Topics

Morning fun - working scope with no tubes?

Jamie Ostrowski
 

Do the audiophools value any 12AX7 or is it just the telefunken and bugle
boys?

Does it matter in an oscilloscope which brand of tube it is? (I don't
believe it does, but I could be wrong).

So why not replace the good telefunken tubes in our scopes with the GE's,
or what have you. It doesn't impact our oscilloscopes negatively, right?
Just no "chocolatey sine waves with a hint of nutmeg"?

Then eventually audio tube scavengers will realize a lot of Tektronix
scopes don't have their Telefunkens anymore and they will stop buying the
scopes and gutting them.

On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 5:00 PM Paul Amaranth <paul@...> wrote:

Well that was fun reading. Amazing how it doesn't say how the house
wiring installed by a hung over junior apprentice using the cheapest
available parts affects your sound quality.

There's probably a market for cryogenicly treated romex. Now I know
how to fund my retirement :-)

Paul


On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 05:31:11PM -0400, Glenn Little wrote:
When these fanatics pay $2500.00 for a 1.5 meter power cord, where is the
limit for tubes.

See:?? https://www.essentialsound.com/essence-power-cord.htm

Glenn

On 9/19/2019 4:28 PM, Roy Thistle wrote:
On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 07:13 PM, Jamie Ostrowski wrote:

I wish there was a way to find a way to keep the classic scopes out of
the
hands of the tube harvesters.
Hi All:
The only way I found to do it was to offer more ( some times way more )
than what the tube hounds were willing to pay. Some people here are
suggesting that solution.
In my experience, these tube harvesting guys are hard-bitten. And as
far as I can reason, irrationally motivated by flummery they believe, or
foist on their buyers.
Throwing money at the problem, will only be cause for asking for more
money to be thrown.
I surmise, that the copious number of individuals willing to claim or
believe, that brand X 12AX7 et. al. gives "a warm sweet chocolatey sound,
with a hint of nutmeg" won't be deterred by the rational economic principle
of diminishing returns. Quite the opposite: they will be thinking they are
paying for a premium quality of sound that no one else has. The emperor is
always willing to pay more for new clothes.
The only way, in my opinion, to rectify this situation is for common
sense, and rationality to prevail.
Roy



--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Glenn Little ARRL Technical Specialist QCWA LM 28417
Amateur Callsign: WB4UIV wb4uiv@... AMSAT LM 2178
QTH: Goose Creek, SC USA (EM92xx) USSVI LM NRA LM SBE ARRL TAPR
"It is not the class of license that the Amateur holds but the class
of the Amateur that holds the license"





!DSPAM:5d83f3bc200491649757610!
--
Paul Amaranth, GCIH | Manchester MI, USA
Aurora Group of Michigan, LLC | Security, Systems & Software
paul@... | Unix & Windows



Jamie Ostrowski
 

I don't think that formula for calculating the price of the oscilloscope
makes any sense. There isn't much demand for most of the tubes in that
oscilloscope. All harvesters are interested in is the audio tubes. The
remaining tubes in that oscilloscope will sit on ebay for years and years
and years. In other words, they're mostly worthless.

On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 2:44 PM Chuck Harris <cfharris@...> wrote:

I am certain there is a reason for every person that
says no, rather than yes, to a higher priced 535.

Just as I may say no to a higher priced antique car.

My point is, that if you don't own it, you get no say
in what the person that does own it does with it.

Complaining about a tube harvester, harvesting tubes
because he sees a higher price for the tubes than
anyone is willing to pay for the scope as a whole,
seems fatuous at best.

If one doesn't like that the scopes get their tubes
removed and sold, one should offer a higher price for
the scope with tubes than the audiofools pay for the
tubes, without the scope.

The economic model will change to disfavor tube
harvesting almost instantly.

If you want to know what a reasonable price is, do an
inventory of the tubes in the scope, and check the sold
prices for the same tubes on ebay. Then make your offer
for the 535 be more than the sum of those tube prices
on ebay.

-Chuck Harris

Harvey White wrote:
Perhaps we don't have the money?

How much is a used 535 worth?

Firstly as a scope.

Secondly as a collector's object to be restored.

Thirdly a source of oh so valuable tubes.

Fourth as a source of spare parts for a working unit.

What would you suggest as "reasonable" prices we might pay....?

Harvey


Glydeck
 

Glenn,

Thank you for the link to the power cord. OMG, I Am so laughing my ass off. Easily, my favorite line was “It makes digital sound like analog”. Keep in mind my day job is managing a team that does high resolution digital archiving of analog tapes for a major record label. I’ve seen every flavor of audio snake oil made.

As for older tube scopes, I purchased a tube harvested Tek 535A at a ham swap meet, and slowly re-tubed and restored it, all with the help of this group.

http://www.lydecker.org/Tektronix_535A.htm

I still use and enjoy it.

73’s George KD6NEW

On Sep 19, 2019, at 3:55 PM, Jamie Ostrowski <jamie.ostrowski@...> wrote:

I don't think that formula for calculating the price of the oscilloscope
makes any sense. There isn't much demand for most of the tubes in that
oscilloscope. All harvesters are interested in is the audio tubes. The
remaining tubes in that oscilloscope will sit on ebay for years and years
and years. In other words, they're mostly worthless.



On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 2:44 PM Chuck Harris <cfharris@...> wrote:

I am certain there is a reason for every person that
says no, rather than yes, to a higher priced 535.

Just as I may say no to a higher priced antique car.

My point is, that if you don't own it, you get no say
in what the person that does own it does with it.

Complaining about a tube harvester, harvesting tubes
because he sees a higher price for the tubes than
anyone is willing to pay for the scope as a whole,
seems fatuous at best.

If one doesn't like that the scopes get their tubes
removed and sold, one should offer a higher price for
the scope with tubes than the audiofools pay for the
tubes, without the scope.

The economic model will change to disfavor tube
harvesting almost instantly.

If you want to know what a reasonable price is, do an
inventory of the tubes in the scope, and check the sold
prices for the same tubes on ebay. Then make your offer
for the 535 be more than the sum of those tube prices
on ebay.

-Chuck Harris

Harvey White wrote:
Perhaps we don't have the money?

How much is a used 535 worth?

Firstly as a scope.

Secondly as a collector's object to be restored.

Thirdly a source of oh so valuable tubes.

Fourth as a source of spare parts for a working unit.

What would you suggest as "reasonable" prices we might pay....?

Harvey



Mlynch001
 

Idiots.

--
Michael Lynch
Dardanelle, AR

Glydeck
 

Then there is these guys:

https://youtu.be/XJJy6VJvSCk

Apologies for the OT link.

George

On Sep 19, 2019, at 4:59 PM, Mlynch001 <@mlynch001> wrote:

Idiots.

--
Michael Lynch
Dardanelle, AR


teamlarryohio
 

Chuck Harris
 

Ok, come up with your own solution.

The less valuable tubes that never sell on ebay don't
sell for much, and as such don't add much to the price
model.

I once calculated it out for a 585A, and came up with
$300 for ebay completed auction prices.

The 585A has a forest of 6DJ8's, which the audiofools
value quite highly, even though they are very common.

One $0.50 6AL5 doesn't skew the model enough to even
comment about.

-Chuck Harris

Jamie Ostrowski wrote:

I don't think that formula for calculating the price of the oscilloscope
makes any sense. There isn't much demand for most of the tubes in that
oscilloscope. All harvesters are interested in is the audio tubes. The
remaining tubes in that oscilloscope will sit on ebay for years and years
and years. In other words, they're mostly worthless.

Jamie Ostrowski
 

If I'm understanding your solution correctly, you're suggesting we all
raise the price on our oscilloscopes we sell to a price that is equal to
the cost of the individual components in the unit all together. We may as
well consider the transformers, because in audiophool circles they value
these, despite the problems with the epoxy-based transformers being a huge
problem. They tout them as "extremely reliable". I suppose because they're
big and heavy(?)

In the solution I proposed, you could just as well take out the Telefunken
tubes and sell them separately for a higher price, and replace them with GE
or RCA tubes, which are no lesser the tube in an oscilloscope. You would
increase your own profit, and create at the same time a trend in the market
- that the Tektronix oscilloscopes do not have the tubes favored by
audiophiles. If you have a concern your oscilloscope will go to a party
with ill-intent, you could even state that in the advertisement. They will
quit buying them for scrapping, you will increase your own profit, and more
old oscilloscopes will live to see tomorrow. There is a significant price
difference between some GE tubes and some Telefunkens, without any
performance cost to the scope as far as I'm aware of.

On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 7:59 PM Chuck Harris <cfharris@...> wrote:

Ok, come up with your own solution.

The less valuable tubes that never sell on ebay don't
sell for much, and as such don't add much to the price
model.

I once calculated it out for a 585A, and came up with
$300 for ebay completed auction prices.

The 585A has a forest of 6DJ8's, which the audiofools
value quite highly, even though they are very common.

One $0.50 6AL5 doesn't skew the model enough to even
comment about.

-Chuck Harris

Jamie Ostrowski wrote:
I don't think that formula for calculating the price of the oscilloscope
makes any sense. There isn't much demand for most of the tubes in that
oscilloscope. All harvesters are interested in is the audio tubes. The
remaining tubes in that oscilloscope will sit on ebay for years and years
and years. In other words, they're mostly worthless.



Chuck Harris
 

My suggestion is when you see a tube harvester
that has separated the scope from the tubes, make
him an offer that is high enough to encourage him
to sell the scope to you with tubes... assuming
you really want the scope.

We all like bargains, but a $50 535 doesn't match
the reality of the value of the parts anymore.

If you think it does, then you are demonstrably
mistaken, and really have no cause to complain.

-Chuck Harris

Jamie Ostrowski wrote:

If I'm understanding your solution correctly, you're suggesting we all
raise the price on our oscilloscopes we sell to a price that is equal to
the cost of the individual components in the unit all together. We may as
well consider the transformers, because in audiophool circles they value
these, despite the problems with the epoxy-based transformers being a huge
problem. They tout them as "extremely reliable". I suppose because they're
big and heavy(?)

In the solution I proposed, you could just as well take out the Telefunken
tubes and sell them separately for a higher price, and replace them with GE
or RCA tubes, which are no lesser the tube in an oscilloscope. You would
increase your own profit, and create at the same time a trend in the market
- that the Tektronix oscilloscopes do not have the tubes favored by
audiophiles. If you have a concern your oscilloscope will go to a party
with ill-intent, you could even state that in the advertisement. They will
quit buying them for scrapping, you will increase your own profit, and more
old oscilloscopes will live to see tomorrow. There is a significant price
difference between some GE tubes and some Telefunkens, without any
performance cost to the scope as far as I'm aware of.











On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 7:59 PM Chuck Harris <cfharris@...> wrote:

Ok, come up with your own solution.

The less valuable tubes that never sell on ebay don't
sell for much, and as such don't add much to the price
model.

I once calculated it out for a 585A, and came up with
$300 for ebay completed auction prices.

The 585A has a forest of 6DJ8's, which the audiofools
value quite highly, even though they are very common.

One $0.50 6AL5 doesn't skew the model enough to even
comment about.

-Chuck Harris

Jamie Ostrowski wrote:
I don't think that formula for calculating the price of the oscilloscope
makes any sense. There isn't much demand for most of the tubes in that
oscilloscope. All harvesters are interested in is the audio tubes. The
remaining tubes in that oscilloscope will sit on ebay for years and years
and years. In other words, they're mostly worthless.





Jamie Ostrowski
 

Yeah this has been an interesting conversation. It has given me some new
perspectives on things. I think that is a very fair suggestion. I'd love to
see more cooperation between the audiophools and scope guys. I wouldn't
mind buying a cheap scope without tubes and loading it myself. I just hate
to see them tossed out.

For the record, I don't expect to buy any Tek scope for $50, although from
time to time they appear. A few months ago I purchased a 531A for $75 with
a cart. Granted I drove a couple hundred miles to pick it up but I enjoyed
the road trip!

The 500 series scopes selling on ebay, fb, et al, for $200+ dollars sit
there for months before they vanish with "best offer accepted" or get
re-listed over and over again. This does seem to be growing trend. Based on
what I have seen, a lot of the scopes seem to be sold by people who don't
know what an oscilloscope is, but they inherited it, and they are using the
ebay listed prices as a baseline.

On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 10:19 PM Chuck Harris <cfharris@...> wrote:

My suggestion is when you see a tube harvester
that has separated the scope from the tubes, make
him an offer that is high enough to encourage him
to sell the scope to you with tubes... assuming
you really want the scope.

We all like bargains, but a $50 535 doesn't match
the reality of the value of the parts anymore.

If you think it does, then you are demonstrably
mistaken, and really have no cause to complain.

-Chuck Harris

Jamie Ostrowski wrote:
If I'm understanding your solution correctly, you're suggesting we all
raise the price on our oscilloscopes we sell to a price that is equal to
the cost of the individual components in the unit all together. We may as
well consider the transformers, because in audiophool circles they value
these, despite the problems with the epoxy-based transformers being a
huge
problem. They tout them as "extremely reliable". I suppose because
they're
big and heavy(?)

In the solution I proposed, you could just as well take out the
Telefunken
tubes and sell them separately for a higher price, and replace them with
GE
or RCA tubes, which are no lesser the tube in an oscilloscope. You would
increase your own profit, and create at the same time a trend in the
market
- that the Tektronix oscilloscopes do not have the tubes favored by
audiophiles. If you have a concern your oscilloscope will go to a party
with ill-intent, you could even state that in the advertisement. They
will
quit buying them for scrapping, you will increase your own profit, and
more
old oscilloscopes will live to see tomorrow. There is a significant price
difference between some GE tubes and some Telefunkens, without any
performance cost to the scope as far as I'm aware of.











On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 7:59 PM Chuck Harris <cfharris@...> wrote:

Ok, come up with your own solution.

The less valuable tubes that never sell on ebay don't
sell for much, and as such don't add much to the price
model.

I once calculated it out for a 585A, and came up with
$300 for ebay completed auction prices.

The 585A has a forest of 6DJ8's, which the audiofools
value quite highly, even though they are very common.

One $0.50 6AL5 doesn't skew the model enough to even
comment about.

-Chuck Harris

Jamie Ostrowski wrote:
I don't think that formula for calculating the price of the
oscilloscope
makes any sense. There isn't much demand for most of the tubes in that
oscilloscope. All harvesters are interested in is the audio tubes. The
remaining tubes in that oscilloscope will sit on ebay for years and
years
and years. In other words, they're mostly worthless.







Jamie Ostrowski
 

I also picked up this 546 for $35 a couple of months ago...complete, but it
is going to need some work. That's ok! What fun is a puzzle that's already
assembled? :-)

[image: image.png]

On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 10:41 PM Jamie Ostrowski via Groups.Io
<jamie.ostrowski=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:

Yeah this has been an interesting conversation. It has given me some new
perspectives on things. I think that is a very fair suggestion. I'd love to
see more cooperation between the audiophools and scope guys. I wouldn't
mind buying a cheap scope without tubes and loading it myself. I just hate
to see them tossed out.

For the record, I don't expect to buy any Tek scope for $50, although from
time to time they appear. A few months ago I purchased a 531A for $75 with
a cart. Granted I drove a couple hundred miles to pick it up but I enjoyed
the road trip!

The 500 series scopes selling on ebay, fb, et al, for $200+ dollars sit
there for months before they vanish with "best offer accepted" or get
re-listed over and over again. This does seem to be growing trend. Based on
what I have seen, a lot of the scopes seem to be sold by people who don't
know what an oscilloscope is, but they inherited it, and they are using the
ebay listed prices as a baseline.


On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 10:19 PM Chuck Harris <cfharris@...> wrote:

My suggestion is when you see a tube harvester
that has separated the scope from the tubes, make
him an offer that is high enough to encourage him
to sell the scope to you with tubes... assuming
you really want the scope.

We all like bargains, but a $50 535 doesn't match
the reality of the value of the parts anymore.

If you think it does, then you are demonstrably
mistaken, and really have no cause to complain.

-Chuck Harris

Jamie Ostrowski wrote:
If I'm understanding your solution correctly, you're suggesting we all
raise the price on our oscilloscopes we sell to a price that is equal
to
the cost of the individual components in the unit all together. We may
as
well consider the transformers, because in audiophool circles they
value
these, despite the problems with the epoxy-based transformers being a
huge
problem. They tout them as "extremely reliable". I suppose because
they're
big and heavy(?)

In the solution I proposed, you could just as well take out the
Telefunken
tubes and sell them separately for a higher price, and replace them
with
GE
or RCA tubes, which are no lesser the tube in an oscilloscope. You
would
increase your own profit, and create at the same time a trend in the
market
- that the Tektronix oscilloscopes do not have the tubes favored by
audiophiles. If you have a concern your oscilloscope will go to a party
with ill-intent, you could even state that in the advertisement. They
will
quit buying them for scrapping, you will increase your own profit, and
more
old oscilloscopes will live to see tomorrow. There is a significant
price
difference between some GE tubes and some Telefunkens, without any
performance cost to the scope as far as I'm aware of.











On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 7:59 PM Chuck Harris <cfharris@...>
wrote:

Ok, come up with your own solution.

The less valuable tubes that never sell on ebay don't
sell for much, and as such don't add much to the price
model.

I once calculated it out for a 585A, and came up with
$300 for ebay completed auction prices.

The 585A has a forest of 6DJ8's, which the audiofools
value quite highly, even though they are very common.

One $0.50 6AL5 doesn't skew the model enough to even
comment about.

-Chuck Harris

Jamie Ostrowski wrote:
I don't think that formula for calculating the price of the
oscilloscope
makes any sense. There isn't much demand for most of the tubes in
that
oscilloscope. All harvesters are interested in is the audio tubes.
The
remaining tubes in that oscilloscope will sit on ebay for years and
years
and years. In other words, they're mostly worthless.









Jamie Ostrowski
 

Well, it looks like the mailman may have stripped my image:
http://www.packetry.com/546.png

If I was less naive and watching my wife's spending, I would not have to be
so frugal, but circumstances dictate my financial stretch for the time
being. Lessons learned.

On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 11:03 PM Jamie Ostrowski via Groups.Io
<jamie.ostrowski=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:

I also picked up this 546 for $35 a couple of months ago...complete, but it
is going to need some work. That's ok! What fun is a puzzle that's already
assembled? :-)

[image: image.png]

On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 10:41 PM Jamie Ostrowski via Groups.Io
<jamie.ostrowski=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:

Yeah this has been an interesting conversation. It has given me some new
perspectives on things. I think that is a very fair suggestion. I'd love
to
see more cooperation between the audiophools and scope guys. I wouldn't
mind buying a cheap scope without tubes and loading it myself. I just
hate
to see them tossed out.

For the record, I don't expect to buy any Tek scope for $50, although
from
time to time they appear. A few months ago I purchased a 531A for $75
with
a cart. Granted I drove a couple hundred miles to pick it up but I
enjoyed
the road trip!

The 500 series scopes selling on ebay, fb, et al, for $200+ dollars sit
there for months before they vanish with "best offer accepted" or get
re-listed over and over again. This does seem to be growing trend. Based
on
what I have seen, a lot of the scopes seem to be sold by people who don't
know what an oscilloscope is, but they inherited it, and they are using
the
ebay listed prices as a baseline.


On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 10:19 PM Chuck Harris <cfharris@...>
wrote:

My suggestion is when you see a tube harvester
that has separated the scope from the tubes, make
him an offer that is high enough to encourage him
to sell the scope to you with tubes... assuming
you really want the scope.

We all like bargains, but a $50 535 doesn't match
the reality of the value of the parts anymore.

If you think it does, then you are demonstrably
mistaken, and really have no cause to complain.

-Chuck Harris

Jamie Ostrowski wrote:
If I'm understanding your solution correctly, you're suggesting we
all
raise the price on our oscilloscopes we sell to a price that is equal
to
the cost of the individual components in the unit all together. We
may
as
well consider the transformers, because in audiophool circles they
value
these, despite the problems with the epoxy-based transformers being a
huge
problem. They tout them as "extremely reliable". I suppose because
they're
big and heavy(?)

In the solution I proposed, you could just as well take out the
Telefunken
tubes and sell them separately for a higher price, and replace them
with
GE
or RCA tubes, which are no lesser the tube in an oscilloscope. You
would
increase your own profit, and create at the same time a trend in the
market
- that the Tektronix oscilloscopes do not have the tubes favored by
audiophiles. If you have a concern your oscilloscope will go to a
party
with ill-intent, you could even state that in the advertisement. They
will
quit buying them for scrapping, you will increase your own profit,
and
more
old oscilloscopes will live to see tomorrow. There is a significant
price
difference between some GE tubes and some Telefunkens, without any
performance cost to the scope as far as I'm aware of.











On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 7:59 PM Chuck Harris <cfharris@...>
wrote:

Ok, come up with your own solution.

The less valuable tubes that never sell on ebay don't
sell for much, and as such don't add much to the price
model.

I once calculated it out for a 585A, and came up with
$300 for ebay completed auction prices.

The 585A has a forest of 6DJ8's, which the audiofools
value quite highly, even though they are very common.

One $0.50 6AL5 doesn't skew the model enough to even
comment about.

-Chuck Harris

Jamie Ostrowski wrote:
I don't think that formula for calculating the price of the
oscilloscope
makes any sense. There isn't much demand for most of the tubes in
that
oscilloscope. All harvesters are interested in is the audio tubes.
The
remaining tubes in that oscilloscope will sit on ebay for years and
years
and years. In other words, they're mostly worthless.











ykochcal
 

Now for real audio you have to go all the way

" My circuit breakers have been cryo'ed and yes you can hear the
difference."
https://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/vt.mpl?f=tweaks&m=199820&VT=T


.....


Now for audio, which is best to buy, hydro, coal, Natural gas, solar or
nuclear electricity?

Now seriously:

I have some 500 scopes that were scrapped for tubes plus misc, have some
that I paid $20-$30 for (in California) just so they would not be scrapped,
some I don't have that were trashed before I made that offer.

You can't save every scope.

And I know there is no truth to it but I presume a lot of us have too "many"
already.
Or from an outsiders perspective is that a similar but different sort of
obsession as cryo'ed audio.

Now if I ran across a pair of those gold plated horn boy tubes with just the
right getter and plates, I would possibly be tempted pull them and replace
it with a good old tube or one of the new manufactured Eastern tubes.

Has anyone tried new "eastern" tubes in a scope?

If scopes in your area are more then $20 -30 you could look at buying,
pulling the "good audio tubes" selling and replacing them with the scope
good/audio bad tubes.

Could you come out ahead?
If so it would solve the problem.
If not, unhappy scope people need to fork over more cash.

So far I have other stuff I have always done first.

John
P.S. Thanks all for some entertainment tonight

Jamie Ostrowski
 

Well look on ebay for 12AX7 and sort by price, lowest first. There's a lot
of GE tubes on there for a lot less than the Amperex or Telefunken tubes.

Have a forest of them in your old scope? Sell them on ebay and put in a set
of GE's, RCA's, or Sylvanias. Pocket the difference. Your scope will be
just as happy, audiophools will have a new flood of their precious tubes on
ebay, and everyone will be happy.

On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 11:28 PM ykochcal <Kochcal@...> wrote:


Now for real audio you have to go all the way

" My circuit breakers have been cryo'ed and yes you can hear the
difference."
https://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/vt.mpl?f=tweaks&m=199820&VT=T


.....


Now for audio, which is best to buy, hydro, coal, Natural gas, solar or
nuclear electricity?

Now seriously:

I have some 500 scopes that were scrapped for tubes plus misc, have some
that I paid $20-$30 for (in California) just so they would not be scrapped,
some I don't have that were trashed before I made that offer.

You can't save every scope.

And I know there is no truth to it but I presume a lot of us have too
"many"
already.
Or from an outsiders perspective is that a similar but different sort of
obsession as cryo'ed audio.

Now if I ran across a pair of those gold plated horn boy tubes with just
the
right getter and plates, I would possibly be tempted pull them and replace
it with a good old tube or one of the new manufactured Eastern tubes.

Has anyone tried new "eastern" tubes in a scope?

If scopes in your area are more then $20 -30 you could look at buying,
pulling the "good audio tubes" selling and replacing them with the scope
good/audio bad tubes.

Could you come out ahead?
If so it would solve the problem.
If not, unhappy scope people need to fork over more cash.

So far I have other stuff I have always done first.

John
P.S. Thanks all for some entertainment tonight





Dave Seiter
 

I passed on a 5xx scope at an estate sale back in the spring for $10;  it had been offered for $150 two days earlier.  It was an X/Y, so I wasn't really interested.  In retrospect, for the price I should have grabbed it.  
-Dave

On Thursday, September 19, 2019, 08:41:17 PM PDT, Jamie Ostrowski <jamie.ostrowski@...> wrote:

Yeah this has been an interesting conversation. It has given me some new
perspectives on things. I think that is a very fair suggestion. I'd love to
see more cooperation between the audiophools and scope guys. I wouldn't
mind buying a cheap scope without tubes and loading it myself. I just hate
to see them tossed out.

For the record, I don't expect to buy any Tek scope for $50, although from
time to time they appear. A few months ago I purchased a 531A for $75 with
a cart. Granted I drove a couple hundred miles to pick it up but I enjoyed
the road trip!

The 500 series scopes selling on ebay, fb, et al, for $200+ dollars sit
there for months before they vanish with "best offer accepted" or get
re-listed over and over again. This does seem to be growing trend. Based on
what I have seen, a lot of the scopes seem to be sold by people who don't
know what an oscilloscope is, but they inherited it, and they are using the
ebay listed prices as a baseline.


On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 10:19 PM Chuck Harris <cfharris@...> wrote:

My suggestion is when you see a tube harvester
that has separated the scope from the tubes, make
him an offer that is high enough to encourage him
to sell the scope to you with tubes... assuming
you really want the scope.

We all like bargains, but a $50 535 doesn't match
the reality of the value of the parts anymore.

If you think it does, then you are demonstrably
mistaken, and really have no cause to complain.

-Chuck Harris

Jamie Ostrowski wrote:
If I'm understanding your solution correctly, you're suggesting we all
raise the price on our oscilloscopes we sell to a price that is equal to
the cost of the individual components in the unit all together. We may as
well consider the transformers, because in audiophool circles they value
these, despite the problems with the epoxy-based transformers being a
huge
problem. They tout them as "extremely reliable". I suppose because
they're
big and heavy(?)

In the solution I proposed, you could just as well take out the
Telefunken
tubes and sell them separately for a higher price, and replace them with
GE
or RCA tubes, which are no lesser the tube in an oscilloscope. You would
increase your own profit, and create at the same time a trend in the
market
- that the Tektronix oscilloscopes do not have the tubes favored by
audiophiles. If you have a concern your oscilloscope will go to a party
with ill-intent, you could even state that in the advertisement. They
will
quit buying them for scrapping, you will increase your own profit, and
more
old oscilloscopes will live to see tomorrow. There is a significant price
difference between some GE tubes and some Telefunkens, without any
performance cost to the scope as far as I'm aware of.











On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 7:59 PM Chuck Harris <cfharris@...> wrote:

Ok, come up with your own solution.

The less valuable tubes that never sell on ebay don't
sell for much, and as such don't add much to the price
model.

I once calculated it out for a 585A, and came up with
$300 for ebay completed auction prices.

The 585A has a forest of 6DJ8's, which the audiofools
value quite highly, even though they are very common.

One $0.50 6AL5 doesn't skew the model enough to even
comment about.

-Chuck Harris

Jamie Ostrowski wrote:
I don't think that formula for calculating the price of the
oscilloscope
makes any sense. There isn't much demand for most of the tubes in that
oscilloscope. All harvesters are interested in is the audio tubes. The
remaining tubes in that oscilloscope will sit on ebay for years and
years
and years. In other words, they're mostly worthless.







Alberto I2PHD
 

The mother of idiots is always pregnant...

Harvey White
 

I'm not sure that this group is a significant source of tube type anything (let alone oscilloscopes) to the audio market.

If you're going to do such a thing, then at least keep the matched and selected pairs where they were.

Harvey

On 9/19/2019 9:27 PM, Jamie Ostrowski wrote:
If I'm understanding your solution correctly, you're suggesting we all
raise the price on our oscilloscopes we sell to a price that is equal to
the cost of the individual components in the unit all together. We may as
well consider the transformers, because in audiophool circles they value
these, despite the problems with the epoxy-based transformers being a huge
problem. They tout them as "extremely reliable". I suppose because they're
big and heavy(?)

In the solution I proposed, you could just as well take out the Telefunken
tubes and sell them separately for a higher price, and replace them with GE
or RCA tubes, which are no lesser the tube in an oscilloscope. You would
increase your own profit, and create at the same time a trend in the market
- that the Tektronix oscilloscopes do not have the tubes favored by
audiophiles. If you have a concern your oscilloscope will go to a party
with ill-intent, you could even state that in the advertisement. They will
quit buying them for scrapping, you will increase your own profit, and more
old oscilloscopes will live to see tomorrow. There is a significant price
difference between some GE tubes and some Telefunkens, without any
performance cost to the scope as far as I'm aware of.











On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 7:59 PM Chuck Harris <cfharris@...> wrote:

Ok, come up with your own solution.

The less valuable tubes that never sell on ebay don't
sell for much, and as such don't add much to the price
model.

I once calculated it out for a 585A, and came up with
$300 for ebay completed auction prices.

The 585A has a forest of 6DJ8's, which the audiofools
value quite highly, even though they are very common.

One $0.50 6AL5 doesn't skew the model enough to even
comment about.

-Chuck Harris

Jamie Ostrowski wrote:
I don't think that formula for calculating the price of the oscilloscope
makes any sense. There isn't much demand for most of the tubes in that
oscilloscope. All harvesters are interested in is the audio tubes. The
remaining tubes in that oscilloscope will sit on ebay for years and years
and years. In other words, they're mostly worthless.



Mlynch001
 

I don’t have a dog in the hunt here, as I buying and fixing later model solid state TEK scopes and other gear. It seems to me that a scope that will function correctly at the frequencies that we request of them must be just as demanding of the tubes? If all of this audiophool nonsense is true, none of our scopes is worth a darn. I don’t have a $2500 power cord, $150 receptacle, cryogenic treated breakers or wire. How does my scope function and deliver usable results? Crap in . . . Crap out! Just thinking out loud.

--
Michael Lynch
Dardanelle, AR

Jamie Ostrowski
 

Yes I think that is a good question.

I asked a similar question about a month ago to this group if I needed to
be concerned about whether the say, 12AX7 with the special D getter, black
plate, et al 12AX7's being sold on ebay were equal to a standard GE 12AX7
in one of my oscilloscopes, and the answer I got from some of the brightest
minds here was that there was no difference. I could use any 12AX7.
(Granted I would stay away from the Chinese stuff).

We could probably be sure of the answer to that if we knew what brand of
tubes were used in these scopes when they were manufactured. If the answer
was GE, RCA, Sylvania tubes, then we would know right away that there could
be no negative impact.

But most of these scopes have had their tubes replaced throughout the
years. I don't know what tube brands were originally installed.

On Fri, Sep 20, 2019 at 12:43 PM Mlynch001 <@mlynch001> wrote:

I don’t have a dog in the hunt here, as I buying and fixing later model
solid state TEK scopes and other gear. It seems to me that a scope that
will function correctly at the frequencies that we request of them must be
just as demanding of the tubes? If all of this audiophool nonsense is
true, none of our scopes is worth a darn. I don’t have a $2500 power
cord, $150 receptacle, cryogenic treated breakers or wire. How does my
scope function and deliver usable results? Crap in . . . Crap out! Just
thinking out loud.

--
Michael Lynch
Dardanelle, AR



Chuck Harris
 

That is something that few people understand.

Tektronix was trying to get state of the art performance
out of fairly common vacuum tubes..... but with as long
a vacuum tube life as they could reasonably manage. There
were a lot of tubes in these scopes. If reliability was
compromised, probability is you would be replacing a tube
every few months... sort of like the old color TV's...

This required them to use configurations that had cathode
bias to very high negative voltages, to keep the currents
effectively constant, and to use each stage with fairly low
gain, making the gain up over multiple stages. Linearity
was very important to tektronix engineers.

By the time a tektronix scope tube is starting to show a
noticeable reduction in performance in a tektronix scope,
it is dead, dead, dead... for the more basic circuits used
in tube testers, and audio amplifiers. And has been for
quite a while.

This is why tektronix stated in most all of their manuals
that the best tester for the tubes in your scope, was the
scope itself. They didn't believe very highly in tube
testers.

So, many of those spiffy bugle-boy tubes, that work just fine
in a scope, have had just about every last drop of goodness
extracted from them... And, will test bad in your fancy
Hickok tester.

Just a thought.

-Chuck Harris

Mlynch001 wrote:

I don’t have a dog in the hunt here, as I buying and fixing later model solid state TEK scopes and other gear. It seems to me that a scope that will function correctly at the frequencies that we request of them must be just as demanding of the tubes? If all of this audiophool nonsense is true, none of our scopes is worth a darn. I don’t have a $2500 power cord, $150 receptacle, cryogenic treated breakers or wire. How does my scope function and deliver usable results? Crap in . . . Crap out! Just thinking out loud.