Copying of Manuals


Phil (VA3UX) <phil@...>
 

Well, I've read all the posts on this subject and I keep flip-flopping between it's OK to copy and it's not OK to copy. I see valid points to both sides. Stan is in the unique position of having worked loyally for Tek for along time which must create a bit of an internal tug-o-war with an issue like this.

In summary, I see this as a tempest in a teapot. I believe that the demand for vintage Tek manuals is puny in modern economic terms. I do not believe there is any money to be made with this process. I do not see that there is any guilt to be felt or borne from sharing "a copy" of a single obsolete manual between friends. As for the Tek's copyrights : they own them and they have their rights. If they refuse to allow legitimate copying of old manuals, it isn't for economic reasons. It's because they're afflicted with the same paranoia that most high tech companies are afflicted with today in North America. Rational thinking has nothing to do with it.

Second, the task of producing a good quality copy is formidable and the ratio of time/labor requirement to economic reward is poor. I base this on the one and only experience I had producing a copy of the Tek 180A manual a few years back for someone that could not locate one at the time. I asked one of the girls in our office to do it and she obliged. The 180A manual is just a little thing compared to most Tek manuals. What she produced was a commercial quality copy - I was thrilled with it : no schematics taped together - proper sized sheets for the drawings, good quality paper throughout, covers with comb binding, labeled tabbed dividers. She said it took about 2 1/2 hours to produce that. I was shocked. I thought she would have that whipped-up in about 20 minutes. Taking everything into account I figure that manual was worth $40 or $50. And then you'd have to add your profit margin on top if you were going to sell it. Nobody would pay that kind of money for that manual when the instrument itself sells for considerably less. Now consider the time and cost of producing a copy of a 547 manual. If Tek did it, they'd probably want $150 US for it. Any takers ? I doubt it. SO, anyone making copies of these manuals for sale AND offering them at a price that anyone is likely willing to pay, is probably doing so out of labor-of-love, or at tiny profit margins that virtually nobody people wouldn't be interested in. I've copied schematics here and there so I can mark them up while doing a repair. The process of just doing a few sheets is cumbersome enough. I can't imagine anyone wanting to copy entire manuals and doing a decent job - it ain't fun. Stan, are you REALLY sure you'd like to be franchised for production of manual copies ?

Phil


jstanton@...
 

Hi Phil,

You are of course correct. the economies of copying old mauals are
not good. My experience is that it takes many hours to make a good
copy, pointless if you are just making one and could have purchased
it for $25. However if you go the extra distance and make a quality
PDF copy or PostScript copy that can be different; subsequent copying
and distribution costs are minimal.

I don't see copying as an economic exercise, but just one of making
rare manuals available. Just the good quality, acid-free paper and
binding materials are expensive. Then you need a high quality color
duplex printer, also expensive, as is the ink/toner.

By the way what you correctly stated about trademarks - that the
owner must fight to prevent it from becoming a generic name, is a
principal that also applies to copyright, probably because the law is
related.

Regards

John Stanton


--- In TekScopes@y..., "Phil (VA3UX)" <phil@v...> wrote:
Well, I've read all the posts on this subject and I keep flip-
flopping
between it's OK to copy and it's not OK to copy. I see valid
points to
both sides. Stan is in the unique position of having worked
loyally for
Tek for along time which must create a bit of an internal tug-o-war
with an
issue like this.

In summary, I see this as a tempest in a teapot. I believe that the
demand
for vintage Tek manuals is puny in modern economic terms. I do not
believe
there is any money to be made with this process. I do not see that
there is
any guilt to be felt or borne from sharing "a copy" of a single
obsolete
manual between friends. As for the Tek's copyrights : they own
them and
they have their rights. If they refuse to allow legitimate copying
of old
manuals, it isn't for economic reasons. It's because they're
afflicted with
the same paranoia that most high tech companies are afflicted with
today in
North America. Rational thinking has nothing to do with it.

Second, the task of producing a good quality copy is formidable and
the
ratio of time/labor requirement to economic reward is poor. I base
this on
the one and only experience I had producing a copy of the Tek 180A
manual a
few years back for someone that could not locate one at the time. I
asked
one of the girls in our office to do it and she obliged. The 180A
manual
is just a little thing compared to most Tek manuals. What she
produced was
a commercial quality copy - I was thrilled with it : no schematics
taped
together - proper sized sheets for the drawings, good quality paper
throughout, covers with comb binding, labeled tabbed dividers. She
said it
took about 2 1/2 hours to produce that. I was shocked. I thought
she would
have that whipped-up in about 20 minutes. Taking everything into
account I
figure that manual was worth $40 or $50. And then you'd have to add
your
profit margin on top if you were going to sell it. Nobody would pay
that
kind of money for that manual when the instrument itself sells for
considerably less. Now consider the time and cost of producing a
copy of a
547 manual. If Tek did it, they'd probably want $150 US for it.
Any
takers ? I doubt it. SO, anyone making copies of these manuals
for sale
AND offering them at a price that anyone is likely willing to pay,
is
probably doing so out of labor-of-love, or at tiny profit margins
that
virtually nobody people wouldn't be interested in. I've copied
schematics
here and there so I can mark them up while doing a repair. The
process of
just doing a few sheets is cumbersome enough. I can't imagine
anyone
wanting to copy entire manuals and doing a decent job - it ain't
fun. Stan, are you REALLY sure you'd like to be franchised for
production
of manual copies ?

Phil


Miroslav Pokorni <mpokorni@...>
 

Phil,

The copy of the manual that you are describing looks like true copy. That
lady did a terrific job and quite quickly, even though you expected it to
take only 20 minutes. I own half a dozen of copied manuals and they are
'Xerox bond paper', that cheap staff used in copiers, schematics are double
letter size (fall of the cliff or next page if they are larger), spiral
bound alright but cover is just heavier blue paper.

Regards

Miroslav Pokorni

-----Original Message-----
From: Phil (VA3UX) [mailto:phil@vaxxine.com]
Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2001 7:42 AM
To: TekScopes@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [TekScopes] Copying of Manuals

Well, I've read all the posts on this subject and I keep
flip-flopping
between it's OK to copy and it's not OK to copy. I see
valid points to
both sides. Stan is in the unique position of having worked
loyally for
Tek for along time which must create a bit of an internal
tug-o-war with an
issue like this.

In summary, I see this as a tempest in a teapot. I believe
that the demand
for vintage Tek manuals is puny in modern economic terms. I
do not believe
there is any money to be made with this process. I do not
see that there is
any guilt to be felt or borne from sharing "a copy" of a
single obsolete
manual between friends. As for the Tek's copyrights : they
own them and
they have their rights. If they refuse to allow legitimate
copying of old
manuals, it isn't for economic reasons. It's because they're
afflicted with
the same paranoia that most high tech companies are
afflicted with today in
North America. Rational thinking has nothing to do with it.

Second, the task of producing a good quality copy is
formidable and the
ratio of time/labor requirement to economic reward is poor.
I base this on
the one and only experience I had producing a copy of the
Tek 180A manual a
few years back for someone that could not locate one at the
time. I asked
one of the girls in our office to do it and she obliged.
The 180A manual
is just a little thing compared to most Tek manuals. What
she produced was
a commercial quality copy - I was thrilled with it : no
schematics taped
together - proper sized sheets for the drawings, good
quality paper
throughout, covers with comb binding, labeled tabbed
dividers. She said it
took about 2 1/2 hours to produce that. I was shocked. I
thought she would
have that whipped-up in about 20 minutes. Taking everything
into account I
figure that manual was worth $40 or $50. And then you'd have
to add your
profit margin on top if you were going to sell it. Nobody
would pay that
kind of money for that manual when the instrument itself
sells for
considerably less. Now consider the time and cost of
producing a copy of a
547 manual. If Tek did it, they'd probably want $150 US for
it. Any
takers ? I doubt it. SO, anyone making copies of these
manuals for sale
AND offering them at a price that anyone is likely willing
to pay, is
probably doing so out of labor-of-love, or at tiny profit
margins that
virtually nobody people wouldn't be interested in. I've
copied schematics
here and there so I can mark them up while doing a repair.
The process of
just doing a few sheets is cumbersome enough. I can't
imagine anyone
wanting to copy entire manuals and doing a decent job - it
ain't
fun. Stan, are you REALLY sure you'd like to be franchised
for production
of manual copies ?

Phil


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Phil (VA3UX) <phil@...>
 

At 11:30 AM 9/17/2001 -0700, you wrote:
Phil,

The copy of the manual that you are describing looks like true copy. That
lady did a terrific job and quite quickly, even though you expected it to
take only 20 minutes. I own half a dozen of copied manuals and they are
'Xerox bond paper', that cheap staff used in copiers, schematics are double
letter size (fall of the cliff or next page if they are larger), spiral
bound alright but cover is just heavier blue paper.
Oh it was really nice Miroslav. If I had known she would go that much trouble I wouldn't have asked her. And I told her I wouldn't ask her to do any more in view of the effort required. The guy that got the manual was extremely happy and sent back a very nice e-mail which in turn I forwarded on to the girl that did the job. That made her day but I think she's happy that she's never seen another Tek manual come into the office.

Phil

Regards

Miroslav Pokorni



-----Original Message-----
From: Phil (VA3UX) [mailto:phil@vaxxine.com]
Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2001 7:42 AM
To: TekScopes@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [TekScopes] Copying of Manuals

Well, I've read all the posts on this subject and I keep
flip-flopping
between it's OK to copy and it's not OK to copy. I see
valid points to
both sides. Stan is in the unique position of having worked
loyally for
Tek for along time which must create a bit of an internal
tug-o-war with an
issue like this.

In summary, I see this as a tempest in a teapot. I believe
that the demand
for vintage Tek manuals is puny in modern economic terms. I
do not believe
there is any money to be made with this process. I do not
see that there is
any guilt to be felt or borne from sharing "a copy" of a
single obsolete
manual between friends. As for the Tek's copyrights : they
own them and
they have their rights. If they refuse to allow legitimate
copying of old
manuals, it isn't for economic reasons. It's because they're
afflicted with
the same paranoia that most high tech companies are
afflicted with today in
North America. Rational thinking has nothing to do with it.

Second, the task of producing a good quality copy is
formidable and the
ratio of time/labor requirement to economic reward is poor.
I base this on
the one and only experience I had producing a copy of the
Tek 180A manual a
few years back for someone that could not locate one at the
time. I asked
one of the girls in our office to do it and she obliged.
The 180A manual
is just a little thing compared to most Tek manuals. What
she produced was
a commercial quality copy - I was thrilled with it : no
schematics taped
together - proper sized sheets for the drawings, good
quality paper
throughout, covers with comb binding, labeled tabbed
dividers. She said it
took about 2 1/2 hours to produce that. I was shocked. I
thought she would
have that whipped-up in about 20 minutes. Taking everything
into account I
figure that manual was worth $40 or $50. And then you'd have
to add your
profit margin on top if you were going to sell it. Nobody
would pay that
kind of money for that manual when the instrument itself
sells for
considerably less. Now consider the time and cost of
producing a copy of a
547 manual. If Tek did it, they'd probably want $150 US for
it. Any
takers ? I doubt it. SO, anyone making copies of these
manuals for sale
AND offering them at a price that anyone is likely willing
to pay, is
probably doing so out of labor-of-love, or at tiny profit
margins that
virtually nobody people wouldn't be interested in. I've
copied schematics
here and there so I can mark them up while doing a repair.
The process of
just doing a few sheets is cumbersome enough. I can't
imagine anyone
wanting to copy entire manuals and doing a decent job - it
ain't
fun. Stan, are you REALLY sure you'd like to be franchised
for production
of manual copies ?

Phil


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