Is Shawn (KJ7MX) on here?

I'm asking in reference to the eBay listing for printings of the 2236 manual:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tektronix-2236-Instruction-Manual-Comb-Bound-Protective-Plastic-Covers-/202236430753?_trksid=p2385738.m4383.l4275.c10

Seems the original Tek manuals for 2236 are a bit difficult to come by, so I'm considering purchasing the above.

I'm curious which version of the manual it is. There are several listed on the Tek Wiki. My SN is 017799 so I think relatively early. I would prefer having the correct manual for this SN.

Thanks,
Dave

Dave,

Were you wanting a "SERVICE" Manual? Because this is an "OPERATORS" Manual. These are not typically used for repairs and do not always contain detailed repair information, at least not in any of the Operators manuals that I have for my scopes.

--
Michael Lynch
Dardanelle, AR

I don't understand why the service manual for this particular scope is so hard to find, when the service manuals for older scopes are relatively common. This was not a particularly expensive scope for its day; you would think it would have been fairly popular.

The scopes themselves are also relatively uncommon, at least judging by the number we see on eBay. Was there a reason that these didn't sell in large numbers?

-- Jeff Dutky

I suspect it's a combination of price, market demand, and the shift away from customer serviceability.
Was it markedly more expensive for features that most buyers didn't have a lot of utility for? I'm just getting started on the CTM functionality. Not exactly a frequency counter, not exactly a multimeter. I can see it being perceived as an unnecessary extravagance at the time. I have no knowledge of the price differences between these 2200 series models at the time. I'm personally enjoying it, but I'm hardly typical.
Was the service manual an on request thing, that also possibly/probably cost extra? The front page of the 2236 service manual starts with "Warning Following ... for qualified personnel only ...". Nothing of the sort in the 465 manual. Don't know if the 465s came with the service manual or if it was an on request thing.
I was a 400 series user in the 80's, but never a Tek customer (Army). So all above is just wonderings and supposition on my part. I can't say I'm terribly surprised.
The seller responded through eBay and is looking into the viability of making a hard copy. In the meantime I'm muddling along with the online PDFs. Thank goodness for those who've made these available.
Dave

I managed to find a printed copy of this manual. I was surprised at its
size - it is at least two inches thick. It is thicker than the service
manual for the 7L5 spectrum analyzer. The 2336 brochure (see TekWiki) does
say that the purchase price includes both the operator's guide and service
manual. The operator's manual is quite slim and designed to fit in the
accessory pouch. It may be more extensive if it was being sold to the US
military because of the requirements for the Operator Organizational Field
and Depot Maintenance Manuals (a rather clumsy initialism: OOFDMM) however,
these usually carry a Technical Manual (TM) number.

Steve H.

On Fri, Jan 22, 2021 at 9:06 PM Dave Peterson via groups.io <davidpinsf=
yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

I suspect it's a combination of price, market demand, and the shift away
from customer serviceability.
Was it markedly more expensive for features that most buyers didn't have a
lot of utility for? I'm just getting started on the CTM functionality. Not
exactly a frequency counter, not exactly a multimeter. I can see it being
perceived as an unnecessary extravagance at the time. I have no knowledge
of the price differences between these 2200 series models at the time. I'm
personally enjoying it, but I'm hardly typical.
Was the service manual an on request thing, that also possibly/probably
cost extra? The front page of the 2236 service manual starts with "Warning
Following ... for qualified personnel only ...". Nothing of the sort in the
465 manual. Don't know if the 465s came with the service manual or if it
was an on request thing.
I was a 400 series user in the 80's, but never a Tek customer (Army). So
all above is just wonderings and supposition on my part. I can't say I'm
terribly surprised.
The seller responded through eBay and is looking into the viability of
making a hard copy. In the meantime I'm muddling along with the online
PDFs. Thank goodness for those who've made these available.
Dave

On Friday, January 22, 2021, 04:38:27 PM PST, Jeff Dutky <
jeff.dutky@gmail.com> wrote:

I don't understand why the service manual for this particular scope is so
hard to find, when the service manuals for older scopes are relatively
common. This was not a particularly expensive scope for its day; you would
think it would have been fairly popular.

The scopes themselves are also relatively uncommon, at least judging by
the number we see on eBay. Was there a reason that these didn't sell in
large numbers?

-- Jeff Dutky

From the 1984 Tek catalog, the portable oscilloscope selection, for everything with more than 50 MHz bandwidth, was (ordered by price):

$1,200: 2213, 60 MHz, 2 channel
$1,450: 2215, 60 MHz, 2 channel
$1,650: 2235, 100 MHz, 2 channel
$2,650: 2236, 100 MHz, 2 channel, counter/timer/multimeter
$2,795: 2335, 100 MHz, 2 channel
$2,995: 2336, 100 MHz, 2 channel delta time
$3,250: 2445, 150 MHz, 4 channel, delta volts, delta time
$3,395: 2337, 100 MHz, 2 channel, delta time, multimeter
$4,750: 2465, 300 MHz, 4 channel, delta volts, delta time
$4,010: 465M, 100 MHz, 2 channel
$6,245: 464, 100 MHz, 2 channel, analog storage, timer/multimeter
$6,500: 468, 100 MHz, 2 channel, digital storage, timer/multimeter
$7,640: 466, 100 MHz, 2 channel, analog storage, timer/multimeter
$8,320: 485, 350 MHz, 2 channel

The 2236 was not only the cheapest scope with a full counter/timer/multimeter, but it was nearly the cheapest 100 MHz scope in the lineup. The only thing I can think is that the 2236 just didn't compare favorably enough against the 2445 which, for only $500 extra, gives you four traces (albeit with two of those traces significantly limited), on-screen cursors and readout, nearly as good voltage and time measurements, and higher bandwidth.

The 2235, which had a military version and sold by the palletful, is common as dirt. Maybe the civilian version, which was $1000 cheaper, leeched sales from the 2236? If you didn't want the CTM, why not buy the cheaper model, and if you did want the CTM, why not splurge for the 2445 and get more traces and bandwidth and sexy on-screen readout and cursors?

The thing is, I'm just guessing about all of this. I was in high school at the time, and only marginally interested in electrical engineering, and I don't know any of the details of how things were going in the oscilloscope market.

-- Jeff Dutky

Thanks for looking up the prices and putting all the data in one easy-to-find place, Jeff.

It’s fun to see, for example, that the 485 cost the equivalent of $20k today. It was evidently not targeted at the weekend hobbyist. :)

Tom

Sent from my iThing, so please forgive typos and brevity.

That's quite a leap from the 2235 to the 2236. Yeah, I think it'd be a fair guess as to why the 2235 is literally available by the pallet on eBay today, and the 2236 not so much.

Any chance of taking that manual off your hands Steve? Yeah, I don't think so. Hang on to that thing guy. It's worth some cabbage! Oof. I don't think the guy offering printed manuals on eBay is going to be keen to put that beast together.

The insights have been fun.
Dave

Tom,

No, it most certainly was not. A fully optioned Chevy Caprice Classic cost half as much as 485 around that same time.

It's fascinating, however, that the 2465, which has many of the same features, and almost the same bandwidth as the 485, was quite economical by comparison. I'm fascinated by the fact that the 2465 also neatly replaces both the 475 and 475A at the mid-$4000 price point, but outdoes both scopes in features. The more I look at the catalogs, the more it seems like the 2236 was ill conceived. There would have been buyers who had spent the previous 10 years salivating over a 475, who were suddenly presented with something in the same price range, but with the features of an instrument twice as expensive. I would not have been able to resist that kind of temptation, I am sure.

I've read the memo to sales on the release of the 465 and 475 in 1972 (https://w140.com/tekwiki/images/4/4e/Tek_465_and_475_marketing_sales_release.pdf), and I can only imagine that a similar memo must have been circulated on the release of the 2445 and 2465.

Steve,

I'd be interested to know what the printing date is at the bottom of the first page of your copy of the 2236 service manual.

-- Jeff Dutky

Oops! My bad. Momentary dyslexia or something like that. I misread the
original message as 2336 instead of 2236. It is a 2336-YA manual that I
found on eBay. Sorry for the mistake.

Steve H

Morning All!

I had a 2445. As far as I was concerned, it was clumsy
for what I do. I service antique radios and comm gear.
You have to play games with the 2445 to get an actual
freq readout and that depends on cursor settings. The
2236 is the only scope, that I'm aware of, that has a
dedicated freq readout in 8 digits on the front panel
without any other settings or connections besides the
probe to the circuit. Push a button and you get a voltage
readout. It's unique in those features. I have 2 2235's
and 2 2236's. A bunch of us in the antique radio world
who do service work have that scope just because of the
features that I described. In one box you have the freq
counter, scope, and DVM. I've not found anything else
that will do all that, and have a 100 Mhz bandwidth. If you
look at the prices, there was a $1000 dollar jump between
prices. Service on one is FUN. Taking that CTM board
out of there is not easy and you have to do that to get to
things like the power supply. It does have a feature that
lets you fold up the CTM board to do calibrations, but you
won't do any repair work to the main board with out
removing the CTM board and that's a pain.

The other advantage, IMHO, is that there is no volatile
ram or batteries that need special attention. All those
things about the 2445 is what lead me to sell the 2445b
that I had in favor of the 2236. Just my opinion



On 22 Jan 2021 at 20:03, Jeff Dutky wrote:

$1,650: 2235, 100 MHz, 2 channel
$2,650: 2236, 100 MHz, 2 channel, counter/timer/multimeter

The 2236 was not only the cheapest scope with a full
counter/timer/multimeter, but it was nearly the cheapest 100 MHz
scope in the lineup. The only thing I can think is that the 2236
just didn't compare favorably enough against the 2445 which, for
only $500 extra, gives you four traces (albeit with two of those
traces significantly limited), on-screen cursors and readout, nearly
as good voltage and time measurements, and higher bandwidth.

-- Jeff Dutky

Kim Herron W8ZV
kim.herron@sbcglobal.net
1-616-677-3706

On 2021-01-22 11:28 p.m., Dave Peterson via groups.io wrote:

That's quite a leap from the 2235 to the 2236. Yeah, I think it'd be a fair guess as to why the 2235 is literally available by the pallet on eBay today, and the 2236 not so much.

Any chance of taking that manual off your hands Steve? Yeah, I don't think so. Hang on to that thing guy. It's worth some cabbage! Oof. I don't think the guy offering printed manuals on eBay is going to be keen to put that beast together.

I was going to make the same request, but not to own it, just to scan it
for TekWiki. There are some manuals there already
(https://w140.com/tekwiki/wiki/2236) but not sure if they include the
one Steve obtained.

If anyone else has Tek manuals they would like to see scanned and on
Tekwiki, contact me privately. (Of course they can be returned)

I've put a few up already.

--Toby

The insights have been fun.
Dave

I'm using the PDFs from the Tek Wiki for now. Prefer hard copy.

I went though all of the PDFs for the 2236 on Tek Wiki yesterday to find the right one to recommend to the eBay seller for printing. He said he'd look through his library as he has several Tek manuals prepped for printing, but not up for sale. I think he goes through the PDFs and cleans up as he can. He hasn't gotten back to me.

Steve scared me a bit describing what he had on hand, but that was a mistaken identity. I don't get the impression that the 2236 SM is any bigger/worse than a 465 SM, but I have yet to see pictures of a hard copy. If the eBay seller isn't up for building a nice hard copy from the PDFs (at a reasonable/realistic price - I'm fair, but not spendthrift) available I'll probably print the schematics and board layouts for myself. I have access to B-size sheets.

Or if anyone is willing to sell me a copy!? Nudge-nudge, wink-wink? Seriously, if anyone's willing to part with a useful copy (like not a 2236A - I'm picky that way), I'd appreciate the opportunity.

Thanks all,
Dave

On Sat, Jan 23, 2021 at 8:25 AM kim.herron@sbcglobal.net <
kim.herron@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

I had a 2445. As far as I was concerned, it was clumsy
for what I do. I service antique radios and comm gear.
You have to play games with the 2445 to get an actual
freq readout and that depends on cursor settings. The
2236 is the only scope, that I'm aware of, that has a
dedicated freq readout in 8 digits on the front panel
without any other settings or connections besides the
probe to the circuit. Push a button and you get a voltage
readout. It's unique in those features.

My 2467 has the counter timer option, which'll give you an on-screen
frequency readout if you know how to ask for it. You have to know how to
navigate the annoying on-screen menu, though. It also seems to me there
must be a bug with the OSD display intensity, as it always goes absurdly
bright when I enter that menu. I believe the 2445B/2465B/2467B scopes will
also do voltage measurement on request, though I don't own one of those.
It seems pretty handy to have a dedicated frequency/voltage display on the
front-panel.

Hey Siggi!

That was my point. I don't need or want to be a computer
programmer to see a measurement value. The 2236
does things right there and no settings need to be
changed. As I also mentioned, you need to set cursors,
at the beginning and end of the waveform to get the freq
measurement you want. So that's nice in some
applications, but real easy to mess up if you want to see
the mixed freq coming out of a stage. That cursor needs
to be DEAD on to give you your information. That is not
an issue with the 2236. AFAIK, TEK never built another
model scope configured the same way as a 2236.



On 23 Jan 2021 at 13:48, Siggi wrote:

On Sat, Jan 23, 2021 at 8:25 AM kim.herron@sbcglobal.net <
kim.herron@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

I had a 2445. As far as I was concerned, it was clumsy
for what I do. I service antique radios and comm gear.
You have to play games with the 2445 to get an actual
freq readout and that depends on cursor settings. The
2236 is the only scope, that I'm aware of, that has a
dedicated freq readout in 8 digits on the front panel
without any other settings or connections besides the
probe to the circuit. Push a button and you get a voltage
readout. It's unique in those features.

My 2467 has the counter timer option, which'll give you an
on-screen
frequency readout if you know how to ask for it. You have to know
how to
navigate the annoying on-screen menu, though. It also seems to me
there
must be a bug with the OSD display intensity, as it always goes
absurdly
bright when I enter that menu. I believe the 2445B/2465B/2467B
scopes will
also do voltage measurement on request, though I don't own one of
those.
It seems pretty handy to have a dedicated frequency/voltage display
on the
front-panel.

Kim Herron W8ZV
kim.herron@sbcglobal.net
1-616-677-3706

On Sat, Jan 23, 2021 at 2:12 PM kim.herron@sbcglobal.net <
kim.herron@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

That was my point. I don't need or want to be a computer
programmer to see a measurement value. The 2236
does things right there and no settings need to be
changed. As I also mentioned, you need to set cursors,
at the beginning and end of the waveform to get the freq
measurement you want.

Well, the CT option for the 2445/2465/2467+ gives you a proper counter.
This is in addition to cursor measurements that come with the basic scope.
The option also gives you other measurements, like precision time interval
measurements and so on. See option 06 on the TekWiki page:
https://w140.com/tekwiki/wiki/2465A.

Siggi,

Yes, if you skip ahead a few years you start getting the options on the 2445/2465 to do all kinds of neat things (multimeter, counter/timer, word recognizer, and TV features) but I was specifically looking at the release year for the 2236 and what it's immediate competition was.

That said, even the DMM option for the 2445/2465 wasn't quite up to what the had been built into the 2236: the 2236 can measure voltage either through the separate banana leads on the side of the case, or through channel 1. You can do that with the cursors on a 2445/2465, but that's not quite the same thing (to my mind it's not much better than reading the graticule manually).

The 2236 seems like the logical culmination of the DM44 equipped 400 series scopes, but then it seems like Tek just decided to take a different tack. I'm sure it made sense at the time, but I wonder what the rationale was.

-- Jeff Dutky

Jeff -
Consider too, the 2246/A and 2247A which add live monitoring for voltage and time functions in the technician level 4 channel scopes (100MHz).

Yes, if you skip ahead a few years you start getting the options on the 2445/2465 to do all kinds of neat things (multimeter, counter/timer, word recognizer, and TV features) but I was specifically looking at the release year for the 2236 and what it's immediate competition was.

That said, even the DMM option for the 2445/2465 wasn't quite up to what the had been built into the 2236: the 2236 can measure voltage either through the separate banana leads on the side of the case, or through channel 1. You can do that with the cursors on a 2445/2465, but that's not quite the same thing (to my mind it's not much better than reading the graticule manually).

The 2236 seems like the logical culmination of the DM44 equipped 400 series scopes, but then it seems like Tek just decided to take a different tack. I'm sure it made sense at the time, but I wonder what the rationale was. -- Jeff Dutky

benx618(g) wrote:

Consider too, the 2246/A and 2247A which add live monitoring for voltage and time functions in the technician level 4 channel scopes (100MHz).

So you're suggesting that the market window for the 2236 was also unusually short, as the scope was undercut, on both price and features, by the 2246 in '87, only three years after it first came to market, as well as having it's thunder stolen at release in '84 by the sexier, if more expensive, 2400 series?

That makes a lot of sense to me. What doesn't make sense is why Tek management allowed the 2236 to be manufactured when it didn't have an obvious position in the product line, and lacked a persuasive user story even on release. I suppose that there was a case to made for continuing production of the 2235 and 2236 on the basis that it used existing manufacturing resources (both scopes are basically 2215s with upgraded bandwidth, and a CTM board thrown on top for the 2236) and there was a sunk cost to finish amortizing, but the price premium on the 2236 seems to refute that interpretation.

-- Jeff Dutky

Don't forget the development time, and R&D experience. Marketing drives product development, and is a best guess at the time of project kick-off. Markets shift (and boy didn't they in the 80s!) and sometimes products don't match the market when they're ready to hit production. Many a story of a product team watching their efforts burned before them upon completion.
I worked on the 486SL, a SoC integrated 486, that won awards for productivity and yield. It was killed within a year of production release because is was competing for fab time with the 486DX2. Bet you remember the 486DX2, but not the 486SL. Not my only story of product development flops.
I'm sure not all was lost in the development of the 2236. The development experience I'm sure was used in later products. But it's also why I find it so weird that there are clear differences and also sharing within the 465 and 475 scopes. It's like they were separate teams using the same base design? I'm sure the org charts inside Tek were changing rapidly between 1970 and 1990.
Dave