If you are using PAYPAL to pay for Peter Keller's book and you
DID NOT chose to send you payment to "FRIENDS AND FAMILY" PayPal
assumes (my guess) that you are paying for something you ordered
from a business. We do not receive your payment - They keep it.
This is the message PayPal sends us:
---------|---------|---------|---------|---------|---------|----
We've placed this money on hold because we've noticed that
you're a new PayPal seller and will need time to build a
positive selling history. The money has been added to your
ON-HOLD balance. It'll be available once we can confirm that
your customer has received the goods or services.
---------|---------|---------|---------|---------|---------|----
We are NOT NEW to PayPal and we are NOT A SELLER. We have tried
numerous times to have them change this with no success.

I hope you are as angry as we are that PayPal earns interest
on your money while they are preventing us from getting it.

THIS IS WHY YOU MUST SAY YOUR PAYMENT IS TO "FRIENDS AND FAMILY"

IF YOU DID NOT USE "FRIENDS AND FAMILY" you have these options:
(1) Cancel the transaction and send another payment. This time
use FRIENDS AND FAMILY.
(2) Notify PayPal that you received the book IMMEDIATELY.
(3) Buy the book on Amazon for $70 to $150.
(4) Pay $650 to buy the book on eBay right now.
(5) If you do not consider me a "FRIEND" that you can trust with
your payment think about this: I spent the past four years
of my life as the moderator of TekScopes because I care
about preserving the part of Tektronix's legacy when the
instruments they created were the gold standard of the
Electronics Industry. I arranged for our members to acquire
Peter's book because I know how important it is. I do not
get anything for doing this. The opposite is true: It has
taken substantial effort and time to make this possible.

On Dec 2, the funds I received, less the postage and supplies I
ordered, will be given to Peter along with a list of the people
whose money has CLEARED our PayPal account. He will personally
autograph a book to each of those people and I will mail them.

Then I will be able to return to what I love doing (before I
came up with this bright idea): Playing with all my Tek toys.

Whatever option you choose be aware that we will probably take
all of the remaining copies of Peter's book. There will be no
more if we do that.
Dennis Tillman W7pF

If you are using PAYPAL to pay for Peter Keller's book and you DID NOT
chose to send you payment to "FRIENDS AND FAMILY" PayPal assumes (my
guess) that you are paying for something you ordered from a business.
We do not receive your payment - They keep it.
This is the message PayPal sends us:
---------|---------|---------|---------|---------|---------|----
We've placed this money on hold because we've noticed that you're a
new PayPal seller and will need time to build a positive selling
history. The money has been added to your ON-HOLD balance. It'll be
available once we can confirm that your customer has received the
goods or services.
---------|---------|---------|---------|---------|---------|----
We are NOT NEW to PayPal and we are NOT A SELLER. We have tried
numerous times to have them change this with no success.

I hope you are as angry as we are that PayPal earns interest on your
money while they are preventing us from getting it.

THIS IS WHY YOU MUST SAY YOUR PAYMENT IS TO "FRIENDS AND FAMILY"

IF YOU DID NOT USE "FRIENDS AND FAMILY" you have these options:
(1) Cancel the transaction and send another payment. This time
use FRIENDS AND FAMILY.
(2) Notify PayPal that you received the book IMMEDIATELY.
(3) Buy the book on Amazon for $70 to $150.
(4) Pay $650 to buy the book on eBay right now.
(5) If you do not consider me a "FRIEND" that you can trust with
your payment think about this: I spent the past four years
of my life as the moderator of TekScopes because I care
about preserving the part of Tektronix's legacy when the
instruments they created were the gold standard of the
Electronics Industry. I arranged for our members to acquire
Peter's book because I know how important it is. I do not
get anything for doing this. The opposite is true: It has
taken substantial effort and time to make this possible.

On Dec 2, the funds I received, less the postage and supplies I
ordered, will be given to Peter along with a list of the people whose
money has CLEARED our PayPal account. He will personally autograph a
book to each of those people and I will mail them.

Then I will be able to return to what I love doing (before I came up
with this bright idea): Playing with all my Tek toys.

Whatever option you choose be aware that we will probably take all of
the remaining copies of Peter's book. There will be no more if we do
that.
Dennis Tillman W7pF

Hi Chuck,
I can't believe you think this is a commercial transaction!
Please tell me what, if anything, I did that gave you this impression.
What have I done that you felt you could not tell PayPal that you trust me?

If I were a business I would have to charge a lot more to even break even on this hair-brained scheme I came up with to make it possible for TekScopes members to get this book for half price.

It is true that I padded each order for my benefit: I added $3.00 for the 100 corrugated boxes I had to buy ($52 + $12 to ship them to me) to mail the books in and for trips to the post office to get the cheapest rates possible to keep the cost of this to a bare minimum. I bought mailing labels to use ($19). I will probably use half a roll of packing tape (~$3.00)I spent 1 hour on the internet searching for the right size boxes and ordering them. I made 3 trips to the post office to get rates too all the destinations I had to deal with. Standing on line and then waiting while the postal clerk hunted for the lowest rates took about 2 hours. I have at least one more trip to the post office to mail all the books domestically. International orders take about 10 to 15 minutes each at the post office for me to fill out customs forms and for the postal clerk to type in the information on the customs form. I have 23 of those which will probably take me 3 hours at a minimum in the post office. Working out all the ordering details took about 6 hours to be sure I got every detail right (I didn't, apparently) took about 6 hours. Replying to literally hundreds of emails I am getting over the past week (it is amazing how many people did not send me their address in spite of saying I needed it twice in my first email).

I have orders for 90 books. Supplies cost ~$85. Before this is done I will spend at least 30 hours of time to make this a success. The $3 that I allowed myself for each order works out to $270 less $85 for supplies. My profit is $185 for more than 30 hours of work. That's less than $6/hour.
I never represented myself as a business. I have no invoices, I did not offer to send anyone an invoice. I do not have a secure (https) web site to accept your order. I do not have an order number to give you. There are no paid employees here. It's just me, my wife Marian, and 5 golden retrievers (Margie, Turducken, Tequila, Nessie, and Jagger).

I am the moderator of TekScopes which has no employees. We are all volunteers, you included. Before the virus struck we talked about you coming here for a visit when your son graduated with his Ph. I am extremely disappointed that you would consider anything I do for the good of TekScopes to be a commercial transaction or that I am not someone you can trust as a friend.

Dennis Tillman W7pF

-----Original Message-----
From: TekScopes@groups.io [mailto:TekScopes@groups.io] On Behalf Of Chuck Harris
Sent: Monday, November 23, 2020 1:04 PM
To: TekScopes@groups.io
Subject: Re: [TekScopes] Why you MUST USE the PayPal "FRIENDS and FAMILY" option for Peter's book

Hi Dennis,

I don't like to use friends and family to send money for commercial transactions... it is just a thing.

Whenever possible, I try to follow Samuel Clemens' (aka Mark Twain) recommendation to always do right.... Something about astonishing friends, and confounding enemies... Or, whatever.

However, since several of us didn't follow your instructions, we are stuck. Paypal doesn't seem to allow a buyer to cancel a commercial transaction... It wouldn't be fair to the seller. So, cancelling a commercial transaction is AFAIK a seller thing.

All is not lost. 48 hours after a payment is made is the soonest that a buyer can tell paypal an item was received... which should release the funds.

Or, you can cancel our transactions.

-Chuck Harris

Dennis Tillman W7pF wrote:

If you are using PAYPAL to pay for Peter Keller's book and you DID NOT
chose to send you payment to "FRIENDS AND FAMILY" PayPal assumes (my
guess) that you are paying for something you ordered from a business.
We do not receive your payment - They keep it.
This is the message PayPal sends us:
---------|---------|---------|---------|---------|---------|----
We've placed this money on hold because we've noticed that you're a
new PayPal seller and will need time to build a positive selling
history. The money has been added to your ON-HOLD balance. It'll be
available once we can confirm that your customer has received the
goods or services.
---------|---------|---------|---------|---------|---------|----
We are NOT NEW to PayPal and we are NOT A SELLER. We have tried
numerous times to have them change this with no success.

I hope you are as angry as we are that PayPal earns interest on your
money while they are preventing us from getting it.

THIS IS WHY YOU MUST SAY YOUR PAYMENT IS TO "FRIENDS AND FAMILY"

IF YOU DID NOT USE "FRIENDS AND FAMILY" you have these options:
(1) Cancel the transaction and send another payment. This time
use FRIENDS AND FAMILY.
(2) Notify PayPal that you received the book IMMEDIATELY.
(3) Buy the book on Amazon for $70 to $150.
(4) Pay $650 to buy the book on eBay right now.
(5) If you do not consider me a "FRIEND" that you can trust with
your payment think about this: I spent the past four years
of my life as the moderator of TekScopes because I care
about preserving the part of Tektronix's legacy when the
instruments they created were the gold standard of the
Electronics Industry. I arranged for our members to acquire
Peter's book because I know how important it is. I do not
get anything for doing this. The opposite is true: It has
taken substantial effort and time to make this possible.

On Dec 2, the funds I received, less the postage and supplies I
ordered, will be given to Peter along with a list of the people whose
money has CLEARED our PayPal account. He will personally autograph a
book to each of those people and I will mail them.

Then I will be able to return to what I love doing (before I came up
with this bright idea): Playing with all my Tek toys.

Whatever option you choose be aware that we will probably take all of
the remaining copies of Peter's book. There will be no more if we do
that.
Dennis Tillman W7pF

I don't know why but this has gotten much harder to do that it used to
be or even should be.

The last couple of times I did this I had a hard time finding the right path
through their web site and I even had to back out of things before finishing
the transaction.

It's there, but it you don't get to friends and family or trusted friend or
something else of that ilk before the final click you're not in the right place.

And to Dennis: a big THANK YOU for being so supportive of the group. I didn't
order one of the books, but I do appreciate your efforts nonetheless!

Paul

If you are using PAYPAL to pay for Peter Keller's book and you DID NOT
chose to send you payment to "FRIENDS AND FAMILY" PayPal assumes (my
guess) that you are paying for something you ordered from a business.
We do not receive your payment - They keep it.
This is the message PayPal sends us:
---------|---------|---------|---------|---------|---------|----
We've placed this money on hold because we've noticed that you're a
new PayPal seller and will need time to build a positive selling
history. The money has been added to your ON-HOLD balance. It'll be
available once we can confirm that your customer has received the
goods or services.
---------|---------|---------|---------|---------|---------|----
We are NOT NEW to PayPal and we are NOT A SELLER. We have tried
numerous times to have them change this with no success.

I hope you are as angry as we are that PayPal earns interest on your
money while they are preventing us from getting it.

THIS IS WHY YOU MUST SAY YOUR PAYMENT IS TO "FRIENDS AND FAMILY"

IF YOU DID NOT USE "FRIENDS AND FAMILY" you have these options:
(1) Cancel the transaction and send another payment. This time
use FRIENDS AND FAMILY.
(2) Notify PayPal that you received the book IMMEDIATELY.
(3) Buy the book on Amazon for $70 to $150.
(4) Pay $650 to buy the book on eBay right now.
(5) If you do not consider me a "FRIEND" that you can trust with
your payment think about this: I spent the past four years
of my life as the moderator of TekScopes because I care
about preserving the part of Tektronix's legacy when the
instruments they created were the gold standard of the
Electronics Industry. I arranged for our members to acquire
Peter's book because I know how important it is. I do not
get anything for doing this. The opposite is true: It has
taken substantial effort and time to make this possible.

On Dec 2, the funds I received, less the postage and supplies I
ordered, will be given to Peter along with a list of the people whose
money has CLEARED our PayPal account. He will personally autograph a
book to each of those people and I will mail them.

Then I will be able to return to what I love doing (before I came up
with this bright idea): Playing with all my Tek toys.

Whatever option you choose be aware that we will probably take all of
the remaining copies of Peter's book. There will be no more if we do
that.
Dennis Tillman W7pF

If you are using PAYPAL to pay for Peter Keller's book and you DID NOT
chose to send you payment to "FRIENDS AND FAMILY" PayPal assumes (my
guess) that you are paying for something you ordered from a business.
We do not receive your payment - They keep it.
This is the message PayPal sends us:
---------|---------|---------|---------|---------|---------|----
We've placed this money on hold because we've noticed that you're a
new PayPal seller and will need time to build a positive selling
history. The money has been added to your ON-HOLD balance. It'll be
available once we can confirm that your customer has received the
goods or services.
---------|---------|---------|---------|---------|---------|----
We are NOT NEW to PayPal and we are NOT A SELLER. We have tried
numerous times to have them change this with no success.

I hope you are as angry as we are that PayPal earns interest on your
money while they are preventing us from getting it.

THIS IS WHY YOU MUST SAY YOUR PAYMENT IS TO "FRIENDS AND FAMILY"

IF YOU DID NOT USE "FRIENDS AND FAMILY" you have these options:
(1) Cancel the transaction and send another payment. This time
use FRIENDS AND FAMILY.
(2) Notify PayPal that you received the book IMMEDIATELY.
(3) Buy the book on Amazon for $70 to $150.
(4) Pay $650 to buy the book on eBay right now.
(5) If you do not consider me a "FRIEND" that you can trust with
your payment think about this: I spent the past four years
of my life as the moderator of TekScopes because I care
about preserving the part of Tektronix's legacy when the
instruments they created were the gold standard of the
Electronics Industry. I arranged for our members to acquire
Peter's book because I know how important it is. I do not
get anything for doing this. The opposite is true: It has
taken substantial effort and time to make this possible.

On Dec 2, the funds I received, less the postage and supplies I
ordered, will be given to Peter along with a list of the people whose
money has CLEARED our PayPal account. He will personally autograph a
book to each of those people and I will mail them.

Then I will be able to return to what I love doing (before I came up
with this bright idea): Playing with all my Tek toys.

Whatever option you choose be aware that we will probably take all of
the remaining copies of Peter's book. There will be no more if we do
that.
Dennis Tillman W7pF

Hi Dennis,

Pay money, get new book from author. That is the very definition
of a commercial transaction.

This has nothing to do with me not trusting you. This has
everything to do with my not violating paypal's terms of service.

OK, so we have a "commercial" transaction from a NON -COMMERCIAL person.

Is that explained in your PayPal terms of service?

Does Dennis have a business license as a book seller? I  think not. He is just a
friend of us.

Thanks again, Dennis!

Frank DuVal

On 11/23/2020 5:34 PM, Chuck Harris wrote:

Hi Dennis,

Pay money, get new book from author.  That is the very definition
of a commercial transaction.

This has nothing to do with me not trusting you.  This has
everything to do with my not violating paypal's terms of service.