Washing Oscilloscopes


Peter M. Munro <pmmunro@...>
 

My interest in Tektronix oscilloscopes goes back to the 1960s when I was a very young trainee with the BBC. As a teenager I had attempted to build oscilloscopes with limited success and most of the comercial ones I had had seen had the old free running timebase rather than a proper triggered one. On the basic course at the BBC training school we still used ancient Cossor 1035 and, occassionally the "improved" 1049, neither much advanced on 2nd World War technology.

When we were shown Tek. 535s and 545 it was like something from another world. We were told that it was possible to buy a very respectable new car for the price of one of those. On a more advanced course we eventually got to use the Tek. scopes quite freely and I remember experimenting with the dual timebase and Z-mod and being able to display a television picture on the 'scope screen; I can't remeber exactly how it was done.

About 15 years ago I bought a surplus 535A, made in Guernsey, Channel Islands, Serial No. 101303. I believe it would have been made about 1960. I bought it from the original owner, a local broadcast television company whom I worked for at the time - a rather late fulfilllment of what had once seemed an impossible dream. It always seemed to me that the 500 series traces were much sharper than the 465s we were then using.

Now the question, if your still with me. Back in the 1960s, an older BBC colleague told me that whenever a Tek. 'scope was recieved at the agents or the factory for service, the first part of the procedure was to give it a bath. Certain parts, I think there were cardboard sleeves fitted to some of the electolytic capacitors, were removed and then the whole instrument was completely immersed in hot soapy water. I imagine it was then rinsed in clean water and finally in deionised water before being warm-air dryed.

I have often used the same washing technique on very dirty printed circuit boards from various types of equipment, always successfully though not always with the knowledge of the supervisor concerned. It has solved quite a few recurrent problems. As pcbs are washed in initial production this seems appropriate but many people hold fast to the rule that electricity and water should never be mixed in any circumstances.

Can anyone confirm that this technique was used by Tektronix and offer any comments on the practice? I would be interested to know who first had the courage to try it and in what circumstances. It seems to me to be typical American enterprise which we in the UK are sometime too timid to try.

Peter M. Munro

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marc ellis <mfellis@...>
 

I have heard of this technique being used on filthy taxi and police car
mobile radios by individuals who wanted to convert them to ham radio use. I
belive the rigs were actually put through a dishwasher and then dried in the
kitchen oven.

Not sure if a scope would need different preparation for washing than these
radios, but if there is interest, I can try to see if I still have a
description of the process.

Marc Ellis

hams who wanted to convert them for u----- Original Message -----
From: Peter M. Munro <pmmunro@hotmail.com>
To: <TekScopes@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2001 1:52 PM
Subject: [TekScopes] Washing Oscilloscopes


My interest in Tektronix oscilloscopes goes back to the 1960s when I was a
very young trainee with the BBC. As a teenager I had attempted to build
oscilloscopes with limited success and most of the comercial ones I had
had
seen had the old free running timebase rather than a proper triggered one.
On the basic course at the BBC training school we still used ancient
Cossor
1035 and, occassionally the "improved" 1049, neither much advanced on 2nd
World War technology.

When we were shown Tek. 535s and 545 it was like something from another
world. We were told that it was possible to buy a very respectable new car
for the price of one of those. On a more advanced course we eventually got
to use the Tek. scopes quite freely and I remember experimenting with the
dual timebase and Z-mod and being able to display a television picture on
the 'scope screen; I can't remeber exactly how it was done.

About 15 years ago I bought a surplus 535A, made in Guernsey, Channel
Islands, Serial No. 101303. I believe it would have been made about 1960.
I
bought it from the original owner, a local broadcast television company
whom
I worked for at the time - a rather late fulfilllment of what had once
seemed an impossible dream. It always seemed to me that the 500 series
traces were much sharper than the 465s we were then using.

Now the question, if your still with me. Back in the 1960s, an older BBC
colleague told me that whenever a Tek. 'scope was recieved at the agents
or
the factory for service, the first part of the procedure was to give it a
bath. Certain parts, I think there were cardboard sleeves fitted to some
of
the electolytic capacitors, were removed and then the whole instrument was
completely immersed in hot soapy water. I imagine it was then rinsed in
clean water and finally in deionised water before being warm-air dryed.

I have often used the same washing technique on very dirty printed circuit
boards from various types of equipment, always successfully though not
always with the knowledge of the supervisor concerned. It has solved quite
a
few recurrent problems. As pcbs are washed in initial production this
seems
appropriate but many people hold fast to the rule that electricity and
water
should never be mixed in any circumstances.

Can anyone confirm that this technique was used by Tektronix and offer any
comments on the practice? I would be interested to know who first had the
courage to try it and in what circumstances. It seems to me to be typical
American enterprise which we in the UK are sometime too timid to try.

Peter M. Munro

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Michael Dunn <mdunn@...>
 

Great story, but I have some doubts about the washing bit. Most electronic parts and assemblies do not have a problem with water, but I can't imagine, for example, a fan being too happy about being dishwashed! Perhaps if it's done quickly enough.

Also, many mechanical-electrical parts will have problems. Switches, pots, and the like, that are partly sealed, will become full of water, and unless you bake them for a day or five, the water will stay! Parts that are more open-frame would probably need re-lubrication. And of course, there are some old components (eg lytics) with paper covers.

When I wash the stuff *I* manufacture, it's done before switches and panel pots are mounted, but everything else is fine. Even the trimpots.

p.s., You'd need a pretty big dishwasher to handle most Teks! Sounds like a garden hose job.

p.p.s., How heat-sensitive is mu-metal?


-----------------------------------------------------------------
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Cantares | Self-Amplified Speakers, Test Equipment
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Waterloo, Ont. | (519) 744-9395 (fax: 744-7129)
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Phil (VA3UX) <phil@...>
 

Stan Griffiths can give you an authoritative reply on this but I'll chime-in until he answers. I also read the replies, one where doubt was expressed over washing a scope.

Stan's book contains a detailed procedure on washing an old scope. The procedure is essentially what you have outlined : protecting certain parts, removing others, then drenching/blasting/scrubbing the entire thing with D.I. water and detergent. Lots of scrubbing and suds, everything soaked inside and out, final rinse with D.I. water followed by blowing out as much "free water" as possible with compressed air. The final ingredient is a thorough dry-out in an oven for 24 to 48 hours at 110 or 120 degrees F, with the hot air circulating inside the oven. It's all covered in the first chapter of his book. For home use I think Stan used an old refrigerator as an oven, with a muffin fan for circulating air, some sort of simple heat source and a thermostat. I recall also that a small vent was cut into the fridge so that mositure laden air could escape, and another hole allowed fresh air in to replace the escaping air. Stan has the first hand experience not me, but the procedure has been done many times (hundreds ?) with complete success.

My initial reaction to learning about this procedure was that it seemed inconceivable that you would subject ANY electronic device to such a procedure and expect it to work when it was over. Stan and I spoke about this on the phone once and I learned that they ("Tek") did this all the time. I've since learned that the U.S. military electronic service depots used to do the same thing with field radios and such (such as the Collins R-390A, etc) when they came in for service.

There you have it. Consult Stan for further details.

Phil

At 06:52 PM 10/6/2001 +0000, you wrote:


Now the question, if your still with me. Back in the 1960s, an older BBC
colleague told me that whenever a Tek. 'scope was recieved at the agents or
the factory for service, the first part of the procedure was to give it a
bath. Certain parts, I think there were cardboard sleeves fitted to some of
the electolytic capacitors, were removed and then the whole instrument was
completely immersed in hot soapy water. I imagine it was then rinsed in
clean water and finally in deionised water before being warm-air dryed.

I have often used the same washing technique on very dirty printed circuit
boards from various types of equipment, always successfully though not
always with the knowledge of the supervisor concerned. It has solved quite a
few recurrent problems. As pcbs are washed in initial production this seems
appropriate but many people hold fast to the rule that electricity and water
should never be mixed in any circumstances.

Can anyone confirm that this technique was used by Tektronix and offer any
comments on the practice? I would be interested to know who first had the
courage to try it and in what circumstances. It seems to me to be typical
American enterprise which we in the UK are sometime too timid to try.

Peter M. Munro

_________________________________________________________________
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Jim Nunn <jimnunn0000@...>
 

I used to work for a large company that repairs industrial electronics
(PLC's, DC motor controls, AC Inverters) our technicians would always wash
the equipment before repair. All we used was a big sink and lots of simple
green detergent and we dried equipment by setting out in the sun. It is a
little unnerving to see a 1000HP (7500Kw) DC drive sitting in a sink getting
hosed off. I might add that the washing occasionally cured an interment
drive that had been completely tested with out finding the problem.

After picking up a 535a at a yard sale for a $1 that looked like it had sat
in a garage for 20 years collecting dust my thought was what could I loose
if I gave it a bath. I just used simple green detergent and lots of water
and air-dried the scope and I did not attempt to power it up for a week.
After the wash it was a pleasure to work on the scope three years later it's
still working great.


Jim Nunn
jimnunn0000@earthlink.net


Robert Fincher <robfincher2001@...>
 

Peter,
I can also vouch for the water washing method for
cleaning old Tek scopes. I and a friend here in
Melbourne, have brought a number of grotty old scopes
to pristine condition using this technique. Rather
than setting up an oven for the drying operation, we
have simply put the scopes out in the sun - a day's
exposure in a warm no-too-humid environment seems to
do the job. Occasionally, we need to clean small parts
without the need for cleaning the whole scope. Tek's
fluted knobs for example look brand new after a cycle
through the dishwasher. So, proceed with sensible
confidence.
Rob Fincher VK3BRF
--- "Peter M. Munro" <pmmunro@hotmail.com> wrote:
<HR>
<html><body>
<tt>
My interest in Tektronix oscilloscopes goes back to
the 1960s when I was a <BR>
very young trainee with the BBC. As a teenager I had
attempted to build <BR>
oscilloscopes with limited success and most of the
comercial ones I had had <BR>
seen had the old free running timebase rather than a
proper triggered one. <BR>
On the basic course at the BBC training school we
still used ancient Cossor <BR>
1035 and, occassionally the "improved" 1049,
neither much advanced on 2nd <BR>
World War technology.<BR>
<BR>
When we were shown Tek. 535s and 545 it was like
something from another <BR>
world. We were told that it was possible to buy a very
respectable new car <BR>
for the price of one of those. On a more advanced
course we eventually got <BR>
to use the Tek. scopes quite freely and I remember
experimenting with the <BR>
dual timebase and Z-mod and being able to display a
television picture on <BR>
the 'scope screen; I can't remeber exactly how it was
done.<BR>
<BR>
About 15 years ago I bought a surplus 535A, made in
Guernsey, Channel <BR>
Islands, Serial No. 101303. I believe it would have
been made about 1960. I <BR>
bought it from the original owner, a local broadcast
television company whom <BR>
I worked for at the time - a rather late fulfilllment
of what had once <BR>
seemed an impossible dream. It always seemed to me
that the 500 series <BR>
traces were much sharper than the 465s we were then
using.<BR>
<BR>
Now the question, if your still with me. Back in the
1960s, an older BBC <BR>
colleague told me that whenever a Tek. 'scope was
recieved at the agents or <BR>
the factory for service, the first part of the
procedure was to give it a <BR>
bath. Certain parts, I think there were cardboard
sleeves fitted to some of <BR>
the electolytic capacitors, were removed and then the
whole instrument was <BR>
completely immersed in hot soapy water. I imagine it
was then rinsed in <BR>
clean water and finally in deionised water before
being warm-air dryed.<BR>
<BR>
I have often used the same washing technique on very
dirty printed circuit <BR>
boards from various types of equipment, always
successfully though not <BR>
always with the knowledge of the supervisor concerned.
It has solved quite a <BR>
few recurrent problems. As pcbs are washed in initial
production this seems <BR>
appropriate but many people hold fast to the rule that
electricity and water <BR>
should never be mixed in any circumstances.<BR>
<BR>
Can anyone confirm that this technique was used by
Tektronix and offer any <BR>
comments on the practice? I would be interested to
know who first had the <BR>
courage to try it and in what circumstances. It seems
to me to be typical <BR>
American enterprise which we in the UK are sometime
too timid to try.<BR>
<BR>
Peter M. Munro<BR>
<BR>
_________________________________________________________________<BR>
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at <a
href="http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp">http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp</a><BR>
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Stan or Patricia Griffiths <w7ni@...>
 

Hi Peter,

The most vulnerable part in the scope is the power transformer. You definitely
do NOT want to immerse that part. The most common failure is breakdown of the
CRT filament winding to ground on the power transformer due to the fact that it
is usually elevated to the CRT cathode potential, which, in a 535 or 535A is
-1350 volts DC. I use a spray gun with a long nozzle and Simple Green mixed
about 10 to 1 with water for the major wash. I spray everything except I avoid
spraying directly into the bottom of the transformer where the wires emerge. If
your water is loaded with impurities like metal ions, just a little of that
water sprayed into the transformer can cause it to fail. If in doubt, either
use dionized water or remove the power transformer and reinstall it after you
are through washing the scope. Hope this helps some . . .

Stan
w7ni@easystreet.com

Peter M. Munro wrote:

My interest in Tektronix oscilloscopes goes back to the 1960s when I was a
very young trainee with the BBC. As a teenager I had attempted to build
oscilloscopes with limited success and most of the comercial ones I had had
seen had the old free running timebase rather than a proper triggered one.
On the basic course at the BBC training school we still used ancient Cossor
1035 and, occassionally the "improved" 1049, neither much advanced on 2nd
World War technology.

When we were shown Tek. 535s and 545 it was like something from another
world. We were told that it was possible to buy a very respectable new car
for the price of one of those. On a more advanced course we eventually got
to use the Tek. scopes quite freely and I remember experimenting with the
dual timebase and Z-mod and being able to display a television picture on
the 'scope screen; I can't remeber exactly how it was done.

About 15 years ago I bought a surplus 535A, made in Guernsey, Channel
Islands, Serial No. 101303. I believe it would have been made about 1960. I
bought it from the original owner, a local broadcast television company whom
I worked for at the time - a rather late fulfilllment of what had once
seemed an impossible dream. It always seemed to me that the 500 series
traces were much sharper than the 465s we were then using.

Now the question, if your still with me. Back in the 1960s, an older BBC
colleague told me that whenever a Tek. 'scope was recieved at the agents or
the factory for service, the first part of the procedure was to give it a
bath. Certain parts, I think there were cardboard sleeves fitted to some of
the electolytic capacitors, were removed and then the whole instrument was
completely immersed in hot soapy water. I imagine it was then rinsed in
clean water and finally in deionised water before being warm-air dryed.

I have often used the same washing technique on very dirty printed circuit
boards from various types of equipment, always successfully though not
always with the knowledge of the supervisor concerned. It has solved quite a
few recurrent problems. As pcbs are washed in initial production this seems
appropriate but many people hold fast to the rule that electricity and water
should never be mixed in any circumstances.

Can anyone confirm that this technique was used by Tektronix and offer any
comments on the practice? I would be interested to know who first had the
courage to try it and in what circumstances. It seems to me to be typical
American enterprise which we in the UK are sometime too timid to try.

Peter M. Munro

_________________________________________________________________
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dhuster@...
 

To the best of my knowledge, every Tektronix Service Center,
especially those at the District level, had and regularly used
washing facilitites. Nearly every 500-series that came in and any
other model (with the exception of Telequipment scopes which had an
allergy to water) that came in dirty, was washed before it ever hit
the technician's bench. In Dallas, we had one employee who was the
shipping/receiving/washing/run-here-run-there clerk.

The scope was put on a lazy Susan, the outside covers and any plug-
ins removed, inside shields removed (HV, attenuators, etc.) and then
the scope was washed with a pressure wand. This was the air-driven
type running at around 40 psi which siphoned the detergent (venturi
effect) from the detergent container. The detergent used was called
Kelite (I think that's the spelling and it's pronounced KEY-light).
I do believe that I remember reading in some Tek manuals about
washing the scope using Kelite.

Anyway, after a good washing to get off all the grime, the scope was
well-rinsed in clear tap water and then excess water blown out with
low-pressure air. Isopropyl alcolol was squirted onto the newer cam-
style attenuator switches to displace any remaining water and the
scope was put into a drying oven where it remained with recirculating
air at around 150° or so for two or three days. The scope was pulled
out (oooh, oooh, ow, ow, ouch, forgot the pot holders!), cooled, all
covers put back on and sent to the tech. The first thing the tech
did was lubricate the fan motor.

Most filthy scopes came out with the insides looking brand-new. The
drying process took care of water in any LV or HV transformers or
other confined spaces. I never saw a Tek scope that was harmed by
the process. It was a corporately-sanctioned, routine cleaning
procedure. I've washed several myself when I was at the Dallas SC
when the regular wash tech was out and a scope had to be run through
a cleaning first.

Dean


Dean


Miroslav Pokorni <mpokorni@...>
 

I just could not resist not to make a comment on Peter's statement: 'When we
were shown Tek. 535s and 545 it was like something from another World'.

When I was in college, I think it was third year, there was a rumor at the
school that one of professors was doing some consulting work and he got a
Tektronix scope; back in Europe relations between students and professors
were a bit stand-offish and this particular professor was kind of a stuffed
shirt. It took me few days to muster the courage and find an opportunity and
I knocked on the office door of esteemed professor and explained purpose of
my visit. I must have taken him by surprise, he showed me the scope and even
let me turn controls. The scope was one of 7000 series, a narrow job,
probably 7203 (if there was such a thing); the year was 1967 or so. Year and
half after that event I started to work and lab had 545As, a 551 and some
'low life' (without dual base) 500 series.

Regards

Miroslav Pokorni

-----Original Message-----
From: Peter M. Munro [mailto:pmmunro@hotmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2001 11:52 AM
To: TekScopes@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [TekScopes] Washing Oscilloscopes

My interest in Tektronix oscilloscopes goes back to the
1960s when I was a
very young trainee with the BBC. As a teenager I had
attempted to build
oscilloscopes with limited success and most of the comercial
ones I had had
seen had the old free running timebase rather than a proper
triggered one.
On the basic course at the BBC training school we still used
ancient Cossor
1035 and, occassionally the "improved" 1049, neither much
advanced on 2nd
World War technology.

When we were shown Tek. 535s and 545 it was like something
from another
world. We were told that it was possible to buy a very
respectable new car
for the price of one of those. On a more advanced course we
eventually got
to use the Tek. scopes quite freely and I remember
experimenting with the
dual timebase and Z-mod and being able to display a
television picture on
the 'scope screen; I can't remeber exactly how it was done.

About 15 years ago I bought a surplus 535A, made in
Guernsey, Channel
Islands, Serial No. 101303. I believe it would have been
made about 1960. I
bought it from the original owner, a local broadcast
television company whom
I worked for at the time - a rather late fulfilllment of
what had once
seemed an impossible dream. It always seemed to me that the
500 series
traces were much sharper than the 465s we were then using.

Now the question, if your still with me. Back in the 1960s,
an older BBC
colleague told me that whenever a Tek. 'scope was recieved
at the agents or
the factory for service, the first part of the procedure was
to give it a
bath. Certain parts, I think there were cardboard sleeves
fitted to some of
the electolytic capacitors, were removed and then the whole
instrument was
completely immersed in hot soapy water. I imagine it was
then rinsed in
clean water and finally in deionised water before being
warm-air dryed.

I have often used the same washing technique on very dirty
printed circuit
boards from various types of equipment, always successfully
though not
always with the knowledge of the supervisor concerned. It
has solved quite a
few recurrent problems. As pcbs are washed in initial
production this seems
appropriate but many people hold fast to the rule that
electricity and water
should never be mixed in any circumstances.

Can anyone confirm that this technique was used by Tektronix
and offer any
comments on the practice? I would be interested to know who
first had the
courage to try it and in what circumstances. It seems to me
to be typical
American enterprise which we in the UK are sometime too
timid to try.

Peter M. Munro


_________________________________________________________________
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Miroslav Pokorni <mpokorni@...>
 

I do not think that you need to wary about mu-metal, but transformers might
pose a problem. As for size of dishwasher, I learned recently that most of
them have upper rack removable, what improves capacity. However, dishwashing
detergent is a definite no-no; there is a lot of chlorine in it and chlorine
does a job even on bare aluminum, not to mention magnet wire and contacts.

Regards

Miroslav Pokorni

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Dunn [mailto:mdunn@cantares.on.ca]
Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2001 2:14 PM
To: TekScopes@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [TekScopes] Washing Oscilloscopes

Great story, but I have some doubts about the washing
bit. Most
electronic parts and assemblies do not have a problem with
water, but
I can't imagine, for example, a fan being too happy about
being
dishwashed! Perhaps if it's done quickly enough.

Also, many mechanical-electrical parts will have
problems.
Switches, pots, and the like, that are partly sealed, will
become
full of water, and unless you bake them for a day or five,
the water
will stay! Parts that are more open-frame would probably
need
re-lubrication. And of course, there are some old
components (eg
lytics) with paper covers.

When I wash the stuff *I* manufacture, it's done before
switches
and panel pots are mounted, but everything else is fine.
Even the
trimpots.

p.s., You'd need a pretty big dishwasher to handle most
Teks!
Sounds like a garden hose job.

p.p.s., How heat-sensitive is mu-metal?



-----------------------------------------------------------------
Michael Dunn | Surround Sound Decoder & Stereo Enhancer
Cantares | Self-Amplified Speakers, Test Equipment
74 George St. | Ambisonic Surround Sound CDs and
Recording
Waterloo, Ont. | (519) 744-9395 (fax: 744-7129)
N2J 1K7 | mdunn@cantares.on.ca
Canada | http://www.cantares.on.ca/

-----------------------------------------------------------------

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Stan or Patricia Griffiths <w7ni@...>
 

Miroslav Pokorni wrote:

I just could not resist not to make a comment on Peter's statement: 'When we
were shown Tek. 535s and 545 it was like something from another World'.

When I was in college, I think it was third year, there was a rumor at the
school that one of professors was doing some consulting work and he got a
Tektronix scope; back in Europe relations between students and professors
were a bit stand-offish and this particular professor was kind of a stuffed
shirt. It took me few days to muster the courage and find an opportunity and
I knocked on the office door of esteemed professor and explained purpose of
my visit. I must have taken him by surprise, he showed me the scope and even
let me turn controls. The scope was one of 7000 series, a narrow job,
probably 7203 (if there was such a thing); the year was 1967 or so. Year and
half after that event I started to work and lab had 545As, a 551 and some
'low life' (without dual base) 500 series.

Regards

Miroslav Pokorni
This is not a criticsm, Miroslav. I just want to help set the record straight.
The first 7000 series scopes were introduced about late 1969 and the first
demonstrators in the US were available about mid-1970. I doubt there could have
been any earlier ones in Europe . . .

The model number 7203 was never used but it might have been a 7503 which was a
3-hole, non-storage, 100 MHz mainframe without a high efficiency power supply,
which means it was HEAVY. I know . . . I was a Sales Engineer when the 7000
series was introduced and I now own two 7503's . . .

Stan
w7ni@easystreet.com


Miroslav Pokorni <mpokorni@...>
 

Stan,

Not to wary, I am too old to be jumpy about criticism.

I guess, I made up that part number 7203. I knew it had to be well before
7603, but I guess that was even before 7000's time. I am really curious what
model that could have been. As I recall image of that scope, it was a three
hole job, no doubt, it was seating on a narrow cart and had some of those
square, illuminated keys; I am not sure if they were small, transparent,
clear acrylic as on 7000 series, but they were illuminated. Could that have
been a 5000 series?

On the other note, I have a question on washing. In your book you described
a 'low cost' wash set up and mention spray gun with siphon suction for
water. I looked around and it was pretty hard to locate such a beast. The
one that I found at Grainger costs over $50 and requires 4 CFM of air, what
translates to another $200 for a new compressor; one that I have is only 2
CFM. Shelling out $250 is pretty steep price for washing a single PS503A.
Can you be more specific about spray gun that you have: make, model, CFM,
etc.

As an alternate solution, what do you think of using straight water jet. I
was thinking of using air to pressurize a 1 gallon polyethylene spray tank
(they can take 35 to 45 PSI) and to change nozzle to a full cone, i.e. a
simple cylindrical opening. That would be a true Low Pressure Low Volume
cleaning, but might do the job.

As for detergent, you said that Simple Green was your choice. In these days
there is a Crystal Simple Green and Simple Green. The Crystal is supposed to
be no odor, no residue. What would be your choice?

The grease that you used to re-lubricate switches with, name escapes me now
and your book is not here. Tell me where did you buy it.



Regards

Miroslav Pokorni

-----Original Message-----
From: Stan or Patricia Griffiths
[mailto:w7ni@easystreet.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 4:49 PM
To: TekScopes@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [TekScopes] Washing Oscilloscopes

Miroslav Pokorni wrote:

> I just could not resist not to make a comment on Peter's
statement: 'When we
> were shown Tek. 535s and 545 it was like something from
another World'.
>
> When I was in college, I think it was third year, there
was a rumor at the
> school that one of professors was doing some consulting
work and he got a
> Tektronix scope; back in Europe relations between students
and professors
> were a bit stand-offish and this particular professor was
kind of a stuffed
> shirt. It took me few days to muster the courage and find
an opportunity and
> I knocked on the office door of esteemed professor and
explained purpose of
> my visit. I must have taken him by surprise, he showed me
the scope and even
> let me turn controls. The scope was one of 7000 series, a
narrow job,
> probably 7203 (if there was such a thing); the year was
1967 or so. Year and
> half after that event I started to work and lab had 545As,
a 551 and some
> 'low life' (without dual base) 500 series.
>
> Regards
>
> Miroslav Pokorni

This is not a criticsm, Miroslav. I just want to help set
the record straight.
The first 7000 series scopes were introduced about late 1969
and the first
demonstrators in the US were available about mid-1970. I
doubt there could have
been any earlier ones in Europe . . .

The model number 7203 was never used but it might have been
a 7503 which was a
3-hole, non-storage, 100 MHz mainframe without a high
efficiency power supply,
which means it was HEAVY. I know . . . I was a Sales
Engineer when the 7000
series was introduced and I now own two 7503's . . .

Stan
w7ni@easystreet.com


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Phil (VA3UX) <phil@...>
 

At 01:12 PM 10/11/2001 -0700, you wrote:
Stan,

Not to wary, I am too old to be jumpy about criticism.

On the other note, I have a question on washing. In your book you described
a 'low cost' wash set up and mention spray gun with siphon suction for
water. I looked around and it was pretty hard to locate such a beast. The
one that I found at Grainger costs over $50 and requires 4 CFM of air, what
translates to another $200 for a new compressor; one that I have is only 2
CFM. Shelling out $250 is pretty steep price for washing a single PS503A.
Can you be more specific about spray gun that you have: make, model, CFM,
etc.
No no, there are other ones on the market that simply attach to the garden hose and siphon detergent through a second hose via venturi effect. Much much cheaper than the set-up you were looking at.

Phil


As an alternate solution, what do you think of using straight water jet. I
was thinking of using air to pressurize a 1 gallon polyethylene spray tank
(they can take 35 to 45 PSI) and to change nozzle to a full cone, i.e. a
simple cylindrical opening. That would be a true Low Pressure Low Volume
cleaning, but might do the job.

As for detergent, you said that Simple Green was your choice. In these days
there is a Crystal Simple Green and Simple Green. The Crystal is supposed to
be no odor, no residue. What would be your choice?

The grease that you used to re-lubricate switches with, name escapes me now
and your book is not here. Tell me where did you buy it.



Regards

Miroslav Pokorni



-----Original Message-----
From: Stan or Patricia Griffiths
[mailto:w7ni@easystreet.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 4:49 PM
To: TekScopes@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [TekScopes] Washing Oscilloscopes

Miroslav Pokorni wrote:

> I just could not resist not to make a comment on Peter's
statement: 'When we
> were shown Tek. 535s and 545 it was like something from
another World'.
>
> When I was in college, I think it was third year, there
was a rumor at the
> school that one of professors was doing some consulting
work and he got a
> Tektronix scope; back in Europe relations between students
and professors
> were a bit stand-offish and this particular professor was
kind of a stuffed
> shirt. It took me few days to muster the courage and find
an opportunity and
> I knocked on the office door of esteemed professor and
explained purpose of
> my visit. I must have taken him by surprise, he showed me
the scope and even
> let me turn controls. The scope was one of 7000 series, a
narrow job,
> probably 7203 (if there was such a thing); the year was
1967 or so. Year and
> half after that event I started to work and lab had 545As,
a 551 and some
> 'low life' (without dual base) 500 series.
>
> Regards
>
> Miroslav Pokorni

This is not a criticsm, Miroslav. I just want to help set
the record straight.
The first 7000 series scopes were introduced about late 1969
and the first
demonstrators in the US were available about mid-1970. I
doubt there could have
been any earlier ones in Europe . . .

The model number 7203 was never used but it might have been
a 7503 which was a
3-hole, non-storage, 100 MHz mainframe without a high
efficiency power supply,
which means it was HEAVY. I know . . . I was a Sales
Engineer when the 7000
series was introduced and I now own two 7503's . . .

Stan
w7ni@easystreet.com


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Miroslav Pokorni <mpokorni@...>
 

Thank you, Phil. Though, I was looking for something to avoid South
California tap water. I was thinking of getting non-drinking distilled
bottled water, non-drinking to avoid minerals, and to use that for wash and
rinse.

Module that I want to wash has some corrosion produced salt deposits and I
am hopping that distilled water would do the trick of desolving these salts.
It looks like, the plug-in was seating in sea water; I know a thing or two
about repairing equipment that was powered while submerged in sea water.

Regards

Miroslav Pokorni

-----Original Message-----
From: Phil (VA3UX) [mailto:phil@vaxxine.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 1:33 PM
To: TekScopes@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [TekScopes] Washing Oscilloscopes

At 01:12 PM 10/11/2001 -0700, you wrote:
>Stan,
>
>Not to wary, I am too old to be jumpy about criticism.
>
>On the other note, I have a question on washing. In your
book you described
>a 'low cost' wash set up and mention spray gun with siphon
suction for
>water. I looked around and it was pretty hard to locate
such a beast. The
>one that I found at Grainger costs over $50 and requires 4
CFM of air, what
>translates to another $200 for a new compressor; one that I
have is only 2
>CFM. Shelling out $250 is pretty steep price for washing a
single PS503A.
>Can you be more specific about spray gun that you have:
make, model, CFM,
>etc.

No no, there are other ones on the market that simply attach
to the garden
hose and siphon detergent through a second hose via venturi
effect. Much
much cheaper than the set-up you were looking at.

Phil


>As an alternate solution, what do you think of using
straight water jet. I
>was thinking of using air to pressurize a 1 gallon
polyethylene spray tank
>(they can take 35 to 45 PSI) and to change nozzle to a full
cone, i.e. a
>simple cylindrical opening. That would be a true Low
Pressure Low Volume
>cleaning, but might do the job.
>
>As for detergent, you said that Simple Green was your
choice. In these days
>there is a Crystal Simple Green and Simple Green. The
Crystal is supposed to
>be no odor, no residue. What would be your choice?
>
>The grease that you used to re-lubricate switches with,
name escapes me now
>and your book is not here. Tell me where did you buy it.
>
>
>
>Regards
>
>Miroslav Pokorni
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stan or Patricia Griffiths
>[mailto:w7ni@easystreet.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 4:49
PM
> To: TekScopes@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [TekScopes] Washing
Oscilloscopes
>
> Miroslav Pokorni wrote:
>
> > I just could not resist not to make a
comment on Peter's
>statement: 'When we
> > were shown Tek. 535s and 545 it was like
something from
>another World'.
> >
> > When I was in college, I think it was
third year, there
>was a rumor at the
> > school that one of professors was doing
some consulting
>work and he got a
> > Tektronix scope; back in Europe
relations between students
>and professors
> > were a bit stand-offish and this
particular professor was
>kind of a stuffed
> > shirt. It took me few days to muster the
courage and find
>an opportunity and
> > I knocked on the office door of esteemed
professor and
>explained purpose of
> > my visit. I must have taken him by
surprise, he showed me
>the scope and even
> > let me turn controls. The scope was one
of 7000 series, a
>narrow job,
> > probably 7203 (if there was such a
thing); the year was
>1967 or so. Year and
> > half after that event I started to work
and lab had 545As,
>a 551 and some
> > 'low life' (without dual base) 500
series.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Miroslav Pokorni
>
> This is not a criticsm, Miroslav. I just
want to help set
>the record straight.
> The first 7000 series scopes were
introduced about late 1969
>and the first
> demonstrators in the US were available
about mid-1970. I
>doubt there could have
> been any earlier ones in Europe . . .
>
> The model number 7203 was never used but
it might have been
>a 7503 which was a
> 3-hole, non-storage, 100 MHz mainframe
without a high
>efficiency power supply,
> which means it was HEAVY. I know . . . I
was a Sales
>Engineer when the 7000
> series was introduced and I now own two
7503's . . .
>
> Stan
> w7ni@easystreet.com
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups
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>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an
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>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
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Phil (VA3UX) <phil@...>
 

At 01:56 PM 10/11/2001 -0700, you wrote:
Thank you, Phil. Though, I was looking for something to avoid South
California tap water. I was thinking of getting non-drinking distilled
bottled water, non-drinking to avoid minerals, and to use that for wash and
rinse.
If the Total Dissolved Solids of the tap water isn't too high you could go ahead and use it. For example if the conductivity of the tap water is perhaps 100 mmhos or less, it isn't too bad. D.I. (or distilled) water is still better though. Although chloride itself (sodium chloride from salt water) is readily soluble in tap water (even more so in D.I./distilled water) the metallic corrosion products caused by chloride may not be very soluble at all. Removal of the corrosion products will require exposure to either a mildy acidic cleaner (such as CLR), or elbow-grease and a Scotch Brite pad. It's unlikely that brief exposure of these corrosion products to pure water will do anything at all.

The main purpose of using a pure water for the wash is so that there are no inorganic salts left behind on any of the surfaces after the water evaporates during drying. This isn't quite as critical with tag-strip construction but it would be critical with PC Board construction. These days the electronics industry goes to great lengths to produce the purest water possible for this very reason (ie. washing circuit boards).

Phil


Module that I want to wash has some corrosion produced salt deposits and I
am hopping that distilled water would do the trick of desolving these salts.
It looks like, the plug-in was seating in sea water; I know a thing or two
about repairing equipment that was powered while submerged in sea water.

Regards

Miroslav Pokorni



-----Original Message-----
From: Phil (VA3UX) [mailto:phil@vaxxine.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 1:33 PM
To: TekScopes@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [TekScopes] Washing Oscilloscopes

At 01:12 PM 10/11/2001 -0700, you wrote:
>Stan,
>
>Not to wary, I am too old to be jumpy about criticism.
>
>On the other note, I have a question on washing. In your
book you described
>a 'low cost' wash set up and mention spray gun with siphon
suction for
>water. I looked around and it was pretty hard to locate
such a beast. The
>one that I found at Grainger costs over $50 and requires 4
CFM of air, what
>translates to another $200 for a new compressor; one that I
have is only 2
>CFM. Shelling out $250 is pretty steep price for washing a
single PS503A.
>Can you be more specific about spray gun that you have:
make, model, CFM,
>etc.

No no, there are other ones on the market that simply attach
to the garden
hose and siphon detergent through a second hose via venturi
effect. Much
much cheaper than the set-up you were looking at.

Phil


>As an alternate solution, what do you think of using
straight water jet. I
>was thinking of using air to pressurize a 1 gallon
polyethylene spray tank
>(they can take 35 to 45 PSI) and to change nozzle to a full
cone, i.e. a
>simple cylindrical opening. That would be a true Low
Pressure Low Volume
>cleaning, but might do the job.
>
>As for detergent, you said that Simple Green was your
choice. In these days
>there is a Crystal Simple Green and Simple Green. The
Crystal is supposed to
>be no odor, no residue. What would be your choice?
>
>The grease that you used to re-lubricate switches with,
name escapes me now
>and your book is not here. Tell me where did you buy it.
>
>
>
>Regards
>
>Miroslav Pokorni
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stan or Patricia Griffiths
>[mailto:w7ni@easystreet.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 4:49
PM
> To: TekScopes@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [TekScopes] Washing
Oscilloscopes
>
> Miroslav Pokorni wrote:
>
> > I just could not resist not to make a
comment on Peter's
>statement: 'When we
> > were shown Tek. 535s and 545 it was like
something from
>another World'.
> >
> > When I was in college, I think it was
third year, there
>was a rumor at the
> > school that one of professors was doing
some consulting
>work and he got a
> > Tektronix scope; back in Europe
relations between students
>and professors
> > were a bit stand-offish and this
particular professor was
>kind of a stuffed
> > shirt. It took me few days to muster the
courage and find
>an opportunity and
> > I knocked on the office door of esteemed
professor and
>explained purpose of
> > my visit. I must have taken him by
surprise, he showed me
>the scope and even
> > let me turn controls. The scope was one
of 7000 series, a
>narrow job,
> > probably 7203 (if there was such a
thing); the year was
>1967 or so. Year and
> > half after that event I started to work
and lab had 545As,
>a 551 and some
> > 'low life' (without dual base) 500
series.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Miroslav Pokorni
>
> This is not a criticsm, Miroslav. I just
want to help set
>the record straight.
> The first 7000 series scopes were
introduced about late 1969
>and the first
> demonstrators in the US were available
about mid-1970. I
>doubt there could have
> been any earlier ones in Europe . . .
>
> The model number 7203 was never used but
it might have been
>a 7503 which was a
> 3-hole, non-storage, 100 MHz mainframe
without a high
>efficiency power supply,
> which means it was HEAVY. I know . . . I
was a Sales
>Engineer when the 7000
> series was introduced and I now own two
7503's . . .
>
> Stan
> w7ni@easystreet.com
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups
Sponsor
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an
email to:
> TekScopes-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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>
>
>
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Miroslav Pokorni <mpokorni@...>
 

I am afraid I never took an interest in water report, when city sends it
around, but I think that Dissolved Solids are pretty high, judging from
residue that I see on dishes. I used to have a neighbor who worked for city
water department and his stories about chlorine added to water because
Federal Government prescribes how much has to be added, regardless of
bacteriological count, make me think that chlorine content is high, too;
mind you, if you can smell chlorine, there is too much of it and I sure can
smell it.

The reason that I am thinking of using distilled water is hope that it would
be good solvent for salt deposits on board. These salts might be copper or
tin based, because they show only on traces. Was that you who polished front
bezel of a 465 to hide scratches? If I use Scotch Brite, that would be
equivalent to that polishing job of 465. I managed to half disassemble
PS503, so now the PCB is slightly separated from the frame and controls. In
that way I will be able to soak PCB. Soaking is half of the job and I am not
compulsive, do not need to be perfect. Will report on results of socking.

What is 'CLR', that you are talking about. Is that a trade name of product?
Where do you buy it? I am afraid, my 'mild acid' is 3% vinegar.

Are you sure that 100 mSiemens (you call it mmhos) is good enough? That
makes 10 Ohm and what is used for PCB washing is 10 MOhm. Local water is
lower that that, because it trips indicators on DI filters after a while. 10
Meg water is a modicum of purity, a real clean stuff is used by
semiconductor guys.

Regards

Miroslav Pokorni

-----Original Message-----
From: Phil (VA3UX) [mailto:phil@vaxxine.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 4:45 PM
To: TekScopes@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [TekScopes] Washing Oscilloscopes

At 01:56 PM 10/11/2001 -0700, you wrote:
>Thank you, Phil. Though, I was looking for something to
avoid South
>California tap water. I was thinking of getting
non-drinking distilled
>bottled water, non-drinking to avoid minerals, and to use
that for wash and
>rinse.

If the Total Dissolved Solids of the tap water isn't too
high you could go
ahead and use it. For example if the conductivity of the
tap water is
perhaps 100 mmhos or less, it isn't too bad. D.I. (or
distilled) water is
still better though. Although chloride itself (sodium
chloride from salt
water) is readily soluble in tap water (even more so in
D.I./distilled
water) the metallic corrosion products caused by chloride
may not be very
soluble at all. Removal of the corrosion products will
require exposure to
either a mildy acidic cleaner (such as CLR), or elbow-grease
and a Scotch
Brite pad. It's unlikely that brief exposure of these
corrosion products to
pure water will do anything at all.

The main purpose of using a pure water for the wash is so
that there are no
inorganic salts left behind on any of the surfaces after the
water
evaporates during drying. This isn't quite as critical with
tag-strip
construction but it would be critical with PC Board
construction. These
days the electronics industry goes to great lengths to
produce the purest
water possible for this very reason (ie. washing circuit
boards).

Phil


>Module that I want to wash has some corrosion produced salt
deposits and I
>am hopping that distilled water would do the trick of
desolving these salts.
>It looks like, the plug-in was seating in sea water; I know
a thing or two
>about repairing equipment that was powered while submerged
in sea water.
>
>Regards
>
>Miroslav Pokorni
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Phil (VA3UX)
[mailto:phil@vaxxine.com]
> Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 1:33 PM
> To: TekScopes@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [TekScopes] Washing
Oscilloscopes
>
> At 01:12 PM 10/11/2001 -0700, you wrote:
> >Stan,
> >
> >Not to wary, I am too old to be jumpy
about criticism.
> >
> >On the other note, I have a question on
washing. In your
>book you described
> >a 'low cost' wash set up and mention
spray gun with siphon
>suction for
> >water. I looked around and it was pretty
hard to locate
>such a beast. The
> >one that I found at Grainger costs over
$50 and requires 4
>CFM of air, what
> >translates to another $200 for a new
compressor; one that I
>have is only 2
> >CFM. Shelling out $250 is pretty steep
price for washing a
>single PS503A.
> >Can you be more specific about spray gun
that you have:
>make, model, CFM,
> >etc.
>
> No no, there are other ones on the market
that simply attach
>to the garden
> hose and siphon detergent through a second
hose via venturi
>effect. Much
> much cheaper than the set-up you were
looking at.
>
> Phil
>
>
> >As an alternate solution, what do you
think of using
>straight water jet. I
> >was thinking of using air to pressurize a
1 gallon
>polyethylene spray tank
> >(they can take 35 to 45 PSI) and to
change nozzle to a full
>cone, i.e. a
> >simple cylindrical opening. That would be
a true Low
>Pressure Low Volume
> >cleaning, but might do the job.
> >
> >As for detergent, you said that Simple
Green was your
>choice. In these days
> >there is a Crystal Simple Green and
Simple Green. The
>Crystal is supposed to
> >be no odor, no residue. What would be
your choice?
> >
> >The grease that you used to re-lubricate
switches with,
>name escapes me now
> >and your book is not here. Tell me where
did you buy it.
> >
> >
> >
> >Regards
> >
> >Miroslav Pokorni
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original
Message-----
> > From: Stan or Patricia
Griffiths
> >[mailto:w7ni@easystreet.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday,
October 10, 2001 4:49
>PM
> > To:
TekScopes@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re:
[TekScopes] Washing
>Oscilloscopes
> >
> > Miroslav Pokorni wrote:
> >
> > > I just could not
resist not to make a
>comment on Peter's
> >statement: 'When we
> > > were shown Tek. 535s
and 545 it was like
>something from
> >another World'.
> > >
> > > When I was in college,
I think it was
>third year, there
> >was a rumor at the
> > > school that one of
professors was doing
>some consulting
> >work and he got a
> > > Tektronix scope; back
in Europe
>relations between students
> >and professors
> > > were a bit
stand-offish and this
>particular professor was
> >kind of a stuffed
> > > shirt. It took me few
days to muster the
>courage and find
> >an opportunity and
> > > I knocked on the
office door of esteemed
>professor and
> >explained purpose of
> > > my visit. I must have
taken him by
>surprise, he showed me
> >the scope and even
> > > let me turn controls.
The scope was one
>of 7000 series, a
> >narrow job,
> > > probably 7203 (if
there was such a
>thing); the year was
> >1967 or so. Year and
> > > half after that event
I started to work
>and lab had 545As,
> >a 551 and some
> > > 'low life' (without
dual base) 500
>series.
> > >
> > > Regards
> > >
> > > Miroslav Pokorni
> >
> > This is not a criticsm,
Miroslav. I just
>want to help set
> >the record straight.
> > The first 7000 series
scopes were
>introduced about late 1969
> >and the first
> > demonstrators in the US
were available
>about mid-1970. I
> >doubt there could have
> > been any earlier ones in
Europe . . .
> >
> > The model number 7203
was never used but
>it might have been
> >a 7503 which was a
> > 3-hole, non-storage, 100
MHz mainframe
>without a high
> >efficiency power supply,
> > which means it was
HEAVY. I know . . . I
>was a Sales
> >Engineer when the 7000
> > series was introduced
and I now own two
>7503's . . .
> >
> > Stan
> > w7ni@easystreet.com
> >
> >
> > ------------------------
Yahoo! Groups
>Sponsor
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this
group, send an
>email to:
> >
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> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo!
Groups is subject to
> >http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> >[Non-text portions of this message have
been removed]
> >
> >
> >To unsubscribe from this group, send an
email to:
> >TekScopes-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an
email to:
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>
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>
>
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Phil (VA3UX) <phil@...>
 

At 05:33 PM 10/11/2001 -0700, you wrote:


The reason that I am thinking of using distilled water is hope that it would
be good solvent for salt deposits on board. These salts might be copper or
tin based, because they show only on traces.
Now that you mention PC Board (I should have known that), distilled or D.I. water is the only way to go. Disregard my comments about 100 uSieman water - I was thinking of an old boat anchor scope like a 545.


Was that you who polished front
bezel of a 465 to hide scratches? If I use Scotch Brite, that would be
equivalent to that polishing job of 465.
No it wasn't me Miroslav but I do remember someone mentioning that.


I managed to half disassemble
PS503, so now the PCB is slightly separated from the frame and controls. In
that way I will be able to soak PCB. Soaking is half of the job and I am not
compulsive, do not need to be perfect. Will report on results of socking.

What is 'CLR', that you are talking about. Is that a trade name of product?
Where do you buy it? I am afraid, my 'mild acid' is 3% vinegar.
3% vinegar would be a better choice. "CLR" is an acidic cleaner available from WalMart and grocery stores. I can't remember exactly but I think it's a dilute blend of HCL and citric acid - definitely a lot more aggressive than vinegar. And probably way too aggressive for a circuit board. Bear in mind that even vinegar can "munch" aluminum parts, so be careful.


Are you sure that 100 mSiemens (you call it mmhos) is good enough? That
makes 10 Ohm and what is used for PCB washing is 10 MOhm. Local water is
lower that that, because it trips indicators on DI filters after a while. 10
Meg water is a modicum of purity, a real clean stuff is used by
semiconductor guys.
Right. As I said, I was thinking of an old tank of a scope rather than something delicate like a PS503. 10 Megohm water would be nice if you can get it. If you live near a thermal generating plant you might be able to get someone there to fill a couple of 5 gallon jugs with D.I. water. They generally have water in 2 to 10 MegOhm range. Even some of the lower pressure plants I look after (900 to 1500 PSIG range) have 5 MegOhm water.

Best of luck

Phil


Regards

Miroslav Pokorni



-----Original Message-----
From: Phil (VA3UX) [mailto:phil@vaxxine.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 4:45 PM
To: TekScopes@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [TekScopes] Washing Oscilloscopes

At 01:56 PM 10/11/2001 -0700, you wrote:
>Thank you, Phil. Though, I was looking for something to
avoid South
>California tap water. I was thinking of getting
non-drinking distilled
>bottled water, non-drinking to avoid minerals, and to use
that for wash and
>rinse.

If the Total Dissolved Solids of the tap water isn't too
high you could go
ahead and use it. For example if the conductivity of the
tap water is
perhaps 100 mmhos or less, it isn't too bad. D.I. (or
distilled) water is
still better though. Although chloride itself (sodium
chloride from salt
water) is readily soluble in tap water (even more so in
D.I./distilled
water) the metallic corrosion products caused by chloride
may not be very
soluble at all. Removal of the corrosion products will
require exposure to
either a mildy acidic cleaner (such as CLR), or elbow-grease
and a Scotch
Brite pad. It's unlikely that brief exposure of these
corrosion products to
pure water will do anything at all.

The main purpose of using a pure water for the wash is so
that there are no
inorganic salts left behind on any of the surfaces after the
water
evaporates during drying. This isn't quite as critical with
tag-strip
construction but it would be critical with PC Board
construction. These
days the electronics industry goes to great lengths to
produce the purest
water possible for this very reason (ie. washing circuit
boards).

Phil


>Module that I want to wash has some corrosion produced salt
deposits and I
>am hopping that distilled water would do the trick of
desolving these salts.
>It looks like, the plug-in was seating in sea water; I know
a thing or two
>about repairing equipment that was powered while submerged
in sea water.
>
>Regards
>
>Miroslav Pokorni
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Phil (VA3UX)
[mailto:phil@vaxxine.com]
> Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 1:33 PM
> To: TekScopes@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [TekScopes] Washing
Oscilloscopes
>
> At 01:12 PM 10/11/2001 -0700, you wrote:
> >Stan,
> >
> >Not to wary, I am too old to be jumpy
about criticism.
> >
> >On the other note, I have a question on
washing. In your
>book you described
> >a 'low cost' wash set up and mention
spray gun with siphon
>suction for
> >water. I looked around and it was pretty
hard to locate
>such a beast. The
> >one that I found at Grainger costs over
$50 and requires 4
>CFM of air, what
> >translates to another $200 for a new
compressor; one that I
>have is only 2
> >CFM. Shelling out $250 is pretty steep
price for washing a
>single PS503A.
> >Can you be more specific about spray gun
that you have:
>make, model, CFM,
> >etc.
>
> No no, there are other ones on the market
that simply attach
>to the garden
> hose and siphon detergent through a second
hose via venturi
>effect. Much
> much cheaper than the set-up you were
looking at.
>
> Phil
>
>
> >As an alternate solution, what do you
think of using
>straight water jet. I
> >was thinking of using air to pressurize a
1 gallon
>polyethylene spray tank
> >(they can take 35 to 45 PSI) and to
change nozzle to a full
>cone, i.e. a
> >simple cylindrical opening. That would be
a true Low
>Pressure Low Volume
> >cleaning, but might do the job.
> >
> >As for detergent, you said that Simple
Green was your
>choice. In these days
> >there is a Crystal Simple Green and
Simple Green. The
>Crystal is supposed to
> >be no odor, no residue. What would be
your choice?
> >
> >The grease that you used to re-lubricate
switches with,
>name escapes me now
> >and your book is not here. Tell me where
did you buy it.
> >
> >
> >
> >Regards
> >
> >Miroslav Pokorni
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original
Message-----
> > From: Stan or Patricia
Griffiths
> >[mailto:w7ni@easystreet.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday,
October 10, 2001 4:49
>PM
> > To:
TekScopes@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re:
[TekScopes] Washing
>Oscilloscopes
> >
> > Miroslav Pokorni wrote:
> >
> > > I just could not
resist not to make a
>comment on Peter's
> >statement: 'When we
> > > were shown Tek. 535s
and 545 it was like
>something from
> >another World'.
> > >
> > > When I was in college,
I think it was
>third year, there
> >was a rumor at the
> > > school that one of
professors was doing
>some consulting
> >work and he got a
> > > Tektronix scope; back
in Europe
>relations between students
> >and professors
> > > were a bit
stand-offish and this
>particular professor was
> >kind of a stuffed
> > > shirt. It took me few
days to muster the
>courage and find
> >an opportunity and
> > > I knocked on the
office door of esteemed
>professor and
> >explained purpose of
> > > my visit. I must have
taken him by
>surprise, he showed me
> >the scope and even
> > > let me turn controls.
The scope was one
>of 7000 series, a
> >narrow job,
> > > probably 7203 (if
there was such a
>thing); the year was
> >1967 or so. Year and
> > > half after that event
I started to work
>and lab had 545As,
> >a 551 and some
> > > 'low life' (without
dual base) 500
>series.
> > >
> > > Regards
> > >
> > > Miroslav Pokorni
> >
> > This is not a criticsm,
Miroslav. I just
>want to help set
> >the record straight.
> > The first 7000 series
scopes were
>introduced about late 1969
> >and the first
> > demonstrators in the US
were available
>about mid-1970. I
> >doubt there could have
> > been any earlier ones in
Europe . . .
> >
> > The model number 7203
was never used but
>it might have been
> >a 7503 which was a
> > 3-hole, non-storage, 100
MHz mainframe
>without a high
> >efficiency power supply,
> > which means it was
HEAVY. I know . . . I
>was a Sales
> >Engineer when the 7000
> > series was introduced
and I now own two
>7503's . . .
> >
> > Stan
> > w7ni@easystreet.com
> >
> >
> > ------------------------
Yahoo! Groups
>Sponsor
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this
group, send an
>email to:
> >
TekScopes-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo!
Groups is subject to
> >http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> >[Non-text portions of this message have
been removed]
> >
> >
> >To unsubscribe from this group, send an
email to:
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> >
> >
> >
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>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an
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>
>
>
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dhuster@...
 

It seems to me that unless you guys are worried about the water in
some third-world country or are drawing directly from your farm pond,
you're getting 'way too picky about your water supply. When you're
to the point where you won't wash a 545B with the water you
drink .....

It would seem that post #790,
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TekScopes/message/790 hasn't been
read. TEKTRONIX (the company that manufactures and repairs Tektronix
scopes -- remember them?) themselves washed their products ROUTINELY
using city tap water as the detergent carrier and rinse ... not
distilled water, not deionized water, not club soda, not filtered
duckbill platypus urine, not some fancy French spring water ...
danged Dallas/Ft. Worth metroplex CITY WATER! And when I worked for
them, if the inside was filthy, they washed it regardless of the
product line, including 500, 400, 300, T900, Sony/Tek, 7K, 5K, TM500
and TV products. Telequipment (too frail), the 200-series (didn't
get dirty inside), 422 (didn't get dirty inside) and the medical
monitors (liability risks) were the only exceptions that I know of.

Now, there's no way I'm going to claim that they're still washing
instruments (I truly haven't checked) and they probably don't simply
because their support for a typical line item anymore is so short
that there's no point. Besides, fans are nearly a thing of the past,
so current production items don't have the vacuum cleaner effect.

If minerals in the supply are a concern, a simple micropore water
filter should be sufficient. The way you're describing it, it sounds
like your water supply is pumped straight from the sewage treatment
plant's lagoon. Rather than washing scopes, you should be turning
someone into the EPA and the state health department.

Dean


John Rehwinkel <spam@...>
 

It seems to me that unless you guys are worried about the water in
some third-world country or are drawing directly from your farm
pond, you're getting 'way too picky about your water supply. When
you're to the point where you won't wash a 545B with the water you
drink .....
Amusing you should say that. The tap water where I live has a
*lot* of dissolved solids. Or not-so-dissolved solids. It does
meet the local health requirements, but it's nasty. I'm happy
to use it to wash myself, my dishes, and my clothes, but I have
weak kidneys and refuse to drink it. So I simply distill water
for drinking/cooking purposes, I also use it to wash 'scopes, top
off the radiator in my car, and for the steam iron.

If anyone's curious, the still is made by Ecopure, I bought it
at a local Sears for $99. Does a gallon in about 6 hours.

-- John Rehwinkel KG4L
spam@fgm.com


Miroslav Pokorni <mpokorni@...>
 

OK, maybe I do not have any standards to speak of when it comes to water
that I drink. Come to think, that is so. Most people get horrified when I
ask for straight tap water, everyone else around Southern California drinks
designer water.

However, production people at the place where I work made me appreciate
clean water. I work for a company that manufactures memory boards and in
these days most of products are Dual In-line Memory Modules (DIMM). These
are high pin count, 186 to 200 pins, consequently, connectors are of low
contact pressure type, to make insertion force reasonable. Low contact
pressure means that connection is extremely vulnerable to dirt. Our
production people have as much sense about assembly process as I seem to
have of drinking water. They were to be heroes by saving company some money
on DI water filters. Board washer that we have is pretty typical set up: it
takes DI water for last rinse and overflow from that stage goes to the next
lower cleanness; the ripple down goes to all stages but first wash, which is
done by high volume of straight tap water. Well, the cost saving measure was
to partially bypass DI filter and feed about 70% of final rinse water
straight from tap. At first, test department did not seem to have their act
together, there was pretty high failure rate but failures were not
repeatable. Then, customer returns showed extremely high No Problem Found
(NPF) cases, in worst days we had over 70% NPF. Some of customers were known
for high NPF returns, it appears that they used warranty returns to rotate
their stock, but when high NPF showed across the board, even production
supervisor had to admit that there was something wrong. Connector
contamination was suspected and few samples were taken to a lab for
analyzes. The usual stuff showed up, protein (from handling), some other
organic matter, resin like, but nothing that seemed to impede contact. In
the next step, Quality Control Manager took washer under study and
discovered the existence of cost saving measures. No one in production would
admit making any changes to water setting, what was quite usual for them,
and certainly there was no way to say how long washer was running on the
water mix. Washer was in quite poor shape, deposits everywhere and lot of
spay nozzles clogged. After cleaning the washer, reading a riot act to
production and instituting post production connector cleaning, the whole
customer return rate dropped and NPF dropped to below 20%, what is
reasonable considering political use of returns.

Now, do not tell me that any water would do. Memory is quite digital, high
signal swings and low impedance, so it is not surface leaks between circuits
that made failures, it is coating the fingers of edge connector, the crudest
of contamination appearances, that led to failures; I would dread to think
what would have happen with a true analog board. It is too bad that company
did not have will to do some more lab analyzes after clean up, so that a
base line can be established and possibly criterions set for future process
monitoring.

Regards

Miroslav Pokorni

-----Original Message-----
From: dhuster@pb.k12.mo.us [mailto:dhuster@pb.k12.mo.us]
Sent: Friday, October 12, 2001 5:39 AM
To: TekScopes@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [TekScopes] Re: Washing Oscilloscopes

It seems to me that unless you guys are worried about the
water in
some third-world country or are drawing directly from your
farm pond,
you're getting 'way too picky about your water supply. When
you're
to the point where you won't wash a 545B with the water you
drink .....

It would seem that post #790,
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TekScopes/message/790 hasn't
been
read. TEKTRONIX (the company that manufactures and repairs
Tektronix
scopes -- remember them?) themselves washed their products
ROUTINELY
using city tap water as the detergent carrier and rinse ...
not
distilled water, not deionized water, not club soda, not
filtered
duckbill platypus urine, not some fancy French spring water
...
danged Dallas/Ft. Worth metroplex CITY WATER! And when I
worked for
them, if the inside was filthy, they washed it regardless of
the
product line, including 500, 400, 300, T900, Sony/Tek, 7K,
5K, TM500
and TV products. Telequipment (too frail), the 200-series
(didn't
get dirty inside), 422 (didn't get dirty inside) and the
medical
monitors (liability risks) were the only exceptions that I
know of.

Now, there's no way I'm going to claim that they're still
washing
instruments (I truly haven't checked) and they probably
don't simply
because their support for a typical line item anymore is so
short
that there's no point. Besides, fans are nearly a thing of
the past,
so current production items don't have the vacuum cleaner
effect.

If minerals in the supply are a concern, a simple micropore
water
filter should be sufficient. The way you're describing it,
it sounds
like your water supply is pumped straight from the sewage
treatment
plant's lagoon. Rather than washing scopes, you should be
turning
someone into the EPA and the state health department.

Dean



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