Topics

Homemade tunnel diodes

 

Sam Zeloof made some negative resistance tunnel diodes. I wonder if his
approach could ever be refined to where we can make our own sampler diodes.
See below for curve tracer plots.

https://twitter.com/szeloof/status/1006586519732224000

John Griessen
 

On 07/14/2018 01:42 AM, cheater cheater wrote:
Sam Zeloof made some negative resistance tunnel diodes. I wonder if his
approach could ever be refined to where we can make our own sampler diodes.
See below for curve tracer plots.
We have piezo movers for tiny motions now at easy prices, so maybe a dipping or
Czochralsky pulling process could be automated easier, but working with glowing hot melt is
not easy DIY. (I've done bronze).

--
John Griessen -- building lab gear for biologists
Ecosensory Austin TX blog.kitmatic.com

snapdiode
 

But "sampler diodes" are not tunnel diodes?

Craig Sawyers <c.sawyers@...>
 

But "sampler diodes" are not tunnel diodes?
Correct.

Craig

 

And we have modern replacements for sampler diodes in the form of low
voltage low capacitance microwave mixing diodes. Although Avago (old
HP and now Broadcom) has discontinued theirs, they are still readily
available from others.

On Sat, 14 Jul 2018 13:27:29 -0700, you wrote:

But "sampler diodes" are not tunnel diodes?

Jim Ford
 

Yep, Broadcom Ltd. continues to shed product lines and employees.  They shed me a couple years ago, but haha, I got a better job immediately, took their severance package, and got 2 months off with pay due to the WARN Act!  Best thing that ever happened to me!
Just a shame that corporate raider Hock Tan is gutting yet another great company.....   Not good for the USA.


Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

-------- Original message --------From: David Hess <@DWH> Date: 7/15/18 8:27 AM (GMT-08:00) To: TekScopes@groups.io Subject: Re: [TekScopes] Homemade tunnel diodes
And we have modern replacements for sampler diodes in the form of low
voltage low capacitance microwave mixing diodes.  Although Avago (old
HP and now Broadcom) has discontinued theirs, they are still readily
available from others.

On Sat, 14 Jul 2018 13:27:29 -0700, you wrote:

But "sampler diodes" are not tunnel diodes?

 

The part I find annoying is now I have to qualify new parts from
someone else which means going through a lot of datasheets. I wish
someone had at least picked up the HP/Avago parts.

One advantage of the HP parts was extensive documentation in old
datasheets and application notes which is lacking for the
alternatives.

On Sun, 15 Jul 2018 11:05:19 -0700, you wrote:

Yep, Broadcom Ltd. continues to shed product lines and employees.  They shed me a couple years ago, but haha, I got a better job immediately, took their severance package, and got 2 months off with pay due to the WARN Act!  Best thing that ever happened to me!
Just a shame that corporate raider Hock Tan is gutting yet another great company.....   Not good for the USA.

Jim Ford
 

Yeah, qualifying substitutes for obsolete parts is a pain!  Job security, though. :-)


Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

-------- Original message --------From: David Hess <@DWH> Date: 7/15/18 11:39 AM (GMT-08:00) To: TekScopes@groups.io Subject: Re: [TekScopes] Homemade tunnel diodes
The part I find annoying is now I have to qualify new parts from
someone else which means going through a lot of datasheets.  I wish
someone had at least picked up the HP/Avago parts.

One advantage of the HP parts was extensive documentation in old
datasheets and application notes which is lacking for the
alternatives.

On Sun, 15 Jul 2018 11:05:19 -0700, you wrote:

Yep, Broadcom Ltd. continues to shed product lines and employees.  They shed me a couple years ago, but haha, I got a better job immediately, took their severance package, and got 2 months off with pay due to the WARN Act!  Best thing that ever happened to me!
Just a shame that corporate raider Hock Tan is gutting yet another great company.....   Not good for the USA.

Leo Bodnar
 

This is hardly relevant, but it might be of interest to note that many TVS diodes exhibit negative resistance section.

I have made a proof-of concept oscillator that uses a TVS as an oscillator. Probably one of the simplest oscillators you can make.

https://twitter.com/LeoBodnar/status/920243213516070914

Leo

Joseph Strickland
 

Leo;
What frequency range have you discovered with the "tunnel" diode that you chose?
Joe

Leo Bodnar
 

Joseph,
I got it working at about 1MHz. This is not high by any standard but I was excited to make it oscillate at all.
Frequency depends on RC network time constant.
Leo

thespin@...
 

Modern mixer diodes are great but I have yet to find a good replacement for step recovery diodes.

Bruce Griffiths
 

For the purposes of harmonic generation NLTLs have much lower PN than SRDs.
Bruce

On 24 July 2018 at 05:37 thespin@... wrote:


Modern mixer diodes are great but I have yet to find a good replacement for step recovery diodes.


Jose Luu
 

I did not know about NLTLs, thanks Bruce for the heads up.

For those in my case, I have found a few references on the net:
https://www.reddit.com/r/rfelectronics/comments/1dkfsx/nltl_low_phase_noise_comb_generators_any/
https://etd.auburn.edu/xmlui/bitstream/handle/10415/2564/HaiLu%27s%20Thesis.pdf?sequence=2&isAllowed=y
https://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstream/handle/2027.42/84461/dmfrench_1.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

All documents refer to simulations made using Spice/LTSPice/ADS

Not many people seem to have made DIY NLTL, let alone samplers based on it.

On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 10:26 PM Bruce Griffiths <bruce.griffiths@...>
wrote:

For the purposes of harmonic generation NLTLs have much lower PN than SRDs.
Bruce

On 24 July 2018 at 05:37 thespin@... wrote:


Modern mixer diodes are great but I have yet to find a good replacement
for step recovery diodes.




Ed Breya
 

Jose said:
"Not many people seem to have made DIY NLTL, let alone samplers based on it."

This is probably true, because NLTLs usually have lots of stages, so can get very big and complicated before you get remarkable compression. For simplicity and effectiveness, a single SRD/varactor of the right type, in the right circuit environment, is pretty hard to beat for straight up impulse generation or frequency multiplication. A whole bunch of them cascaded can form a NLTL, with its edge-enhancement and wide BW. As always, it depends on the particulars of the application.

I don't think there's a need for a "modern" replacement for the SRD/varactor. It's a common RF part - not at all an obsolete technology. Nowadays there are alternatives for many applications, by using fast active devices capable of appropriate edge speeds.

Ed

Michael A. Terrell
 

John Larkin of Highland Technology has posted a lot of comments about doing this on the news:sci.electronics.design Usenet newsgroup. His company does a lot of high speed system designs for other high tech companies. You can access that group through Google Groups to contact him, or just to read his comments.


Michael A. Terrell

-----Original Message-----
From: "Ed Breya via Groups.Io" <edbreya=yahoo.com@groups.io>
Sent: Jul 24, 2018 12:31 PM
To: TekScopes@groups.io
Subject: Re: [TekScopes] Homemade tunnel diodes

Jose said:
"Not many people seem to have made DIY NLTL, let alone samplers based on it."

This is probably true, because NLTLs usually have lots of stages, so can get very big and complicated before you get remarkable compression. For simplicity and effectiveness, a single SRD/varactor of the right type, in the right circuit environment, is pretty hard to beat for straight up impulse generation or frequency multiplication. A whole bunch of them cascaded can form a NLTL, with its edge-enhancement and wide BW. As always, it depends on the particulars of the application.

I don't think there's a need for a "modern" replacement for the SRD/varactor. It's a common RF part - not at all an obsolete technology. Nowadays there are alternatives for many applications, by using fast active devices capable of appropriate edge speeds.

Ed

Craig Sawyers <c.sawyers@...>
 

FWIW non-linear optical methods are used to compress the length of laser light pulses. Somewhat
analogous to NLTL's, but at 10^14Hz.

https://www.rp-photonics.com/pulse_compression.html

Craig

-----Original Message-----
From: TekScopes@groups.io [mailto:TekScopes@groups.io] On Behalf Of Ed Breya via Groups.Io
Sent: 24 July 2018 17:32
To: TekScopes@groups.io
Subject: Re: [TekScopes] Homemade tunnel diodes

Jose said:
"Not many people seem to have made DIY NLTL, let alone samplers based on it."

This is probably true, because NLTLs usually have lots of stages, so can get very big and
complicated
before you get remarkable compression. For simplicity and effectiveness, a single SRD/varactor of
the
right type, in the right circuit environment, is pretty hard to beat for straight up impulse
generation or
frequency multiplication. A whole bunch of them cascaded can form a NLTL, with its edge-
enhancement and wide BW. As always, it depends on the particulars of the application.

I don't think there's a need for a "modern" replacement for the SRD/varactor. It's a common RF
part -
not at all an obsolete technology. Nowadays there are alternatives for many applications, by using
fast
active devices capable of appropriate edge speeds.

Ed

Mark Kahrs
 

I hate to disagree with Jose, but there have been a fair number of papers
on constructing NLTLs --- some even using discrete diodes.
If you'd like to read a review of the patents, may I refer you to this
short paper? I know the author personally.

Patents and Microwave Measurements-Nonlinear Transmission Lines [TCC
Tidbits] <https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/7484899/>
<https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/7484899/>IEEE Microwave Magazine
<https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/RecentIssue.jsp?punumber=6668>


Year: 2016, Volume: 17, Issue: 7
<https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/tocresult.jsp?isnumber=7484803>
Pages: 78 - 81

On Tue, Jul 24, 2018 at 1:00 PM, Craig Sawyers <
c.sawyers@...> wrote:

FWIW non-linear optical methods are used to compress the length of laser
light pulses. Somewhat
analogous to NLTL's, but at 10^14Hz.

https://www.rp-photonics.com/pulse_compression.html

Craig

-----Original Message-----
From: TekScopes@groups.io [mailto:TekScopes@groups.io] On Behalf Of Ed
Breya via Groups.Io
Sent: 24 July 2018 17:32
To: TekScopes@groups.io
Subject: Re: [TekScopes] Homemade tunnel diodes

Jose said:
"Not many people seem to have made DIY NLTL, let alone samplers based on
it."

This is probably true, because NLTLs usually have lots of stages, so can
get very big and
complicated
before you get remarkable compression. For simplicity and effectiveness,
a single SRD/varactor of
the
right type, in the right circuit environment, is pretty hard to beat for
straight up impulse
generation or
frequency multiplication. A whole bunch of them cascaded can form a
NLTL, with its edge-
enhancement and wide BW. As always, it depends on the particulars of the
application.

I don't think there's a need for a "modern" replacement for the
SRD/varactor. It's a common RF
part -
not at all an obsolete technology. Nowadays there are alternatives for
many applications, by using
fast
active devices capable of appropriate edge speeds.

Ed





Bruce Griffiths
 

On 25 July 2018 at 13:56 Mark Kahrs <mark.kahrs@...> wrote:


I hate to disagree with Jose, but there have been a fair number of papers
on constructing NLTLs --- some even using discrete diodes.
If you'd like to read a review of the patents, may I refer you to this
short paper? I know the author personally.

Patents and Microwave Measurements-Nonlinear Transmission Lines [TCC
Tidbits] <https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/7484899/>
<https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/7484899/>IEEE Microwave Magazine
<https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/RecentIssue.jsp?punumber=6668>


Year: 2016, Volume: 17, Issue: 7
<https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/tocresult.jsp?isnumber=7484803>
Pages: 78 - 81

On Tue, Jul 24, 2018 at 1:00 PM, Craig Sawyers <
c.sawyers@...> wrote:

FWIW non-linear optical methods are used to compress the length of laser
light pulses. Somewhat
analogous to NLTL's, but at 10^14Hz.

https://www.rp-photonics.com/pulse_compression.html

Craig

-----Original Message-----
From: TekScopes@groups.io [mailto:TekScopes@groups.io] On Behalf Of Ed
Breya via Groups.Io
Sent: 24 July 2018 17:32
To: TekScopes@groups.io
Subject: Re: [TekScopes] Homemade tunnel diodes

Jose said:
"Not many people seem to have made DIY NLTL, let alone samplers based on
it."

This is probably true, because NLTLs usually have lots of stages, so can
get very big and
complicated
before you get remarkable compression. For simplicity and effectiveness,
a single SRD/varactor of
the
right type, in the right circuit environment, is pretty hard to beat for
straight up impulse
generation or
frequency multiplication. A whole bunch of them cascaded can form a
NLTL, with its edge-
enhancement and wide BW. As always, it depends on the particulars of the
application.

I don't think there's a need for a "modern" replacement for the
SRD/varactor. It's a common RF
part -
not at all an obsolete technology. Nowadays there are alternatives for
many applications, by using
fast
active devices capable of appropriate edge speeds.

Ed






Jose Luu
 

Thanks for the documents. It indeed seems a good subject for tinkering and
having fun building samplers.



On Jul 25, 2018 9:46 AM, "Bruce Griffiths" <bruce.griffiths@...>
wrote:

http://www.its.caltech.edu/~hajimiri/pdf/non-linear.transmission.pdf
1N4007's have been used in high voltage discrete NLTLs.

Anritsu use NLTLs in theire VNA samplers:
https://www.anritsu.com/en-US/test-measurement/technologies/shockline-nltl

Even Ceramic capacitors have been tried:
http://plutao.sid.inpe.br/col/dpi.inpe.br/plutao/2011/11.23.
18.50.18/doc/06085283.pdf?languagebutton=pt-BR

Bruce
On 25 July 2018 at 13:56 Mark Kahrs <mark.kahrs@...> wrote:


I hate to disagree with Jose, but there have been a fair number of papers
on constructing NLTLs --- some even using discrete diodes.
If you'd like to read a review of the patents, may I refer you to this
short paper? I know the author personally.

Patents and Microwave Measurements-Nonlinear Transmission Lines [TCC
Tidbits] <https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/7484899/>
<https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/7484899/>IEEE Microwave Magazine
<https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/RecentIssue.jsp?punumber=6668>


Year: 2016, Volume: 17, Issue: 7
<https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/tocresult.jsp?isnumber=7484803>
Pages: 78 - 81

On Tue, Jul 24, 2018 at 1:00 PM, Craig Sawyers <
c.sawyers@...> wrote:

FWIW non-linear optical methods are used to compress the length of
laser
light pulses. Somewhat
analogous to NLTL's, but at 10^14Hz.

https://www.rp-photonics.com/pulse_compression.html

Craig

-----Original Message-----
From: TekScopes@groups.io [mailto:TekScopes@groups.io] On Behalf Of
Ed
Breya via Groups.Io
Sent: 24 July 2018 17:32
To: TekScopes@groups.io
Subject: Re: [TekScopes] Homemade tunnel diodes

Jose said:
"Not many people seem to have made DIY NLTL, let alone samplers
based on
it."

This is probably true, because NLTLs usually have lots of stages, so
can
get very big and
complicated
before you get remarkable compression. For simplicity and
effectiveness,
a single SRD/varactor of
the
right type, in the right circuit environment, is pretty hard to beat
for
straight up impulse
generation or
frequency multiplication. A whole bunch of them cascaded can form a
NLTL, with its edge-
enhancement and wide BW. As always, it depends on the particulars of
the
application.

I don't think there's a need for a "modern" replacement for the
SRD/varactor. It's a common RF
part -
not at all an obsolete technology. Nowadays there are alternatives
for
many applications, by using
fast
active devices capable of appropriate edge speeds.

Ed