Tunnel diode pulses for calibration fixture


Gerald
 

Hi All,

I have managed to acquire new 2 x 1N3716 tunnel diodes some years back.

I have never played with these exotic diodes before, but I do need to build a calibration fixture to align my 2465B horizontal, cal 01.

I am looking for group advise to see if others have used such a device and how to approach on the best use and a simple circuit to build a cal fixture around the 1N3716.

Thank you in advance.

Regards

Gerald
VK3GJM


Jean-Paul
 

Hello, very fine post


Many threads have discussed the old Tek TD pulsers.

But CAL 01 and others like transient response really need the TEK cal gens like PG506, TM501, etc.

we also use the Leo Bodnar 40 ps pulser, very économique.

Finally Beware, TDs are super static sensitive and nanosecond overloading can kill them.

Wrap in aluminum foil or bare wire short when handling or storage

Bon journée

Jon


Morris Odell
 

Hi Gerald,

You will find a description of a Tek TD pulser at: https://w140.com/tekwiki/wiki/067-0681-01

As an alternative I have achieved pretty fast risetimes with an emitter coupled multivibrator using 2N2369 transistors built on a copper ground plane - there are probably faster transistors available now.

Tunnel diodes are indeed fragile but you don't need to go to extremes. They are not MOS devices. Commercial packaging in the 1960's was just like for any other component.

Also, I believe you can still buy affordable Russian TD's on the e place if you want to experiment with them.

Good luck,

Morris VK3DOC


durechenew@...
 

Some details about the emitter coupled multivibrator; transistors options ? This might be a better solution, considering possibilities for parameters adjustment
TT


Morris Odell
 

There are plenty of web pages on Emitter Coupled Multivibrators you can find with a Google search. One helpful page is https://cadernodelaboratorio.com.br/en/astable-multivibrator-with-a-single-capacitor/ . The ECM has the advantage of only needing one timing capacitor and that the second (output) transistor does not have to saturate so it can produce a faster transition. Also the output point at the collector of the second transistor does not drive any other part of the circuit so is not loaded or slowed down by it.

I used 2N2369 transistors in my lash up and easily obtained transitions too fast for my 50 MHz Tek 547/1A4 to measure.

If you want to find a comprehensive treatment, look no further than the classic "Pulse, Digital and Switching Waveforms" by Millman & Taub

Morris


Tom Gardner
 

If you want to use discrete components, you could use the Tektronix 485 calibrator circuit, diagram 16 in the service manual. The output stage is rather strange, uses a 50V and 2N6314s,  supply, but achieves a clean 1ns risetime into 50 ohms - and a pleasing exponential staircase into 1Mohm :)

Alternatively use three parallel 74LVC1G*+143ohms with very good decoupling. That will drive 50ohms at <300ps transition time.

There are also several threads on EEVBlog forum, of course

On 08/06/21 05:24, Morris Odell wrote:
There are plenty of web pages on Emitter Coupled Multivibrators you can find with a Google search. One helpful page is https://cadernodelaboratorio.com.br/en/astable-multivibrator-with-a-single-capacitor/ . The ECM has the advantage of only needing one timing capacitor and that the second (output) transistor does not have to saturate so it can produce a faster transition. Also the output point at the collector of the second transistor does not drive any other part of the circuit so is not loaded or slowed down by it.

I used 2N2369 transistors in my lash up and easily obtained transitions too fast for my 50 MHz Tek 547/1A4 to measure.

If you want to find a comprehensive treatment, look no further than the classic "Pulse, Digital and Switching Waveforms" by Millman & Taub


 

Tom,
The three 74LVC1Gs, is that what you made those small pulse generator boards you left with me out of? They work brilliantly

Robin

On 8 Jun 2021, at 08:36, Tom Gardner <tggzzz@gmail.com> wrote:

If you want to use discrete components, you could use the Tektronix 485 calibrator circuit, diagram 16 in the service manual. The output stage is rather strange, uses a 50V and 2N6314s, supply, but achieves a clean 1ns risetime into 50 ohms - and a pleasing exponential staircase into 1Mohm :)

Alternatively use three parallel 74LVC1G*+143ohms with very good decoupling. That will drive 50ohms at <300ps transition time.

There are also several threads on EEVBlog forum, of course


On 08/06/21 05:24, Morris Odell wrote:
There are plenty of web pages on Emitter Coupled Multivibrators you can find with a Google search. One helpful page is https://cadernodelaboratorio.com.br/en/astable-multivibrator-with-a-single-capacitor/ . The ECM has the advantage of only needing one timing capacitor and that the second (output) transistor does not have to saturate so it can produce a faster transition. Also the output point at the collector of the second transistor does not drive any other part of the circuit so is not loaded or slowed down by it.

I used 2N2369 transistors in my lash up and easily obtained transitions too fast for my 50 MHz Tek 547/1A4 to measure.

If you want to find a comprehensive treatment, look no further than the classic "Pulse, Digital and Switching Waveforms" by Millman & Taub





Tom Gardner
 

On 08/06/21 09:23, Robin_Birch wrote:
Tom,
The three 74LVC1Gs, is that what you made those small pulse generator boards you left with me out of? They work brilliantly

Robin
On 8 Jun 2021, at 08:36, Tom Gardner <tggzzz@gmail.com> wrote:

If you want to use discrete components, you could use the Tektronix 485 calibrator circuit, diagram 16 in the service manual. The output stage is rather strange, uses a 50V and 2N6314s, supply, but achieves a clean 1ns risetime into 50 ohms - and a pleasing exponential staircase into 1Mohm :)

Alternatively use three parallel 74LVC1G*+143ohms with very good decoupling. That will drive 50ohms at <300ps transition time.

There are also several threads on EEVBlog forum, of course


On 08/06/21 05:24, Morris Odell wrote:
There are plenty of web pages on Emitter Coupled Multivibrators you can find with a Google search. One helpful page is https://cadernodelaboratorio.com.br/en/astable-multivibrator-with-a-single-capacitor/ . The ECM has the advantage of only needing one timing capacitor and that the second (output) transistor does not have to saturate so it can produce a faster transition. Also the output point at the collector of the second transistor does not drive any other part of the circuit so is not loaded or slowed down by it.

I used 2N2369 transistors in my lash up and easily obtained transitions too fast for my 50 MHz Tek 547/1A4 to measure.

If you want to find a comprehensive treatment, look no further than the classic "Pulse, Digital and Switching Waveforms" by Millman & Taub






Torch
 


Roy Thistle
 

On Mon, Jun 7, 2021 at 12:43 AM, Gerald wrote:


how to approach on the best use and a simple circuit
Hi VK3GJM
Not to engage or even enrage those that despise research... here is a paper from Goddard, in the sixties, that discusses, and provides, simple tunnel diode pulse circuits.
Garrahan(1957) Some variations of Tunnel Diode Pulse Generator Circuits (Goddard Space Flight Center)

Garrahan's? circuits are using an American Semiconductor (Incorporated) TD-9 tunnel diode (an interesting device, if you're interested in tunnel diodes... and really... who isn't!)
N.B.TD-9 is not 1n3716 ... so Spice (or other flavors) would be nice.



--
Roy Thistle


Michael W. Lynch
 

On Wed, Jun 9, 2021 at 04:30 PM, Roy Thistle wrote:


Garrahan(1957) Some variations of Tunnel Diode Pulse Generator Circuits
(Goddard Space Flight Center)
here is the link: https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/19670029206/downloads/19670029206.pdf
--
Michael Lynch
Dardanelle, AR


Michael W. Lynch
 

NASA TN D-3558 Give more details. For those who are intrigued by Tunnel Diodes and their uses. Find it on the NASA's STI Repository.

--
Michael Lynch
Dardanelle, AR


Roy Thistle
 

On Thu, Jun 10, 2021 at 05:41 AM, Michael W. Lynch wrote:


For those who are intrigued by Tunnel Diodes ... [ and by Tek] ...
Garrahan's paper (and the paper he refers to)... and a ton of other stuff about TDs... It's all on TekWiki. (Thank you TekWiki!)

--
Roy Thistle


Roy Thistle
 

Forgot... and the paper Garrahan refers to (Garrahan was a co-author) is ... Paull(1966) Low Power Nanosecond Pulse and Logic Circuits Using Tunnel Diodes (Goddard Space Flight Center)

--
Roy Thistle


Siggi
 

Some links for those who're tempted to look:
https://w140.com/tekwiki/wiki/Tunnel_diodes,
https://w140.com/nasa_paull_tunnel_diode_logic.pdf.

On Thu, Jun 10, 2021 at 2:00 PM Roy Thistle <roy.thistle@mail.utoronto.ca>
wrote:

Forgot... and the paper Garrahan refers to (Garrahan was a co-author) is
... Paull(1966) Low Power Nanosecond Pulse and Logic Circuits Using Tunnel
Diodes (Goddard Space Flight Center)

--
Roy Thistle






Gerald
 

Hi Everyone,

Thank you for the links and feedback. Such an interesting exotic device.

My quest started with the necessity to create a set of time marker pulses to correct errors during horizontal alignment on my 2465B.

The NASA paper is very good, combined with other feedback and W140.com site which completely slipped my mind, I have some good heads up info now.

Given this is the Tek scopes group, FYI.

I am still having alignment issues with my 2465B after my 7-8th attempt cycle I think, to align down to 5 and even 2ns. I picked up a TG501 and alignment from 10 5, 2 and 1ns isn't working well. I am experimenting with 74LVC1G, but still keen to look at using 2 good as new 1N3716 TD.

I need to get my 2465b right to experiment with TD, last evening for the 10th time going through cal 01 steps 7-34 and using the combination of the Tektronix and US army alignment papers for the 2465-7, I was able to get all horizontal settings within spec, actually better than spec with the exception of 5 and 2ns. The TG501 has poor output with excessive jitter.

I now feel a need to write a 24xx cal 01 doc with photos to help others guide their way through alignment for a unit s/n B052 and up, especially after A5 re-work.

Again thanks for the assistance with TD.

Regards

Gerald
VK3GJM


durechenew@...
 

"I now feel a need to write a 24xx cal 01 doc with photos to help others guide their way through alignment for a unit s/n B052 and up, especially after A5 re-work."
That would be great!
TT


Milan Trcka
 

Legendary Jim Williams of Linear Technology originally published a high-speed pulser using transistor operating in avalanche mode. There is a fair amount of info available. A good start is:
https://github.com/podonoghue/Jim_Williams_Pulse_Generator

Original:
A Seven-Nanosecond Comparator for Single Supply Operation, Linear Technology’s Application Note 72, May 1998
Figure B1. 250ps Rise/Fall Time Avalanche Pulse Generator

Also:
High Speed Amplifier Techniques, Linear Technology’s Application Note 47, August 1991


Dave Daniel
 

Application Note 47 is, in my opinion, mandatory reading for anyone interested in analog engineering. It is a madterpiece.

DaveD

On Jun 11, 2021, at 14:53, Milan Trcka <milan.v.trcka@gmail.com> wrote:

Legendary Jim Williams of Linear Technology originally published a high-speed pulser using transistor operating in avalanche mode. There is a fair amount of info available. A good start is:
https://github.com/podonoghue/Jim_Williams_Pulse_Generator

Original:
A Seven-Nanosecond Comparator for Single Supply Operation, Linear Technology’s Application Note 72, May 1998
Figure B1. 250ps Rise/Fall Time Avalanche Pulse Generator

Also:
High Speed Amplifier Techniques, Linear Technology’s Application Note 47, August 1991