465M


Rey
 

I just saw a video of a 465M repair and my GOD what a beautiful scope. Nothing like my 465. Also the same guy had a 305 also very cool. Scope envy.
By the way I got mine going again, not 100%, got a bunch of caps coming and a couple of pieces of test equipment.


Ananda
 

Hi Rey,
Can you send a link to the video you saw? To my knowledge there are very few on the 465M. I may have seen what you are referring to but if in case you stumbled upon a different one...

I had my first 465M which I got over 20 years back. It failed a couple of years back and I made the HV block my self as they are not available. Just a couple of months back it failed again. This time, it is the time base module. It also somehow screwed up the main board in the process.

I got a time base, and the main board from a good soul at the old TEK museum in Beaverton and have a working unit now. It still has some funny thing like a flicker which I am trying to fix. As a result I am always looking for any info on the 465M.

Thanks in advance.

Ananda


Bert Haskins
 

On 9/6/2021 12:38 PM, Rey via groups.io wrote:
I just saw a video of a 465M repair and my GOD what a beautiful scope. Nothing like my 465. Also the same guy had a 305 also very cool. Scope envy.
By the way I got mine going again, not 100%, got a bunch of caps coming and a couple of pieces of test equipment.
I have and have had several 465M scopes.

Back in the day I was working with jet engine vane/blade grinding machines and there was always coolant vapor in the air.

Scopes with  fans would pull the vapor in and things could really get messy inside.

The 465M was just the answer because of being sealed.

With the top cover off they are a thing of beauty.

- Bert


n4buq
 

No fan so very quiet. Sharp traces as well. I really like my 465M.

Thanks,
Barry - N4BUQ

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bert Haskins" <bhaskins@chartermi.net>
To: TekScopes@groups.io
Sent: Monday, September 6, 2021 3:14:23 PM
Subject: Re: [TekScopes] 465M


On 9/6/2021 12:38 PM, Rey via groups.io wrote:
I just saw a video of a 465M repair and my GOD what a beautiful scope.
Nothing like my 465. Also the same guy had a 305 also very cool. Scope
envy.
By the way I got mine going again, not 100%, got a bunch of caps coming and
a couple of pieces of test equipment.
I have and have had several 465M scopes.

Back in the day I was working with jet engine vane/blade grinding
machines and there was always coolant vapor in the air.

Scopes with  fans would pull the vapor in and things could really get
messy inside.

The 465M was just the answer because of being sealed.

With the top cover off they are a thing of beauty.

- Bert







Ananda
 

True, it is absolutely silent. I am surprised at the lack of discussions on the 465M everywhere.


Rey
 

Ask and you should receive.
https://youtu.be/9d7cMVjBHQo


Ananda
 

Ah! Thanks. I have seen this one. He has one more on the 465M where he replaced that tantalum in the HV cage.. There is one thread on EEV blog that is a few years old where someone did some extensive work on the HV supply also. That is all the interesting/enlightening stuff I have seen on the 465M.

In the above video, he seems to be cleaning the pot by putting the cleaning fluid through the shaft opening which I would not do as it will get rid of the lubrication on the shaft.


pdxareaid
 

i have a 465M and a few 465Bs. I actually prefer it for its modularity and ease of access. the only thing that bothers me is the transistors are not socketed.
when i need a scope, i reach for it before i reach for a 465B.


Michael W. Lynch
 

My first experience with these scopes was when I built a replacement HV Multiplier for my 455, which is the 50Mhz Predecessor of the 465M. This was an interesting project and the scope still resides on my rack of bench scopes.

Having repaired numerous other 4XX series compared to the 455 and 465M, I will add this:
The 455/465M is not nearly as robust as the others. This scope is built with a high regard for "low" cost, a big brother to the T9xx series.. Lots of breakable plastic parts, not the least of which is the case.
The CRT is the same as the 465/465B, so any difference in sharpness is in the electronics.
The "soldered" IC's and Transistors reduce cost and increase reliability. There is less dependence on discrete components and more on Integrated Circuits. This reduces cost also makes the scope somewhat more difficult to diagnose and repair.
The modular construction is nice, and unfortunate that this was not carried over to more scopes. Ease of repair is generally better on the 455/465M, however, some of the components on the lower "main" board can be difficult to reach without more extensive disassembly.
Yes, it has no fan, but the fan of the 4xx series has never been known as "loud", I rate them as "barely audible", even in a "quiet" shop. Since I have a TDS460A, I am well aware of what a "loud" fan sounds like.

I do not "dislike" the 455/465M, If I did, I would not have bought one; it is after all just a "less expensive" version of the iconic 465B. The 465M is just as capable as the original 465B, without the "military grade" construction. I hope to see more discussion of this branch of the family tree as I always welcome the chance to learn! Thanks for sharing.

--
Michael Lynch
Dardanelle, AR


Ananda
 

I agree with Michael's points very much. Also regretfully, TEK created the HV block with all the HV components and the tripler in one unit that is sealed. I guess the idea would have been to make it easier to repair them faster in the field. I now have one working unit, one non working unit, a main board, a couple of CRTs etc. Still not decided what to keep and what to part with.
Meanwhile I have a 2215 which is much lighter than the 465M. It has a smaller footprint and does not take so much space. One of these days I have to decide what to do!


Carl Hallberg
 

I have a 465M crt and need a 2215 crt.  Never was able to check 465m crt as HV failed.  Can check heater.
Carl Hallberg

On Tuesday, September 7, 2021, 04:40:55 PM CDT, Ananda via groups.io <adesilva_1999=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:





I agree with Michael's points very much. Also regretfully, TEK created the HV block with all the HV components and the tripler in one unit that is sealed. I guess the idea would have been to make it easier to repair them faster in the field. I now have one working unit, one non working unit, a main board, a couple of CRTs etc. Still not decided what to keep and what to part with.
Meanwhile I have a 2215 which is much lighter than the 465M. It has a smaller footprint and does not take so much space. One of these days I have to decide what to do!


Ananda
 

If you needed the CRT for 465M, I would have given one. The 2215 was given to me by a generous TEK enthusiast in Beaverton and it is working well.


 

Michael,

After reading this thread I was looking for a 465M to add to my collection, but I was discouraged to find that it only has MIXED horizontal mode (or so it appears from pictures on the TekWiki and eBay). I'm not a huge fan of MIXED mode, even though that's what my favorite scopes (475/A) have. If I were going to add a 465-variant to my collection I would prefer a 475B, which has ALT horizontal mode.

I understand the impulse to say that the 465M is "just a 'less expensive' version of the iconic 475B," but it appears to me that, while it's controls, and the use of integrated circuits are similar to the 465B, it's really more like the 465 in terms of features.

Having some experience with the 475 and 475A I was surprised to discover that the 465 does not make use of nearly as many ICs as the 475 does. Maybe this reflects different economies of scale at the time that 465 and 475 were designed, or maybe it was the different choices from different engineering teams; it's not the first thing that I have found surprising about the engineering in scopes of this era. My modern attitude is that ICs are cheaper and so you would use them more in lower end equipment, but my guess is that the ICs that were used in the 475, but not in the 465, were in fact more expensive, and were used in the 475 because higher performance was required than could be achieved with discrete components.

-- Jeff Dutky


Tom Lee
 

Jeff,

Volume determines the economics of ICs. The marginal cost of an IC is very low only in high volume. The first one costs a bundle. In the case of relatively low volume products like test equipment, ICs are relatively expensive.

The 465 used largely off-the-shelf discretes because the performance targets could be met that way. The 465 and 475 design teams had a fair overlap in personnel, but the 475's higher bandwidth pushed them to favor ICs in certain critical parts of the design. The 485, which actually debuted before the 465/475, is full of Tek-custom ICs because the 350MHz bandwidth was simply not attainable with available discretes. The catalog price reflects the cost of the ICs (and then some).

Cheers
Tom

--
Prof. Thomas H. Lee
Allen Ctr., Rm. 205
350 Jane Stanford Way
Stanford University
Stanford, CA 94305-4070
http://www-smirc.stanford.edu

On 9/7/2021 19:40, Jeff Dutky wrote:
Michael,

After reading this thread I was looking for a 465M to add to my collection, but I was discouraged to find that it only has MIXED horizontal mode (or so it appears from pictures on the TekWiki and eBay). I'm not a huge fan of MIXED mode, even though that's what my favorite scopes (475/A) have. If I were going to add a 465-variant to my collection I would prefer a 475B, which has ALT horizontal mode.

I understand the impulse to say that the 465M is "just a 'less expensive' version of the iconic 475B," but it appears to me that, while it's controls, and the use of integrated circuits are similar to the 465B, it's really more like the 465 in terms of features.

Having some experience with the 475 and 475A I was surprised to discover that the 465 does not make use of nearly as many ICs as the 475 does. Maybe this reflects different economies of scale at the time that 465 and 475 were designed, or maybe it was the different choices from different engineering teams; it's not the first thing that I have found surprising about the engineering in scopes of this era. My modern attitude is that ICs are cheaper and so you would use them more in lower end equipment, but my guess is that the ICs that were used in the 475, but not in the 465, were in fact more expensive, and were used in the 475 because higher performance was required than could be achieved with discrete components.

-- Jeff Dutky




Michael W. Lynch
 

On Tue, Sep 7, 2021 at 09:40 PM, Jeff Dutky wrote:


Michael,

After reading this thread I was looking for a 465M to add to my collection,
but I was discouraged to find that it only has MIXED horizontal mode (or so it
appears from pictures on the TekWiki and eBay). I'm not a huge fan of MIXED
mode, even though that's what my favorite scopes (475/A) have.
Correct. the 455 and 465M both use "mixed mode", Not the more modern ALT Horizontal Mode.

If I were going to add a 465-variant to my collection I would prefer a 475B, which has ALT
horizontal mode.
I am guessing that you meant a 465B?

I bought a 455 because it was working, unusual, cheap and in astounding condition for its age. Not necessarily in that order.


I understand the impulse to say that the 465M is "just a 'less expensive'
version of the iconic 475B," but it appears to me that, while it's controls,
and the use of integrated circuits are similar to the 465B, it's really more
like the 465 in terms of features.
A mistake on my part, I should have said "a less expensive version of the 465", not the "B" model. It is made to look much like the 465B with the smaller front panel buttons. Probably for continuity of appearance?

Having some experience with the 475 and 475A I was surprised to discover that
the 465 does not make use of nearly as many ICs as the 475 does. Maybe this
reflects different economies of scale at the time that 465 and 475 were
designed, or maybe it was the different choices from different engineering
teams; it's not the first thing that I have found surprising about the
engineering in scopes of this era.
One item that is peculiar to the 455 and 465M is the CH1 & 2 Preamp and Channel switching IC 155-0155-00 or 155-0120-00. This is a considerable departure from the 465 or 465B. The vertical circuitry is simplified through the use of this IC. The 455/465M also use the Horz Preamp IC, A and B sweep generator IC's rather than the 465/465B's discrete versions. It appears that TEK made careful use of IC's to eliminate a substantial number of discrete components. My feeling is that since this was a "budget" build, that the bean counters probably made engineers justify every item.

My modern attitude is that ICs are cheaper
and so you would use them more in lower end equipment, but my guess is that
the ICs that were used in the 475, but not in the 465, were in fact more
expensive, and were used in the 475 because higher performance was required
than could be achieved with discrete components.
I agree and the cost difference between the 465/465B and the 475/475A is indicative of this.
--
Michael Lynch
Dardanelle, AR


Ananda
 

Can the Time base module cause damage to the main board or the CRT itself in these scopes?


 

Michael Lynch wrote:

If I were going to add a 465-variant to my collection I would prefer a 475B
I am guessing that you meant a 465B?
Yes, that is what I meant. I wish that Tek had made a version of the 475 with ALT horizontal mode, but the 465B is almost close enough. The fact that you can see three simultaneous traces on a 465B also makes it interesting to me. I had kind of hoped that the 465M was more like the 465B. I had not realized that it was even more cut down for the sake of cost savings.

I guess that you can view something like the 2465 as the "B" version of the 475 or 485, both because of the 2465's other similarities to the 485 (e.g. higher bandwidth and 50 ohm inputs with overload protection), and because you get the external trigger channels that can be viewed on the display along with Ch 1 and 2. You even get other goodies that the 465B doesn't have, like readout, cursors, and (optionally) a counter/timer.

I have a 2465, which I use all the time, and really like, but I don't like that the price of all those extra goodies was that the controls became much less "direct" and more "fly-by-wire." I especially don't like the position controls that are both laggy, and have a tendency to get out of sync with the on-screen position (they could have remedied that by using knobs that didn't have an indicator, and pots that didn't have a stop, as they did with the cursor controls).

I am ridiculously picky about these things.

-- Jeff Dutky


Jim Ford
 

Ah, the lag; that's why I am not interested in a 2465. I had one several decades ago at work, and it drove me nuts. No, you're not ridiculously picky, unless we both are!

7000 series for me, thank you. And someday, an 11800 series.

Jim Ford

------ Original Message ------
From: "Jeff Dutky" <jeff.dutky@gmail.com>
To: TekScopes@groups.io
Sent: 9/9/2021 1:36:26 AM
Subject: Re: [TekScopes] 465M

Michael Lynch wrote:

> If I were going to add a 465-variant to my collection I would prefer a 475B

I am guessing that you meant a 465B?
Yes, that is what I meant. I wish that Tek had made a version of the 475 with ALT horizontal mode, but the 465B is almost close enough. The fact that you can see three simultaneous traces on a 465B also makes it interesting to me. I had kind of hoped that the 465M was more like the 465B. I had not realized that it was even more cut down for the sake of cost savings.

I guess that you can view something like the 2465 as the "B" version of the 475 or 485, both because of the 2465's other similarities to the 485 (e.g. higher bandwidth and 50 ohm inputs with overload protection), and because you get the external trigger channels that can be viewed on the display along with Ch 1 and 2. You even get other goodies that the 465B doesn't have, like readout, cursors, and (optionally) a counter/timer.

I have a 2465, which I use all the time, and really like, but I don't like that the price of all those extra goodies was that the controls became much less "direct" and more "fly-by-wire." I especially don't like the position controls that are both laggy, and have a tendency to get out of sync with the on-screen position (they could have remedied that by using knobs that didn't have an indicator, and pots that didn't have a stop, as they did with the cursor controls).

I am ridiculously picky about these things.

-- Jeff Dutky





 

The 465B can display 8 traces simultaneously. I've uploaded a video demonstration: https://youtu.be/pHa7uKUUt1I


--
Bob Haas


 

Bob,

I had not realized that the ADD vertical mode displayed as a separate traces. It's obvious on reflection, since the other vertical mode buttons are orthogonal and additive, but I don't have a 465B, so I never gave it that much thought.

That's pretty damn cool.

-- Jeff Dutky