Topics

2245 and 2445 - why do they both exist?

cmjones01
 

Reading a recent thread on a 2245 or 2246, I looked it up to see what
it was: a 4-channel 100MHz analog scope with features that appear
almost identical to the 150MHz 2445 (and 300MHz 2465). Even the front
panel controls are in the same layout, but the 2245 and 2445 are
clearly from different families. They were both available at the same
time, I think. With only a relatively small difference in bandwidth,
why do they both exist? Maybe this is a mystery only Tek marketing
people at the time knew the answer to.

Chris

John Gord
 

Chris,
No insider information here, but I have worked inside the 2245x, 2445x, and 2465x scopes. The 2445x and 2465x are nearly identical, with the 2445x hobbled to 150 or 200 MHz to provide a $4000 alternative to the $6000 2465x (1990 prices). The production costs for those two must have been almost identical, so marketing magic was clearly involved. The 2245 series uses a CRT that does not have distributed vertical deflection, so the frequency can't be pushed much above 100 MHz. The mechanical and electrical design is clearly different from the 24x5 scopes, and the $2000 price of the 2245A probably reflected both the lower costs and the marketing department desire to provide a range of choices.


--John Gord

Jerry Massengale <jmassen418@...>
 

sometimes a large buyer like uncle sugar or ibm can inspire a new model


On Wed, May 24, 2017 at 10:49 AM, Chris Jones chris@... [TekScopes]
<TekScopes@...> wrote:



Reading a recent thread on a 2245 or 2246, I looked it up to see what
it was: a 4-channel 100MHz analog scope with features that appear
almost identical to the 150MHz 2445 (and 300MHz 2465). Even the front
panel controls are in the same layout, but the 2245 and 2445 are
clearly from different families. They were both available at the same
time, I think. With only a relatively small difference in bandwidth,
why do they both exist? Maybe this is a mystery only Tek marketing
people at the time knew the answer to.

Chris


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

 

In both cases, they are lower bandwidth or lower functionality
versions of a higher end oscilloscope. Once the 100MHz 2247A with its
automatic voltage and time measurements and high bandwidth 300MHz 2465
are designed, it makes economic sense to provide a lower cost version
of each.

The 100MHz 2247A series has real time automatic gated measurements
while the 2465 series has higher bandwidth.

2245 - Only cursor measurements
2246 - Adds automatic gated voltage measurements
2247A - Adds automatic gated time/frequency measurements
2252 - Adds waveform printing

2445/2445A/2445B - 150 MHz
2455A/2455B - 250 MHz
2465/2465A/2465B - 300/350/400 MHz
2467/2467B - 350/400 MHz

My 2445B lacks the timer/counter option so I am not sure how that
works. Does it make continuous real time measurements like the 2247A
timer/counter?

On Wed, 24 May 2017 17:49:38 +0200, you wrote:

Reading a recent thread on a 2245 or 2246, I looked it up to see what
it was: a 4-channel 100MHz analog scope with features that appear
almost identical to the 150MHz 2445 (and 300MHz 2465). Even the front
panel controls are in the same layout, but the 2245 and 2445 are
clearly from different families. They were both available at the same
time, I think. With only a relatively small difference in bandwidth,
why do they both exist? Maybe this is a mystery only Tek marketing
people at the time knew the answer to.

Chris

ArtekManuals
 

At Motorola back in the heyday of 2 way radio. We practiced what we
called Price/Power marketing.

We either match the competition on Power out ( and features) and beat
them on price ..or..beat them on Power out (and features) and match the
competitions price. The concept was to own market share ( at Moto by
some estimate we owned 75% of the global 2-way business at our peak) .
It would seem that Tektronix did the same thing better specs at the same
price or the same specs at a lower price

Dave

manuals@...


On 5/24/2017 2:07 PM, David @DWH [TekScopes] wrote:

In both cases, they are lower bandwidth or lower functionality
versions of a higher end oscilloscope. Once the 100MHz 2247A with its
automatic voltage and time measurements and high bandwidth 300MHz 2465
are designed, it makes economic sense to provide a lower cost version
of each.

The 100MHz 2247A series has real time automatic gated measurements
while the 2465 series has higher bandwidth.

2245 - Only cursor measurements
2246 - Adds automatic gated voltage measurements
2247A - Adds automatic gated time/frequency measurements
2252 - Adds waveform printing

2445/2445A/2445B - 150 MHz
2455A/2455B - 250 MHz
2465/2465A/2465B - 300/350/400 MHz
2467/2467B - 350/400 MHz

My 2445B lacks the timer/counter option so I am not sure how that
works. Does it make continuous real time measurements like the 2247A
timer/counter?

On Wed, 24 May 2017 17:49:38 +0200, you wrote:

Reading a recent thread on a 2245 or 2246, I looked it up to see what
it was: a 4-channel 100MHz analog scope with features that appear
almost identical to the 150MHz 2445 (and 300MHz 2465). Even the front
panel controls are in the same layout, but the 2245 and 2445 are
clearly from different families. They were both available at the same
time, I think. With only a relatively small difference in bandwidth,
why do they both exist? Maybe this is a mystery only Tek marketing
people at the time knew the answer to.

Chris
--
Dave
Manuals@...
www.ArtekManuals.com

 

I suspect in the case with these oscilloscopes, some of the different
versions were produced to take advantage of price discrimination.

Some buyers would be unwilling to pay the price for the standard model
with the most features and performance so a "crippled" version is
produced at a lower price point. The lack of features or performance
prevents the lower price model from scavenging sales from the higher
price models and allows sales to customers who would not pay the
higher price anyway.

In some cases there really is a significant difference in cost between
the models but in others, there is little or no difference in cost
like when you have software enabled upgrades.

On Wed, 24 May 2017 14:26:02 -0400, you wrote:

At Motorola back in the heyday of 2 way radio. We practiced what we
called Price/Power marketing.

We either match the competition on Power out ( and features) and beat
them on price ..or..beat them on Power out (and features) and match the
competitions price. The concept was to own market share ( at Moto by
some estimate we owned 75% of the global 2-way business at our peak) .
It would seem that Tektronix did the same thing better specs at the same
price or the same specs at a lower price

Dave

manuals@...

On 5/24/2017 2:07 PM, David @DWH [TekScopes] wrote:

In both cases, they are lower bandwidth or lower functionality
versions of a higher end oscilloscope. Once the 100MHz 2247A with its
automatic voltage and time measurements and high bandwidth 300MHz 2465
are designed, it makes economic sense to provide a lower cost version
of each.

David DiGiacomo
 

On Wed, May 24, 2017 at 9:49 AM, Chris Jones <chris@...> wrote:
Reading a recent thread on a 2245 or 2246, I looked it up to see what
it was: a 4-channel 100MHz analog scope with features that appear
almost identical to the 150MHz 2445 (and 300MHz 2465). Even the front
panel controls are in the same layout, but the 2245 and 2445 are
clearly from different families. They were both available at the same
time, I think. With only a relatively small difference in bandwidth,
why do they both exist?
The 224x scopes came from the Service Instruments Division, and the
2445 came from the Lab Scopes Division. From what I understand, they
might as well have been 2 separate companies.

Michael A. Terrell
 

Tektronix advertised the low end scopes in electronics hobby magazines like Radio-Electronics, and to the TV service shops.

-----Original Message-----
From: "Jerry Massengale jmassen418@... [TekScopes]" <TekScopes@...>
Sent: May 24, 2017 2:04 PM
To: TekScopes@...
Subject: Re: [TekScopes] 2245 and 2445 - why do they both exist?

sometimes a large buyer like uncle sugar or ibm can inspire a new model


On Wed, May 24, 2017 at 10:49 AM, Chris Jones chris@... [TekScopes]
<TekScopes@...> wrote:



Reading a recent thread on a 2245 or 2246, I looked it up to see what
it was: a 4-channel 100MHz analog scope with features that appear
almost identical to the 150MHz 2445 (and 300MHz 2465). Even the front
panel controls are in the same layout, but the 2245 and 2445 are
clearly from different families. They were both available at the same
time, I think. With only a relatively small difference in bandwidth,
why do they both exist? Maybe this is a mystery only Tek marketing
people at the time knew the answer to.

Chris




Michael A. Terrell

mosaicmerc
 

I recall drooling over the regular Tektronix O'scope adverts on page 6 or 7 in Radio Electronics when I was doing my BSc. Eng. in the 80's. I started reading them when I was 15.

I could never afford them, but by 50 I had acquired a 2465A and 2 parts hulks and intend to keep it alive forever, just because I wanted it.....It took a long time to scratch that itch.

Ancel

Michael A. Terrell
 

I was issued a 2465A at Microdyne. A week later, one of the design engineers swiped it for his bench, so I got the 246B that he was supposed to have. I don't think that he ever figured it out. :)

-----Original Message-----
From: "AncelB mosaicmerc@... [TekScopes]" <TekScopes@...>
Sent: May 25, 2017 12:10 AM
To: TekScopes@...
Subject: [TekScopes] Re: 2245 and 2445 - why do they both exist?

I recall drooling over the regular Tektronix O'scope adverts on page 6
or 7 in Radio Electronics when I was doing my BSc. Eng. in the 80's. I
started reading them when I was 15.

I could never afford them, but by 50 I had acquired a 2465A and 2 parts
hulks and intend to keep it alive forever, just because I wanted
it.....It took a long time to scratch that itch.

Ancel

Michael A. Terrell

cmjones01
 

On 24 May 2017 9:45 p.m., "David DiGiacomo telists@... [TekScopes]" <
TekScopes@...> wrote:



On Wed, May 24, 2017 at 9:49 AM, Chris Jones <chris@...> wrote:
Reading a recent thread on a 2245 or 2246, I looked it up to see what
it was: a 4-channel 100MHz analog scope with features that appear
almost identical to the 150MHz 2445 (and 300MHz 2465). Even the front
panel controls are in the same layout, but the 2245 and 2445 are
clearly from different families. They were both available at the same
time, I think. With only a relatively small difference in bandwidth,
why do they both exist?
The 224x scopes came from the Service Instruments Division, and the
2445 came from the Lab Scopes Division. From what I understand, they
might as well have been 2 separate companies.


Thanks to all for the thoughts. This one I find particularly revealing.
Presumably the two divisions were selling to different customers, so the
lab customers weren't too upset that after buying a 2445 for $4000 they
could have got almost exactly the same functionality, albeit with a small
loss of bandwidth, by buying a 2245 for $2000 from the service division.

I'm very familiar with the 24xx series but have only used very basic models
of the 22xx series so I don't know exactly how the 2245 and 2445 compare,
of course.

Chris

Szabolcs Szigeti
 

Hi,

I'm glad that I'm not the only crazy person here :-)
I did the same with a 2440. When i was a university student, I built myself a 1Mhz scope (which never got a proper case, so one needed a long screwdriver to reach the trig polarity switch. Then I had a chance to play and drool over a 2440, which was a couple of years old model back then. I immediately realized that it makes no sense anymore to build scopes at home.
So when last year I saw one on aBay for a low low price (PSU wouldn't start, only needed new caps and also new NVRAM), it was a no brainer to hit the buy button. Fortunately overseas shipping usually cost more that what these are sold for, so I still do not have a huge pile of scopes at home.

Szabolcs

 

I felt the same way about the Tektronix 2232. It is the oscilloscope
I have always and now I have it. I rule!

On 25 May 2017 14:43:07 +0000, you wrote:

Hi,

I'm glad that I'm not the only crazy person here :-)
I did the same with a 2440. When i was a university student, I built myself a 1Mhz scope (which never got a proper case, so one needed a long screwdriver to reach the trig polarity switch. Then I had a chance to play and drool over a 2440, which was a couple of years old model back then. I immediately realized that it makes no sense anymore to build scopes at home.
So when last year I saw one on aBay for a low low price (PSU wouldn't start, only needed new caps and also new NVRAM), it was a no brainer to hit the buy button. Fortunately overseas shipping usually cost more that what these are sold for, so I still do not have a huge pile of scopes at home.

Szabolcs

Chuck Harris
 

Ah, yes...

The 22XX series is a much simplified, and much lower
performance, lower cost, series of scopes than the
24XX family.

A long time ago, I bought my 2465 new from Tektronix.
I used it in my EE consulting work, and often brought it
to customer sites. One customer liked it so much that
I worried I wouldn't get it back one day... but they
didn't like the price. They were happily using a 545B,
but seeing/using my flashy new 2465, the decided that
they wanted a more portable upgrade.

Based on specifications and tektronix's reputation,
I suggested that they buy a 2236, which at the time
was the top of the line for the 22XX series, and they
did.

For the next several months, we played "which scope is
reading right" with our three scopes.

The 545B was always better for anything with power
line noise rejection issues. Its big heavy 60Hz
power shielded transformer wouldn't let anything of
that sort into the scope. The 2465 was a visibly a
little worse than the 545B, but not too bad. The 2236
was absolutely blindsided by power line noise. It was
as if it was more sensitive to that port than the
probe inputs. If we wanted to use it around switching
supplies of that era, we had to plug it into a different
power line branch circuit. We learned to like the
high isolation tripp-lite surge protector/isolators.

The 2465 was king of the hill for high frequency,
but low repetition waveforms. It's high beam voltage
put down a nice bright trace. The 545B was good too,
but at 33MHz bandwidth, it couldn't see some glitches.
The 2236 was blind as a bat. It couldn't even display
in a dim room traces that showed up easily on the
2465 and 545B.

The 2236 went back to tektronix for repair, because
surely it must have been broken, but they could find
nothing amiss, and returned it. My customer wanted
to return the scope, but tektronix wasn't into that
idea.

In this day of cheap high end scopes I have more than
a little trouble understanding why anyone would settle
for the 22XX series.

-Chuck Harris




Chris Jones chris@... [TekScopes] wrote:

On 24 May 2017 9:45 p.m., "David DiGiacomo telists@... [TekScopes]" <
TekScopes@...> wrote:



On Wed, May 24, 2017 at 9:49 AM, Chris Jones <chris@...> wrote:
Reading a recent thread on a 2245 or 2246, I looked it up to see what
it was: a 4-channel 100MHz analog scope with features that appear
almost identical to the 150MHz 2445 (and 300MHz 2465). Even the front
panel controls are in the same layout, but the 2245 and 2445 are
clearly from different families. They were both available at the same
time, I think. With only a relatively small difference in bandwidth,
why do they both exist?
The 224x scopes came from the Service Instruments Division, and the
2445 came from the Lab Scopes Division. From what I understand, they
might as well have been 2 separate companies.


Thanks to all for the thoughts. This one I find particularly revealing.
Presumably the two divisions were selling to different customers, so the
lab customers weren't too upset that after buying a 2445 for $4000 they
could have got almost exactly the same functionality, albeit with a small
loss of bandwidth, by buying a 2245 for $2000 from the service division.

I'm very familiar with the 24xx series but have only used very basic models
of the 22xx series so I don't know exactly how the 2245 and 2445 compare,
of course.

Chris

Ed Breya
 

Continuing on what Chuck said, the 2200 series was definitely lower-end in performance, construction, and cost than the flagship 2400 line. The purpose was to shore up the bottom-end against the onslaught of cheap, but ever-improving scopes from "Japan, Inc." as it was called. Remember, this was the 1980s, and everything from cars to scopes was under competitive pressure from below. Nowadays, China and South Korea are the low-end competitive powerhouses that Japan was back then.

Ed

cmjones01
 

On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 5:47 PM, Chuck Harris cfharris@...
[TekScopes] <TekScopes@...> wrote:



The 2465 was king of the hill for high frequency,
but low repetition waveforms. It's high beam voltage
put down a nice bright trace. The 545B was good too,
but at 33MHz bandwidth, it couldn't see some glitches.
The 2236 was blind as a bat. It couldn't even display
in a dim room traces that showed up easily on the
2465 and 545B.
Well, that explains it. The extra $ for the 24xx series is worth it for the
more sophisticated CRT and generally higher standard of engineering. For
that you get better visibility of low repetition rate signals, better noise
rejection, and probably better geometry and long-term stability. I went
straight from a 535A to a 2465 and found that the 2465 was pretty much like
the 535A but improved in every respect, except perhaps the ultimate
fineness of the trace. I guess that's comparing a good lab scope of the
early 1960s to a good lab scope of the mid 1980s, so it's a fair comparison.

Speaking of stability, I have two 2465s, a 2465A and a 2430A, and have
owned all of them for about ten years. They're all in regular use. The only
time I've had to adjust anything was when I replaced U800 in one of the
2465s. Other than that I've never had to make any adjustments to keep them
working within spec. That's pretty impressive for equipment which is now 30
years old or more. They Just Work. Actually, the waveform storage NVRAM
battery has given up in the 2430A but I just cancel the self-test error and
get on with using it - it makes no difference to me in normal use.

A friend gave me a 2215 some time ago which worked, but I found it pretty
underwhelming and donated it to a local university who were very happy to
have it.

Chris

Joseph Rooney
 

I have a hazy recollection the 2246(5) continued a company wide move towards off the shelf components rather than rely on unique components, whether made inside Tek or custom built by an outside vendor. That being said, I like the 224X series (100mhz bw) over the 2445 (150 mhz bw) as I thought the trace intensity was brighter. Also, that 224X line was slightly altered for sales into the military.

Aggravating what was a great product were fan motors that would halt and the power supply would overheat. And then the aggravation with the colossal 152-0400-00 rectifier. I think there were almost 25 of them used throughout each instrument.


The 2247A, I think was the final edition of that series.


Joe Rooney
Santa Cruz now

David DiGiacomo
 

On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 9:47 AM, Chuck Harris <cfharris@...> wrote:

The 22XX series is a much simplified, and much lower
performance, lower cost, series of scopes than the
24XX family.
It seems odd to judge the whole 22xx line based on the early, low end
2235. There was a good reason that it was quickly replaced by the
2235A.

The 2246 family is a very different design.

Chuck Harris
 

Perhaps, but my experience with the 2236 was
bad enough that I didn't want to repeat it by
further self flagellation.

-Chuck Harris

David DiGiacomo telists@... [TekScopes] wrote:

On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 9:47 AM, Chuck Harris <cfharris@...> wrote:

The 22XX series is a much simplified, and much lower
performance, lower cost, series of scopes than the
24XX family.
It seems odd to judge the whole 22xx line based on the early, low end
2235. There was a good reason that it was quickly replaced by the
2235A.

The 2246 family is a very different design.

 

On Thu, 25 May 2017 19:46:33 +0200, you wrote:

On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 5:47 PM, Chuck Harris cfharris@...
[TekScopes] <TekScopes@...> wrote:

The 2465 was king of the hill for high frequency,
but low repetition waveforms. It's high beam voltage
put down a nice bright trace. The 545B was good too,
but at 33MHz bandwidth, it couldn't see some glitches.
The 2236 was blind as a bat. It couldn't even display
in a dim room traces that showed up easily on the
2465 and 545B.
Well, that explains it. The extra $ for the 24xx series is worth it for the
more sophisticated CRT and generally higher standard of engineering. For
that you get better visibility of low repetition rate signals, better noise
rejection, and probably better geometry and long-term stability. I went
straight from a 535A to a 2465 and found that the 2465 was pretty much like
the 535A but improved in every respect, except perhaps the ultimate
fineness of the trace. I guess that's comparing a good lab scope of the
early 1960s to a good lab scope of the mid 1980s, so it's a fair comparison.
Except for the CRT and bandwidth, there is a big difference between
the 2-channel 22xx oscilloscopes like the 2236 and the 4-channel 22xx
oscilloscopes like the 2245. The later are much more sophisticated
and in some cases even more so than the analog 24xx models.

And I am not even sure about the CRT. My 2246 and 2247A seem much
brighter than my 2-channel models and more so even than my 2445B but
maybe this is just do to the number of hours on each CRT. The 24xx
models *should* have much brighter and sharper CRTs when only
considering their higher acceleration voltage but they use a very
different CRT design to get enough deflection to support 400MHz of
bandwidth.

A friend gave me a 2215 some time ago which worked, but I found it pretty
underwhelming and donated it to a local university who were very happy to
have it.

Chris
That 2215 is not only the first of the 2-channel 22xx designs with
known issues but it is also much older.