Topics

Dumont knock off of Tek

Bill Higdon
 

Dave Seiter
 

Funny how things come in groups; I've never seen a transistorized Dumont scope in the flesh, but I literally stumbled on one this morning at an estate sale.  An R1062.  I would have never given it a second look, except for this post.  It was clean, undamaged, and the guy offered it to me for $5....  After digging up the proper HP power cord, I found out that it actually works, so I'm going to donate it to my buddy until I get the 7603 working.
Anyone ever seen a service manual or schematics for the 1062?  I took a quick look at the interior, and I don't remember any of the pots being labeled.   The trace rotation and horizontal width need help.
The panel layout could have been greatly improved- the horizontal centering is no where near the other horizontal controls, the delayed trigger controls are prominent while the normal trigger is almost hidden, and it took me forever to find the trigger source selector.  That's what you get when playing with a rackmount scope on a tabletop!
-Dave

On Thursday, June 20, 2019, 6:06:24 PM PDT, Bill Higdon via Groups.Io <willard561=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:

I found this on the Seattle Craigslist
https://seattle.craigslist.org/oly/ele/d/olympia-dumont-766-series-oscilloscope/6913548974.html
Bill

ken chalfant
 

Greetings,

I’m not sure it is fair to call a Dumont scope a Tek knock-off.

Allen B. Dumont opened his company in the 1930’s and was producing an oscilloscope around 1943.

Tektronix was founded in 1946.

HP, founded in 1939 produced its first scope, the HP-130A, on or about 1956.

Initially Dumont was probably the leader in oscilloscope technology for a few years, but Tektronix quickly took the lead.

The competition between Tek and HP was good for the industry in general and Tek and HP specifically. Dumont was unable to keep pace. Perhaps because Mr. Dumont was not as open to new ideas as was Tektronix and Hewlett Packard leaders.

I believe Dumont was eventually acquired by Fairchild. I actually owned a dual beam, four channel Fairchild/Dumont scope. I also owned a number of other Dumont scopes. They really weren’t knock-offs.

Interestingly, a company named Lavoie made “exact” (well sort-of) Tek knock-offs of the 53x and maybe the 54x scopes. The story I heard told that this opportunity came about because the military was pressured to open bid for scopes meeting the Tektronix specifications. I have used some Lavoie scopes a long time ago. From the outside they looked almost exactly like the Tek scope they copied, but the knobs were different. However, they were not the same level of quality construction on the inside as the Tek scopes.

That’s my two cents, FWIW.

Regards,

Ken

On 21Jun, 2019, at 8:54 PM, Dave Seiter <d.seiter@...> wrote:

Funny how things come in groups; I've never seen a transistorized Dumont scope in the flesh, but I literally stumbled on one this morning at an estate sale. An R1062. I would have never given it a second look, except for this post. It was clean, undamaged, and the guy offered it to me for $5.... After digging up the proper HP power cord, I found out that it actually works, so I'm going to donate it to my buddy until I get the 7603 working.
Anyone ever seen a service manual or schematics for the 1062? I took a quick look at the interior, and I don't remember any of the pots being labeled. The trace rotation and horizontal width need help.
The panel layout could have been greatly improved- the horizontal centering is no where near the other horizontal controls, the delayed trigger controls are prominent while the normal trigger is almost hidden, and it took me forever to find the trigger source selector. That's what you get when playing with a rackmount scope on a tabletop!
-Dave
On Thursday, June 20, 2019, 6:06:24 PM PDT, Bill Higdon via Groups.Io <willard561=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:

I found this on the Seattle Craigslist
https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fseattle.craigslist.org%2Foly%2Fele%2Fd%2Folympia-dumont-766-series-oscilloscope%2F6913548974.html&amp;data=02%7C01%7C%7C876efc5d49cb441305b208d6f6bce83b%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636967688537380724&amp;sdata=ZIv42ESyeEsQzekSauGT9UL28m0giBBp77fSyuKQdTk%3D&amp;reserved=0
Bill




Dave Brown
 

Richard Solomon
 

From what I was told back in the 60's,
it was a Marketing decision.

Dumont believed there was no market
for high frequency scopes so they
concentrated on low frequency (500 Kc
max) high sensitivity (microvolts in some
cases) scopes.

Tektronix held the opposite belief (high
frequency).

We all know who made the right decision.

73, Dick, W1KSZ

On Sat, Jun 22, 2019 at 11:20 AM ken chalfant <kpchalfant@...> wrote:

Greetings,

I’m not sure it is fair to call a Dumont scope a Tek knock-off.

Allen B. Dumont opened his company in the 1930’s and was producing an
oscilloscope around 1943.

Tektronix was founded in 1946.

HP, founded in 1939 produced its first scope, the HP-130A, on or about
1956.

Initially Dumont was probably the leader in oscilloscope technology for a
few years, but Tektronix quickly took the lead.

The competition between Tek and HP was good for the industry in general
and Tek and HP specifically. Dumont was unable to keep pace. Perhaps
because Mr. Dumont was not as open to new ideas as was Tektronix and
Hewlett Packard leaders.

I believe Dumont was eventually acquired by Fairchild. I actually owned a
dual beam, four channel Fairchild/Dumont scope. I also owned a number of
other Dumont scopes. They really weren’t knock-offs.

Interestingly, a company named Lavoie made “exact” (well sort-of) Tek
knock-offs of the 53x and maybe the 54x scopes. The story I heard told
that this opportunity came about because the military was pressured to open
bid for scopes meeting the Tektronix specifications. I have used some
Lavoie scopes a long time ago. From the outside they looked almost exactly
like the Tek scope they copied, but the knobs were different. However,
they were not the same level of quality construction on the inside as the
Tek scopes.

That’s my two cents, FWIW.

Regards,

Ken


On 21Jun, 2019, at 8:54 PM, Dave Seiter <d.seiter@...> wrote:

Funny how things come in groups; I've never seen a transistorized Dumont
scope in the flesh, but I literally stumbled on one this morning at an
estate sale. An R1062. I would have never given it a second look, except
for this post. It was clean, undamaged, and the guy offered it to me for
$5.... After digging up the proper HP power cord, I found out that it
actually works, so I'm going to donate it to my buddy until I get the 7603
working.
Anyone ever seen a service manual or schematics for the 1062? I took a
quick look at the interior, and I don't remember any of the pots being
labeled. The trace rotation and horizontal width need help.
The panel layout could have been greatly improved- the horizontal
centering is no where near the other horizontal controls, the delayed
trigger controls are prominent while the normal trigger is almost hidden,
and it took me forever to find the trigger source selector. That's what
you get when playing with a rackmount scope on a tabletop!
-Dave
On Thursday, June 20, 2019, 6:06:24 PM PDT, Bill Higdon via Groups.Io
<willard561=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:

I found this on the Seattle Craigslist
https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fseattle.craigslist.org%2Foly%2Fele%2Fd%2Folympia-dumont-766-series-oscilloscope%2F6913548974.html&amp;data=02%7C01%7C%7C876efc5d49cb441305b208d6f6bce83b%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636967688537380724&amp;sdata=ZIv42ESyeEsQzekSauGT9UL28m0giBBp77fSyuKQdTk%3D&amp;reserved=0
Bill







Richard Knoppow
 

A strange decision for DuMont since they were deeply involved with television.

On 6/22/2019 2:28 PM, Richard Solomon wrote:
From what I was told back in the 60's,
it was a Marketing decision.
Dumont believed there was no market
for high frequency scopes so they
concentrated on low frequency (500 Kc
max) high sensitivity (microvolts in some
cases) scopes.
Tektronix held the opposite belief (high
frequency).
We all know who made the right decision.
73, Dick, W1KSZ
--
Richard Knoppow
dickburk@...
WB6KBL

Bob Albert
 

The story I heard was that Dumont himself said that his company would always be the leader in oscilloscpes, somewhat akin to the president of Ford saying the Japanese could never erase the 20 year lead that Ford had.
Mr. Dumont didn't face reality.  Then we see that his company made a Tek clone.  I recall LaVoie for one doing that.  Or was that LeCroy?  Then Fairchild did it but they were the same as Dumont I think.  I owned one and it was a good performer.
This corporate ball of snakes really puts so many at a disadvantage.  Greed certainly turns out to be an enemy, but it's human nature apparently.

On Saturday, June 22, 2019, 02:46:19 PM PDT, Richard Knoppow <dickburk@...> wrote:

    A strange decision for DuMont since they were deeply involved
with television.

On 6/22/2019 2:28 PM, Richard Solomon wrote:
From what I was told back in the 60's,
it was a Marketing decision.

Dumont believed there was no market
for high frequency scopes so they
concentrated on low frequency (500 Kc
max) high sensitivity (microvolts in some
cases) scopes.

Tektronix held the opposite belief (high
frequency).

We all know who made the right decision.

73, Dick, W1KSZ
--
Richard Knoppow
dickburk@...
WB6KBL

Brad Thompson
 

Bob Albert via Groups.Io wrote:

  The story I heard was that Dumont himself said that his company would always be the leader in oscilloscpes, somewhat akin to the president of Ford saying the Japanese could never erase the 20 year lead that Ford had.
Mr. Dumont didn't face reality.  Then we see that his company made a Tek clone.  I recall LaVoie for one doing that.  Or was that LeCroy?  Then Fairchild did it but they were the same as Dumont I think.  I owned one and it was a good performer.
This corporate ball of snakes really puts so many at a disadvantage.  Greed certainly turns out to be an enemy, but it's human nature apparently.
     On Saturday, June 22, 2019, 02:46:19 PM PDT, Richard Knoppow <dickburk@...> wrote:

      A strange decision for DuMont since they were deeply involved
with television.

On 6/22/2019 2:28 PM, Richard Solomon wrote:

From what I was told back in the 60's,
it was a Marketing decision.

Dumont believed there was no market
for high frequency scopes so they
concentrated on low frequency (500 Kc
max) high sensitivity (microvolts in some
cases) scopes.

Tektronix held the opposite belief (high
frequency).

We all know who made the right decision.

73, Dick, W1KSZ

Hello--

And before that, in 1934 General Radio offered an oscilloscope
(the model 687) with "useful" response to 130 MHz:

https://www.ietlabs.com/genrad_history/genrad_museum

Quoting from the museum site: "...GR decided not to make more oscilloscopes deciding that they were not precise enough for laboratory use and only useful in the radio service shop. Needless to say, that was a lost opportunity. However in 1938 they did make an advanced oscilloscope, the type 770, known as “Big Bertha”, but it was only used internally and never sold...."

...Which begs an obvious question: given GR's reputation for building precision
instruments, why didn't someone on the staff tackle the "precision problem" and
make a good oscilloscope?

73--

Brad  AA1IP

Jim Potter
 

I'm guessing that scope didn't have any amplifiers or sweep. That meant you had to have big enough voltage signals to deflect the beam directly. It would be interesting to see more detailed specifications.

Jim

At 05:45 PM 6/22/2019, Brad Thompson wrote:
Bob Albert via Groups.Io wrote:

 The story I heard was that Dumont himself said that his company would always be the leader in oscilloscpes, somewhat akin to the president of Ford saying the Japanese could never erase the 20 year lead that Ford had.
Mr. Dumont didn't face reality. Then we see that his company made a Tek clone. I recall LaVoie for one doing that. Or was that LeCroy? Then Fairchild did it but they were the same as Dumont I think. I owned one and it was a good performer.
This corporate ball of snakes really puts so many at a disadvantage. Greed certainly turns out to be an enemy, but it's human nature apparently.
    On Saturday, June 22, 2019, 02:46:19 PM PDT, Richard Knoppow <dickburk@...> wrote:

   A strange decision for DuMont since they were deeply involved
with television.

On 6/22/2019 2:28 PM, Richard Solomon wrote:

From what I was told back in the 60's,
it was a Marketing decision.

Dumont believed there was no market
for high frequency scopes so they
concentrated on low frequency (500 Kc
max) high sensitivity (microvolts in some
cases) scopes.

Tektronix held the opposite belief (high
frequency).

We all know who made the right decision.

73, Dick, W1KSZ

Hello--

And before that, in 1934 General Radio offered an oscilloscope
(the model 687) with "useful" response to 130 MHz:

https://www.ietlabs.com/genrad_history/genrad_museum

Quoting from the museum site: "...GR decided not to make more oscilloscopes deciding that they were not precise enough for laboratory use and only useful in the radio service shop. Needless to say, that was a lost opportunity. However in 1938 they did make an advanced oscilloscope, the type 770, known as “Big Berthaâ€&#65533;, but it was only used internally and never sold...."

...Which begs an obvious question: given GR's reputation for building precision
instruments, why didn't someone on the staff tackle the "precision problem" and
make a good oscilloscope?

73--

Brad AA1IP

James M. Potter, PhD, President
JP Accelerator Works, Inc.
2245 47th Street
Los Alamos, NM 87544

TEL: 505-690-8701

cksamsung.ck@...
 

I'm new to this tekscope group. I was referred by someone at QRZ forum and
I hope I'm not being out of line. Does anyone know Dan Shores in Portland.

Chris K

On Fri, Jun 21, 2019, 7:54 PM Dave Seiter <d.seiter@...> wrote:

Funny how things come in groups; I've never seen a transistorized Dumont
scope in the flesh, but I literally stumbled on one this morning at an
estate sale. An R1062. I would have never given it a second look, except
for this post. It was clean, undamaged, and the guy offered it to me for
$5.... After digging up the proper HP power cord, I found out that it
actually works, so I'm going to donate it to my buddy until I get the 7603
working.
Anyone ever seen a service manual or schematics for the 1062? I took a
quick look at the interior, and I don't remember any of the pots being
labeled. The trace rotation and horizontal width need help.
The panel layout could have been greatly improved- the horizontal
centering is no where near the other horizontal controls, the delayed
trigger controls are prominent while the normal trigger is almost hidden,
and it took me forever to find the trigger source selector. That's what
you get when playing with a rackmount scope on a tabletop!
-Dave
On Thursday, June 20, 2019, 6:06:24 PM PDT, Bill Higdon via Groups.Io
<willard561=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:

I found this on the Seattle Craigslist

https://seattle.craigslist.org/oly/ele/d/olympia-dumont-766-series-oscilloscope/6913548974.html
Bill





greenboxmaven
 

On 6/22/19 2:20 PM, ken chalfant wrote:
Greetings,



Initially Dumont was probably the leader in oscilloscope technology for a few years, but Tektronix quickly took the lead.
By the mid 1960s, Dumonts were easy to find and not expensive for high school kids with "pump gas-cut grass-throw papers" money. The low frequency response made them less than ideal for TV shop work, and useless for repairing the color circuits in TVs. A Heathkit, Eico, or perhaps RCA might be within reach, but a Tektronix was a dream most of us had to wait some time for.


I believe Dumont was eventually acquired by Fairchild. I actually owned a dual beam, four channel Fairchild/Dumont scope. I also owned a number of other Dumont scopes. They really weren???t knock-offs.
I was given a monsterous Dumont dual beam scope that did not work. I restored it and used it mostly for audio. I think it might have made it to 500KC.

Interestingly, a company named Lavoie made ???exact??? (well sort-of) Tek knock-offs of the 53x and maybe the 54x scopes. The story I heard told that this opportunity came about because the military was pressured to open bid for scopes meeting the Tektronix specifications. I have used some Lavoie scopes a long time ago. From the outside they looked almost exactly like the Tek scope they copied, but the knobs were different. However, they were not the same level of quality construction on the inside as the Tek scopes.
I used them in the Air Force. The ones we had were "clones" of the 524. They worked ok, but just were not the "real thing". There was indeed an effort to avoid relying on one maker for a while. One of the most interesting was the Eldeco copy of the Collins KWM-2 transceiver


Bruce Gentry, KA2IVY

That???s my two cents, FWIW.

Regards,

Ken





Leon Robinson
 

Ken,

I had a Jettronix 535 equivalent 50 years ago.  I have a Lavoie La-265 and the CA equivalent.  It hasn't been powered up in probably 15 or 20 years.


Sent from K5JLR

-------- Original message --------
From: ken chalfant <kpchalfant@...>
Date: 06/22/2019 1:20 PM (GMT-06:00)
To: TekScopes@groups.io
Subject: Re: [TekScopes] Dumont knock off of Tek

Greetings,

I’m not sure it is fair to call a Dumont scope a Tek knock-off.

Allen B. Dumont opened his company in the 1930’s and was producing an oscilloscope around 1943.

Tektronix was founded in 1946.

HP, founded in 1939 produced its first scope, the HP-130A, on or about 1956.

Initially Dumont was probably the leader in oscilloscope technology for a few years, but Tektronix quickly took the lead.

The competition between Tek and HP was good for the industry in general and Tek and HP specifically.  Dumont was unable to keep pace.  Perhaps because Mr. Dumont was not as open to new ideas as was Tektronix and Hewlett Packard leaders.

I believe Dumont was eventually acquired by Fairchild.  I actually owned a dual beam, four channel Fairchild/Dumont scope.  I also owned a number of other Dumont scopes.  They really weren’t knock-offs.

Interestingly, a company named Lavoie made “exact” (well sort-of) Tek knock-offs of the 53x and maybe the 54x scopes.  The story I heard told that this opportunity came about because the military was pressured to open bid for scopes meeting the Tektronix specifications.  I have used some Lavoie scopes a long time ago.  From the outside they looked almost exactly like the Tek scope they copied, but the knobs were different.  However, they were not the same level of quality construction on the inside as the Tek scopes.

That’s my two cents, FWIW.

Regards,

Ken


On 21Jun, 2019, at 8:54 PM, Dave Seiter <d.seiter@...> wrote:

Funny how things come in groups; I've never seen a transistorized Dumont scope in the flesh, but I literally stumbled on one this morning at an estate sale.  An R1062.  I would have never given it a second look, except for this post.  It was clean, undamaged, and the guy offered it to me for $5....  After digging up the proper HP power cord, I found out that it actually works, so I'm going to donate it to my buddy until I get the 7603 working.
Anyone ever seen a service manual or schematics for the 1062?  I took a quick look at the interior, and I don't remember any of the pots being labeled.   The trace rotation and horizontal width need help.
The panel layout could have been greatly improved- the horizontal centering is no where near the other horizontal controls, the delayed trigger controls are prominent while the normal trigger is almost hidden, and it took me forever to find the trigger source selector.  That's what you get when playing with a rackmount scope on a tabletop!
-Dave
    On Thursday, June 20, 2019, 6:06:24 PM PDT, Bill Higdon via Groups.Io <willard561=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:

I found this on the Seattle Craigslist
https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fseattle.craigslist.org%2Foly%2Fele%2Fd%2Folympia-dumont-766-series-oscilloscope%2F6913548974.html&amp;data=02%7C01%7C%7C876efc5d49cb441305b208d6f6bce83b%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636967688537380724&amp;sdata=ZIv42ESyeEsQzekSauGT9UL28m0giBBp77fSyuKQdTk%3D&amp;reserved=0
Bill




Stephen Hanselman
 

So did Knight-Kit,

Regards,

Stephen Hanselman
Datagate Systems, LLC

On Jun 22, 2019, at 11:20, ken chalfant <kpchalfant@...> wrote:

Greetings,

I’m not sure it is fair to call a Dumont scope a Tek knock-off.

Allen B. Dumont opened his company in the 1930’s and was producing an oscilloscope around 1943.

Tektronix was founded in 1946.

HP, founded in 1939 produced its first scope, the HP-130A, on or about 1956.

Initially Dumont was probably the leader in oscilloscope technology for a few years, but Tektronix quickly took the lead.

The competition between Tek and HP was good for the industry in general and Tek and HP specifically. Dumont was unable to keep pace. Perhaps because Mr. Dumont was not as open to new ideas as was Tektronix and Hewlett Packard leaders.

I believe Dumont was eventually acquired by Fairchild. I actually owned a dual beam, four channel Fairchild/Dumont scope. I also owned a number of other Dumont scopes. They really weren’t knock-offs.

Interestingly, a company named Lavoie made “exact” (well sort-of) Tek knock-offs of the 53x and maybe the 54x scopes. The story I heard told that this opportunity came about because the military was pressured to open bid for scopes meeting the Tektronix specifications. I have used some Lavoie scopes a long time ago. From the outside they looked almost exactly like the Tek scope they copied, but the knobs were different. However, they were not the same level of quality construction on the inside as the Tek scopes.

That’s my two cents, FWIW.

Regards,

Ken


On 21Jun, 2019, at 8:54 PM, Dave Seiter <d.seiter@...> wrote:

Funny how things come in groups; I've never seen a transistorized Dumont scope in the flesh, but I literally stumbled on one this morning at an estate sale. An R1062. I would have never given it a second look, except for this post. It was clean, undamaged, and the guy offered it to me for $5.... After digging up the proper HP power cord, I found out that it actually works, so I'm going to donate it to my buddy until I get the 7603 working.
Anyone ever seen a service manual or schematics for the 1062? I took a quick look at the interior, and I don't remember any of the pots being labeled. The trace rotation and horizontal width need help.
The panel layout could have been greatly improved- the horizontal centering is no where near the other horizontal controls, the delayed trigger controls are prominent while the normal trigger is almost hidden, and it took me forever to find the trigger source selector. That's what you get when playing with a rackmount scope on a tabletop!
-Dave
On Thursday, June 20, 2019, 6:06:24 PM PDT, Bill Higdon via Groups.Io <willard561=aol.com@groups.io> wrote:

I found this on the Seattle Craigslist
https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fseattle.craigslist.org%2Foly%2Fele%2Fd%2Folympia-dumont-766-series-oscilloscope%2F6913548974.html&amp;data=02%7C01%7C%7C876efc5d49cb441305b208d6f6bce83b%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636967688537380724&amp;sdata=ZIv42ESyeEsQzekSauGT9UL28m0giBBp77fSyuKQdTk%3D&amp;reserved=0
Bill






Jim Strohm
 

Hi

LaVoie was one of many.

Part of the knock-off issue was that for tek to sell to the military, there
needed to be "second sources" -- that delivered a functionally identical
unit, but not an illegal clone.

Tek cracked down on a lot of the clones by putting functionless features in
their 'scopes like extra holes in the chassis, and sometimes labeling them
with bogus info.

If the "second source" scopes had these non-features, Tek just sued them
and got them banned from government supply contracts.

I think for the R-390, Collins supplied full specs to anybody who asked,
but told them not to bother re-engineering their PTO assembly, advising the
other vendors that it would be cheaper to design their own than to clone
the Collins PTO. If you've ever opened one, you'd understand.

73
Jim N6OTQ

P.S. There is a difference between a functional work-alike and a
knock-off/rip-off clone. Sadly, this concept has not propagated outside
the Western hemisphere.