Topics

TekScopes Policy Regarding Contacting Members Off-List

 

TekScopes respects the privacy rights of its members. Those privacy rights
may be governed by their country's laws, and / or by your own country's
laws.



Email addresses, when included in the header of a post are for reference
only. They may not be published or "harvested" by any means. They may not be
used to contact someone directly, off list, unless you have their prior
permission.



That permission would be given in the form of a post to TekScopes which
would include the email address they wanted you to use. That permission
would be limited to the person or persons indicated in the email and that
permission would be limited to the subject matter indicated in the email.



Dennis Tillman W7PF

TekScopes Owner / Moderator

Richard Knoppow
 

It's certainly a commendable philosophy to protect the privacy of members, however, the return address in the header is used when one clicks on "Respond All" or whatever its called in your mail client. The address of the sender is right there. Also some members, like me, include an e-mail address as part of our signatures.
I think the purpose of the response is important. Certainly something meant is pure advertising is undesirable and anything insulting should result in the senders being removed from the list (I've have very occasionally gotten such messages but they are rare). Some members just don't want the extra messages.

On 8/28/2018 10:27 AM, Dennis Tillman W7PF wrote:
TekScopes respects the privacy rights of its members. Those privacy rights
may be governed by their country's laws, and / or by your own country's
laws.
Email addresses, when included in the header of a post are for reference
only. They may not be published or "harvested" by any means. They may not be
used to contact someone directly, off list, unless you have their prior
permission.
--
Richard Knoppow
dickburk@...
WB6KBL

Dave Daniel
 

Dennis,

What prompted your email regarding privacy?

DaveD

On 8/28/2018 1:27 PM, Dennis Tillman W7PF wrote:
TekScopes respects the privacy rights of its members. Those privacy rights
may be governed by their country's laws, and / or by your own country's
laws.


Email addresses, when included in the header of a post are for reference
only. They may not be published or "harvested" by any means. They may not be
used to contact someone directly, off list, unless you have their prior
permission.


That permission would be given in the form of a post to TekScopes which
would include the email address they wanted you to use. That permission
would be limited to the person or persons indicated in the email and that
permission would be limited to the subject matter indicated in the email.


Dennis Tillman W7PF

TekScopes Owner / Moderator


 

Hi Dave,

If you feel something specific may have prompted this I am sorry to disappoint you. This was something I felt important to make crystal clear.

The internet is rapidly eroding the privacy of individuals everywhere on earth. Each of our members is entitled to the protections of, and governed by, their nation's privacy laws. But we are an organization comprised of members worldwide so it may be unclear what is allowed and not allowed. Another way to summarize what I was trying to say would be this:

"Becoming a member of TekScopes does not give a member permission to contact another member outside of TekScopes without prior permission."

Dennis Tillman W7PF

-----Original Message-----
From: TekScopes@groups.io [mailto:TekScopes@groups.io] On Behalf Of Dave
Daniel
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2018 11:05 AM
To: TekScopes@groups.io
Subject: Re: [TekScopes] TekScopes Policy Regarding Contacting Members
Off-List

Dennis,

What prompted your email regarding privacy?

DaveD


On 8/28/2018 1:27 PM, Dennis Tillman W7PF wrote:
TekScopes respects the privacy rights of its members. Those privacy
rights may be governed by their country's laws, and / or by your own
country's laws.



Email addresses, when included in the header of a post are for
reference only. They may not be published or "harvested" by any means.
They may not be used to contact someone directly, off list, unless you
have their prior permission.



That permission would be given in the form of a post to TekScopes
which would include the email address they wanted you to use. That
permission would be limited to the person or persons indicated in the
email and that permission would be limited to the subject matter
indicated in the email.



Dennis Tillman W7PF

TekScopes Owner / Moderator



--
Dennis Tillman W7PF
TekScopes Moderator

Richard Knoppow
 

If you own the list you can invent whatever rules you like. However, I think this one does not quite make sense and should be rethought. For one thing I suspect it violates the rights of communication. While this may apply only in the U.S. (maybe) I am not sure you have any right to control whom the members of your list can communicate with off list. I doubt if anyone would sue for violation of their civil rights for being tossed from this list but I think it remains possible. I would certainly consult with an attorney who is familiar with civil rights law before trying to enforce your rule. I suspect a lot of members here find this is not quite logical as stated. I doubt if it could stand up as a protection of the right of privacy; after all e-mail addresses are not secret, at least not many. Even those from "free" sources such as Yahoo or HotMail can be written to so are not secret although the subscribers may have another "real" address that is not made public.

On 8/30/2018 10:46 PM, Dennis Tillman W7PF wrote:
Hi Dave,
If you feel something specific may have prompted this I am sorry to disappoint you. This was something I felt important to make crystal clear.
The internet is rapidly eroding the privacy of individuals everywhere on earth. Each of our members is entitled to the protections of, and governed by, their nation's privacy laws. But we are an organization comprised of members worldwide so it may be unclear what is allowed and not allowed. Another way to summarize what I was trying to say would be this:

"Becoming a member of TekScopes does not give a member permission to contact another member outside of TekScopes without prior permission."
Dennis Tillman W7PF
--
Richard Knoppow
dickburk@...
WB6KBL

Dave Emery
 

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 10:46:05PM -0700, Dennis Tillman W7PF wrote:

"Becoming a member of TekScopes does not give a member permission to
contact another member outside of TekScopes without prior permission."
That is an interesting concept. This implies, I think, that
initiating interactions between members who do not know each other and
have not explicitly given permission in some visible public form for
private contact by other list members more or less MUST involve posting
a private message to the entire group but addressed to just one other
member requesting such permission if they do not have another means at
hand of establishing contact outside of the group. Otherwise how can
"prior permission" ever be established ?

Or do you intend to forbid even this, making it impossible to
privately contact someone whose postings suggest they might either have
information or a resource you need, or much more important obviously be
in need of something you do have and are glad to share with them ?

I would hope that if this is your policy you would create some
mechanism for group members to signal that it is OK for contact request
messages to be sent FROM OTHER GROUP MEMBERS to their email address as
listed (or PLEASE DON'T contact them at all) (or please use this other
address).

Not sure I want to read all those public contact requests
addressed to just one single member but broadcast to all. Nor do I
want to read private messages sent back and forth between members that
don't concern the subject of the group (Tek gear) and aren't of general
interest.

I do recognize that there are some email lists ("groups") where
such a rule might be required (but perhaps the problem better handled by
hiding poster email addresses as a feature of the group software), but a
serious technical list should not have to request that members never
attempt to contact posters who share common interests and specialized
resources - such contacts often lead to useful collaborations and
sharing of insights and information and generally further progress.

I think an argument can be made that being a public poster on a
technical quasi academic group (but perhaps not a lurker who never
posts) entitles other members in good standing of the group to politely
request a private conversation with that member regarding the subject of
his posting by some protocol or another. There are certainly many
situations where one might want to share information or resources or
ideas with a poster, but might not feel it appropriate to share that
material with a large quasi anonymous group of hundreds or thousands of
unknown other folks - some of whom one may strongly feel should not be
privy to what one might wish to communicate to a particular poster
himself.

And of course it should be appropriate to refuse such requests,
including by simply not replying. And NOT appropriate to endlessly
repeat them or use them to harass.

And abuse of such contact protocols should be a basis for
banning or suspension from the group.

But providing no protocol for initiating such a conversation
seems counter productive to the primary purpose of a group - exchange
of ideas and information...


--
Dave Emery N1PRE/AE, die@... DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass 02493
"An empty zombie mind with a forlorn barely readable weatherbeaten
'For Rent' sign still vainly flapping outside on the weed encrusted pole - in
celebration of what could have been, but wasn't and is not to be now either."

Craig Sawyers <c.sawyers@...>
 

That is an interesting concept. This implies, I think, that initiating interactions between
members who do not know each other and have not explicitly given permission in some visible public
form for private contact by other list members more or less MUST involve posting a private message
to the entire group but addressed to just one other member requesting such permission if they do
not have another means at hand of establishing contact outside of the group. Otherwise how can
"prior permission" ever be established ?
That is the same loop I got into. In other words, to get permission for A to contact B privately
requires a *public* message from A asking B's permission to contact them privately.

I've known Dennis for an eternity on Tekscopes, have contacted him privately in the past without any
hassle, so I hope he takes my post in good faith, and reworks the policy for improved clarity.

Craig (a Brit)

ArtekManuals
 

Dennis et All

I can make this easy.......

I Dave Henderson (AKA: ArtekManuals, AKA: Artek, AKA: -DC, AKA: manuals@...)
do hereby give ANY MEMBER of the Tekscopes List permission to send me private messages "OFF LIST".

(Whether I choose to reply is another matter :-))

For the record: Hence forth I have added this topic header to my list of emails to likely be deleted out of hand and usually without reading. This along with all those emails about seals for hydraulic pool motors, threads that were hijacked without changing the subject line (far and away a bigger problem than being contacted off list, and hydraulic pool motors)  and threads that have lost their relevance due to the fact that those replying don't include enough prior information from a prior post to make the reply relevant on a stand alone basis. I Also don't care much for lawyers, medical doctors and politicians regardless of their party affiliation. Did I cover it all?

Dennis ...SERIOUSLY and on a public note , let me thank you for taking on the thankless job of "herding cats " ( not so hard actually if you have a can of food) as moderator of this list.

Cheers
-DC
manuals@...

On 8/31/2018 3:53 AM, Craig Sawyers wrote:
That is an interesting concept. This implies, I think, that initiating interactions between
members who do not know each other and have not explicitly given permission in some visible public
form for private contact by other list members more or less MUST involve posting a private message
to the entire group but addressed to just one other member requesting such permission if they do
not have another means at hand of establishing contact outside of the group. Otherwise how can
"prior permission" ever be established ?
That is the same loop I got into. In other words, to get permission for A to contact B privately
requires a *public* message from A asking B's permission to contact them privately.

I've known Dennis for an eternity on Tekscopes, have contacted him privately in the past without any
hassle, so I hope he takes my post in good faith, and reworks the policy for improved clarity.

Craig (a Brit)




--
Dave
Manuals@...
www.ArtekManuals.com

Chuck Harris
 

I can feel my participation in these groups waning again...

Your permission is not at all important in my exercise of
my right to free association.

If you feel so strongly about preventing unwanted contact,
then it is on you to withhold the email addresses from
distribution to the members of the group.

If you do that, then I am gone...

-Chuck Harris

Dennis Tillman W7PF wrote:

Hi Dave,

If you feel something specific may have prompted this I am sorry to disappoint you. This was something I felt important to make crystal clear.

The internet is rapidly eroding the privacy of individuals everywhere on earth. Each of our members is entitled to the protections of, and governed by, their nation's privacy laws. But we are an organization comprised of members worldwide so it may be unclear what is allowed and not allowed. Another way to summarize what I was trying to say would be this:

"Becoming a member of TekScopes does not give a member permission to contact another member outside of TekScopes without prior permission."

Dennis Tillman W7PF

 

I don't often post on Tekscopes, but when I do, I am not likely to object to Tekscopes members contacting me off-list should they choose to do so. So this is a (slight) surprise, but I suppose the easiest way for me to adapt whenever I post to Tekscopes is for me to add the following statement (which I am now doing, and will try to remember to do in any future posts):

Feel free to contact me directly off-list in connection with this post if you wish.

Mike Dinolfo N4MWP

On 08/31/2018 01:46 AM, Dennis Tillman W7PF wrote:
Hi Dave,
If you feel something specific may have prompted this I am sorry to disappoint you. This was something I felt important to make crystal clear.
The internet is rapidly eroding the privacy of individuals everywhere on earth. Each of our members is entitled to the protections of, and governed by, their nation's privacy laws. But we are an organization comprised of members worldwide so it may be unclear what is allowed and not allowed. Another way to summarize what I was trying to say would be this:

"Becoming a member of TekScopes does not give a member permission to contact another member outside of TekScopes without prior permission."
Dennis Tillman W7PF

-----Original Message-----
From: TekScopes@groups.io [mailto:TekScopes@groups.io] On Behalf Of Dave
Daniel
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2018 11:05 AM
To: TekScopes@groups.io
Subject: Re: [TekScopes] TekScopes Policy Regarding Contacting Members
Off-List

Dennis,

What prompted your email regarding privacy?

DaveD


On 8/28/2018 1:27 PM, Dennis Tillman W7PF wrote:
TekScopes respects the privacy rights of its members. Those privacy
rights may be governed by their country's laws, and / or by your own
country's laws.



Email addresses, when included in the header of a post are for
reference only. They may not be published or "harvested" by any means.
They may not be used to contact someone directly, off list, unless you
have their prior permission.



That permission would be given in the form of a post to TekScopes
which would include the email address they wanted you to use. That
permission would be limited to the person or persons indicated in the
email and that permission would be limited to the subject matter
indicated in the email.



Dennis Tillman W7PF

TekScopes Owner / Moderator

Craig Sawyers <c.sawyers@...>
 

Feel free to contact me directly off-list in connection with this post if you wish.

Mike Dinolfo N4MWP
Good idea. Checking out my new signature



================================================
Please contact me off-list in connection to this post if you wish
================================================

Craig Sawyers <c.sawyers@...>
 

Seemed to screw up formatting. Trying again


================================================

Please contact me off-list in connection to this post if you wish

================================================

-----Original Message-----
From: TekScopes@groups.io [mailto:TekScopes@groups.io] On Behalf Of Craig Sawyers
Sent: 31 August 2018 14:21
To: TekScopes@groups.io
Subject: Re: [TekScopes] TekScopes Policy Regarding Contacting Members Off-List

Feel free to contact me directly off-list in connection with this post if you wish.

Mike Dinolfo N4MWP
Good idea. Checking out my new signature



================================================
Please contact me off-list in connection to this post if you wish
================================================





 

Over the years, I have felt free to contact other members to offer help, and to ask for help.
That private contact has, in a few cases, developed into lasting friendships, with shared interests and mutual co-operation.

No permission was requested, and no permission denied.
It was never necessary.

I consider all of us, with good reason, to be mature enough, that if we choose to not respond to an individual off-list email, then that would be respected.
On this group, I have NEVER had a problem with that at all.

I'm not aware of any spamming or porno attacks on this group, and if there was, I'd expect the perpetrator to be banned forthwith.

I also would not want my mailbox filled with unnecessary public messages requesting private contact with other members.

If someone has caused a problem, I think the best solution would be to take it up privately with that member, and solve it right there, without imposing draconian restrictions on the entire group. It reminds me too much of "Big Brother is watching you", and I think on this group, we are not part of that mindset, and have no wish to be.

Menahem

Dave Daniel
 

Dennis,

Ok, thanks.

DaveD

On 8/31/2018 1:46 AM, Dennis Tillman W7PF wrote:
Hi Dave,

If you feel something specific may have prompted this I am sorry to disappoint you. This was something I felt important to make crystal clear.

The internet is rapidly eroding the privacy of individuals everywhere on earth. Each of our members is entitled to the protections of, and governed by, their nation's privacy laws. But we are an organization comprised of members worldwide so it may be unclear what is allowed and not allowed. Another way to summarize what I was trying to say would be this:

"Becoming a member of TekScopes does not give a member permission to contact another member outside of TekScopes without prior permission."

Dennis Tillman W7PF


-----Original Message-----
From: TekScopes@groups.io [mailto:TekScopes@groups.io] On Behalf Of Dave
Daniel
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2018 11:05 AM
To: TekScopes@groups.io
Subject: Re: [TekScopes] TekScopes Policy Regarding Contacting Members
Off-List

Dennis,

What prompted your email regarding privacy?

DaveD


On 8/28/2018 1:27 PM, Dennis Tillman W7PF wrote:
TekScopes respects the privacy rights of its members. Those privacy
rights may be governed by their country's laws, and / or by your own
country's laws.



Email addresses, when included in the header of a post are for
reference only. They may not be published or "harvested" by any means.
They may not be used to contact someone directly, off list, unless you
have their prior permission.



That permission would be given in the form of a post to TekScopes
which would include the email address they wanted you to use. That
permission would be limited to the person or persons indicated in the
email and that permission would be limited to the subject matter
indicated in the email.


Dennis Tillman W7PF

TekScopes Owner / Moderator

Reginald Beardsley
 

"Becoming a member of TekScopes does not give a member permission to contact another member outside of TekScopes without prior permission."

This is absurd. It's like the Red Queen's rules in "Through the Looking Glass."

Colin Herbert
 

I can see Dennis' concern here. We in the UK have been bombarded with requests for permission to contact by email, as the Government is bringing in new legislation concerning privacy, including on-line privacy. Of course, this only applies to UK organisations, so it might be a bit pointless. Trolls are not restricted to living in the UK. The Moderator(s) of this forum do a great job in vetting requests for membership, but I suppose a few might just be crafty enough to get through. However when those get to being active nuisances, they can be barred.

Another Forum that I am a member of (and I believe that some members here are, too) has a facility for contacting other members by "Private Message" and also by email. I think the latter is something that can be optional, as not every member shows the possibility. It is probably an option that can be set in a member's profile. If something like this could be set up in Tekscopes, that might solve some of this dilemma. The Private Messages do not divulge the email address of the person being contacted and the conversation remains solely on the Forum, but can be continued by email if the participants wish.

Oddly enough, personal email addresses appear in the headers of Tekscopes messages, either openly, or in a covert form. I would have thought that if privacy were a big concern that showing these email addresses should be optional. Those members that are happy to have their email address publicised would then be those that did not object to being contacted individually, perhaps.

Just a few thoughts and yes, I don't mind getting personal emails, but I reserve the right to not acknowledge them or to reply (but I probably would, anyway).

Regards, Colin.

Daniel Koller
 

Hi Folks,
  Do we not relinquish our "right to privacy" when we sign up to what is essentially a public forum, by joining a group such as this one?   Consider the analogy in a public forum.  If I walk up to a group of people and meet face to face, I might not give my real name, but I certainly can't prevent someone in the group from speaking to me directly, or even whispering something in my ear.   
  The point is, by joining this group, we are not *expecting* an absolute right to privacy.  We voluntarily give out contact e-mail to join, and it's then understood that other members of the group might contact us via that e-mail.   I think to restrict the communication would undermine the purpose of this group, which is explicitly to *reach out* to other like minded and interested people.   It should perhaps be stated when one joins this group, that their right to remain "private" is forfeited to some extent.  Got to leave it to lawyers to figure out how to word that...
  And of course, I still have my work e-mail and private email addresses that I use for other purposes, and of  course it is NOT ok to contact me via those means unless I have explicitly given consent and provided an e-mail.  That's how we can maintain some degree of privacy.  In the open forum analogy above, that's like not using my real name when I meet a group of people.  Most of use choose to give our real names, but some, for whatever reasons, might not feel comfortable with that, so they use a separate e-mail address for groups.  
    But to be clear, I don't care what the "laws" of any given country say with regard to how my e-mail is to be used.  I fully expect that if I give my e-mail to anyone, it is eventually going to get into the hands of a malicious party and be used to contact me with spam, or whatever.   That is why I still use Yahoo mail for many things.  It's a "disposable" address.   If you want to remain private at a given e-mail address, your only option is not to give it out to anyone.
   I think "common sense" should prevail here.  I hate to use that expression, because sometimes someone's Idea of what makes sense is far from common, but for the most part it has worked exceptionally well with this group, as well as the HP equipment group.   I remember well the late 1990's when 50% of otherwise innocuous posts would end up starting some sort of "flame war" on the Usenet groups.   It was a disaster, and led to the demise of the Usenet groups.   If you want a reminder, just check out, e.g. rec.crafts.metalworking, and see how badly it is filled up with politics, sex, ads, trolling.  It's almost completely useless.  Google "eternal september" if you want more info.
  I should also thank Dennis and the moderators, because it's also through their help that this group has remained so productive and useful, and a pleasant place to be on the internet.
  Dan

On Friday, August 31, 2018, 10:33:25 AM EDT, Colin Herbert via Groups.Io <colingherbert=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:

I can see Dennis' concern here. We in the UK have been bombarded with requests for permission to contact by email, as the Government is bringing in new legislation concerning privacy, including on-line privacy. Of course, this only applies to UK organisations, so it might be a bit pointless. Trolls are not restricted to living in the UK. The Moderator(s) of this forum do a great job in vetting requests for membership, but I suppose a few might just be crafty enough to get through. However when those get to being active nuisances, they can be barred.

Another Forum that I am a member of (and I believe that some members here are, too) has a facility for contacting other members by "Private Message" and also by email. I think the latter is something that can be optional, as not every member shows the possibility. It is probably an option that can be set in a member's profile. If something like this could be set up in Tekscopes, that might solve some of this dilemma. The Private Messages do not divulge the email address of the person being contacted and the conversation remains solely on the Forum, but can be continued by email if the participants wish.

Oddly enough, personal email addresses appear in the headers of Tekscopes messages, either openly, or in a covert form. I would have thought that if privacy were a big concern that showing these email addresses should be optional. Those members that are happy to have their email address publicised would then be those that did not object to being contacted individually, perhaps.

Just a few thoughts and yes, I don't mind getting personal emails, but I reserve the right to not acknowledge them or to reply (but I probably would, anyway).

Regards, Colin.

John Ferguson
 

Another aspect to this issue is that direct emailing  allows a drawn out dialogue which may not be of interest to most members to be shunted off to a correspondence between the two people for whom it is interesting.

And of course there is the additional benefit of finding friends, not that you aren't all friends already.

John

Vincent Trouilliez
 

Well I have only been on this forum for a year or so I think, so not sure if my point of view is that relevant...but sure as hell I would not want to have to publicly ask for permission to talk to X or Y, like I were a 5 year old in the class, asking the mistress if I can do this or that... :-/

Would not want the traffic on this list to be "polluted" by a stream of such messages that pertain to only one single member, either....

I can see only friendly and reasonable and helpful people on this forum, I hardly feel the urge to "hide" behind some firewall/protocol...

The whole point of joining this group is to get in touch with like-minded people... hiding behind a protocol would defeat the original intent...

I have never received any spam or anything I would consider a nuisance in any way shape or form.
and if I ever did, it would be easy enough to just discard/delete the mail, and if the attack was directed to the entire group, the account could just be deleted.

In short, I strongly feel that this is basically a non-issue on the present group, and that trying to enforce some protocol would just create even more of a nuisance than the thing it's trying to combat...

I say just deal with any problem that might arise, on a case by case basis...

I would much rather have to delete the odd e-mail from the rare/occasional low life, than having to force all other, perfectly decent people, to have to go through some protocol, especially it it implies flooding/polluting the entire group with irrelevant messages.


If I had to "complain", in quotes eh, of something on this group, or any group, or any web based forum, that would be people wasting BW and huge amounts of screen real estate, when they quote several pages worth of text, either below and/or above their reply, instead of editing it out to quote only the very 2 or 3 line snippet(s) that they are actually replying to ! How hard can that be ? The "delete" key is no stiffer to press than the other keys on the keyboard ! LOL ....


Anyway, I say just leave it as it is...

Still, as others have already said Dennis, thanks a lot for taking the time to "run" this group.. but on this particular topic I think you are worrying for nothing :-)


Regards,


Vincent Trouilliez


= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
He who wishes to contact me privately about the present topic, should feel free and welcome to do so...
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Carsten Bormann
 

Good to know, but without consequences: I didn't need that permission given to me because I already have it.

If you wanted to say something about "socially acceptable", that would be weird in a group like this and will be ignored, as others have said.

If this was meant as a gdpr-like CYA disclaimer, we can all ignore it and go back to useful discussion.

Sent from mobile

On 31. Aug 2018, at 06:46, Dennis Tillman W7PF <@Dennis_Tillman_W7PF> wrote:

"Becoming a member of TekScopes does not give a member permission to contact another member outside of TekScopes without prior permission."