Topics

Packaging 7854 scope for shipment?

Brad Thompson
 

David Holland wrote on 5/27/2019 7:16 PM:

As a somewhat off topic example of how *not* to pack....
<Gory details snipped>

Hello, David and the group--

My thanks go to all who responded, and I hope that all of the good advice
reaches the archives to help future shippers.

Before I proceed any further, I'll prepare a description of this 7854 and its
condition. I'm located in western NH and I may offer it FS/local pickup as
a first resort (although this area isn't exactly a hotbed of interest in electronics).

Thanks again to all, and 73--

Brad  AA1IP

David Holland
 

As a somewhat off topic example of how *not* to pack....

https://photos.app.goo.gl/PscEindwAHv71JqH9

Step 1) Do not go to the local U-HAUL place, and pick up a short wardrobe box.
Step 2) Do not fill 1/2 way with peanuts.
Step 3) Do not place large heavy device on peanuts.
Step 4) Do not fill remainder with peanuts.
Step 5) Do not ship in this condition.

Its a RM567. Surprisingly it appears to have survived the journey
(AZ to OH - via Fedex)

To keep it OT: Agreed, the foam/foam in place & double boxing are the
general recommended methods for shipping large heavy boxes. That
being said, I can see where that might be somewhat difficult to do
with a 7854, and is starting to sound like freight.

FWIW, I've also heard (via the antique radio guys) that Greyhound is
not a bad way to ship large heavy things and they may not receive as
much abuse as they would via the regular shippers.

David

On Mon, May 27, 2019 at 6:16 PM John Griessen <john@...> wrote:

On 5/25/19 10:19 PM, Dennis Tillman W7PF wrote:
Have you eve received anything that was packed with "Foam in Place". It is simple and quite robust.
That foam is really a good density and yieldingness, and carves easily. I reuse big chunks of it to pack things
by carving it with a long serrated knife, (usually for bread).


John Griessen
 

On 5/25/19 10:19 PM, Dennis Tillman W7PF wrote:
Have you eve received anything that was packed with "Foam in Place". It is simple and quite robust.
That foam is really a good density and yieldingness, and carves easily. I reuse big chunks of it to pack things
by carving it with a long serrated knife, (usually for bread).

John Griessen
 

On 5/25/19 3:23 PM, Brad Thompson wrote:
I'd plan on swaddling the scope in multiple layers of bubble-wrap, with a sheet
of resilient foam to protect the front panel.
above is not enough. I like Dave D's methods below:

On 5/25/19 5:49 PM, Dave Daniel wrote:> 1. Accumulate sufficient polyethylene foam. Note that polyethylene foam pieces may be cut and glued together using small amounts
of epoxy to make custom-sized pieces.

2. Select a box that has at least 2" of space around the 7854. 3" or 4" will be better.

3. I'd lay a piece of foam in the bottom of the box which fits the entire bottom of the box (see #6, below) , cut another piece to
fit up against the rear power supply fins and which extends rearward at least 1/2" beyond the rear enclosure that sits above the
power supply, thus protecting the connectors on that rear enclosure.

4. Cut a piece of foam that fits between the front of the box and the plug-in bay (ship the plug-ins separately) and which
extended up to just below the CRT bezel, leaving the CRT face and front panel controls at least 1/2" clear of the box.

5. Stuff foam down along the sides of the 'scope. These pieces would be longer than they are tall, but they need not run the
entire length of the side of the box. The key here is to prevent side motion and provide compliance between the sides of the
'scope and the box. If the pieces move or slip, it won't matter as long as they stay captured between the 'scope sides and the box.
I find styrofoam TV packing parts can be useful also, but will need to be 4 inches surround,
and still have some of the bouncy polyethylene foam in the mix for its correct resilience, springiness in
decelerating your scope in a total oaf 4 inches distance.
polyurethane upholstery foam is not dense enough.
Corners need to be tough stuff since the forces
are concentrated on a point, ( the corner). multi layered corrugated paper corners can be good.
Polyethylene foam solid in the corners (4" thick with a corner dent in it), is great.

If you pack it full of plugins, use 6 " at the front and back, not 4".

 

Hi Brad,
Have you eve received anything that was packed with "Foam in Place". It is simple and quite robust. I have requested it whenever I win something that is fragile and valuable.
Dennis Tillman W7PF

-----Original Message-----
From: Brad Thompson, Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2019 1:24 PM
Subject: [TekScopes] Packaging 7854 scope for shipment?

Hello--

I'm thinking of offering my 7854 FS and I'd appreciate advice on packaging it for survival on shipment to U.S. addresses. IIRC, packing the plug-ins and keyboard separately is advisable, as is double-boxing the mainframe.
I'd plan on swaddling the scope in multiple layers of bubble-wrap, with a sheet of resilient foam to protect the front panel.

Our local pack-and-ship store has a bad reputation. Has anyone successfully used a commercial mover that offers pack-and-ship services?

If packing turns out to be a hassle, I'll list it for local pickup only.

Thanks in advance, and 73--

Brad AA1IP




--
Dennis Tillman W7PF
TekScopes Moderator

Dave Seiter
 

Since boxes of the correct size can be hard to come by, I almost always use cardboard from bicycle shops and construct my own boxes.  The cardboard is free, and you get a custom fit, but it does take a while.  The other advantage is that bicycle box cardboard is heavier than most and usually triwall.  I like to use PE foam planking when I can get it (the type quality electronics get shipped in), and design the outer box as a sacrificial protector of the inner box.  The boxes get large quickly this way, and usually exceed the limit imposed by USPS (108"?), so UPS/FEDEX is about the only shipping method.  Most pack and ship places rarely deal with items that are of similar size/weight/fragility, so they really shouldn't be expected to box up a scope correctly; I know I wouldn't trust them even if they said they had the experience.  
I've heard that Fastenal will ship large items between stores safely, but I've never used them, and they would have the same location restrictions as Greyhound.
-Dave

On Saturday, May 25, 2019, 1:24:07 PM PDT, Brad Thompson <brad.thompsonaa1ip@...> wrote:

Hello--

I'm thinking of offering my 7854 FS and I'd appreciate advice on
packaging it
for survival  on shipment to U.S. addresses. IIRC, packing the plug-ins and
keyboard separately is advisable,  as is double-boxing the mainframe.
I'd plan on swaddling the scope in multiple layers of bubble-wrap, with
a sheet
of resilient foam to protect the front panel.

Our local pack-and-ship store has a bad reputation. Has anyone
successfully used a
commercial mover that offers pack-and-ship services?

If packing turns out to be a hassle, I'll list it for local pickup only.

Thanks in advance, and 73--

Brad  AA1IP
--
Sent from Postbox <https://www.postbox-inc.com>

David DiGiacomo
 

On Sat, May 25, 2019 at 2:24 PM Brad Thompson
<brad.thompsonaa1ip@...> wrote:
I'm thinking of offering my 7854 FS and I'd appreciate advice on
packaging it
for survival on shipment to U.S. addresses. IIRC, packing the plug-ins and
keyboard separately is advisable, as is double-boxing the mainframe.
I'd plan on swaddling the scope in multiple layers of bubble-wrap, with
a sheet
of resilient foam to protect the front panel.
I have always had success with that basic method. Just to be clear,
the thick soft foam goes over the front before the bubble wrap goes
around. 24" wide bubble wrap should be used. I think it's better to
ship with plugins installed, since they provide extra rigidity to the
plugin bay. You need to have a heavy duty or doublewall box -
ordinary singlewall is too weak. I usually make cardboard or
styrofoam corner blocks.

Dave Daniel
 

Arrggghhh... see below ....

DaveD


On 5/25/2019 6:49 PM, Dave Daniel via Groups.Io wrote:
Brad,

I have purchased four 7xxx 'scopes and had them shipped to me. None of them were packed well, not even remotely. The fact that they arrived intact has always surprised me. I've also purchased an HP 8566, HP 8660D and other very heavy items, most of which were not packed well.

When contemplating heavy, fragile items, physics is your guide, in particular Newton's second law (F=ma). You have to assume that the package will suffer at least a three-foot fall onto a concrete surface (e.g., from the shipper's conveyor system onto a concrete floor) and plan to protect the instrument from that sudden deceleration.

An instrument packed rigidly in a box that suffers such a drop will experience a very high G-force when the floor decelerates to box to zero m/s. This places tremendous strain on the internals of the instrument. For a 'scope, this includes possibly breaking the internal CRT connections. So the trick is to pack the instrument such that the packaging material will decelerate the abrupt stop against the floor as gently as possible. This requires that you use packing material that is somewhat compliant. Taking the instrument to someone who can package it in semi-rigid plastic-covered spray foam is very good if you can find someone to do this. Uline (expensive) provides kits for doing this yourself, but they are expensive. In my experience, polyethylene foam is the best for this. See, for instance, https://www.thefoamfactory.com/closedcellfoam/polyethylene.html (this is just a reference - I have never used this company, but the graphics are useful). Many products that one purchases contain products packed with this stuff, and I always save it. Barring a decent supply, one can buy it but it is, again, expensive. If you know of a place that routinely unpacks products and tosses the packaging material, sorting through the discarded material can result in finding some of this stuff.

Once one has a sufficient amount of polyethylene foam, the best packaging method is to suspend the instrument inside the box, cushioned on all six sides by the foam. Corner pads can work (think of how a DVD deck is packaged - two Styrofoam end caps which fit around the ends of the deck and keep it suspended in the box; styrofoam does not have much compliance and so transmits the force from a drop of the box directly to the product packed inside, so it is not a good packaging material, but the idea of suspending the 'scope inside two end caps or four
eight, not four
corner pads is valid).

So, to pack a 7854, I would do something like the following:

1. Accumulate sufficient polyethylene foam. Note that polyethylene foam pieces may be cut and glued together using small amounts of epoxy to make custom-sized pieces.

2. Select a box that has at least 2" of space around the 7854. 3" or 4" will be better.

3. I'd lay a piece of foam in the bottom of the box which fits the entire bottom of the box (see #6, below) , cut another piece to fit up against the rear power supply fins and which extends rearward at least 1/2" beyond the rear enclosure that sits above the power supply, thus protecting the connectors on that rear enclosure.

4. Cut a piece of foam that fits between the front of the box and the plug-in bay (ship the plug-ins separately) and which extended up to just below the CRT bezel, leaving the CRT face and front panel controls at least 1/2" clear of the box.

5. Stuff foam down along the sides of the 'scope. These pieces would be longer than they are tall, but they need not run the entire length of the side of the box. The key here is to prevent side motion and provide compliance between the sides of the 'scope and the box. If the pieces move or slip, it won't matter as long as they stay captured between the 'scope sides and the box.

6. Add a final piece of foam between the top the 'scope and the box. Having that piece extend the entire front-to-back length and side-to-side of the top of the box will help protect the 'scope if the package is dropped on the edge at the front top of the package or either top corners.

One could also provide additional compliance by taping the aforementioned pieces to the 'scope (by running the tape around the foam pieces, not taping them individually to the 'scope) and then packing that whole assembly inside another couple of inches of softer foam or bubblewrap to provide a sort of two-stage deceleration protection.

Double-boxing is always a good idea. Using the softer foam or bubblewrap between the two boxes is a variation on the theme in the paragraph above. Peanuts are not useful at all for this. Peanuts are useless for anything with any mass because the packed item works its way through the peanuts. Typically, for something containing a large transformer, the corner of the item where the transformer is located works its way up against the box side, after which no protection is afforded.

Bubble wrap works OK if one uses a lot of good-quality bubblewrap. The stuff from Home Depot and the like is basically useless because the bubbles cannot sustain much pressure before they pop.

Newspaper is right out (to paraphrase Monty Python).

The best thing is to think it through by considering Newton's second law and how the packaging can provide sufficient gentle deceleration  if the package is dropped.

HTH. Sorry for the extended bandwidth.

DaveD


On 5/25/2019 4:23 PM, Brad Thompson wrote:
Hello--

I'm thinking of offering my 7854 FS and I'd appreciate advice on packaging it
for survival  on shipment to U.S. addresses. IIRC, packing the plug-ins and
keyboard separately is advisable,  as is double-boxing the mainframe.
I'd plan on swaddling the scope in multiple layers of bubble-wrap, with a sheet
of resilient foam to protect the front panel.

Our local pack-and-ship store has a bad reputation. Has anyone successfully used a
commercial mover that offers pack-and-ship services?

If packing turns out to be a hassle, I'll list it for local pickup only.

Thanks in advance, and 73--

Brad  AA1IP


Dave Daniel
 

Brad,

I have purchased four 7xxx 'scopes and had them shipped to me. None of them were packed well, not even remotely. The fact that they arrived intact has always surprised me. I've also purchased an HP 8566, HP 8660D and other very heavy items, most of which were not packed well.

When contemplating heavy, fragile items, physics is your guide, in particular Newton's second law (F=ma). You have to assume that the package will suffer at least a three-foot fall onto a concrete surface (e.g., from the shipper's conveyor system onto a concrete floor) and plan to protect the instrument from that sudden deceleration.

An instrument packed rigidly in a box that suffers such a drop will experience a very high G-force when the floor decelerates to box to zero m/s. This places tremendous strain on the internals of the instrument. For a 'scope, this includes possibly breaking the internal CRT connections. So the trick is to pack the instrument such that the packaging material will decelerate the abrupt stop against the floor as gently as possible. This requires that you use packing material that is somewhat compliant. Taking the instrument to someone who can package it in semi-rigid plastic-covered spray foam is very good if you can find someone to do this. Uline (expensive) provides kits for doing this yourself, but they are expensive. In my experience, polyethylene foam is the best for this. See, for instance, https://www.thefoamfactory.com/closedcellfoam/polyethylene.html (this is just a reference - I have never used this company, but the graphics are useful). Many products that one purchases contain products packed with this stuff, and I always save it. Barring a decent supply, one can buy it but it is, again, expensive. If you know of a place that routinely unpacks products and tosses the packaging material, sorting through the discarded material can result in finding some of this stuff.

Once one has a sufficient amount of polyethylene foam, the best packaging method is to suspend the instrument inside the box, cushioned on all six sides by the foam. Corner pads can work (think of how a DVD deck is packaged - two Styrofoam end caps which fit around the ends of the deck and keep it suspended in the box; styrofoam does not have much compliance and so transmits the force from a drop of the box directly to the product packed inside, so it is not a good packaging material, but the idea of suspending the 'scope inside two end caps or four corner pads is valid).

So, to pack a 7854, I would do something like the following:

1. Accumulate sufficient polyethylene foam. Note that polyethylene foam pieces may be cut and glued together using small amounts of epoxy to make custom-sized pieces.

2. Select a box that has at least 2" of space around the 7854. 3" or 4" will be better.

3. I'd lay a piece of foam in the bottom of the box which fits the entire bottom of the box (see #6, below) , cut another piece to fit up against the rear power supply fins and which extends rearward at least 1/2" beyond the rear enclosure that sits above the power supply, thus protecting the connectors on that rear enclosure.

4. Cut a piece of foam that fits between the front of the box and the plug-in bay (ship the plug-ins separately) and which extended up to just below the CRT bezel, leaving the CRT face and front panel controls at least 1/2" clear of the box.

5. Stuff foam down along the sides of the 'scope. These pieces would be longer than they are tall, but they need not run the entire length of the side of the box. The key here is to prevent side motion and provide compliance between the sides of the 'scope and the box. If the pieces move or slip, it won't matter as long as they stay captured between the 'scope sides and the box.

6. Add a final piece of foam between the top the 'scope and the box. Having that piece extend the entire front-to-back length and side-to-side of the top of the box will help protect the 'scope if the package is dropped on the edge at the front top of the package or either top corners.

One could also provide additional compliance by taping the aforementioned pieces to the 'scope (by running the tape around the foam pieces, not taping them individually to the 'scope) and then packing that whole assembly inside another couple of inches of softer foam or bubblewrap to provide a sort of two-stage deceleration protection.

Double-boxing is always a good idea. Using the softer foam or bubblewrap between the two boxes is a variation on the theme in the paragraph above. Peanuts are not useful at all for this. Peanuts are useless for anything with any mass because the packed item works its way through the peanuts. Typically, for something containing a large transformer, the corner of the item where the transformer is located works its way up against the box side, after which no protection is afforded.

Bubble wrap works OK if one uses a lot of good-quality bubblewrap. The stuff from Home Depot and the like is basically useless because the bubbles cannot sustain much pressure before they pop.

Newspaper is right out (to paraphrase Monty Python).

The best thing is to think it through by considering Newton's second law and how the packaging can provide sufficient gentle deceleration  if the package is dropped.

HTH. Sorry for the extended bandwidth.

DaveD

On 5/25/2019 4:23 PM, Brad Thompson wrote:
Hello--

I'm thinking of offering my 7854 FS and I'd appreciate advice on packaging it
for survival  on shipment to U.S. addresses. IIRC, packing the plug-ins and
keyboard separately is advisable,  as is double-boxing the mainframe.
I'd plan on swaddling the scope in multiple layers of bubble-wrap, with a sheet
of resilient foam to protect the front panel.

Our local pack-and-ship store has a bad reputation. Has anyone successfully used a
commercial mover that offers pack-and-ship services?

If packing turns out to be a hassle, I'll list it for local pickup only.

Thanks in advance, and 73--

Brad  AA1IP

redarlington
 

I'd ask a professional.

I'd also question anything they suggest that you think would not survive a
trip down a flight of stairs.

Really, pack it like you think it's going to be tossed down a flight of
stairs. Pack it so any internal boxes can't shift around and move up
against an external box or crate. The goal is to stop any impact on the
outside from reaching the scope.

If you think packing will cost more than the scope is worth, then don't
ship it (unless of course, somebody is willing to pay to do it right). I
suspect doing it "right" will cost well over $100 to ship a state or three
over.

You might get lucky with expanding foam packing around the scope, inside a
box, and then put that box inside a whole other box, and insulate it on all
sides with something that won't shift around.

Best of luck, and you might need it, and usually I have it when buying test
equipment.

-Bob N3XKB

On Sat, May 25, 2019 at 2:24 PM Brad Thompson <brad.thompsonaa1ip@...>
wrote:

Hello--

I'm thinking of offering my 7854 FS and I'd appreciate advice on
packaging it
for survival on shipment to U.S. addresses. IIRC, packing the plug-ins and
keyboard separately is advisable, as is double-boxing the mainframe.
I'd plan on swaddling the scope in multiple layers of bubble-wrap, with
a sheet
of resilient foam to protect the front panel.

Our local pack-and-ship store has a bad reputation. Has anyone
successfully used a
commercial mover that offers pack-and-ship services?

If packing turns out to be a hassle, I'll list it for local pickup only.

Thanks in advance, and 73--

Brad AA1IP
--
Sent from Postbox <https://www.postbox-inc.com>



Doug Bercich
 

Where are you located? (an approximation is fine)
Perhaps someone here on the list might be interested, and you’ll know it
went to a good home. ;-)

I absolutely adore my 7854!

I’d consider it just as a spare.

Best regards!

On Sat, May 25, 2019 at 3:24 PM Brad Thompson <brad.thompsonaa1ip@...>
wrote:

Hello--

I'm thinking of offering my 7854 FS and I'd appreciate advice on
packaging it
for survival on shipment to U.S. addresses. IIRC, packing the plug-ins and
keyboard separately is advisable, as is double-boxing the mainframe.
I'd plan on swaddling the scope in multiple layers of bubble-wrap, with
a sheet
of resilient foam to protect the front panel.

Our local pack-and-ship store has a bad reputation. Has anyone
successfully used a
commercial mover that offers pack-and-ship services?

If packing turns out to be a hassle, I'll list it for local pickup only.

Thanks in advance, and 73--

Brad AA1IP
--
Sent from Postbox <https://www.postbox-inc.com>



Tony Fleming
 

When I received mine it was bubble wrapped, that was in a box. Than a
second box that had a space about 1" or so around filled with the plastic
"peanuts" (for a lack of a better word). FedEx was great and no physical
damage was done to my scope!
I would use a heavier box on the outside and regular box inside. Insurance
is good also, so if something goes wrong.....

On Sat, May 25, 2019 at 3:24 PM Brad Thompson <brad.thompsonaa1ip@...>
wrote:

Hello--

I'm thinking of offering my 7854 FS and I'd appreciate advice on
packaging it
for survival on shipment to U.S. addresses. IIRC, packing the plug-ins and
keyboard separately is advisable, as is double-boxing the mainframe.
I'd plan on swaddling the scope in multiple layers of bubble-wrap, with
a sheet
of resilient foam to protect the front panel.

Our local pack-and-ship store has a bad reputation. Has anyone
successfully used a
commercial mover that offers pack-and-ship services?

If packing turns out to be a hassle, I'll list it for local pickup only.

Thanks in advance, and 73--

Brad AA1IP
--
Sent from Postbox <https://www.postbox-inc.com>



Brad Thompson
 

Hello--

I'm thinking of offering my 7854 FS and I'd appreciate advice on packaging it
for survival  on shipment to U.S. addresses. IIRC, packing the plug-ins and
keyboard separately is advisable,  as is double-boxing the mainframe.
I'd plan on swaddling the scope in multiple layers of bubble-wrap, with a sheet
of resilient foam to protect the front panel.

Our local pack-and-ship store has a bad reputation. Has anyone successfully used a
commercial mover that offers pack-and-ship services?

If packing turns out to be a hassle, I'll list it for local pickup only.

Thanks in advance, and 73--

Brad  AA1IP
--
Sent from Postbox <https://www.postbox-inc.com>