copyrights & CDROMs


david@...
 

PS . . . . . I have to confess that I have made a copy of a page or two for
some desparate Tek equipment owners in the past myself. One guy now offers a
CD ROM with 46 complete manuals on it, which I consider orders of magnitude
worse than anything like this that I have seen in the past.
The manuals on that CDROM are *not* OEM Tek or HP manuals. They are US
Army manuals that are publically available on an Army web site. I'm
looking at one now (TM 11-6625-2759-14, aka Tek 7L5 service manual) and it
says "This manual contains copywrite [sic] material reproduced by
permission of the Tektronix Company." If Tektronix objects to reproduction
of this manual, it's really up to them to complain to the Army. The guy
selling the CDROM is not at fault.

For what it's worth, my opinion on the copyright issue is that the test
equipment companies are happy with the current ambiguous situation and
don't have any reason to clarify it. They also don't have an incentive
to sue people for copyright violation since the legal expenses would far
exceed any possible damages they could collect. Therefore, I predict the
current situation will continue.

In support of this, I have noticed that even the largest test equipment
dealers often supply photocopied manuals with the used equipment they sell.
Two examples are Electro Rent and Tucker (Tucker also sells photocopied
service manuals). This doesn't really prove anything, but since they are
franchised dealers for new equipment from HP and Tek, it supports the idea
that those companies must not be bothered too much by the practice.


Don Black <jeans@...>
 

Hi David,
Can you please post the URL of the ARmy web site with the manuals.
I'd be interested in seeing what they look like and how they compare to the
original Tek manuals. Is there a cross reference to from the army to Tek numbers ?

Thanks, Don Black.

david@slack.com wrote:

PS . . . . . I have to confess that I have made a copy of a page or two for
some desparate Tek equipment owners in the past myself. One guy now offers a
CD ROM with 46 complete manuals on it, which I consider orders of magnitude
worse than anything like this that I have seen in the past.
The manuals on that CDROM are *not* OEM Tek or HP manuals. They are US
Army manuals that are publically available on an Army web site. I'm
looking at one now (TM 11-6625-2759-14, aka Tek 7L5 service manual) and it
says "This manual contains copywrite [sic] material reproduced by
permission of the Tektronix Company." If Tektronix objects to reproduction
of this manual, it's really up to them to complain to the Army. The guy
selling the CDROM is not at fault.

For what it's worth, my opinion on the copyright issue is that the test
equipment companies are happy with the current ambiguous situation and
don't have any reason to clarify it. They also don't have an incentive
to sue people for copyright violation since the legal expenses would far
exceed any possible damages they could collect. Therefore, I predict the
current situation will continue.

In support of this, I have noticed that even the largest test equipment
dealers often supply photocopied manuals with the used equipment they sell.
Two examples are Electro Rent and Tucker (Tucker also sells photocopied
service manuals). This doesn't really prove anything, but since they are
franchised dealers for new equipment from HP and Tek, it supports the idea
that those companies must not be bothered too much by the practice.


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Miroslav Pokorni <mpokorni@...>
 

To my mind examples of Electro Rent and Tucker show that Tektronix prefer
attitude 'do not ask, do not tell', the same as was allegedly hinted to
Dean. I visited couple of sites that were listed in Stan's mailing,
http://www.tek.com/Measurement/scopes/index.html
<http://www.tek.com/Measurement/scopes/index.html> Both of them are mostly
copies; if Tektronix wanted to go after someone these two guys would be
prime targets. As for legality of the matter, it seems quite clear that
Tektronix does not want to be bothered by enforcing their copyright, whether
it is manual business or their franchised distributor. I am not saying that
it is right to infringe Tektronix copyright, but I see clear evidence that
they are not going to put teeth into it.

The letters that Stan mentioned and I understand that he meant mass mailing,
would be very effective. If letters came from people who still work and on
company letterhead, Tektronix might get an idea how their scheming is
received by potential customers. I do not think that Stan and Dean should be
asked to sign a 'collective letter'; they still know lot of people at
Tektronix and no strain should be put on those relationships. Besides, in
Tektronix's mind our group, as collectors, is of no consequence, they are
looking at people who would buy new equipment.


Regards

Miroslav Pokorni

-----Original Message-----
From: david@slack.com [mailto:david@slack.com]
Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2001 10:03 AM
To: TekScopes@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [TekScopes] Re: copyrights & CDROMs

>PS . . . . . I have to confess that I have made a copy of a
page or two for
>some desparate Tek equipment owners in the past myself.
One guy now offers a
>CD ROM with 46 complete manuals on it, which I consider
orders of magnitude
>worse than anything like this that I have seen in the past.

The manuals on that CDROM are *not* OEM Tek or HP manuals.
They are US
Army manuals that are publically available on an Army web
site. I'm
looking at one now (TM 11-6625-2759-14, aka Tek 7L5 service
manual) and it
says "This manual contains copywrite [sic] material
reproduced by
permission of the Tektronix Company." If Tektronix objects
to reproduction
of this manual, it's really up to them to complain to the
Army. The guy
selling the CDROM is not at fault.

For what it's worth, my opinion on the copyright issue is
that the test
equipment companies are happy with the current ambiguous
situation and
don't have any reason to clarify it. They also don't have
an incentive
to sue people for copyright violation since the legal
expenses would far
exceed any possible damages they could collect. Therefore,
I predict the
current situation will continue.

In support of this, I have noticed that even the largest
test equipment
dealers often supply photocopied manuals with the used
equipment they sell.
Two examples are Electro Rent and Tucker (Tucker also sells
photocopied
service manuals). This doesn't really prove anything, but
since they are
franchised dealers for new equipment from HP and Tek, it
supports the idea
that those companies must not be bothered too much by the
practice.


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Phil (VA3UX) <phil@...>
 

I'd be very careful about starting a campaign with Tek about the vintage manual situation. I suggest we "let sleeping dogs lie". We've already been given a preview of the answer such a request is likely to bring : one retired employee has never received permission and another retired employee was purportedly told " don't ask questions that you won't like the answers to". That last statement - if it's true an accurate - has the answer we're all looking for anyway but it's cleverly cloaked.

A petition is likely to attract the kind of attention that will have the effect opposite to the intended goal. In today's high tech paranoia-driven organizations, I can easily conceive a Vice President of Historical Relations and Vintage Affairs looking at this and thinking, " my gawd ! There's 200 names on this letter. This must just be the tip of the iceburg. There must really be thousands of potential customers for new products that are being held captive by our older products. We'll stop this menace right now. We'll issue a letter informing that we intend to prosecute copyright infringement to full extent of the law, no matter how old the product. We'll force them out of the 60's and 70's and into the year 2001". And then where would we be ? Worse-off than we are right now where little if any attention is being paid to the miniscule market for copied old manuals.

My advice : drop the issue and carry on as we have been.

Phil

At 12:13 PM 9/17/2001 -0700, you wrote:
<snip>

The letters that Stan mentioned and I understand that he meant mass mailing,
would be very effective. If letters came from people who still work and on
company letterhead, Tektronix might get an idea how their scheming is
received by potential customers. I do not think that Stan and Dean should be
asked to sign a 'collective letter'; they still know lot of people at
Tektronix and no strain should be put on those relationships. Besides, in
Tektronix's mind our group, as collectors, is of no consequence, they are
looking at people who would buy new equipment.


Regards

Miroslav Pokorni



-----Original Message-----
From: david@slack.com [mailto:david@slack.com]
Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2001 10:03 AM
To: TekScopes@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [TekScopes] Re: copyrights & CDROMs

>PS . . . . . I have to confess that I have made a copy of a
page or two for
>some desparate Tek equipment owners in the past myself.
One guy now offers a
>CD ROM with 46 complete manuals on it, which I consider
orders of magnitude
>worse than anything like this that I have seen in the past.

The manuals on that CDROM are *not* OEM Tek or HP manuals.
They are US
Army manuals that are publically available on an Army web
site. I'm
looking at one now (TM 11-6625-2759-14, aka Tek 7L5 service
manual) and it
says "This manual contains copywrite [sic] material
reproduced by
permission of the Tektronix Company." If Tektronix objects
to reproduction
of this manual, it's really up to them to complain to the
Army. The guy
selling the CDROM is not at fault.

For what it's worth, my opinion on the copyright issue is
that the test
equipment companies are happy with the current ambiguous
situation and
don't have any reason to clarify it. They also don't have
an incentive
to sue people for copyright violation since the legal
expenses would far
exceed any possible damages they could collect. Therefore,
I predict the
current situation will continue.

In support of this, I have noticed that even the largest
test equipment
dealers often supply photocopied manuals with the used
equipment they sell.
Two examples are Electro Rent and Tucker (Tucker also sells
photocopied
service manuals). This doesn't really prove anything, but
since they are
franchised dealers for new equipment from HP and Tek, it
supports the idea
that those companies must not be bothered too much by the
practice.


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Ashton Brown <ashtonb@...>
 

Having used Tek products since '56, known Paul Magnusson for a bunch of
those years - I concur exactly with Phil's observation (and deductions
of the hints we have been given + probable results of NOT heeding them).

Let this cocker spaniel doze indefinitely. Logic has little to do with
Bizness-2001: ask self how many continue to pay the Microsoft tax,
despite all we now know? Then ask what anyone cares about those who
appreciate 'Art' and want to preserve it (!)

(Nor can I yet fathom paying >$20K for an instrument with throw-away sm
boards, expected to be "written off" in 5 years and unserviceable in 6+.
They are nuts or I am.)

Ashton


"Phil (VA3UX)" wrote:


I'd be very careful about starting a campaign with Tek about the vintage
manual situation. I suggest we "let sleeping dogs lie". We've already been
given a preview of the answer such a request is likely to bring : one
retired employee has never received permission and another retired employee
was purportedly told " don't ask questions that you won't like the answers
to". That last statement - if it's true an accurate - has the answer we're
all looking for anyway but it's cleverly cloaked.

A petition is likely to attract the kind of attention that will have the
effect opposite to the intended goal. In today's high tech paranoia-driven
organizations, I can easily conceive a Vice President of Historical
Relations and Vintage Affairs looking at this and thinking, " my gawd !
There's 200 names on this letter. This must just be the tip of the iceburg.
There must really be thousands of potential customers for new products that
are being held captive by our older products. We'll stop this menace right
now. We'll issue a letter informing that we intend to prosecute copyright
infringement to full extent of the law, no matter how old the
product. We'll force them out of the 60's and 70's and into the year
2001". And then where would we be ? Worse-off than we are right now where
little if any attention is being paid to the miniscule market for copied
old manuals.

My advice : drop the issue and carry on as we have been.

Phil


Miroslav Pokorni <mpokorni@...>
 

Phil,

That is pretty sound advice, yes a mass mailing might really cause an undue
concern. I guess I got a bit carried away. I will site my youth as a cause,
I am only 56 years old.

The whole discussion did get overheated because we all mixed strict rule of
law, what is right (ethics) and what is practical. Your suggestion is on the
side of practical with some view of ethics, and that is probably best course
to take.


Regards

Miroslav Pokorni

-----Original Message-----
From: Phil (VA3UX) [mailto:phil@vaxxine.com]
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 7:46 PM
To: TekScopes@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [TekScopes] Re: copyrights & CDROMs

I'd be very careful about starting a campaign with Tek about
the vintage
manual situation. I suggest we "let sleeping dogs lie".
We've already been
given a preview of the answer such a request is likely to
bring : one
retired employee has never received permission and another
retired employee
was purportedly told " don't ask questions that you won't
like the answers
to". That last statement - if it's true an accurate - has
the answer we're
all looking for anyway but it's cleverly cloaked.

A petition is likely to attract the kind of attention that
will have the
effect opposite to the intended goal. In today's high tech
paranoia-driven
organizations, I can easily conceive a Vice President of
Historical
Relations and Vintage Affairs looking at this and thinking,
" my gawd !
There's 200 names on this letter. This must just be the tip
of the iceburg.
There must really be thousands of potential customers for
new products that
are being held captive by our older products. We'll stop
this menace right
now. We'll issue a letter informing that we intend to
prosecute copyright
infringement to full extent of the law, no matter how old
the
product. We'll force them out of the 60's and 70's and into
the year
2001". And then where would we be ? Worse-off than we are
right now where
little if any attention is being paid to the miniscule
market for copied
old manuals.

My advice : drop the issue and carry on as we have been.

Phil

At 12:13 PM 9/17/2001 -0700, you wrote:
><snip>
>
>The letters that Stan mentioned and I understand that he
meant mass mailing,
>would be very effective. If letters came from people who
still work and on
>company letterhead, Tektronix might get an idea how their
scheming is
>received by potential customers. I do not think that Stan
and Dean should be
>asked to sign a 'collective letter'; they still know lot of
people at
>Tektronix and no strain should be put on those
relationships. Besides, in
>Tektronix's mind our group, as collectors, is of no
consequence, they are
>looking at people who would buy new equipment.
>
>
>Regards
>
>Miroslav Pokorni
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: david@slack.com
[mailto:david@slack.com]
> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2001 10:03
AM
> To: TekScopes@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [TekScopes] Re:
copyrights & CDROMs
>
> >PS . . . . . I have to confess that I
have made a copy of a
>page or two for
> >some desparate Tek equipment owners in
the past myself.
>One guy now offers a
> >CD ROM with 46 complete manuals on it,
which I consider
>orders of magnitude
> >worse than anything like this that I have
seen in the past.
>
> The manuals on that CDROM are *not* OEM
Tek or HP manuals.
>They are US
> Army manuals that are publically available
on an Army web
>site. I'm
> looking at one now (TM 11-6625-2759-14,
aka Tek 7L5 service
>manual) and it
> says "This manual contains copywrite [sic]
material
>reproduced by
> permission of the Tektronix Company." If
Tektronix objects
>to reproduction
> of this manual, it's really up to them to
complain to the
>Army. The guy
> selling the CDROM is not at fault.
>
> For what it's worth, my opinion on the
copyright issue is
>that the test
> equipment companies are happy with the
current ambiguous
>situation and
> don't have any reason to clarify it. They
also don't have
>an incentive
> to sue people for copyright violation
since the legal
>expenses would far
> exceed any possible damages they could
collect. Therefore,
>I predict the
> current situation will continue.
>
> In support of this, I have noticed that
even the largest
>test equipment
> dealers often supply photocopied manuals
with the used
>equipment they sell.
> Two examples are Electro Rent and Tucker
(Tucker also sells
>photocopied
> service manuals). This doesn't really
prove anything, but
>since they are
> franchised dealers for new equipment from
HP and Tek, it
>supports the idea
> that those companies must not be bothered
too much by the
>practice.
>
>
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>
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>
>
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>
>
>
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