Topics

7K series - Conceptual question - What's the 3rd most useful plugin

Fabio Trevisan
 

Hello folks,
Here comes a conceptual question... "designed to provoke an emotional response"...
I have this 7623A for a while already, for which I have the essential pair of plugins... A 7A26 and a 7B53A.
Everything is working mostly fine, and I don't quite "need" anything else... but looking at that empty slot there, sort of makes me sad.
Looking at the myriad of 7k plugins, I can't decide which one to look for next, so, for you 7K series long time users, I ask:
What's the 3rd 7K plugin that one can't miss?
Of course I know it's relative and know it all depends on one's most prevalent area of interest, but I`m curious to know if one or two in particular stands above the crowd.

For a starter, having owned for a while a 464+DM44 (which I gave to a friend as a gift) I miss somewhat the Time and 1/Time functionality. Is there a plugin that fills that gap?

I look forward your opinions,

Rgrds,
Fabio

Harvey White
 

On Wed, 05 Sep 2018 14:40:22 -0700, you wrote:

Hello folks,
Here comes a conceptual question... "designed to provoke an emotional response"...
I have this 7623A for a while already, for which I have the essential pair of plugins... A 7A26 and a 7B53A.
Everything is working mostly fine, and I don't quite "need" anything else... but looking at that empty slot there, sort of makes me sad.
Looking at the myriad of 7k plugins, I can't decide which one to look for next, so, for you 7K series long time users, I ask:
What's the 3rd 7K plugin that one can't miss?
Of course I know it's relative and know it all depends on one's most prevalent area of interest, but I`m curious to know if one or two in particular stands above the crowd.
I'd look for another 7A26 to get four channels. That's thing one.


For a starter, having owned for a while a 464+DM44 (which I gave to a friend as a gift) I miss somewhat the Time and 1/Time functionality. Is there a plugin that fills that gap?
OK, then A 7D14 or a 7D15 will do time and period.

A 7D12 with the right plugin (M2, I think) will do a readout of a
waveform at a particular point (you need the B timegate to trigger the
plugin).

I'm assuming that you have on screen readouts, though.

Harvey



I look forward your opinions,

Rgrds,
Fabio




 

On Wed, Sep 5, 2018 at 11:48 PM, Harvey White wrote:


OK, then A 7D14 or a 7D15 will do time and period.
AFAIK, the counter plugins need to be put into a horizontal slot to show the frequency of the signal into the vertical plugin.

How about a 7A13?

Or a 7CT1N for curve tracing? The 7B53A has the right (amplifier) mode available.

Raymond

Harvey White
 

On Wed, 05 Sep 2018 14:57:47 -0700, you wrote:

On Wed, Sep 5, 2018 at 11:48 PM, Harvey White wrote:


OK, then A 7D14 or a 7D15 will do time and period.
AFAIK, the counter plugins need to be put into a horizontal slot to show the frequency of the signal into the vertical plugin.
That's correct if you want the trigger output from the vertical
plugins to be internally routed to the counter. You can likely feed
the counter from the vertical signal output, but under chop/alt you
won't get good stuff.

Still might be useful.


How about a 7A13?
Low frequency differential inputs

also consider a 7A22.



Or a 7CT1N for curve tracing? The 7B53A has the right (amplifier) mode available.
Yep, unfortunately, they seem to be rather expensive.


If you really wanted to go a bit farther, then perhaps a 7D20.

Harvey



Raymond


John Griessen
 

On 09/05/2018 04:40 PM, Fabio Trevisan wrote:
What's the 3rd 7K plugin that one can't miss?
7A13 diff amp

 

Hi Fabio,

Raymond is partially correct.

A 7D14 does not measure period. It is strictly a high frequency (512MHz) counter.
The 7D15 is a universal counter / timer. As such it is far more flexible. It will automatically monitor the trigger signal if it is in a horizontal slot but it CAN also be used in a vertical or slot by connecting the signal being measured by the vertical plugin to the A or B input of the 7D15.

Your choice would depend on what you want to do. Several people have recommended the 7A13. I can add one more important who has told me on several occasions that he thinks the 7A13 is the most useful plugin. That would be the design engineer of the 7A16A, 7A18, 7A24, 7A25 (not produced), and 7A26 plugins, and the 7854 scope.

I like the 7A13 also, and, like you, I was annoyed for many years with the empty slot in my 7704A. I solved the empty slot a long time ago. Unfortunately, I didn't know when to stop.

If you purchase a 7A13 make sure to get one of the digital ones. The plastic used to make the gears in the mechanical 7A13 expand over time and crack off their axle or jam up. This can't be fixed.

Dennis Tillman W7PF

-----Original Message-----
From: TekScopes@groups.io [mailto:TekScopes@groups.io] On Behalf Of
Raymond Domp Frank
Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2018 2:58 PM
To: TekScopes@groups.io
Subject: Re: [TekScopes] 7K series - Conceptual question - What's the 3rd
most useful plugin

On Wed, Sep 5, 2018 at 11:48 PM, Harvey White wrote:

OK, then A 7D14 or a 7D15 will do time and period.
AFAIK, the counter plugins need to be put into a horizontal slot to show
the frequency of the signal into the vertical plugin.

How about a 7A13?

Or a 7CT1N for curve tracing? The 7B53A has the right (amplifier) mode
available.

Raymond



--
Dennis Tillman W7PF
TekScopes Moderator

 

On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 12:14 AM, Harvey White wrote:


You can likely feed
the counter from the vertical signal output
Yes, you can. For a permanent setup, like Fabio seems to want, I wouldn't like a BNC plug in the socket on the front all the time but a counter *is* very useful.
A 7D20, effectively converting the 7623A into a digital 'scope with its own digital storage, isn't a good match for the analog storage functionality of the 7623A. In a 7603, a 7D20 makes for a very nice 'scope. The 7D20 is very much "analog-like".

Raymond

Jim Ford
 

Crap, now you guys have added to my wishlist the 7D20 and 7A13!  Oops, I spoke too soon, the 7A13 is already on the wishlist!
7D20 has a GPIB connection, so I gotta have one someday.  The wife will question my impeccable logic...
Jim


Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

-------- Original message --------From: Raymond Domp Frank <@Raymond> Date: 9/5/18 4:49 PM (GMT-08:00) To: TekScopes@groups.io Subject: Re: [TekScopes] 7K series - Conceptual question - What's the 3rd most useful plugin
On Thu, Sep  6, 2018 at 12:14 AM, Harvey White wrote:


You can likely feed
the counter from the vertical signal output
Yes, you can. For a permanent setup, like Fabio seems to want, I wouldn't like a BNC plug in the socket on the front all the time but a counter *is* very useful.
A 7D20, effectively converting the 7623A into a digital 'scope with its own digital storage, isn't a good match for the analog storage functionality of the 7623A. In a 7603, a 7D20 makes for a very nice 'scope. The 7D20 is very much "analog-like".

Raymond

ArtekManuals
 

Jim

Bite the bullet and get her a gift certificate from a major shoe store 8^)

I bought a top of the line $2000 radio once ...cost me a matching diamond ring ...worth every penny

Dave
NR1DX
manuals@...

On 9/5/2018 8:29 PM, Jim Ford wrote:
Crap, now you guys have added to my wishlist the 7D20 and 7A13!  Oops, I spoke too soon, the 7A13 is already on the wishlist!
7D20 has a GPIB connection, so I gotta have one someday.  The wife will question my impeccable logic...
Jim


Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
-------- Original message --------From: Raymond Domp Frank <@Raymond> Date: 9/5/18 4:49 PM (GMT-08:00) To: TekScopes@groups.io Subject: Re: [TekScopes] 7K series - Conceptual question - What's the 3rd most useful plugin
On Thu, Sep  6, 2018 at 12:14 AM, Harvey White wrote:

You can likely feed
the counter from the vertical signal output
Yes, you can. For a permanent setup, like Fabio seems to want, I wouldn't like a BNC plug in the socket on the front all the time but a counter *is* very useful.
A 7D20, effectively converting the 7623A into a digital 'scope with its own digital storage, isn't a good match for the analog storage functionality of the 7623A. In a 7603, a 7D20 makes for a very nice 'scope. The 7D20 is very much "analog-like".

Raymond




--
Dave
Manuals@...
www.ArtekManuals.com

Harvey White
 

On Wed, 05 Sep 2018 17:29:59 -0700, you wrote:

Crap, now you guys have added to my wishlist the 7D20 and 7A13!  Oops, I spoke too soon, the 7A13 is already on the wishlist!
7D20 has a GPIB connection, so I gotta have one someday.  The wife will question my impeccable logic...
Jim
<evil laugh>


Now, also consider, if you do some digital, the 7A42 is a 4 channel
plugin with combinational logic triggering. It is useful if you don't
have a separate logic analyzer. Having said that, I *do* have a logic
analyzer, and I've never used mine (the 7A42).

There's essentially three directions you can go into with electronics
design. 1) digital 2) RF 3) general purpose.

For Digital:

7A26 (a pair of them), 7D20 (yes, and even though you have a storage
scope, a digital storage scope provides a longer lasting trace). 7D02
*if* you deal with microprocessors and they're old ones (anything
newer than an AVR and including an AVR, Pic, etc... any
microcontroller, a 7D02 is likely to be less useful.) 7A42.

for RF: Consider any of the 7L spectrum analyzers depending on the
frequencies you want to play with. Not quite my field, and there are
other analyzers out there with better specs, ask the RF types.

General: Here's where the 7A13 comes in, for the low level,
moderately low frequency differential measurements (ripple on a power
supply, etc.) The 7A22 has different bandwidth filters, and less neat
offset capability. The 7A26 allows two more analog channels. 7A18
can also be considered if you only want 75 Mhz bandwidth.

When doing digital, you often want to look at more than four signals.
At this point, a logic analyzer is really your best bet (and I assume
all the signals are digital in nature). As a separate piece of
equipment, you'd want one that has at least 32 channels, and yes, I do
use that many. (monitoring *all* the ports on an ARM processor, with
one that has 4 16 bit ports, well, you need 64 data inputs. Even
though the processor I use (format wise) doesn't have a complete set
of the last 16 bits in a port, it still takes 16 bits capability, so
64 bits).

When doing RF: If you're a ham, then anything up to 1.2 Ghz covers
most of the bands you'd use, but above that means you're doing some
specialized (IMHO) microwave work. YMMV on this.

If you're doing Digital, or general purpose, and you are doing either
B, G, or N WiFi, or you're doing NRF24xxx 2.4 GHz RF, you may want a
spectrum analyzer that goes to about 3 GHz, but certainly takes in the
2.4 to 2.5 Ghz band. There are ways of working around this, but
still, much nicer.

General purpose has the fewest real specialized plugins, but the 7a13
(and mine are all digital because I *like* digital) are useful, as are
the 7A22. Again, the 7A22 has a whole host of bandwidth filters to
allow you to look at a specific frequency. There are HF filters and
low frequency filters so you could look at a specific bandwith in the
face of other frequencies, and still get a good idea.

There's other stuff out there, too, I'm sure.

I do a lot of digital, some general purpose, and not a lot of RF.

The 7904 I have is very useful, as is the Agilent 16702B logic
analyzer.

My more or less favorite load on a 7904 is a 7A26, 7D12 with an M2
plugin (sampling), a 7D15 in a horizontal slot, and a 7B92A in the
last horizontal slot. That, of course, varies.

Harvey




Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
-------- Original message --------From: Raymond Domp Frank <@Raymond> Date: 9/5/18 4:49 PM (GMT-08:00) To: TekScopes@groups.io Subject: Re: [TekScopes] 7K series - Conceptual question - What's the 3rd most useful plugin
On Thu, Sep  6, 2018 at 12:14 AM, Harvey White wrote:


You can likely feed
the counter from the vertical signal output
Yes, you can. For a permanent setup, like Fabio seems to want, I wouldn't like a BNC plug in the socket on the front all the time but a counter *is* very useful.
A 7D20, effectively converting the 7623A into a digital 'scope with its own digital storage, isn't a good match for the analog storage functionality of the 7623A. In a 7603, a 7D20 makes for a very nice 'scope. The 7D20 is very much "analog-like".

Raymond




Brendan
 

On Wed, Sep 5, 2018 at 06:31 PM, Harvey White wrote:


On Wed, 05 Sep 2018 17:29:59 -0700, you wrote:

Crap, now you guys have added to my wishlist the 7D20 and 7A13!  Oops, I
spoke too soon, the 7A13 is already on the wishlist!
7D20 has a GPIB connection, so I gotta have one someday.  The wife will
question my impeccable logic...
Jim
<evil laugh>


Now, also consider, if you do some digital, the 7A42 is a 4 channel
plugin with combinational logic triggering. It is useful if you don't
have a separate logic analyzer. Having said that, I *do* have a logic
analyzer, and I've never used mine (the 7A42).

There's essentially three directions you can go into with electronics
design. 1) digital 2) RF 3) general purpose.

For Digital:

7A26 (a pair of them), 7D20 (yes, and even though you have a storage
scope, a digital storage scope provides a longer lasting trace). 7D02
*if* you deal with microprocessors and they're old ones (anything
newer than an AVR and including an AVR, Pic, etc... any
microcontroller, a 7D02 is likely to be less useful.) 7A42.

for RF: Consider any of the 7L spectrum analyzers depending on the
frequencies you want to play with. Not quite my field, and there are
other analyzers out there with better specs, ask the RF types.

General: Here's where the 7A13 comes in, for the low level,
moderately low frequency differential measurements (ripple on a power
supply, etc.) The 7A22 has different bandwidth filters, and less neat
offset capability. The 7A26 allows two more analog channels. 7A18
can also be considered if you only want 75 Mhz bandwidth.

When doing digital, you often want to look at more than four signals.
At this point, a logic analyzer is really your best bet (and I assume
all the signals are digital in nature). As a separate piece of
equipment, you'd want one that has at least 32 channels, and yes, I do
use that many. (monitoring *all* the ports on an ARM processor, with
one that has 4 16 bit ports, well, you need 64 data inputs. Even
though the processor I use (format wise) doesn't have a complete set
of the last 16 bits in a port, it still takes 16 bits capability, so
64 bits).

When doing RF: If you're a ham, then anything up to 1.2 Ghz covers
most of the bands you'd use, but above that means you're doing some
specialized (IMHO) microwave work. YMMV on this.

If you're doing Digital, or general purpose, and you are doing either
B, G, or N WiFi, or you're doing NRF24xxx 2.4 GHz RF, you may want a
spectrum analyzer that goes to about 3 GHz, but certainly takes in the
2.4 to 2.5 Ghz band. There are ways of working around this, but
still, much nicer.

General purpose has the fewest real specialized plugins, but the 7a13
(and mine are all digital because I *like* digital) are useful, as are
the 7A22. Again, the 7A22 has a whole host of bandwidth filters to
allow you to look at a specific frequency. There are HF filters and
low frequency filters so you could look at a specific bandwith in the
face of other frequencies, and still get a good idea.

There's other stuff out there, too, I'm sure.

I do a lot of digital, some general purpose, and not a lot of RF.

The 7904 I have is very useful, as is the Agilent 16702B logic
analyzer.

My more or less favorite load on a 7904 is a 7A26, 7D12 with an M2
plugin (sampling), a 7D15 in a horizontal slot, and a 7B92A in the
last horizontal slot. That, of course, varies.

Harvey




Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
-------- Original message --------From: Raymond Domp Frank
<@Raymond> Date: 9/5/18 4:49 PM (GMT-08:00) To:
TekScopes@groups.io Subject: Re: [TekScopes] 7K series - Conceptual question -
What's the 3rd most useful plugin
On Thu, Sep  6, 2018 at 12:14 AM, Harvey White wrote:


You can likely feed
the counter from the vertical signal output
Yes, you can. For a permanent setup, like Fabio seems to want, I wouldn't
like a BNC plug in the socket on the front all the time but a counter *is*
very useful.
A 7D20, effectively converting the 7623A into a digital 'scope with its own
digital storage, isn't a good match for the analog storage functionality of
the 7623A. In a 7603, a 7D20 makes for a very nice 'scope. The 7D20 is very
much "analog-like".

Raymond




I'm not a "long time user" of the 7k series but I do like the 7CT1N.

Harvey White
 

On Wed, 05 Sep 2018 18:47:15 -0700, you wrote:

On Wed, Sep 5, 2018 at 06:31 PM, Harvey White wrote:
<snip>

I'm not a "long time user" of the 7k series but I do like the 7CT1N.
I do, too. Don't always use mine, but they're nice. Best alternative
to a dedicated curve tracer that I know of.

Having said that, those little puppies are *expensive*, guess they're
in demand by people who want to measure transistor curves.

Of course, not a lot of this stuff is *cheap*.....

Harvey



 

On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 03:31 AM, Harvey White wrote:


7D20 (yes, and even though you have a storage
scope, a digital storage scope provides a longer lasting trace).
I fully agree. The disadvantage is that the screen is the smallest (all 8 x 10 div) among the 7000 mainframes:

Analog storage: 7613, 7623(A), 7633(A), 7834 - 0.9 cm/div
Non-storage: 7603 - 1.2 cm/div (the 10 x 10 div screen option has smaller divisions)
Other non-storage: 7XXX - 1 cm/div

The logic analyzers (7D01, 7D02) all have their own digital storage, so analog (CRT) storage is of no value, whereas at the same time, the smaller screen size of these analog storage 'scopes is a disadvantage.

Basically, what I'm saying is: Get a 7603 (preferably) or another non-storage mainframe for digital stuff and use the analog storage mainframe for analog stuff.
Obviously, with only one mainframe available, the screen size disadvantage becomes moot.

The analog storage mainframes are very convenient when using with non-storage spectrum analyzers (7L12, 7L13).

So, as you see, you need so much more equipment, which as you mentioned before, unfortunately isn't that easy to come by where you live.

By the way: The nice cursor measurements available with DM44-equipped 'scopes isn't available with e.g. a 7D15, although "gated" measurements are.
If you want something a bit like cursor measurements, you need a four-slot mainframe with e.g. a 7B85 / 7B80 time base combination, which gives you on-screen digital delta-time. Alternatively, a 7854 mainframe would help

You may also hunt for a filling panel for the time being...

Raymond

 

On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 04:08 AM, Harvey White wrote:


I do like the 7CT1N
So do I. I sold mine, for the following reasons:
- I have both a 576 and 577 dedicated curve tracer
- A while ago I bought a "home-made" 5CT1N-like module (yes, for the 5000-series), designed and built by an ex-Tek employee. The 5CT1N module, having no readout (hence -N), exists for the non-readout, slow 5000 mainframes but this one is equipped with read-out functionality, built with 7000-readout components. This allows digital, on-screen readout for step, horizontal /div. and vertical /div. All hand-wired, no copper traces! Multi-position switches instead of pots for selection.

Raymond

Harvey White
 

On Wed, 05 Sep 2018 19:23:18 -0700, you wrote:

On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 04:08 AM, Harvey White wrote:


I do like the 7CT1N
So do I. I sold mine, for the following reasons:
- I have both a 576 and 577 dedicated curve tracer
- A while ago I bought a "home-made" 5CT1N-like module (yes, for the 5000-series), designed and built by an ex-Tek employee. The 5CT1N module, having no readout (hence -N), exists for the non-readout, slow 5000 mainframes but this one is equipped with read-out functionality, built with 7000-readout components. This allows digital, on-screen readout for step, horizontal /div. and vertical /div. All hand-wired, no copper traces! Multi-position switches instead of pots for selection.
THAT is a definite piece of art. I've got a design that makes a
digital curve tracer. Something like the Tek 472 if I have the
numbers right. +/- 20 volts, digital, and current readings down to
about 200 NA full scale....

One of those.. working on it.... designs, with three
microprocessors.... (two for current/voltage supplies).

Harvey






Raymond


 

On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 05:00 AM, Harvey White wrote:

Hi Harvey,

....with three microprocessors...
None of that with this unit: All old-style analog, based on the practically identical 5- or 7CT1N, enhanced with an integrated 7000-style readout, built with original Tek circuits and IC's.

Raymond

Paul Amaranth
 

I'd love to see schematics for that (like I need another project).

I have the bigger curve tracers but I tend to use the 7ct1n for quick checks just because it's easy to set up.

Paul

On Wed, Sep 05, 2018 at 08:09:29PM -0700, Raymond Domp Frank wrote:
On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 05:00 AM, Harvey White wrote:

Hi Harvey,

....with three microprocessors...
None of that with this unit: All old-style analog, based on the practically identical 5- or 7CT1N, enhanced with an integrated 7000-style readout, built with original Tek circuits and IC's.

Raymond
--
Paul Amaranth, GCIH | Rochester MI, USA
Aurora Group, Inc. | Security, Systems & Software
paul@... | Unix & Windows

 

On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 05:19 AM, Paul Amaranth wrote:

Hi Paul,

I'd love to see schematics for that
I have pencil-drawn sketchy and partial schematics, that's all there is... If you're serious about this, I'll check with the designer (if I can still reach him) for permission to upload. It'll take some time to put together and scan.

Raymond

Harvey White
 

On Wed, 05 Sep 2018 20:09:29 -0700, you wrote:

On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 05:00 AM, Harvey White wrote:

Hi Harvey,

....with three microprocessors...
None of that with this unit: All old-style analog, based on the practically identical 5- or 7CT1N, enhanced with an integrated 7000-style readout, built with original Tek circuits and IC's.
Yep, if it were't for the switches, I'd be tempted to take the readout
generator from an old plugin and modify my existing 7CT1N. It seems
like a lot of work, though. Gotta admire that 7CT1....

Harvey



Raymond


Harvey White
 

On Wed, 05 Sep 2018 20:31:06 -0700, you wrote:

On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 05:19 AM, Paul Amaranth wrote:

Hi Paul,

I'd love to see schematics for that
I have pencil-drawn sketchy and partial schematics, that's all there is... If you're serious about this, I'll check with the designer (if I can still reach him) for permission to upload. It'll take some time to put together and scan.
I'd be interested, too, just because.

Harvey



Raymond