Obfusctated email adresses in archive


 

Dennis,

It's possible to change the group settings to not hide email addresses in
the archive. If anyone is concerned about exposing their email address,
they probably already use a "throw-away" email address to post to the group.

Please could I request that you change the setting?

Thanks
David


David DiGiacomo
 

On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 6:53 AM David C. Partridge
<david.partridge@perdrix.co.uk> wrote:

Dennis,

It's possible to change the group settings to not hide email addresses in
the archive. If anyone is concerned about exposing their email address,
they probably already use a "throw-away" email address to post to the group.

Please could I request that you change the setting?
What is the reason for this request? Why can't you just use the
private message/email function of the groups.io website?


Colin Herbert
 

Oddly enough, I get to see email addresses. At the top of emails is something like:

"TekScopes@groups.io; on behalf of; Harry Houdini <harryhoudini@magicianmail.com>"

I don't understand why, but there you go. I didn't do anything special to get this, perhaps it's because I am in the UK?

Colin.

-----Original Message-----
From: TekScopes@groups.io [mailto:TekScopes@groups.io] On Behalf Of David DiGiacomo
Sent: 22 June 2020 15:08
To: TekScopes
Subject: Re: [TekScopes] Obfusctated email adresses in archive

On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 6:53 AM David C. Partridge
<david.partridge@perdrix.co.uk> wrote:

Dennis,

It's possible to change the group settings to not hide email addresses in
the archive. If anyone is concerned about exposing their email address,
they probably already use a "throw-away" email address to post to the group.

Please could I request that you change the setting?
What is the reason for this request? Why can't you just use the
private message/email function of the groups.io website?


n4buq
 

I get almost the same thing except the address is mingled with groups.io. I can usually figure it out but it isn't exactly as clear in my email reader as your example.

Thanks,
Barry - N4BUQ

----- Original Message -----
From: "Colin Herbert via groups.io" <colingherbert=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io>
To: TekScopes@groups.io
Sent: Monday, June 22, 2020 10:12:09 AM
Subject: Re: [TekScopes] Obfusctated email adresses in archive

Oddly enough, I get to see email addresses. At the top of emails is something
like:

"TekScopes@groups.io; on behalf of; Harry Houdini
<harryhoudini@magicianmail.com>"

I don't understand why, but there you go. I didn't do anything special to get
this, perhaps it's because I am in the UK?

Colin.

-----Original Message-----
From: TekScopes@groups.io [mailto:TekScopes@groups.io] On Behalf Of David
DiGiacomo
Sent: 22 June 2020 15:08
To: TekScopes
Subject: Re: [TekScopes] Obfusctated email adresses in archive

On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 6:53 AM David C. Partridge
<david.partridge@perdrix.co.uk> wrote:

Dennis,

It's possible to change the group settings to not hide email addresses in
the archive. If anyone is concerned about exposing their email address,
they probably already use a "throw-away" email address to post to the
group.

Please could I request that you change the setting?
What is the reason for this request? Why can't you just use the
private message/email function of the groups.io website?








Steve Hendrix
 

At 2020-06-22 11:12 AM, Colin Herbert via groups.io wrote:


Oddly enough, I get to see email addresses. At the top of emails is
something like:

"TekScopes@groups.io; on behalf of; Harry Houdini
<harryhoudini@magicianmail.com>"

I don't understand why, but there you go. I didn't do anything special to
get this, perhaps it's because I am in the UK?
I think it has more to do with your viewer. I still use Eudora (archaic, I know....) and it shows no return address in the "preview", which is how I normally read emails. However, if I fully open a single email so I can see the headers, it's right there in the From address.

Steve Hendrix


David DiGiacomo
 

From: "Colin Herbert via groups.io"
<colingherbert=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io>

Oddly enough, I get to see email addresses. At the top of emails is something
> like:
>
> "TekScopes@groups.io; on behalf of; Harry Houdini
> <harryhoudini@magicianmail.com>"
>
> I don't understand why, but there you go. I didn't do anything special to get
> this, perhaps it's because I am in the UK?

You didn't read the original message carefully enough. He said "in
the archive", that is, the groups.io website.


Carsten Bormann
 

On 2020-06-22, at 17:17, n4buq <n4buq@knology.net> wrote:

I get almost the same thing except the address is mingled with groups.io. I can usually figure it out but it isn't exactly as clear in my email reader as your example.
That is a different issue — the address is not “obfuscated" by groups.io, it is /protected/ from the evils that SPF and DMARC foist on mailing lists. This is not going away.

(As was mentioned, talking about the mail interface here — the original poster was talking about the web interface.)

Grüße, Carsten


 

The reason I raised this is that loads of our users regularly complain that they can't use the email addresses they see in the archive because they are obfuscated by groups.io.

As it's simple to change - I asked.

David

-----Original Message-----
From: TekScopes@groups.io [mailto:TekScopes@groups.io] On Behalf Of David DiGiacomo
Sent: 22 June 2020 15:08
To: TekScopes
Subject: Re: [TekScopes] Obfusctated email adresses in archive

On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 6:53 AM David C. Partridge
<david.partridge@perdrix.co.uk> wrote:

Dennis,

It's possible to change the group settings to not hide email addresses in
the archive. If anyone is concerned about exposing their email address,
they probably already use a "throw-away" email address to post to the group.

Please could I request that you change the setting?
What is the reason for this request? Why can't you just use the
private message/email function of the groups.io website?


 

This isn't in emails - its only in the archive

David

-----Original Message-----
From: TekScopes@groups.io [mailto:TekScopes@groups.io] On Behalf Of Colin Herbert via groups.io
Sent: 22 June 2020 16:12
To: TekScopes@groups.io
Subject: Re: [TekScopes] Obfusctated email adresses in archive

Oddly enough, I get to see email addresses. At the top of emails is something like:

"TekScopes@groups.io; on behalf of; Harry Houdini <harryhoudini@magicianmail.com>"

I don't understand why, but there you go. I didn't do anything special to get this, perhaps it's because I am in the UK?

Colin.

-----Original Message-----
From: TekScopes@groups.io [mailto:TekScopes@groups.io] On Behalf Of David DiGiacomo
Sent: 22 June 2020 15:08
To: TekScopes
Subject: Re: [TekScopes] Obfusctated email adresses in archive

On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 6:53 AM David C. Partridge
<david.partridge@perdrix.co.uk> wrote:

Dennis,

It's possible to change the group settings to not hide email addresses in
the archive. If anyone is concerned about exposing their email address,
they probably already use a "throw-away" email address to post to the group.

Please could I request that you change the setting?
What is the reason for this request? Why can't you just use the
private message/email function of the groups.io website?


David DiGiacomo
 

On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 10:15 AM David C. Partridge
<david.partridge@perdrix.co.uk> wrote:

The reason I raised this is that loads of our users regularly complain that they can't use the email addresses they see in the archive because they are obfuscated by groups.io.

As it's simple to change - I asked.
I would greatly prefer to educate those people to use the groups.io PM
facility, rather than retroactively expose all posters to having their
email addresses scraped.


ArtekManuals <manuals@...>
 

David G

OK ...I'll bite ....How do I do that from a Email Client without going to web site

{SNIP}

Dave
manuals@artekmanuals.com

What is the reason for this request? Why can't you just use the
private message/email function of the groups.io website?

--
Dave
Manuals@ArtekManuals.com
www.ArtekManuals.com
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus


Chuck Harris <cfharris@...>
 

From an email client, most of the time, the member's email address is in
plain text in the "FROM:" heading in the received email. Right click on
that address, and click on "Compose email" and you are good to go.

Some little bit of the time, notably yahoo addresses, you will have to
remove some silly stuff and fix the address yourself.

You will see something like:

<bloofie=yahoo.com@groups.io>

Remove the "<", ">", "@" and the "groups.io", and change the "=" to an "@"
and you are good to go.

And, in a grand total of one or two cases, where the member didn't have
an email address registered with yahoo.com, and still doesn't have one for
groups.io... then you are out of luck.

-Chuck Harris

ArtekManuals wrote:

David G

OK ...I'll bite ....How do I do that from a Email Client without going to web site

{SNIP}

Dave
manuals@artekmanuals.com
What is the reason for this request?  Why can't you just use the
private message/email function of the groups.io website?


David DiGiacomo
 

Dave, I don't know why you are bringing that up in the context of this
discussion, which is explicitly about the groups.io website.

Obviously, the settings change that the other Dave asked for wouldn't
have any effect on what happens in your email client.

However, since I like you, I will answer your (off topic) question
anyway. You can use whatever facility your email client has to
display the From: address of the message you want to reply to.
Depending on the way your email client works, you may have to cut and
paste that into the To: field of the reply. You didn't say what email
client you use, so I can't go into any more detail.

Of course, if your email client can't do that, or it's too cumbersome,
you can use the handy link provided in each message to go to the
groups.io website and use the PM facility there.

David

On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 10:33 AM ArtekManuals <manuals@artekmanuals.com> wrote:

David G

OK ...I'll bite ....How do I do that from a Email Client without going
to web site

{SNIP}

Dave
manuals@artekmanuals.com
What is the reason for this request? Why can't you just use the
private message/email function of the groups.io website?

--
Dave
Manuals@ArtekManuals.com
www.ArtekManuals.com


 

They could only be scraped by a member - they aren't accessible if you don't join the group.

David

-----Original Message-----
From: TekScopes@groups.io [mailto:TekScopes@groups.io] On Behalf Of David DiGiacomo
Sent: 22 June 2020 17:28
To: TekScopes
Subject: Re: [TekScopes] Obfusctated email adresses in archive

On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 10:15 AM David C. Partridge
<david.partridge@perdrix.co.uk> wrote:

The reason I raised this is that loads of our users regularly complain that they can't use the email addresses they see in the archive because they are obfuscated by groups.io.

As it's simple to change - I asked.
I would greatly prefer to educate those people to use the groups.io PM
facility, rather than retroactively expose all posters to having their
email addresses scraped.


Chuck Harris <cfharris@...>
 

That is absolutely true, and I have had it done on one
of our yahoo groups. The guy joined, planted some spam
bombs (set to go off months later) in the group's calendar,
slurped the email addresses of all of the members, and
then quit the group.

It was a small group, but embarrassing, never the less.

We leave the calendar function, the database function, email
addresses, and enclosures all disabled on our groups.

-Chuck Harris

David C. Partridge wrote:

They could only be scraped by a member - they aren't accessible if you don't join the group.

David

-----Original Message-----
From: TekScopes@groups.io [mailto:TekScopes@groups.io] On Behalf Of David DiGiacomo
Sent: 22 June 2020 17:28
To: TekScopes
Subject: Re: [TekScopes] Obfusctated email adresses in archive

On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 10:15 AM David C. Partridge
<david.partridge@perdrix.co.uk> wrote:

The reason I raised this is that loads of our users regularly complain that they can't use the email addresses they see in the archive because they are obfuscated by groups.io.

As it's simple to change - I asked.
I would greatly prefer to educate those people to use the groups.io PM
facility, rather than retroactively expose all posters to having their
email addresses scraped.







EJP
 

You can privately message the author of any message directly from the website archive, without needing to see ther real email address. I do it regularly. It isn't clear what the actual problem is here.

EJP


Siggi
 

I think the problem here is that evidently many of the group members have
trouble replying to an individual member. This is true both for email and
the web interface. In email there are two hurdles to overcome:

1. Figure out how to persuade your email client to reply to the sender
in the "From" address in the presence of the "Reply-To" header instructing
the client to reply to the group.
2. Some email addresses are mangled, such that a reply to the "From"
address is going to bounce. This is true for @aol.com and @yahoo.com
email addresses.

In the web interface it's also highly non-intuitive how to privately reply,
and it always takes me a couple of minutes to re-remember how to do this. I
believe this mode of private reply is reliably going to send an email to
the other party.
However there's the problem that now groups.io is constructing an email on
your behalf, which means the email won't have the I's dotted and the T's
crossed with regard to signatures and other spam mechanisms, and so those
messages are (more) likely to get snagged in spam filtering.

For my purposes, maybe the best thing to do for now, is to prominently link
the forum's help page any time people are requested to use a private reply:
https://groups.io/helpcenter/membersmanual/1/working-with-group-messages/using-the-group-s-website-to-post
.

Siggi

On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 7:17 AM EJP <esmond.pitt@bigpond.com> wrote:

You can privately message the author of any message directly from the
website archive, without needing to see ther real email address. I do it
regularly. It isn't clear what the actual problem is here.

EJP




ArtekManuals <manuals@...>
 

This largely changed with the move to groups .IO and the obsession with privacy. I found the easiest solution to this where the reply to email address has been obfuscated such as <john.doe=nonsense@yahoo.com>  and emails where relevant parts of the prior post are not quoted is to simply not reply at all, delete and move on . I always try to include my email address in my signature to avoid this problem for the reader.

Dave
manuals@artekmanuals.com

On 6/23/2020 9:24 AM, Siggi wrote:
I think the problem here is that evidently many of the group members have
trouble replying to an individual member. This is true both for email and
the web interface. In email there are two hurdles to overcome:

1. Figure out how to persuade your email client to reply to the sender
in the "From" address in the presence of the "Reply-To" header instructing
the client to reply to the group.
2. Some email addresses are mangled, such that a reply to the "From"
address is going to bounce. This is true for @aol.com and @yahoo.com
email addresses.

In the web interface it's also highly non-intuitive how to privately reply,
and it always takes me a couple of minutes to re-remember how to do this. I
believe this mode of private reply is reliably going to send an email to
the other party.
However there's the problem that now groups.io is constructing an email on
your behalf, which means the email won't have the I's dotted and the T's
crossed with regard to signatures and other spam mechanisms, and so those
messages are (more) likely to get snagged in spam filtering.

For my purposes, maybe the best thing to do for now, is to prominently link
the forum's help page any time people are requested to use a private reply:
https://groups.io/helpcenter/membersmanual/1/working-with-group-messages/using-the-group-s-website-to-post
.

Siggi

On Tue, Jun 23, 2020 at 7:17 AM EJP <esmond.pitt@bigpond.com> wrote:

You can privately message the author of any message directly from the
website archive, without needing to see ther real email address. I do it
regularly. It isn't clear what the actual problem is here.

EJP



--
Dave
Manuals@ArtekManuals.com
www.ArtekManuals.com
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus


Carsten Bormann
 

On 2020-06-23, at 15:38, ArtekManuals <manuals@artekmanuals.com> wrote:

This largely changed with the move to groups .IO and the obsession with privacy.
Well, yeah. Welcome the the 21st century. But the obfuscation in the web archives is not about “privacy”, it is because many people think they can evade spammers by hiding their email address. groups.io needs to follow this thinking or draw the ire from those people.

[My main email address is on 55000 web sites, google tells me, so I’m not among the people who care about hiding their addresses, but I have to work daily with people who do.]

The obfuscation is not really a problem for the senders of mail — as was said, the mailing list subscribers get to see the sender addresses, and in the web you can do a private response. The problems we have actually have had, happened when people included their addresses in the body of postings — no problem for mail participants, but obfuscated on the web (and lots of confusion, because those two subsets saw different things). Just don’t do that, then. This could be mitigated by not asking for the obfuscation in the group settings.

I found the easiest solution to this where the reply to email address has been obfuscated such as <john.doe=nonsense@yahoo.com>
As I said, the scheme you are mischaracterizing here (there is no “nonsense”, and no “@yahoo.com”) is not obfuscation. This is a necessary measure that all mailing lists need to do to avoid breakage due to SPF and DMARC. The encoding scheme is only applied to senders whose mail providers issue certain SPF records; it so obvious that spammers already know how to decode them. As a human, you can decode this by

1. Remove everything from the @ sign (the “@groups.io” part)
2. Turn the = into an @.

Let’s practice that with the message you are reading right now:
From address: cabocabo=gmail.com@groups.io
Step 1: cabocabo=gmail.com
Step 2: cabocabo@gmail.com

(Of course, because of the obfuscation mentioned above, the people reading this on the web won’t see anything useful here. But they didn’t see the from address in the first place.)

Let me stress again, there is no choice here, and no privacy considerations involved:
mailing list providers *HAVE* to do this these days.

(There needs to be a wiki that explains all this.)

Grüße, Carsten


 

Hi David,

I think "throw away" email addresses were uncommon during at least the first
10 years of TekScopes. The members who joined back then, like us, probably
used real email addresses.
Although "throw-away" email addresses are more available now I do not think
it is a good idea to make everyone's email addresses available to the
general public especially since any member can search our members list for
an email address right now. The current setting for this group is that the
Member Directory is visible to TekScopes members. If I am mistaken about
this (sometimes being the group owner lets me see things others cannot see)
please let me know.

I don't disagree that some members use "throw-away" email addresses but I
have no way to tell exactly how many of our 8,000+ members are using a
"throw-away" email address or their actual email addresses. But I think this
test I was able to do just a few minutes ago will tell us how many people
joining TekScopes today prefer an easy to get "throw-away" email addresses
instead of their own email address.

Just by luck I kept the last 109 requests to join TekScopes (3/17/2020 to
6/23/2020) because I have an Outlook rule that puts them in a separate
directory until I periodically delete them. Of those 109 there were 6
duplicate requests. Of the remaining 103 unique email addresses:
* 39 were "gmail" addresses;
* 7 were "Hotmail" addresses;
* 9 were "yahoo" addresses;
* 1 was an "aol" address.
If I give your assumption the benefit of the doubt and assume every one of
those was a "throw-away" address then there were 56 "throw-away" addresses
and 47 real addresses.

Essentially half of our newest members chose to use a real email address
even when it would have been easier now than ever to use a 'throw-away'
email address. This simple test I did tells me many members prefer to use
their real email address. Unless there is a compelling reason to change the
current setting I don't see a reason to change it.

I am not sure why so many members are unable to lookup a current members
email address. If they don't know how then On-line Help available from the
TekScopes Home Page at:
https://groups.io/helpcenter

This can probably explain how to do many other things they have questions
about as well as help them find a member's email address. How to view the
Member's Directory is explained at:
https://groups.io/helpcenter/membersmanual/1/viewing-the-directory.

Dennis Tillman W7pF

-----Original Message-----
From: TekScopes@groups.io [mailto:TekScopes@groups.io] On Behalf Of David C.
Partridge
Sent: Monday, June 22, 2020 5:53 AM
To: TekScopes <Tekscopes@groups.io>
Subject: [TekScopes] Obfusctated email adresses in archive

Dennis,

It's possible to change the group settings to not hide email addresses in
the archive. If anyone is concerned about exposing their email address,
they probably already use a "throw-away" email address to post to the group.

Please could I request that you change the setting?

Thanks
David






--
Dennis Tillman W7pF
TekScopes Moderator