Looking for Sony-Tektronix 318 Logic Analyser Operator's Guide


 

If not too off-topic (it's not a 'scope, really, and too digital):
Does anyone have a PDF of this available? The Service Manual (military version) is available on the Internet but as indicated, I'm looking for the Operator's Guide.
A Reference Guide seems to exist as well. That too could be helpful.

Thanks in advance!

Raymond


Roy Thistle
 

Hi:
It seems the Army one has a reasonable operator's section (Chapter 4?). What part isn't detailed enough?
My question is why: what can one do with a 50 MHz (1 mega-sample) logic analyzer...that you can't do with a cheap p.c. based one? (Am I missing something fun?)
Regards.


Harvey White
 

On Tue, 12 Mar 2019 11:28:15 -0700, you wrote:

Hi:
It seems the Army one has a reasonable operator's section (Chapter 4?). What part isn't detailed enough?
My question is why: what can one do with a 50 MHz (1 mega-sample) logic analyzer...that you can't do with a cheap p.c. based one? (Am I missing something fun?)
Well, if you regard signature analysis as fun, then you can do that.
The 308 was more limited, but if you're looking at vintage electronics
that uses signature analysis, that's not a bad thing to have
available.

The cheap PC based ones make a lot of use of the PC processing power
that wasn't available at the time. However, standalone can be good.
(I do use logic analyzers, an HP16702B, for instance), but the latest
project uses a 10 dollar logic analyzer box, but it's used more for
I2C and serial data analysis than logic analysis.

Harvey


Regards.



 

On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 07:28 PM, Roy Thistle wrote:


My question is why: what can one do with a 50 MHz (1 mega-sample) logic
analyzer...that you can't do with a cheap p.c. based one? (Am I missing
something fun?)
Hi Roy,
You're frighteningly close to touching on the very reason for groups like this to exist...

Raymond


 

On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 08:50 PM, Raymond Domp Frank wrote:


a 50 MHz (1 mega-sample) logic analyzer
Hi again Roy,
1 mega-sample?

Raymond


 

On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 07:28 PM, Roy Thistle wrote:


What part isn't detailed enough?
And one more point, Roy:
The short answer is: dunno.
It's my experience that often, wading through an operator manual saves time in getting acquainted with a piece of equipment, even if I know how it works and what to use it for. Also, I like having things complete.
I am familiar with the HP 16702A and -B and Tek 1240 and TLA7XX models but somehow, I like the cuteness of the Tek 318 (and 308).

Raymond


Kyle Rhodes
 

Hi Raymond,

I have a 318, but don’t recall if there’s a manual in the top zippered pouch. I’ll check and if so look at how feasible it would be to scan it.

Personally, I’ve never looked for a manual, it was intuitive enough to just use for what I needed it for, which is simple analysis of microcontroller circuits.


Thanks,
Kyle

On Mar 12, 2019, at 4:00 PM, Raymond Domp Frank <hewpatek@gmail.com> wrote:

On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 07:28 PM, Roy Thistle wrote:


What part isn't detailed enough?
And one more point, Roy:
The short answer is: dunno.
It's my experience that often, wading through an operator manual saves time in getting acquainted with a piece of equipment, even if I know how it works and what to use it for. Also, I like having things complete.
I am familiar with the HP 16702A and -B and Tek 1240 and TLA7XX models but somehow, I like the cuteness of the Tek 318 (and 308).

Raymond



 

On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 09:07 PM, Kyle Rhodes wrote:


I’ll check and if so look at how feasible it would be to scan it
Thanks for considering that, Kyle,
You probably understood that I'm not looking for the self-evident parts in a user manual but hoping for some nice surprises. It seems likely that the 318 has more tricks than just the simple, self-evident ones.
I'd appreciate if you could have a look and maybe just scan the TOC first, where I could see what I'd be interested in because the whole document may be too much to scan.
Since I live in the Netherlands, sending a photocopied manual probably would be too expensive, although obviously, I'd reimburse you for any costs.
Let's see where your initial effort leads to. Thanks in advance.

Kind regards,

Raymond


 

To all who responded on this topic:
Håkan Hintze (he proves to be an open treasure pit again!) sent me a scan of the 318|338 operator's manual.
I will upload it to TekWiki (another invaluable resource) tonight or tomorrow so it will be available for all.

Thanks to all who responded!

Raymond


 

On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 10:59 PM, Raymond Domp Frank wrote:


I will upload it to TekWiki (another invaluable resource) tonight or tomorrow
so it will be available for all.
Upload to TekWiki is done.

Raymond


Roy Thistle
 

On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 11:28 AM, Roy Thistle wrote:


Army one has a reasonable operator's section (Chapter 4?).
It is chapter/part 3 in the Army one.


Roy Thistle
 

On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 12:52 PM, Raymond Domp Frank wrote:


1 mega-sample
sorry... typing too fast... that should be 100 mega-samples


Roy Thistle
 

On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 11:49 AM, Harvey White wrote:


if you regard signature analysis as fun, then you can do that.
Hi Harvey:
Thanks for the reply. There's always a few old L.A.s keeping the concrete slab down, in someone's basement... and I'm thinking about that, whenever I see one. The 308 has a word recognition module, and the 318/338 have word recognition modes... but, if its signature analysis... aren't captured word(s), further processed, to generate the signature? Can you do that with a 308/318/338?


Chuck Harris <cfharris@...>
 

Yes, it has full signature analysis.

-Chuck Harris

Roy Thistle wrote:

On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 11:49 AM, Harvey White wrote:


if you regard signature analysis as fun, then you can do that.
Hi Harvey:
Thanks for the reply. There's always a few old L.A.s keeping the concrete slab down, in someone's basement... and I'm thinking about that, whenever I see one. The 308 has a word recognition module, and the 318/338 have word recognition modes... but, if its signature analysis... aren't captured word(s), further processed, to generate the signature? Can you do that with a 308/318/338?




Roy Thistle
 

On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 01:00 PM, Raymond Domp Frank wrote:


wading through an operator manual saves time in getting acquainted
Well, upon seeing the Operator's manual (Thanks for posting it to Tekwiki!)… I can see that manual has examples of how to set up the 318, that the Army service manual doesn't give. But I guess, and this is the just of my question, I think... I just didn't recon anyone was using them, to do logic analysis, or for servicing stuff anymore (the p.c. based L.A.s are so cheap and powerful)... so I was thinking, I'm missing some use for these old LAs...(other than for technical/design/parts interest... which the service guide covers much better).
I understand what you are saying... but, most of the older L.A.s, I run across, are being used to weigh down the basement floor. If people are doing something useful with them, I'd like to do it too.


Roy Thistle
 

Hi Chuck:
Thanks for letting me know.
I saw that about the 308 does it (from Tekwiki).. page 1, and page 78, in the 308 operator guide/instruction manual.
Signature analysis is built into the 308... you don't need the word recognizer probe/module accessory, to do it (at least by the page 78 example.)
Does anyone know if the 318 or 338 do signature analysis (I didn't see that in their manuals)?
Will any of the later Tek LAs do signature analysis?
Best regards.


Harvey White
 

On Wed, 13 Mar 2019 17:04:55 -0700, you wrote:

Hi Chuck:
Thanks for letting me know.
I saw that about the 308 does it (from Tekwiki).. page 1, and page 78, in the 308 operator guide/instruction manual.
Signature analysis is built into the 308... you don't need the word recognizer probe/module accessory, to do it (at least by the page 78 example.)
Does anyone know if the 318 or 338 do signature analysis (I didn't see that in their manuals)?
Will any of the later Tek LAs do signature analysis?
Since I only have the 308, I can't say about the tektronix ones.

However, HP makes things in the 5000 series (such as a 5005B) that are
signature analyzers, and peak reading voltmeters...

Harvey


Best regards.



Harvey White
 

On Wed, 13 Mar 2019 13:38:43 -0700, you wrote:

On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 11:49 AM, Harvey White wrote:


if you regard signature analysis as fun, then you can do that.
Hi Harvey:
Thanks for the reply. There's always a few old L.A.s keeping the concrete slab down, in someone's basement... and I'm thinking about that, whenever I see one.
Logic analyzers are very useful, but somewhat limited in what they do.
They really were needed in the times of 8 and 16 bit microprocessors,
and are less useful for microcontrollers. However, since most
microcontrollers have built in debugging, you don't need to monitor
the instructions and data paths.

Monitoring the program at an assembly language level isn't as useful
as it might be when you are dealing with a compiled program.
Sometimes, however, you need to check to see what the compiler does.


The 308 has a word recognition module, and the 318/338 have word recognition modes... but, if its signature analysis... aren't captured word(s), further processed, to generate the signature? Can you do that with a 308/318/338?
Lots of logic analyzers are multiple byte wide memories with inputs
for each bit. Clocking data is either a timebase or an external
clock, so you get either a time mode/waveform display or a state mode
where only data happening at the clock is captured.

Signature mode takes a start, stop and then looks at the transitions
at a node. Those transistions are run through a shift register with
feedback, and the result is displayed in odd alphanumerics.

Not the same thing, and the data is not stored then processed in
signature mode.

308 does signature, and is a limited logic analyzer.

Don't have the other ones.

Tektronix logic analyzers and HP scopes generally drive me up a wall,
so I have tektronix scopes and HP logic analyzers.


Harvey





Harvey White
 

On Wed, 13 Mar 2019 13:58:49 -0700, you wrote:

On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 01:00 PM, Raymond Domp Frank wrote:


wading through an operator manual saves time in getting acquainted
Well, upon seeing the Operator's manual (Thanks for posting it to Tekwiki!)… I can see that manual has examples of how to set up the 318, that the Army service manual doesn't give. But I guess, and this is the just of my question, I think... I just didn't recon anyone was using them, to do logic analysis, or for servicing stuff anymore (the p.c. based L.A.s are so cheap and powerful)... so I was thinking, I'm missing some use for these old LAs...(other than for technical/design/parts interest... which the service guide covers much better).
Debugging I2C data streams, FPGA outputs, video data outputs from
graphics chips.

Have a CPLD standalone board that takes apart I2C communications and
drives an HP logic analyzer. Goes from time to state and tags the
message bytes in the signal. Made a while back before cheap PC based
logic analyzers.

One blade in my logic analyzer does 64 channels, and there are times
when I've used most of them, typically 32 to monitor I2C state and 8
to 16 to monitor the results from something that got the I2C message.

Harvey



I understand what you are saying... but, most of the older L.A.s, I run across, are being used to weigh down the basement floor. If people are doing something useful with them, I'd like to do it too.