Topics

Encouraging beginners: What are we accomplishing?


Roy Thistle
 

Hi all TekScopers:
Reading through a long thread, recently posted, caused me to wonder.. just what are TekScopers accomplishing with threads like this... and why are we encouraging someone who is "... new to electronics..." to dig into a 475?... one of the most complex, and compact, analog instruments ever designed.
I suppose.. in consideration... Michael discouraged the use of a Mr. Carlson super Weller-kluge special, on the 475's pcb(s)... but, ya know... somewhere the thread... the 475 owner hints he paid 20.00 for 475?, and he's also got a nonworking? PM3218 too.
So why didn't someone just recommend/... right off the bat... to take the 475 to someone who knows what they are doing... drop another 100.00 on it... and then he'd have one of the best scopes ever made.
Or alternatively... and better... just start in on the PM3218...itself a very fine instrument, with a double insulated power supply... and way overkill, for a beginner.
Look, I'm not unsympathetic... it's just that...too often.. after parting with some scarce cash... or finding some Tek picked apart in a basement somewhere, where its been languishing for a generation...I've witnessed the havoc wreaked by someone trying to "fix" them.
If you want to call me a dumb ass... for thinking this way... well fine... just PM me to do it. I can't promise I'll reply to that... but, I'll read your message.
Best regards and wishes.
Roy


John Crighton
 

Hello Roy,

I am really surprised at you of all people sounding like a wet blanket.

The owner of this tekscope group told you in no uncertain terms if you
want to talk about ESR Meters to go and form your own group. Which
to your credit you did just that. I also did not like the way that the owner
of this group, Dennis Tillman, jumped on Mr Chuck Harris for describing
how to use an oscilloscope with a function generator to check capacitors
for value and ESR. Shutting someone up for describing how to use an
oscilloscope on an oscilloscope group is to me just plain crazy.
Those are rules that you have to obey, like them or not.

Roy, if you are not enjoying reading about the repair of the 475 scope
by a beginner then do not read the thread. It is that simple!

I think it is marvellous that so many people on this group are willing
to help an individul fix his 475 scope. What a great thing to do,
while we are in corona virus lock down.
My fellow countryman Graham VK1GVC, down in Canberra is
doing a great job helping Bruce and so so are all the othere people.
The side benefit for me and no doubt others on this group is that
Bruce is asking basic questions as a beginner that other people
on this group might not dare to ask for fear of looking foolish.

Keep asking questions Bruce. I want you to fix this scope.

Regards,
John Crighton
Sydney

----- Original Message -----
From: "Roy Thistle" <roy.thistle@...>
To: <TekScopes@groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2020 1:51 PM
Subject: [TekScopes] Encouraging beginners: What are we accomplishing?


Hi all TekScopers:
Reading through a long thread, recently posted, caused me to wonder.. just what are TekScopers accomplishing with threads like this... and why are we encouraging someone who is "... new to electronics..." to dig into a 475?... one of the most complex, and compact, analog instruments ever designed.
I suppose.. in consideration... Michael discouraged the use of a Mr. Carlson super Weller-kluge special, on the 475's pcb(s)... but, ya know... somewhere the thread... the 475 owner hints he paid 20.00 for 475?, and he's also got a nonworking? PM3218 too.
So why didn't someone just recommend/... right off the bat... to take the 475 to someone who knows what they are doing... drop another 100.00 on it... and then he'd have one of the best scopes ever made.
Or alternatively... and better... just start in on the PM3218...itself a very fine instrument, with a double insulated power supply... and way overkill, for a beginner.
Look, I'm not unsympathetic... it's just that...too often.. after parting with some scarce cash... or finding some Tek picked apart in a basement somewhere, where its been languishing for a generation...I've witnessed the havoc wreaked by someone trying to "fix" them.
If you want to call me a dumb ass... for thinking this way... well fine... just PM me to do it. I can't promise I'll reply to that... but, I'll read your message.
Best regards and wishes.
Roy




---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com


Jim Ford
 

I agree with you, John. At first I was dismayed at Bruce's many posts, but then I thought, hey, I have no experience with the 475 and no interest in one, so I'll just delete the darn posts! Simple as that!

Bruce, knock yourself out! Post as much as you need to to get the information you need to fix your scope. Good luck!

Jim Ford

------ Original Message ------
From: "John Crighton" <john.crighton@...>
To: TekScopes@groups.io
Sent: 5/26/2020 10:04:29 PM
Subject: Re: [TekScopes] Encouraging beginners: What are we accomplishing?

Hello Roy,

I am really surprised at you of all people sounding like a wet blanket.

The owner of this tekscope group told you in no uncertain terms if you
want to talk about ESR Meters to go and form your own group. Which
to your credit you did just that. I also did not like the way that the owner
of this group, Dennis Tillman, jumped on Mr Chuck Harris for describing
how to use an oscilloscope with a function generator to check capacitors
for value and ESR. Shutting someone up for describing how to use an
oscilloscope on an oscilloscope group is to me just plain crazy.
Those are rules that you have to obey, like them or not.

Roy, if you are not enjoying reading about the repair of the 475 scope
by a beginner then do not read the thread. It is that simple!

I think it is marvellous that so many people on this group are willing
to help an individul fix his 475 scope. What a great thing to do,
while we are in corona virus lock down.
My fellow countryman Graham VK1GVC, down in Canberra is
doing a great job helping Bruce and so so are all the othere people.
The side benefit for me and no doubt others on this group is that
Bruce is asking basic questions as a beginner that other people
on this group might not dare to ask for fear of looking foolish.

Keep asking questions Bruce. I want you to fix this scope.

Regards,
John Crighton
Sydney


----- Original Message ----- From: "Roy Thistle" <roy.thistle@...>
To: <TekScopes@groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2020 1:51 PM
Subject: [TekScopes] Encouraging beginners: What are we accomplishing?


Hi all TekScopers:
Reading through a long thread, recently posted, caused me to wonder.. just what are TekScopers accomplishing with threads like this... and why are we encouraging someone who is "... new to electronics..." to dig into a 475?... one of the most complex, and compact, analog instruments ever designed.
I suppose.. in consideration... Michael discouraged the use of a Mr. Carlson super Weller-kluge special, on the 475's pcb(s)... but, ya know... somewhere the thread... the 475 owner hints he paid 20.00 for 475?, and he's also got a nonworking? PM3218 too.
So why didn't someone just recommend/... right off the bat... to take the 475 to someone who knows what they are doing... drop another 100.00 on it... and then he'd have one of the best scopes ever made.
Or alternatively... and better... just start in on the PM3218...itself a very fine instrument, with a double insulated power supply... and way overkill, for a beginner.
Look, I'm not unsympathetic... it's just that...too often.. after parting with some scarce cash... or finding some Tek picked apart in a basement somewhere, where its been languishing for a generation...I've witnessed the havoc wreaked by someone trying to "fix" them.
If you want to call me a dumb ass... for thinking this way... well fine... just PM me to do it. I can't promise I'll reply to that... but, I'll read your message.
Best regards and wishes.
Roy




---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com




Roy Thistle
 

On Tue, May 26, 2020 at 10:05 PM, John Crighton wrote:


Roy, if you are not enjoying reading about the repair of the 475 scope
by a beginner then do not read the thread.
Hi John:
Yes!... if you do not like the topic... then don't read it. What then, I ask, is the logical consequence of that claim?
And, just for the record... I think all this ESR stuff is 95% foolishness... I don't even have one Topic about ESR meters on TekScopes... if one post even.
And, Dennis didn't tell me to do anything about ESR meters. That's something you are making up.
About Chuck... I don't know: in my estimation Chuck can look after himself... pretty good really.
Yes we can celebrate the marvelous-ness of generosity, that of national solidarity in the time of crisis, and of wonderful serendipity, among other things; but, I broached none of that in my post... none of it.
And, a particularly incoherent response, relative to the questions that I did raise, does nothing to address them... nor shows those questions were directed towards anyone in particular, or about anyone in particular. They are not.
What I posted was my opinion, based on my experience, and I stand by it.
Best regards and wishes.
All the best.
Roy.


Brendan
 

On Tue, May 26, 2020 at 08:51 PM, Roy Thistle wrote:


Hi all TekScopers:
Reading through a long thread, recently posted, caused me to wonder.. just
what are TekScopers accomplishing with threads like this... and why are we
encouraging someone who is "... new to electronics..." to dig into a 475?...
one of the most complex, and compact, analog instruments ever designed.
I suppose.. in consideration... Michael discouraged the use of a Mr. Carlson
super Weller-kluge special, on the 475's pcb(s)... but, ya know... somewhere
the thread... the 475 owner hints he paid 20.00 for 475?, and he's also got a
nonworking? PM3218 too.
So why didn't someone just recommend/... right off the bat... to take the 475
to someone who knows what they are doing... drop another 100.00 on it... and
then he'd have one of the best scopes ever made.
Or alternatively... and better... just start in on the PM3218...itself a very
fine instrument, with a double insulated power supply... and way overkill, for
a beginner.
Look, I'm not unsympathetic... it's just that...too often.. after parting with
some scarce cash... or finding some Tek picked apart in a basement somewhere,
where its been languishing for a generation...I've witnessed the havoc wreaked
by someone trying to "fix" them.
If you want to call me a dumb ass... for thinking this way... well fine...
just PM me to do it. I can't promise I'll reply to that... but, I'll read your
message.
Best regards and wishes.
Roy
Hi Roy and hello to the rest of the Tek crew. I guess it really depends on a bunch of variables. I myself would buy scopes that were known not to function for the challenge of "fixing" them. And you know what? I fixed a bunch of scopes. Reading they theory of operation over and over looking at schematics for hours on end, posting here and asking stupid questions. If I would have paid someone to repair my 7633 I wouldn't have been able to afford a 7ct1n to use with it. Now I have tunnel diode pulsers, attenuators , normalizers. Am I an electrical engineer now? Not even close. I'm probably one of the least educated persons here but I have my own collection of pretty awesome Tek scopes. There have been some pads slid off, some traces lifted and a few times that I have failed but there is a great feeling when you power on that scope with no trace and it lights up.

Brendan


Eric
 

Roy

I have to add to this one. As 3 years ago I did JUST that. I had a soldering Iron and a power supply on the bench. And started to dive deeper in to electronics. I made the mistake of taking on a 485 after some you tube videos. Now I do not regret the decision one bit. I call it a mistake because my personal goal was to repair and completely calibrate the 485 so I could use it on my bench. So I jumped down the rabbit hole with both feet. What happened I ended up with 2 completely rebuilt 485’s and one parts unit. It seems the 485 I started on was a real mess from the previous “tech” that worked on it. But no magic smoke and no popping of anything unobtanium. So I would have to say go for it but go REALLY slow.

Eric

On 5/27/2020 3:10 AM, Roy Thistle wrote:
On Tue, May 26, 2020 at 10:05 PM, John Crighton wrote:

Roy, if you are not enjoying reading about the repair of the 475 scope
by a beginner then do not read the thread.
Hi John:
Yes!... if you do not like the topic... then don't read it. What then, I ask, is the logical consequence of that claim?
And, just for the record... I think all this ESR stuff is 95% foolishness... I don't even have one Topic about ESR meters on TekScopes... if one post even.
And, Dennis didn't tell me to do anything about ESR meters. That's something you are making up.
About Chuck... I don't know: in my estimation Chuck can look after himself... pretty good really.
Yes we can celebrate the marvelous-ness of generosity, that of national solidarity in the time of crisis, and of wonderful serendipity, among other things; but, I broached none of that in my post... none of it.
And, a particularly incoherent response, relative to the questions that I did raise, does nothing to address them... nor shows those questions were directed towards anyone in particular, or about anyone in particular. They are not.
What I posted was my opinion, based on my experience, and I stand by it.
Best regards and wishes.
All the best.
Roy.



LarryS <vision1@...>
 

In answer to your question, ANY time you bring in fresh blood, it's better for everyone. Every time. No exceptions. A rising tide floats all boats.

Right now, Harley Davidson is facing 'massive restructuring'. Why? Their rider base is literally dying off.
I'm involved in several other hobbies and pursuits where young blood is not entering. They are dying. And with it comes a similar intellectual cannibalism.

As any discipline dies, like analog scopes, the entry price will be lower and lower. Soon, for rummage sale prices, the once-crown-jewel pieces become affordable. In 1983, how many 60s fastback Mustangs were parked behind gas station garages (remember those?) and could be had for a couple hundred? Many were chopped and otherwise brutalized in ways I can't describe. But such is the price. Today, they're worth more than most people's financials.

There were many thousands of units produced of scopes and cars and organs and everything else. Some will live nice lives and some will die horrible deaths and grownups understand this. I've been the careless kid and the fastidious curator, but at both extremes I remembered the Prime Directive: this thing is MINE, not yours. If you're worried about it, you can buy it from me and store it away. If not, tough.

If we want a growing following, then we have to let the newbs make their mistakes and learn as we did - yes, even on top tier equipment. If it grows enough, someday my old junk might be worth as much as I think it is now. If not, someone will speak poorly of me as they shovel it all out into a dumpster after my demise.

Besides, if it tracks like everything else, one day some others will join your song and these units will skyrocket - at least temporarily. I own a Hammond console. In 1988, it was dumpster fodder. By 2010, it was $10K. Today, it's maybe $4k. These things have a cycle and scopes are certainly no exception.

Anyway, help every newb you can. If they want to try their hand, the answer is NEVER "let someone else do it". They're gonna do it wrong. Just as wrong as you and I used to do stuff. The sooner they learn to do it right, the sooner everything gets better.

L.

-----Original Message-----
From: TekScopes@groups.io [mailto:TekScopes@groups.io] On Behalf Of Roy Thistle
Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2020 10:52 PM
To: TekScopes@groups.io
Subject: [TekScopes] Encouraging beginners: What are we accomplishing?

Hi all TekScopers:
Reading through a long thread, recently posted, caused me to wonder.. just what are TekScopers accomplishing with threads like this... and why are we encouraging someone who is "... new to electronics..." to dig into a 475?... one of the most complex, and compact, analog instruments ever designed.
I suppose.. in consideration... Michael discouraged the use of a Mr. Carlson super Weller-kluge special, on the 475's pcb(s)... but, ya know... somewhere the thread... the 475 owner hints he paid 20.00 for 475?, and he's also got a nonworking? PM3218 too.
So why didn't someone just recommend/... right off the bat... to take the 475 to someone who knows what they are doing... drop another 100.00 on it... and then he'd have one of the best scopes ever made.
Or alternatively... and better... just start in on the PM3218...itself a very fine instrument, with a double insulated power supply... and way overkill, for a beginner.
Look, I'm not unsympathetic... it's just that...too often.. after parting with some scarce cash... or finding some Tek picked apart in a basement somewhere, where its been languishing for a generation...I've witnessed the havoc wreaked by someone trying to "fix" them.
If you want to call me a dumb ass... for thinking this way... well fine... just PM me to do it. I can't promise I'll reply to that... but, I'll read your message.
Best regards and wishes.
Roy


Chuck Harris
 

Hi Roy,

I guess the first thing is that tektronix made these scopes to
be reparable by their customers. That is why they made available
such detailed manuals for their scopes.

I am pretty sure they figured that if the customer was not
up to the challenge, the high price of replacing the scope if
they failed, would discourage unqualified repairs. And, for those
who would not be discouraged, they had a school for turning
unqualified repairmen into repairmen.

A major point that everyone should realize is these scopes are
scrap in as far as the commercial market goes. That is why they
are in the hands of novice owners. If the novice owner botches
the repair, it just moves a little closer to the scrap bin.

Every major collector's field has this debate at some point.

I have heard the museum guys argue the point successfully in front
of legislatures that metal detectorists should be jailed for
disturbing as yet unknown archeological digs with their explorations.

I have heard warbird enthusiasts demand that warbird owners should be
jailed for flying (and occasionally crashing) the airplanes they saved
from oblivion, and own.

I have heard coin collectors cry when some amateur polishes some
marginally significant coin, ruining its value...

And, I have heard a very, very, few guys like you worry about the
damage a novice may do to a scope that you don't even want...

I guess we have reached the big time!

As for paying $100 for a repair... I repair scopes cheaply, and even
I won't work on a 475 for that little.

-Chuck Harris



Roy Thistle wrote:

Hi all TekScopers:
Reading through a long thread, recently posted, caused me to wonder.. just what are TekScopers accomplishing with threads like this... and why are we encouraging someone who is "... new to electronics..." to dig into a 475?... one of the most complex, and compact, analog instruments ever designed.
I suppose.. in consideration... Michael discouraged the use of a Mr. Carlson super Weller-kluge special, on the 475's pcb(s)... but, ya know... somewhere the thread... the 475 owner hints he paid 20.00 for 475?, and he's also got a nonworking? PM3218 too.
So why didn't someone just recommend/... right off the bat... to take the 475 to someone who knows what they are doing... drop another 100.00 on it... and then he'd have one of the best scopes ever made.
Or alternatively... and better... just start in on the PM3218...itself a very fine instrument, with a double insulated power supply... and way overkill, for a beginner.
Look, I'm not unsympathetic... it's just that...too often.. after parting with some scarce cash... or finding some Tek picked apart in a basement somewhere, where its been languishing for a generation...I've witnessed the havoc wreaked by someone trying to "fix" them.
If you want to call me a dumb ass... for thinking this way... well fine... just PM me to do it. I can't promise I'll reply to that... but, I'll read your message.
Best regards and wishes.
Roy




Jamie Ostrowski
 

Does anyone have any idea, statistically, of how many scopes die from
beginners trying to repair them verses those that die to tube harvesters or
relatives who have no interest in "Bob's" old scopes who send them to the
recycler?

On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 8:42 AM LarryS <vision1@...> wrote:

In answer to your question, ANY time you bring in fresh blood, it's better
for everyone. Every time. No exceptions. A rising tide floats all boats.

Right now, Harley Davidson is facing 'massive restructuring'. Why? Their
rider base is literally dying off.
I'm involved in several other hobbies and pursuits where young blood is
not entering. They are dying. And with it comes a similar intellectual
cannibalism.

As any discipline dies, like analog scopes, the entry price will be lower
and lower. Soon, for rummage sale prices, the once-crown-jewel pieces
become affordable. In 1983, how many 60s fastback Mustangs were parked
behind gas station garages (remember those?) and could be had for a couple
hundred? Many were chopped and otherwise brutalized in ways I can't
describe. But such is the price. Today, they're worth more than most
people's financials.

There were many thousands of units produced of scopes and cars and organs
and everything else. Some will live nice lives and some will die horrible
deaths and grownups understand this. I've been the careless kid and the
fastidious curator, but at both extremes I remembered the Prime Directive:
this thing is MINE, not yours. If you're worried about it, you can buy it
from me and store it away. If not, tough.

If we want a growing following, then we have to let the newbs make their
mistakes and learn as we did - yes, even on top tier equipment. If it
grows enough, someday my old junk might be worth as much as I think it is
now. If not, someone will speak poorly of me as they shovel it all out
into a dumpster after my demise.

Besides, if it tracks like everything else, one day some others will join
your song and these units will skyrocket - at least temporarily. I own a
Hammond console. In 1988, it was dumpster fodder. By 2010, it was $10K.
Today, it's maybe $4k. These things have a cycle and scopes are certainly
no exception.

Anyway, help every newb you can. If they want to try their hand, the
answer is NEVER "let someone else do it". They're gonna do it wrong. Just
as wrong as you and I used to do stuff. The sooner they learn to do it
right, the sooner everything gets better.

L.

-----Original Message-----
From: TekScopes@groups.io [mailto:TekScopes@groups.io] On Behalf Of Roy
Thistle
Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2020 10:52 PM
To: TekScopes@groups.io
Subject: [TekScopes] Encouraging beginners: What are we accomplishing?

Hi all TekScopers:
Reading through a long thread, recently posted, caused me to wonder.. just
what are TekScopers accomplishing with threads like this... and why are we
encouraging someone who is "... new to electronics..." to dig into a
475?... one of the most complex, and compact, analog instruments ever
designed.
I suppose.. in consideration... Michael discouraged the use of a Mr.
Carlson super Weller-kluge special, on the 475's pcb(s)... but, ya know...
somewhere the thread... the 475 owner hints he paid 20.00 for 475?, and
he's also got a nonworking? PM3218 too.
So why didn't someone just recommend/... right off the bat... to take the
475 to someone who knows what they are doing... drop another 100.00 on
it... and then he'd have one of the best scopes ever made.
Or alternatively... and better... just start in on the PM3218...itself a
very fine instrument, with a double insulated power supply... and way
overkill, for a beginner.
Look, I'm not unsympathetic... it's just that...too often.. after parting
with some scarce cash... or finding some Tek picked apart in a basement
somewhere, where its been languishing for a generation...I've witnessed the
havoc wreaked by someone trying to "fix" them.
If you want to call me a dumb ass... for thinking this way... well fine...
just PM me to do it. I can't promise I'll reply to that... but, I'll read
your message.
Best regards and wishes.
Roy







Chuck Harris
 

Hi John,

I have to set the record straight.

Dennis did not jump on me for describing a way of using
an oscilloscope to measure ESR. Quite the opposite, he
even tried to help with my poorly received ascii art
attempt at displaying a schematic... Curses foiled by
groups.io's website's mandatory proportional type font,
and their overzealous period police!

If anything, I jumped on Dennis, as I think we should be
able to discuss such things on this group without fear of
reprisal. But perhaps not to the exclusion of talking
about scopes.

And, it is way off to spend time plotting how we can get
some cantankerous old fool that designed his own ESR meter
to let us copy his design and sell it among ourselves...

Dennis and I are good friends. There really was no jumping
going on here...

-Chuck Harris

John Crighton wrote:

Hello Roy,

I am really surprised at you of all people sounding like a wet blanket.

The owner of this tekscope group told you in no uncertain terms if you
want to talk about ESR Meters to go and form your own group. Which
to your credit you did just that.  I also did not like the way that the owner
of this group, Dennis Tillman, jumped on Mr Chuck Harris for describing
how to use an oscilloscope with a function generator to check capacitors
for value and ESR. Shutting someone up for describing how to use an
oscilloscope on an oscilloscope group is to me just plain crazy.
Those are rules that you have to obey, like them or not.


David Hallam
 

I will put in my 2 cents worth here.  I have a 465, and it had been in storage for about 2 years.  It wasn't working when I got it out to use.  Have owned it for about 7 years using in my trouble shooting and repair work.  The scope's case never been off.  I am a complete novice when it comes to SS electronics.  I have been a ham for a long time and have used, repaired, and home brewed tube type transmitters, receivers, and accessories.  With the help I got on TekScopes2, I was able to quickly locate and fix the problem with my scope.  I always welcome knowledgeable help from anyone.

David
KW4DH

On 5/27/2020 1:14 AM, Jim Ford wrote:
I agree with you, John.  At first I was dismayed at Bruce's many posts, but then I thought, hey, I have no experience with the 475 and no interest in one, so I'll just delete the darn posts! Simple as that!

Bruce, knock yourself out!  Post as much as you need to to get the information you need to fix your scope.  Good luck!

Jim Ford


LarryS <vision1@...>
 

87% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
:-)

L.

-----Original Message-----
From: TekScopes@groups.io [mailto:TekScopes@groups.io] On Behalf Of Jamie Ostrowski
Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2020 9:09 AM
To: TekScopes@groups.io
Subject: Re: [TekScopes] Encouraging beginners: What are we accomplishing?

Does anyone have any idea, statistically, of how many scopes die from beginners trying to repair them verses those that die to tube harvesters or relatives who have no interest in "Bob's" old scopes who send them to the recycler?



On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 8:42 AM LarryS <vision1@...> wrote:

In answer to your question, ANY time you bring in fresh blood, it's
better for everyone. Every time. No exceptions. A rising tide floats all boats.

Right now, Harley Davidson is facing 'massive restructuring'. Why?
Their rider base is literally dying off.
I'm involved in several other hobbies and pursuits where young blood
is not entering. They are dying. And with it comes a similar
intellectual cannibalism.

As any discipline dies, like analog scopes, the entry price will be
lower and lower. Soon, for rummage sale prices, the once-crown-jewel
pieces become affordable. In 1983, how many 60s fastback Mustangs
were parked behind gas station garages (remember those?) and could be
had for a couple hundred? Many were chopped and otherwise brutalized
in ways I can't describe. But such is the price. Today, they're
worth more than most people's financials.

There were many thousands of units produced of scopes and cars and
organs and everything else. Some will live nice lives and some will
die horrible deaths and grownups understand this. I've been the
careless kid and the fastidious curator, but at both extremes I remembered the Prime Directive:
this thing is MINE, not yours. If you're worried about it, you can
buy it from me and store it away. If not, tough.

If we want a growing following, then we have to let the newbs make
their mistakes and learn as we did - yes, even on top tier equipment.
If it grows enough, someday my old junk might be worth as much as I
think it is now. If not, someone will speak poorly of me as they
shovel it all out into a dumpster after my demise.

Besides, if it tracks like everything else, one day some others will
join your song and these units will skyrocket - at least temporarily.
I own a Hammond console. In 1988, it was dumpster fodder. By 2010, it was $10K.
Today, it's maybe $4k. These things have a cycle and scopes are
certainly no exception.

Anyway, help every newb you can. If they want to try their hand, the
answer is NEVER "let someone else do it". They're gonna do it wrong.
Just as wrong as you and I used to do stuff. The sooner they learn to
do it right, the sooner everything gets better.

L.

-----Original Message-----
From: TekScopes@groups.io [mailto:TekScopes@groups.io] On Behalf Of
Roy Thistle
Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2020 10:52 PM
To: TekScopes@groups.io
Subject: [TekScopes] Encouraging beginners: What are we accomplishing?

Hi all TekScopers:
Reading through a long thread, recently posted, caused me to wonder..
just what are TekScopers accomplishing with threads like this... and
why are we encouraging someone who is "... new to electronics..." to
dig into a 475?... one of the most complex, and compact, analog
instruments ever designed.
I suppose.. in consideration... Michael discouraged the use of a Mr.
Carlson super Weller-kluge special, on the 475's pcb(s)... but, ya know...
somewhere the thread... the 475 owner hints he paid 20.00 for 475?,
and he's also got a nonworking? PM3218 too.
So why didn't someone just recommend/... right off the bat... to take
the
475 to someone who knows what they are doing... drop another 100.00 on
it... and then he'd have one of the best scopes ever made.
Or alternatively... and better... just start in on the PM3218...itself
a very fine instrument, with a double insulated power supply... and
way overkill, for a beginner.
Look, I'm not unsympathetic... it's just that...too often.. after
parting with some scarce cash... or finding some Tek picked apart in a
basement somewhere, where its been languishing for a generation...I've
witnessed the havoc wreaked by someone trying to "fix" them.
If you want to call me a dumb ass... for thinking this way... well fine...
just PM me to do it. I can't promise I'll reply to that... but, I'll
read your message.
Best regards and wishes.
Roy







David Hallam
 

Sorry about all the partial posts.  It seems as if Thunderbird was saving parts of my draft and sending them when I stopped typing.

David
KW4DH

On 5/27/2020 10:33 AM, David Hallam wrote:
I will put in my 2 cents worth here.  I have a 465, and it had been in storage for about 2 years.  It wasn't working when I got it out to use.  Have owned it for about 7 years using in my trouble shooting and repair work.  The scope's case never been off.  I am a complete novice when it comes to SS electronics.  I have been a ham for a long time and have used, repaired, and home brewed tube type transmitters, receivers, and accessories.  With the help I got on TekScopes2, I was able to quickly locate and fix the problem with my scope.  I always welcome knowledgeable help from anyone.

David
KW4DH

On 5/27/2020 1:14 AM, Jim Ford wrote:
I agree with you, John.  At first I was dismayed at Bruce's many posts, but then I thought, hey, I have no experience with the 475 and no interest in one, so I'll just delete the darn posts! Simple as that!

Bruce, knock yourself out!  Post as much as you need to to get the information you need to fix your scope.  Good luck!

Jim Ford


toby@...
 

On 2020-05-27 10:08 AM, Jamie Ostrowski wrote:
Does anyone have any idea, statistically, of how many scopes die from
beginners trying to repair them verses those that die to tube harvesters or
relatives who have no interest in "Bob's" old scopes who send them to the
recycler?

Thanks Chuck, Jamie, Larry and others for your posts on this.

As a relative "beginner" in scope repair I could not say enough good
things about the encouragement and wisdom available in this mailing list
from those with great experience.

Last week I brought a 602 XY back to life with some trivial repairs.
Gaining confidence for another more challenging 602 on the bench now.
And a few more Teks waiting.

I often skim threads like the 475 thread for hints and warnings I can
use. I feel very lucky to have this list as a resource. Keep it up!

--Toby



On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 8:42 AM LarryS <vision1@...> wrote:

In answer to your question, ANY time you bring in fresh blood, it's better
for everyone. Every time. No exceptions. A rising tide floats all boats.
...
Anyway, help every newb you can. If they want to try their hand, the
answer is NEVER "let someone else do it". They're gonna do it wrong. Just
as wrong as you and I used to do stuff. The sooner they learn to do it
right, the sooner everything gets better.

L.

-----Original Message-----
From: TekScopes@groups.io [mailto:TekScopes@groups.io] On Behalf Of Roy
Thistle
Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2020 10:52 PM
To: TekScopes@groups.io
Subject: [TekScopes] Encouraging beginners: What are we accomplishing?

Hi all TekScopers:
Reading through a long thread, recently posted, caused me to wonder.. just
what are TekScopers accomplishing with threads like this... ...
Roy








Michael W. Lynch
 

LarryS 9:52am #167513
87% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
:-)

L.
Larry,

You made me laugh with this one! TRUTH!
--
Michael Lynch
Dardanelle, Arkansas


stevenhorii
 

Sorry if a bit off topic -

"Statistics are like bikinis and Speedos; what they reveal is interesting
but what they conceal is vital."

SteveH




On Wed, May 27, 2020, 11:26 Michael W. Lynch via groups.io <mlynch003=
yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

LarryS 9:52am #167513
87% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
:-)

L.
Larry,

You made me laugh with this one! TRUTH!
--
Michael Lynch
Dardanelle, Arkansas




@0culus
 

"What are we accomplishing"...quite simple really, keeping the hobby, and some of the highest quality stuff ever bestowed the label "Made in USA", alive! Newcomers are lifeblood, and sour old men scaring them away with rhetoric like post this accomplishes nothing positive. It's gatekeeping, pure and simple. Instead, why not pass on your knowledge and be happy in knowing that it isn't going to die when you do. Sorry to be blunt, but that's really important. Given proper care, a lot these Tek scopes will probably last several more decades in good service to the hobbyist, but only if younger folks have an appreciation for them and a desire to preserve them.

This is a fantastic group for preserving that knowledge base, and I thank Dennis for working hard to provide it and keep it that way.

Sean


Jeff Woolsey
 

On 5/27/20 7:08 AM, Jamie Ostrowski wrote:
Does anyone have any idea, statistically, of how many scopes die from
beginners trying to repair them verses those that die to tube harvesters or
relatives who have no interest in "Bob's" old scopes who send them to the
recycler?

As a single data point, I've killed [1] my 455 and resurrected a 2440. 
So I guess my net phosphor footprint is zero, for now.

[1] well, I expect it's repairable, but HV scares me, as it should.

--
Jeff Woolsey {{woolsey,jlw}@jlw,first.last@{gmail,jlw}}.com
Nature abhors straight antennas, clean lenses, and empty storage.
"Delete! Delete! OK!" -Dr. Bronner on disk space management
Card-sorting, Joel. -Crow on solitaire


Roy Thistle
 

On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 08:51 AM, stevenhorii wrote:


87% of all statistics are made up on the spot
Well, you can take the Bayesian approach... a subjective interpretation of probability models, with feedback training... it's as legit as the frequency approach.
But anyway... back to Tek.
Some great blow-back, and thoughtful comments from everyone, particularly from Chuck... who even though... if he is referring to my values, and my thinking, has got me completely wrong... Chuck provided some great incite into what makes "collectors" tick.... and perhaps what professional repairs cost in the U.S.A.
Again, I should mention, if you want to tell me what I think, just PM me... I read my email. Although, IMO, asking me is often far more elucidatiing.. I'll admit, mileage may vary.
Best regards and wishes.
All the best
Roy


James Theonas
 

Hi Friends (and I don't say this lightly)
I'm a noob at oscilloscopes as they have always been out of my reach to purchase. I have worked many years and mostly depended on my trusty Multimeter to get me by. I have finally got my self an Oscilloscope the 2465b and I am very happy with my purchase. I did however have to clean some contacts in the ch1 attenuator and literally had to take the thing apart! A little scary but with the help of this group I got through it! Oscilloscope is up and running and working great despite the thread I had opened going overboard about cleaning fluids and alcohol and even reaching moonshine and distilleries! Funny thing is I didn't use alcohol at all but used benzine and cotton to clean contacts! In any case as a noob as I consider myself (my first true oscilloscope) this group came through for me in flying colors or colours (depends on where your from) and I am very grateful for its existence and everyone here!
Dimitris Theonas

On Wednesday, May 27, 2020, 10:07:48 PM GMT+3, Roy Thistle <roy.thistle@...> wrote:

On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 08:51 AM, stevenhorii wrote:


87% of all statistics are made up on the spot
Well, you can take the Bayesian approach... a subjective interpretation of probability models, with feedback training... it's as legit as the frequency approach.
But anyway... back to Tek.
Some great blow-back, and thoughtful comments from everyone, particularly from Chuck... who even though... if he is referring to my values, and my thinking, has got me completely wrong... Chuck provided some great incite into what makes "collectors" tick.... and perhaps what professional repairs cost in the U.S.A.
Again, I should mention, if you want to tell me what I think, just PM me... I read my email. Although, IMO, asking me is often far more elucidatiing.. I'll admit, mileage may vary.
Best regards and wishes.
All the best
Roy