Date   
Re: 11801 NVRAM

Reginald Beardsley
 

Those are *not* 11801 manuals. They are 11801C manuals. I currently have a PDF of the 11801 service manual courtesy of a member of the list and the 11801,11802 & SM11 diagnostics courtesy of TekWiki. I have paper copies of the 11801 user and service manuals in transit.


--------------------------------------------

On Sun, 3/24/19, bobh@... <bobh@...> wrote:

Subject: Re: [TekScopes] 11801 NVRAM
To: TekScopes@groups.io
Date: Sunday, March 24, 2019, 4:44 PM

Re: ROM images, did you check
here:

http://www.ko4bb.com/getsimple/index.php?id=manuals

Search ko4bb for 11801.

Bob.


On 3/24/2019 7:26 AM, Reginald
Beardsley via Groups.Io wrote:
> I was
able to select a DS1230Y NVRAM package on the TNM5000 and
read U500.  However, it only contained 32 bytes of data. 
Everything else was alternating 32 bytes of 00 and FF.
>
> I should note that
when I selected the NVRAM part, the TNM put up a warning to
select the device before inserting the device in the ZIF
which is the opposite of what I did.
>
> Does anyone have images of  U500 and U511
from a CSA803 or 11801 which has the factory cal data? 
We'd also need the 200 MHz OXCO measured using a GPSDO
referenced counter and the version of the timebase board
ROMS.  Mine are version 10.1 dated 1991.
>
> Does anyone of the
list know who designed the board?  It's dated 1988. 
It they are still alive we might get some help from them.
>
> Is there any
information on the recalibration process?
>
> This needs to be
documented before all of them fail. Twenty odd years ago
there was a detailed description of how to recover a Sun
workstation from a failed NVRAM.  So if you bought a used
system, one of the first things you did was record the
serial number, etc for future reference.
>
> Reg
>
>
>
>

Re: 11801 diagnostic help

 

Good point and that jogged a memory. Try pulling the ram chips out of the smartsocket and plugging them directly in. See if it will fully boot without the same error.

On 3/24/2019 2:47 PM, Albert Otten wrote:
Hi Reg,

You moved the correct jumpers (Fig. 1-1 in the Diagnostics manual). I suppose (just suppose) now that the Exxxx error is too severe. When the battery in the Dallas battery is low, the NVRAM memory chip should still work but lose its content after power off. The corresponding error is T1331. Probably the chip inside the Dallas unit does not function properly anymore, i.e. does not guide the mainframe 5V to the memory chip when mainframe power is present.

The scope should power up normally even without any plugins. Of course many function simply are not available then, but you can see things like instrument options and identification.

Albert


On Sun, Mar 24, 2019 at 04:48 PM, Reginald Beardsley wrote:

Albert Otten wrote:

Another possibility to have the instrument atleast doing something is to
bypass the Self test and
Extended Diagnostic tests by setting jumpers J712 and J713 on the I/O board to
the 0 position. These jumpers are difficult to reach with the board in situ, I
found it easier to remove the board and then change the jumper settings.

The only jumper labeled was J710, so I assumed the number went up went up from
there. J712 and J713 were set to the right, so I moved them to the left,
replaced the board and powered it up.

There was no change in behavior.

In reading the service manual for the 11801 it seemed to indicate that a
sampling head needed to be installed. I tried it with one of my SD-22s
installed, but that had no discernible effect.

Re: 11801 diagnostic help

Reginald Beardsley
 

It booted!!!!

It recognizes the two SD-22s, knows it is 24 March 2019 though the time is off by 2.5 hours. Two hours of which are Mountain time and the change in DST. It reports 43989 hours of on time and 2033 power ups of which I probably did the last few hundred.

Thank you Tom!

Reg

--------------------------------------------

On Sun, 3/24/19, Tom Miller <@tmiller> wrote:

Subject: Re: [TekScopes] 11801 diagnostic help
To: TekScopes@groups.io
Date: Sunday, March 24, 2019, 6:20 PM

Good point and that jogged a
memory. Try pulling the ram chips out of
the smartsocket and plugging them directly in.
See if it will fully boot
without the same
error.

Re: 11801 diagnostic help

Jack2015
 

Congrats!nice job.

After replacing the DS1213 with a new NVRAM in my CSA803 (I replaced one DS1213 only )
I rebooted it 3 times to get rid of the self test failure.

1st time:same err E5322
2nd time:Battery error,but can exit diagnostic and enter operational screen.
subsys --------------block------------area------------routine
Timebase -----TBC control------ Static RAM -----Battery
3rd time:passed self test.

Re: 11801 diagnostic help

Reginald Beardsley
 

I'd have had to wait for my ST replacement NVRAM without the assist from Tom Miller.

Wherever did you find a DS1213? Digikey and Mouser don't have them. I doubt that any of the ones on eBay have good batteries. But you can see the outline of the tiny lithium cells potted on the underside, so a bit of Dremel work would allow fitting a larger pair of cells in holders in the unused DIP footprints in the left front corner of the board.

The next issue is what data is stored in these? It's obviously not the RTC or anything else I can determine such as operating hours, serial number, etc.

The only downside is now I need an SD-24 and an SD-32 ;-)


--------------------------------------------

On Sun, 3/24/19, Jack2015 <tolkien@...> wrote:

Subject: Re: [TekScopes] 11801 diagnostic help
To: TekScopes@groups.io
Date: Sunday, March 24, 2019, 8:02 PM

Congrats!nice job.

After replacing the DS1213
with a new NVRAM in my CSA803 (I  replaced one DS1213 only
)
I rebooted it 3 times to get rid of the
self test failure.

1st
time:same err E5322
2nd time:Battery
error,but can exit diagnostic and enter operational
screen.
subsys
--------------block------------area------------routine
Timebase  -----TBC control------ Static RAM
-----Battery
3rd time:passed self test.

Repairability of SD-24, SD-30 & SD-32 sampling heads

Reginald Beardsley
 

Has anyone attempted to repair one? If so, what was the outcome? I'm familiar with the EPROM failure repair. I'm really asking about the input and output sections as they are ESD sensitive.

Are suitable parts available? I realize that there are no schematics or other information.

Have Fun!
Reg

Re: 11801 diagnostic help

Jack2015
 

Usually there are three parts in a NVRAM,
1.SRAM
2.DS1210(or DS121x?)
3. 3V battery

This means we can make NVRAM by ourself,
HM6116+DS1210+two 1.5V AAA batteries=DS1220Y(2Kx8 NVRAM)
one 256K SRAM+DS1210+ one 3V battery(or two 1.5V AA batteries as an temporary solution)=DS1230Y=M48Z35Y 32kx8 NVRAM,
couple years ago I made following NVRAM for tek 11A32,last week I replaced the HM6116 with a 256K SRAM
and used it in CSA803(for a M48Z35Y=DS1230Y).it works well.by using larger capacity battery the life of data
storage will be much much longer!

you can see the picture of NVRAM I made.
https://groups.io/g/HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment/topic/nvram_28_pin_encapsulated/30699861?p=,,,100,0,0,0::recentpostdate%2Fsticky,,,100,2,0,30699861

Re: 11801 NVRAM

bobh@joba.com
 

Yeah, I was referring to the ROM images not manuals.

Bob.

On 3/24/2019 4:18 PM, Reginald Beardsley via Groups.Io wrote:
Those are *not* 11801 manuals. They are 11801C manuals. I currently have a PDF of the 11801 service manual courtesy of a member of the list and the 11801,11802 & SM11 diagnostics courtesy of TekWiki. I have paper copies of the 11801 user and service manuals in transit.


--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 3/24/19, bobh@... <bobh@...> wrote:

Subject: Re: [TekScopes] 11801 NVRAM
To: TekScopes@groups.io
Date: Sunday, March 24, 2019, 4:44 PM
Re: ROM images, did you check
here:
http://www.ko4bb.com/getsimple/index.php?id=manuals
Search ko4bb for 11801.
Bob.
On 3/24/2019 7:26 AM, Reginald
Beardsley via Groups.Io wrote:
> I was
able to select a DS1230Y NVRAM package on the TNM5000 and
read U500.  However, it only contained 32 bytes of data.
Everything else was alternating 32 bytes of 00 and FF.
>
> I should note that
when I selected the NVRAM part, the TNM put up a warning to
select the device before inserting the device in the ZIF
which is the opposite of what I did.
>
> Does anyone have images of  U500 and U511
from a CSA803 or 11801 which has the factory cal data?
We'd also need the 200 MHz OXCO measured using a GPSDO
referenced counter and the version of the timebase board
ROMS.  Mine are version 10.1 dated 1991.
>
> Does anyone of the
list know who designed the board?  It's dated 1988.
It they are still alive we might get some help from them.
>
> Is there any
information on the recalibration process?
>
> This needs to be
documented before all of them fail. Twenty odd years ago
there was a detailed description of how to recover a Sun
workstation from a failed NVRAM.  So if you bought a used
system, one of the first things you did was record the
serial number, etc for future reference.
>
> Reg
>
>
>
>


Re: Switch won't latch - 7CT1N

Roy Thistle
 

On Wed, Mar 20, 2019 at 08:30 PM, Mike Dinolfo wrote:


Can you clarify what is "CRC
556"
Hi: CRC 5.56 aerosol. It a highly refined mineral oil, dissolved in naphtha, with liquified (due to the pressure in the can) petroleum gases, that act as the propellant. There is some supposed anti-corrosion woo in there too.
So... basically it's a sprayable oil, that because it is solvated( and so very thin) will flow into, and be drawn into tight places. When the solvent evaporates, the oil (which is thicker) remains. The spray is very flammable. Also, don't inhale it.

Re: 11801 diagnostic help

Albert Otten
 

Very nice Reg, and very clever of Tom (that is, I didn't think of it!).
There is nothing special in the PCB. The 11801 can't know that there is a Dallas construction plugged in except for loss of memory after power down. Now could you confirm that you saw that specific battery error code T1331? Must be so.
Albert

This seems to confirm my previous suggestion that

On Mon, Mar 25, 2019 at 12:55 AM, Reginald Beardsley wrote:


It booted!!!!

It recognizes the two SD-22s, knows it is 24 March 2019 though the time is off
by 2.5 hours. Two hours of which are Mountain time and the change in DST. It
reports 43989 hours of on time and 2033 power ups of which I probably did the
last few hundred.

Thank you Tom!

Reg

--------------------------------------------
On Sun, 3/24/19, Tom Miller <@tmiller> wrote:

Subject: Re: [TekScopes] 11801 diagnostic help
To: TekScopes@groups.io
Date: Sunday, March 24, 2019, 6:20 PM

Good point and that jogged a
memory. Try pulling the ram chips out of
the smartsocket and plugging them directly in.
See if it will fully boot
without the same
error.



Re: 11801 diagnostic help

Reginald Beardsley
 

Yes. After I reset the jumpers on the IO board to the default locations it stops with a T1331. I just verified it to make sure there was no transposition of digits.

So somehow it is able to tell that the DS1213s are gone. To generate the E5622 error it has to be able to query the battery status of the DS1213. I'd guess that the 5 V to the chip is sequenced and it does a read before enabling the 5 V. I'm sure the explanation is in the datasheet for the DS1213.

Reg
--------------------------------------------

On Mon, 3/25/19, Albert Otten <aodiversen@...> wrote:

Subject: Re: [TekScopes] 11801 diagnostic help
To: TekScopes@groups.io
Date: Monday, March 25, 2019, 4:32 AM

Very nice Reg, and very clever of
Tom (that is, I didn't think of it!).
There is nothing special in the PCB. The 11801
can't know that there is a Dallas construction plugged
in except for loss of memory after power down. Now could you
confirm that you saw that specific battery error code T1331?
Must be so.
Albert

This seems to confirm my previous suggestion
that

Re: 11801 NVRAM

Reginald Beardsley
 

Things are generally a bit disorganized in the archive. Once I have my replacement NVRAM I'll set about archiving all my ROMs. And writing up a description of the repair process. The only thing I found that was clearly relevant was the EPROMs in some of the sampling heads.

--------------------------------------------

On Mon, 3/25/19, bobh@... <bobh@...> wrote:

Subject: Re: [TekScopes] 11801 NVRAM
To: TekScopes@groups.io
Date: Monday, March 25, 2019, 1:03 AM

Yeah, I was referring to the ROM
images not manuals.

Bob.

Re: 11801 diagnostic help

Jack2015
 

If my memory doesn't fail me:
battery error code T1331:
the path for it is:
subsys--------------block------------area------------routine
Timebase -----TBC control------ Static RAM-----Battery

this means cpu communicates with NVRAM in two ways:
1.While Supplying 5V to SRAM.
2.Without supplying 5V to SRAM,check battery status.

I did checked the vcc pins of two SRAMs on DS1213 sockets after removing them from timebase board.
one is 3.05Vdc,another is 2.7 Vdc,the last one failed, 2.7V is just a little bit below the threshold I guess.

Re: Switch won't latch - 7CT1N

 

OK, thanks!

Mike Dinolfo

On 3/25/19 2:34 AM, Roy Thistle wrote:
On Wed, Mar 20, 2019 at 08:30 PM, Mike Dinolfo wrote:

Can you clarify what is "CRC
556"
Hi: CRC 5.56 aerosol. It a highly refined mineral oil, dissolved in naphtha, with liquified (due to the pressure in the can) petroleum gases, that act as the propellant. There is some supposed anti-corrosion woo in there too.
So... basically it's a sprayable oil, that because it is solvated( and so very thin) will flow into, and be drawn into tight places. When the solvent evaporates, the oil (which is thicker) remains. The spray is very flammable. Also, don't inhale it.


Re: 11801 diagnostic help

Szabolcs Szigeti
 

Hi,

I believe some of the Dallas NVRAM chips have features to query the battery
status. It works by accessing specific memory addresses in specific
sequence, so it works purely in software, needs no external circuitry. I've
come across once this when to my surprise a 2430a (?) scope reported low
battery, even though it had the nvram chip instead of separate battery.

Szabolcs





Reginald Beardsley via Groups.Io <pulaskite=yahoo.com@groups.io> ezt írta
(időpont: 2019. márc. 25., H, 12:35):

Yes. After I reset the jumpers on the IO board to the default locations it
stops with a T1331. I just verified it to make sure there was no
transposition of digits.

So somehow it is able to tell that the DS1213s are gone. To generate the
E5622 error it has to be able to query the battery status of the DS1213.
I'd guess that the 5 V to the chip is sequenced and it does a read before
enabling the 5 V. I'm sure the explanation is in the datasheet for the
DS1213.

Reg
--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 3/25/19, Albert Otten <aodiversen@...> wrote:

Subject: Re: [TekScopes] 11801 diagnostic help
To: TekScopes@groups.io
Date: Monday, March 25, 2019, 4:32 AM

Very nice Reg, and very clever of
Tom (that is, I didn't think of it!).
There is nothing special in the PCB. The 11801
can't know that there is a Dallas construction plugged
in except for loss of memory after power down. Now could you
confirm that you saw that specific battery error code T1331?
Must be so.
Albert

This seems to confirm my previous suggestion
that




"My Years at Tektronix 1946-1953" by Miles Tippery

Steve Goldstein
 

For sale is my copy of this book, purchased directly from the Tek Museum.
It's an interesting read, giving a lot of insight into what it takes to
start up a company, and Mr. Tippery is an excellent narrator. It reads a
lot like he's sitting in the room with you reminiscing on his time at Tek.

This copy is in like-new condition. I paid $30 for in inclusive of
shipping, yours for $25 shipped to your US door. Please contact me
off-list with your interest.

Thank you.

Steve

Re: 11801 diagnostic help

Reginald Beardsley
 

The data sheet for the D43256 gives a 2 V minimum data retention voltage. I suspect Tek set the error level higher to give the user a chance to replace the battery before they lost data.

The big question now is what data is stored there. If it's last use instrument settings it doesn't matter. If it's calibration data, then I've got to figure out how to calibrate it. Not an easy undertaking with an instrument that can resolve sub-nanometer differences in path length. In that realm connector torques matter.

It's a pretty mind boggling piece of kit. But making fixtures for testing FPGA DSP timing is well, "going to be interesting".

--------------------------------------------

On Mon, 3/25/19, Jack2015 <tolkien@...> wrote:

Subject: Re: [TekScopes] 11801 diagnostic help
To: TekScopes@groups.io
Date: Monday, March 25, 2019, 7:39 AM

If my memory doesn't fail
me:
battery error code T1331:
the path for it is:
subsys--------------block------------area------------routine
Timebase  -----TBC control------ Static
RAM-----Battery

this means
cpu communicates with NVRAM in two ways:
1.While Supplying 5V to SRAM.
2.Without supplying 5V to SRAM,check battery
status.

I did checked the
vcc pins of two SRAMs on DS1213 sockets after removing them
from timebase board.
one is 3.05Vdc,another
is 2.7 Vdc,the last one failed, 2.7V is just a little bit
below the threshold I guess.

Re: 11801 diagnostic help

Bob Koller
 

I have been following this thread with some interest, as I have a 11801A that had dead TB NVRAM, and a 11801B with all (still) good OEM NVRAM and batteries.
I don't think there are factory only cal constants stored in any NVRAM, here's why: The service manual for all these instruments describe how to diagnose and replace these batteries and NVRAM devices, without caveat about calibration after replacement.
Also, all these boards were FRU, or Field Replaceable Units, so that repair could be made via board swap.
I think all relevant calibrations take place from the menu items.

Re: Repairability of SD-24, SD-30 & SD-32 sampling heads

Bob Koller
 

These are thin film hybrid microcircuit assemblies. Easy enough to repair IF you have a well equipped hybrid lab and access to the right chips. Figuring out the correct parts, and then finding the die, could be a major problem, as hybrids are bit of thing of the past.
I was a hybrid microcircuit manufacturing engineer in a past life.

Re: Repairability of SD-24, SD-30 & SD-32 sampling heads

Reginald Beardsley
 

I rather feared that was the case. So "For parts" units are a significant gamble. I was very lucky that the two SD-22s I got for $150 delivered both turned out to be good. That seller mostly dealt in electrical power parts, boxes, breakers, etc.

And one never knows if the claim "untested" is true or not. It's very easy for someone to have two eBay accounts. One selling tested kit and the other selling "untested" which are actually known to be unrepairable and for which they have a "no returns" policy.

I have verified that the NVRAM does *not* store the last instrument settings and it does not store the RTC values. But what they store is still a mystery.

I'll summarize my adventures once I replace the NVRAM.

--------------------------------------------

On Mon, 3/25/19, Bob Koller via Groups.Io <testtech=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Subject: Re: [TekScopes] Repairability of SD-24, SD-30 & SD-32 sampling heads
To: TekScopes@groups.io
Date: Monday, March 25, 2019, 10:07 AM

These are thin film hybrid
microcircuit assemblies. Easy enough to repair IF you have a
well equipped hybrid lab and access to the right chips.
Figuring out the correct parts, and then finding the die,
could be a major problem, as hybrids are bit of thing of the
past.
I was a hybrid microcircuit
manufacturing engineer in a past life.