaints about PayPal are mere hearsay, but I've heard too
many stories of sellers having their funds frozen over the years to think
that maybe there isn't at least a little bit of fire behind that smoke.
....

-- Jeff Dutky
I thought about this a bit, with the huge volume of paypal transactions every day across the world, the actual number of horror stories would have to be a fraction of a fraction of a percent.


 

Hi Jeffrey,
Apologies for not responding until now but I have been overwhelmed with the response for Peter's book and I finally have the time to respond to the email I didn't have time to reply to until now.

I think from what I have read that PayPal must have changed the wording of their choices to "Trusted Recipient" instead of "Friends and Family". They have changed a few other things to make it more difficult to figure out how to answer their questions to avoid all their fees completely.

You payment was eventually released but PayPal charged me a $2.00 fee. I would appreciate it if you could send an additional $2.00 since I was only charging everyone
Peter's cost for his book: $30.00;
USPS media rate mail for postage: $4.00;
Shipping supplies I bought (book mailer boxes, labels, and tape) $2;
My time (packing up the books, printing labels, multiple trips to the P.O to get the cheapest rates, etc): $1.
That was how I came up with the $37.00 total for each book.

What I forgot to include was the 40+ hours it took to get everyone's names and addresses, answer all the emails, locate missing payments, keep track of the orders, match the orders to the payments, deal with PayPal screw-ups, and double check that I got every order correct.

In the end I think I probably made less that $5/hour and that is something for me to think about before I come up with another one of my bright ideas.

Dennis

-----Original Message-----
From: TekScopes@groups.io [mailto:TekScopes@groups.io] On Behalf Of Jeff Dutky
Sent: Monday, November 23, 2020 8:31 PM
To: TekScopes@groups.io
Subject: Re: [TekScopes] Why you MUST USE the PayPal "FRIENDS and FAMILY" option for Peter's book

Dennis,

If PayPal had offered me the option to use "Friends and Family" or "Gift" (or any option, for that matter) during my transaction, I would have used it without hesitation. PayPal's web interface never offered me any kind of option to categorize my payment. It is also not offering me the option to cancel the payment, and is saying that I can not confirm receipt of the order until 48 hours after the payment was made.

Since I can't cancel the payment I will confirm the order as soon as PayPal allows me to do so. I hope this all works out, and I appreciate the effort that you have expended. I'm just frustrated with PayPal.

Thank you again for the effort you have put into this process.

-- Jeffrey Dutky







--
Dennis Tillman W7pF
TekScopes Moderator