2% Silver


John Griessen
 

On 6/21/20 10:35 AM, sdturne@q.com wrote:
Wow, that's a great price too. I hope it's not counterfeit...as Mouser is selling the stuff for over $100/lb.
Sean
Specifications

Brand: Kester
Series: 245
Core Type: Activated Rosin Flux Core
Wire Diameter: 0.031 in
Lead Content: 36 %
Elemental Composition: Sn/Pb/Ag
Flux Percent: 1.1%
Total Composition: Sn62/Pb36/Ag02
Solder Weight: 1 lb

https://www.rshughes.com/p/Kester-245-Lead-Solder-Wire-1-Lb-0-031-In-Wire-Diameter-Sn-Pb-Ag-Compound-36-Lead-Content-24-7150-8800/24_7150_8800/

--
John


snapdiode <snapdiode@...>
 

Boy am I happy I have my spools of Radio Shack Silver Solder!

Hoarding pays off, kids!


stevenhorii
 

I have heard that the major reason that the small spool of solder in the
500-series Tek scopes was usually gone because of its silver content. A
scrapper once told me that the ceramic terminal strips that Tek used had
silver fused to the grooves and was a reason that some scrappers would buy
up the older Tek scopes. I'm not sure the labor to retrieve that silver
would be worth it, but some scrappers went through the trouble.

The couple of spools of silver-bearing solder that I have I purchased
surplus years ago. I don't recall if Kester or Multicore had the silver
content listed or if you needed to know the Kester product number to figure
it out.

Steve H.

On Sun, Jun 21, 2020 at 3:39 PM snapdiode via groups.io <snapdiode=
yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Boy am I happy I have my spools of Radio Shack Silver Solder!

Hoarding pays off, kids!




Shirley Dulcey KE1L
 

The Radio Shack silver-bearing solder is back! You can order it from
radioshack.com. Not cheap, but most of us won't need a huge amount of it.

On Sun, Jun 21, 2020 at 3:39 PM snapdiode via groups.io <snapdiode=
yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Boy am I happy I have my spools of Radio Shack Silver Solder!

Hoarding pays off, kids!




J Mcvein
 

Just like the clipped in tuning tools, extender cards and Allen wrenches, the
little solder spools end up in the toolbox of the first tech who works on it.
The scrap value of a Tek item is that the wiring strips away from the Al
chassis so easily. Ooh..And all those audio triodes!

JimMc

-----Original Message-----
From: "stevenhorii" <sonodocsch@...>
Sent: Sunday, June 21, 2020 4:00pm
To: TekScopes@groups.io
Subject: Re: [TekScopes] 2% Silver



I have heard that the major reason that the small spool of solder in the
500-series Tek scopes was usually gone because of its silver content. A
scrapper once told me that the ceramic terminal strips that Tek used had
silver fused to the grooves and was a reason that some scrappers would buy
up the older Tek scopes. I'm not sure the labor to retrieve that silver
would be worth it, but some scrappers went through the trouble.

The couple of spools of silver-bearing solder that I have I purchased
surplus years ago. I don't recall if Kester or Multicore had the silver
content listed or if you needed to know the Kester product number to figure
it out.

Steve H.

On Sun, Jun 21, 2020 at 3:39 PM snapdiode via groups.io <snapdiode=
yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Boy am I happy I have my spools of Radio Shack Silver Solder!

Hoarding pays off, kids!




Reginald Beardsley
 

I bought a spool of 2% silver solder in preparation for reviving a 545, but the 545 went away during a move from Dallas to Houston.

I still have the solder, so if anyone needs a few feet, email me with an address and I'll stick some in an envelope. While it seems highly unlikely I'll need the solder myself, I'm not very good at predicting the future. So I don't want to get rid of the whole roll. But for anyone other than someone with an OCD complex about restoring old tube era Tek gear 3 ft should be enough solder.

Have Fun!
Reg


John Ferguson
 

Those spools of solder are funny - in our sort of use they last a lifetime. I still have at least 80% of the spool I bought in 2005 to build my Elecraft K2-100 and the antenna tuner.  All the projects since then have been little - using a foot or two each.

john ferguson

On 6/21/20 5:27 PM, Reginald Beardsley via groups.io wrote:
I bought a spool of 2% silver solder in preparation for reviving a 545, but the 545 went away during a move from Dallas to Houston.

I still have the solder, so if anyone needs a few feet, email me with an address and I'll stick some in an envelope. While it seems highly unlikely I'll need the solder myself, I'm not very good at predicting the future. So I don't want to get rid of the whole roll. But for anyone other than someone with an OCD complex about restoring old tube era Tek gear 3 ft should be enough solder.

Have Fun!
Reg


Randy.AB9GO
 

I purchased a 1 lb roll of Multicore 2% at of all things a farm equipment
show 4-5 years ago for $3.00! No one wanted because it was too thin. You
just never know where stuff like this is going to show up. I will probably
bite the bullet and buy a new roll when I need it. It makes some of the
prettiest joints you've ever seen. I use it on everything. On the other
end of the spectrum is lead free and unless I have to work on something
that is already lead free I'm just not buying it or using it. Awful awful
stuff.

randy.ab9go@...

This message sent to you from my mobile device via speech-to-text
technology.


Chuck Harris <cfharris@...>
 

The tektronix solder is definitely not lead free, and you definitely
do not want to be using lead free solder on the terminal strips in
a tektronix 500 series scope.

The Kester Sn62 solder makes beautiful joints, though.

-Chuck Harris

Randy.AB9GO wrote:

I purchased a 1 lb roll of Multicore 2% at of all things a farm equipment
show 4-5 years ago for $3.00! No one wanted because it was too thin. You
just never know where stuff like this is going to show up. I will probably
bite the bullet and buy a new roll when I need it. It makes some of the
prettiest joints you've ever seen. I use it on everything. On the other
end of the spectrum is lead free and unless I have to work on something
that is already lead free I'm just not buying it or using it. Awful awful
stuff.

randy.ab9go@...


Monty Montgomery
 

On Sun, Jun 21, 2020 at 6:29 PM Randy.AB9GO <randy.ab9go@...> wrote:
On the other
end of the spectrum is lead free and unless I have to work on something
that is already lead free I'm just not buying it or using it. Awful awful
stuff.
There's a million different kinds. Some are good enough I don't miss
lead, though time will tell if the joints hold up. Currently trying
out the new germanium doped varieties. Anyone else tried those? And
then, of course, there's bismuth.... Collect a few different types
and you can do four complete hands-off reflow passes to assemble
boards with components on both sides! Useful for hybrid attenuator
assemblies.

Still shouldn't mix any of it though, especially not with leaded joints.

Monty


Shirley Dulcey KE1L
 

Bismuth + lead is definitely a no-fly zone. Such an alloy can have a VERY
low melting point, well below 100C, possibly low enough that solder joints
will melt in normal use.

On the other hand, keeping some bismuth solder paste around is very handy
if you ever do rework of modern RoHS boards. SAC305 and similar alloys can
be challenging to rework because of their high melting points. Add a bit of
bismuth and you now have a joint that is easier and safer to rework and
where you can do it without disturbing other nearby solder joints.
Bismuth-based solder doesn't normally contain copper but the presence of
copper in joints is not a problem. The most common alloy is Sn42Bi58; there
are also versions where a small amount of silver is included.

I haven't tried the germanium-doped solder yet. I have been using a
lead-free solder with a bit of antimony for a long time, and I find it a
bit easier to work with than standard SAC305. Mine was a hamfest find years
ago; SparkFun now sells a similar solder.

On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 1:21 AM Monty Montgomery <xiphmont@...> wrote:

On Sun, Jun 21, 2020 at 6:29 PM Randy.AB9GO <randy.ab9go@...> wrote:
On the other
end of the spectrum is lead free and unless I have to work on something
that is already lead free I'm just not buying it or using it. Awful
awful
stuff.
There's a million different kinds. Some are good enough I don't miss
lead, though time will tell if the joints hold up. Currently trying
out the new germanium doped varieties. Anyone else tried those? And
then, of course, there's bismuth.... Collect a few different types
and you can do four complete hands-off reflow passes to assemble
boards with components on both sides! Useful for hybrid attenuator
assemblies.

Still shouldn't mix any of it though, especially not with leaded joints.

Monty




David Kuhn
 

"The tektronix solder is definitely not lead free, and you definitely
do not want to be using lead free solder on the terminal strips in
a tektronix 500 series scope. "

Hello Chuck. I thought they used "silver" solder on those? Is that not
lead free? If not, what does "Silver" solder mean?

Sorry, just curious.

Dave

On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 12:07 AM Chuck Harris <cfharris@...> wrote:

The tektronix solder is definitely not lead free, and you definitely
do not want to be using lead free solder on the terminal strips in
a tektronix 500 series scope.

The Kester Sn62 solder makes beautiful joints, though.

-Chuck Harris

Randy.AB9GO wrote:
I purchased a 1 lb roll of Multicore 2% at of all things a farm equipment
show 4-5 years ago for $3.00! No one wanted because it was too thin.
You
just never know where stuff like this is going to show up. I will
probably
bite the bullet and buy a new roll when I need it. It makes some of the
prettiest joints you've ever seen. I use it on everything. On the other
end of the spectrum is lead free and unless I have to work on something
that is already lead free I'm just not buying it or using it. Awful
awful
stuff.

randy.ab9go@...




Roy Morgan <k1lky68@...>
 

Reg,

I have a 545B and a 547, and would very much appreciate Getting a bit of the solder.

Thank you for the offer.

Roy Morgan
PO Box 101
Bernardston
MA. 01337

On Jun 21, 2020, at 5:27 PM, Reginald Beardsley via groups.io <pulaskite@...> wrote:

I bought a spool of 2% silver solder in preparation for reviving a 545, but the 545 went away during a move from Dallas to Houston.

I still have the solder, so if anyone needs a few feet, email me with an address and I'll stick some in an envelope. While it seems highly unlikely I'll need the solder myself, I'm not very good at predicting the future. So I don't want to get rid of the whole roll. But for anyone ...
3 ft should be enough solder.


Colin Herbert
 

"Silver Solder" is a hard solder used in making mechanical joints such as in jewellery. It melts at a relatively high temperature and is akin to brazing, i.e. "hard soldering". It contains silver, copper and zinc and maybe a little cadmium to get a lower melting-point. The "silver bearing" solder is akin to soft solder (used in making electrical joints) and contains a relatively low proportion of silver.
Colin.

-----Original Message-----
From: TekScopes@groups.io [mailto:TekScopes@groups.io] On Behalf Of David Kuhn
Sent: 22 June 2020 12:32
To: TekScopes@groups.io
Subject: Re: [TekScopes] 2% Silver

"The tektronix solder is definitely not lead free, and you definitely
do not want to be using lead free solder on the terminal strips in
a tektronix 500 series scope. "

Hello Chuck. I thought they used "silver" solder on those? Is that not
lead free? If not, what does "Silver" solder mean?

Sorry, just curious.

Dave

On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 12:07 AM Chuck Harris <cfharris@...> wrote:

The tektronix solder is definitely not lead free, and you definitely
do not want to be using lead free solder on the terminal strips in
a tektronix 500 series scope.

The Kester Sn62 solder makes beautiful joints, though.

-Chuck Harris

Randy.AB9GO wrote:
I purchased a 1 lb roll of Multicore 2% at of all things a farm equipment
show 4-5 years ago for $3.00! No one wanted because it was too thin.
You
just never know where stuff like this is going to show up. I will
probably
bite the bullet and buy a new roll when I need it. It makes some of the
prettiest joints you've ever seen. I use it on everything. On the other
end of the spectrum is lead free and unless I have to work on something
that is already lead free I'm just not buying it or using it. Awful
awful
stuff.

randy.ab9go@...




David Kuhn
 

" The "silver bearing" solder is akin to soft solder (used in making
electrical joints) and contains a relatively low proportion of silver."

Is that the type that was included inside the old 500 series scopes for
repairs? I understand that regular lead solder was not good for those
ceramic component strips in the scopes? Did it keep the plating from
unbounding to the ceramic? If that roll of solder is missing from the
scopes (and most likely is), what solder should be used for repairs? I
always thought it was some sort of silver solder? It must still contain
lead.

On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 7:52 AM Colin Herbert via groups.io <colingherbert=
blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:

"Silver Solder" is a hard solder used in making mechanical joints such as
in jewellery. It melts at a relatively high temperature and is akin to
brazing, i.e. "hard soldering". It contains silver, copper and zinc and
maybe a little cadmium to get a lower melting-point. The "silver bearing"
solder is akin to soft solder (used in making electrical joints) and
contains a relatively low proportion of silver.
Colin.

-----Original Message-----
From: TekScopes@groups.io [mailto:TekScopes@groups.io] On Behalf Of David
Kuhn
Sent: 22 June 2020 12:32
To: TekScopes@groups.io
Subject: Re: [TekScopes] 2% Silver

"The tektronix solder is definitely not lead free, and you definitely
do not want to be using lead free solder on the terminal strips in
a tektronix 500 series scope. "

Hello Chuck. I thought they used "silver" solder on those? Is that not
lead free? If not, what does "Silver" solder mean?

Sorry, just curious.

Dave

On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 12:07 AM Chuck Harris <cfharris@...> wrote:

The tektronix solder is definitely not lead free, and you definitely
do not want to be using lead free solder on the terminal strips in
a tektronix 500 series scope.

The Kester Sn62 solder makes beautiful joints, though.

-Chuck Harris

Randy.AB9GO wrote:
I purchased a 1 lb roll of Multicore 2% at of all things a farm
equipment
show 4-5 years ago for $3.00! No one wanted because it was too thin.
You
just never know where stuff like this is going to show up. I will
probably
bite the bullet and buy a new roll when I need it. It makes some of
the
prettiest joints you've ever seen. I use it on everything. On the
other
end of the spectrum is lead free and unless I have to work on something
that is already lead free I'm just not buying it or using it. Awful
awful
stuff.

randy.ab9go@...










Matt
 

Reg,

I would like to take you up on your generous offer. I could not figure out your e-mail address so I couldn't PM you.

Thanks!
Matt


David Holland
 

Yes, It is "leaded" (soft) silver solder.

My understanding is the plating is silver based, and if you dilute the
joint too much, by using un-silvered solder, then the plating will become
unstuck.

This is the stuff I bought for working on silver strips: (I bought mine
from PE, they're local.)

https://www.parts-express.com/wbt-0800-silver-solder-4-silver-content-1-8-lb--093-586

https://www.amazon.com/WBT-0800-Silver-Solder-Content/dp/B00125OCVU

MSDS is here:
https://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/more-info/wbt-08-series-silver-solder-4-percent-silver-content-msds.pdf


Its chock full of Tin, Lead, Silver, Bismuth, Antimony, and Induim. All
the things,a growing ceramic strip needs.... :-)

(Try to ignore the audio-phool verbiage on the PE page. Audio-Phools are
PE's primary market, but I'd rather have them around, catering to them,
than not here at all.)

David

On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 9:00 AM David Kuhn <Daveyk021@...> wrote:

" The "silver bearing" solder is akin to soft solder (used in making
electrical joints) and contains a relatively low proportion of silver."

Is that the type that was included inside the old 500 series scopes for
repairs? I understand that regular lead solder was not good for those
ceramic component strips in the scopes? Did it keep the plating from
unbounding to the ceramic? If that roll of solder is missing from the
scopes (and most likely is), what solder should be used for repairs? I
always thought it was some sort of silver solder? It must still contain
lead.

On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 7:52 AM Colin Herbert via groups.io
<colingherbert=
blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:

"Silver Solder" is a hard solder used in making mechanical joints such as
in jewellery. It melts at a relatively high temperature and is akin to
brazing, i.e. "hard soldering". It contains silver, copper and zinc and
maybe a little cadmium to get a lower melting-point. The "silver bearing"
solder is akin to soft solder (used in making electrical joints) and
contains a relatively low proportion of silver.
Colin.

-----Original Message-----
From: TekScopes@groups.io [mailto:TekScopes@groups.io] On Behalf Of
David
Kuhn
Sent: 22 June 2020 12:32
To: TekScopes@groups.io
Subject: Re: [TekScopes] 2% Silver

"The tektronix solder is definitely not lead free, and you definitely
do not want to be using lead free solder on the terminal strips in
a tektronix 500 series scope. "

Hello Chuck. I thought they used "silver" solder on those? Is that not
lead free? If not, what does "Silver" solder mean?

Sorry, just curious.

Dave

On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 12:07 AM Chuck Harris <cfharris@...>
wrote:

The tektronix solder is definitely not lead free, and you definitely
do not want to be using lead free solder on the terminal strips in
a tektronix 500 series scope.

The Kester Sn62 solder makes beautiful joints, though.

-Chuck Harris

Randy.AB9GO wrote:
I purchased a 1 lb roll of Multicore 2% at of all things a farm
equipment
show 4-5 years ago for $3.00! No one wanted because it was too
thin.
You
just never know where stuff like this is going to show up. I will
probably
bite the bullet and buy a new roll when I need it. It makes some of
the
prettiest joints you've ever seen. I use it on everything. On the
other
end of the spectrum is lead free and unless I have to work on
something
that is already lead free I'm just not buying it or using it. Awful
awful
stuff.

randy.ab9go@...












Glenn Little
 

Regular tin/lead solder will leach the silver out of the ceramic, over time.
The silver is added to the alloy to prevent this leaching.
IIRC Tektronix used an alloy with 3% silver.
The common alloy that can be found today is 2% silver.
Serves the same purpose.

On the same note, ERSIN made a solder called save-a-bit when soldering irons had a copper tip.
They added copper to the alloy to prevent the erosion of the tip from the normal lead/tin alloy.

Glenn

On 6/22/2020 8:59 AM, David Kuhn wrote:
" The "silver bearing" solder is akin to soft solder (used in making
electrical joints) and contains a relatively low proportion of silver."

Is that the type that was included inside the old 500 series scopes for
repairs? I understand that regular lead solder was not good for those
ceramic component strips in the scopes? Did it keep the plating from
unbounding to the ceramic? If that roll of solder is missing from the
scopes (and most likely is), what solder should be used for repairs? I
always thought it was some sort of silver solder? It must still contain
lead.

On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 7:52 AM Colin Herbert via groups.io <colingherbert=
blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:

"Silver Solder" is a hard solder used in making mechanical joints such as
in jewellery. It melts at a relatively high temperature and is akin to
brazing, i.e. "hard soldering". It contains silver, copper and zinc and
maybe a little cadmium to get a lower melting-point. The "silver bearing"
solder is akin to soft solder (used in making electrical joints) and
contains a relatively low proportion of silver.
Colin.

-----Original Message-----
From: TekScopes@groups.io [mailto:TekScopes@groups.io] On Behalf Of David
Kuhn
Sent: 22 June 2020 12:32
To: TekScopes@groups.io
Subject: Re: [TekScopes] 2% Silver

"The tektronix solder is definitely not lead free, and you definitely
do not want to be using lead free solder on the terminal strips in
a tektronix 500 series scope. "

Hello Chuck. I thought they used "silver" solder on those? Is that not
lead free? If not, what does "Silver" solder mean?

Sorry, just curious.

Dave

On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 12:07 AM Chuck Harris <cfharris@...> wrote:

The tektronix solder is definitely not lead free, and you definitely
do not want to be using lead free solder on the terminal strips in
a tektronix 500 series scope.

The Kester Sn62 solder makes beautiful joints, though.

-Chuck Harris

Randy.AB9GO wrote:
I purchased a 1 lb roll of Multicore 2% at of all things a farm
equipment
show 4-5 years ago for $3.00! No one wanted because it was too thin.
You
just never know where stuff like this is going to show up. I will
probably
bite the bullet and buy a new roll when I need it. It makes some of
the
prettiest joints you've ever seen. I use it on everything. On the
other
end of the spectrum is lead free and unless I have to work on something
that is already lead free I'm just not buying it or using it. Awful
awful
stuff.

randy.ab9go@...







--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Glenn Little ARRL Technical Specialist QCWA LM 28417
Amateur Callsign: WB4UIV wb4uiv@... AMSAT LM 2178
QTH: Goose Creek, SC USA (EM92xx) USSVI LM NRA LM SBE ARRL TAPR
"It is not the class of license that the Amateur holds but the class
of the Amateur that holds the license"


Colin Herbert
 

"On the same note, ERSIN made a solder called save-a-bit when soldering irons had a copper tip.
They added copper to the alloy to prevent the erosion of the tip from the normal lead/tin alloy.
Glenn"

I think I remember it as Ersin "Savbit". Incidentally, soldering-iron tips are _still_ made from copper, it is just that they are now given a plating of iron, which prevents the copper from being dissolved by the molten solder (allegedly). Such bits should not be filed to renew the tip, because that removes the protective iron plating. The problem is, we all do it when our bits become pitted, but perhaps such filing is limited to the very end of the bit? I suspect that most common solder used in electronics still contains a little copper.

Colin.


Chuck Harris <cfharris@...>
 

A little background information:

Tektronix made its own ceramic terminal strips. Before
they made them, they made their own micarta strips with
riveted turret posts.

I'm guessing that one of the workers, possibly one of the
women on the assembly line, had some experience making
ceramic pottery, and got the idea. It is an obvious thought
progression: plastic insulates, but burns when soldered, need
something that doesn't burn... wait! Ceramic doesn't burn...

They found that they could with very little effort, mass
produce the ceramic strips more quickly, and at a much lower
cost than the riveted turret strips, so they economized.

One of the interesting characteristics of silver metal is
it will fuse with alumina ceramic at high temperature.
Tektronix molded the terminal strips, and then painted each
notch with a flaked silver metal paint. When they fired
the ceramic, the binder in the paint burned away, and the
silver metal "tinned" the ceramic, just like solder tins
copper.

Nature abhors a vacuum. When ordinary 60:40 tin/lead solder
(the standard for electronics assembly at the time) is used
to solder the strips, the molten solder dissolves a little
of the silver into solution, forming a tin/silver/lead alloy
that is very similar to the alloy of tin/silver/lead that
tektronix used in their factory.

If the tin/lead reaches the ceramic, the silver will instantly
be rejected from the ceramic, and you lose your mechanical
attachment of the parts to the terminal strip.

You can use ordinary 60:40 tin lead solder to rework a joint
on the terminal strips, but each time you heat the joint, and
apply more tin/lead solder, more of the silver will alloy with
the solder, and quicker than you would like, it will no longer
stick to the ceramic, as tin/lead/silver can not "tin" alumina
ceramic.

The whole idea behind using tin/silver/lead alloy solder is that
it already has quite a lot of silver in it, and will not leach
away the silver on the ceramic terminals as quickly as it would
if it had no silver already in the alloy.

But mark my words, even if you do use the correct silver solder,
if you dawdle with a hot iron on the joint, you can still
destroy the bond of the silver to the ceramic.

So, use a high wattage (50-70W), temperature regulated to 600-700F
iron with a flat sided chisel tip, and get in, get done, and get
out of the joint.

And, do not ever put the chisel tip in the notch, trying to heat
the lead that way, it will crack the ceramic every time. Put
one of the flats of the chisel tip on the side of the terminal
strip, and let the adjacent flat, or the tip, touch the lead,
and heat the joint that way. Stay out of the notch!

-Chuck Harris



David Kuhn wrote:

"The tektronix solder is definitely not lead free, and you definitely
do not want to be using lead free solder on the terminal strips in
a tektronix 500 series scope. "

Hello Chuck. I thought they used "silver" solder on those? Is that not
lead free? If not, what does "Silver" solder mean?

Sorry, just curious.

Dave

On Mon, Jun 22, 2020 at 12:07 AM Chuck Harris <cfharris@...> wrote:

The tektronix solder is definitely not lead free, and you definitely
do not want to be using lead free solder on the terminal strips in
a tektronix 500 series scope.

The Kester Sn62 solder makes beautiful joints, though.

-Chuck Harris

Randy.AB9GO wrote:
I purchased a 1 lb roll of Multicore 2% at of all things a farm equipment
show 4-5 years ago for $3.00! No one wanted because it was too thin.
You
just never know where stuff like this is going to show up. I will
probably
bite the bullet and buy a new roll when I need it. It makes some of the
prettiest joints you've ever seen. I use it on everything. On the other
end of the spectrum is lead free and unless I have to work on something
that is already lead free I'm just not buying it or using it. Awful
awful
stuff.

randy.ab9go@...