Date   
Re: Desoldering Iron, was Re: [TekScopes] 466-464 stray wire

Chuck Harris
 

I am puzzling over why you guys are so focused
on vacuum pumps. The pump is trivial.

What you really want to concentrate on is a vacuum
accumulator, and a quick acting solenoid valve.

Bring the vacuum accumulator up to the pump's maximum
vacuum and maintain it there. Open the solenoid valve
whenever you press the solder extractor's trigger.

The next part of the equation is to use the largest
diameter hoses that are consistent with the solenoid
valves flow rate.

-Chuck Harris

EricJ via Groups.Io wrote:

Hi Stefan,
In terms of performance, I think the Metcal will win. The Chinese station might reach a higher blocked vacuum level but that's not what we desire when desoldering. The flow never stops when I desolder. What you want is an instant on, high volume suction so that the liquid solder is instantly pulled right out of the joint without having time to cool and solidify due to air flow cooling it off. I would bet that the heating performance of the Metcal will also outdo the Chinese station.
It's pretty clear from watching the gauge that the Metcal snaps the needle right to its maximum vacuum, while the Chinese one lazily builds vacuum but to a bit higher final level. I'll take the Metcal - just didn't buy mine new, so my price was probably closer to the Chinese one. Good luck with whatever you decide.
P.S. you might want to put some sound absorbent materials on your walls and/or floor. Like rugs or rubber mat for the floor and even posters or pictures on the wall. It looks as though that room is mostly bare and sounds like you have a LOT of reflective surfaces in there which really amplifies any noise level. No wonder it seems very loud to you.
--Eric
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
-------- Original message --------From: stefan_trethan <stefan_trethan@...> Date: 9/7/18 9:32 AM (GMT-06:00) To: TekScopes@groups.io Subject: Re: Desoldering Iron, was Re: [TekScopes] 466-464 stray wire
I made a video showing the difference between the two desoldering stations:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ggDtwSi4CcJEzAP78

The Metcal does move a higher volume of air, 23 seconds to empty a
bag, compared to 30 seconds for the chinese station, but in terms of
blocked off pressure the chinese station is significantly better.

A rag and some foam rubber does cut down on the noise quite a bit, but
nowhere near the level of the chinese station.

Make up your own mind if you want to pay 10 times the money for this.
Thanks for your help.

ST


On Fri, Sep 7, 2018 at 9:07 AM EricJ via Groups.Io
<wyzkydd2358=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Well it's like the rest of us said, the noise doesn't bother us. I actually find it not bothersome at all. Additionally, I have used it a million times in the basement while the very young kids are sleeping in the room right above without waking them. It just isn't a problem to me. YMMV, and that's fine.
--Eric
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
-------- Original message --------From: stefan_trethan <stefan_trethan@...> Date: 9/7/18 12:27 AM (GMT-06:00) To: TekScopes@groups.io Subject: Re: Desoldering Iron, was Re: [TekScopes] 466-464 stray wire
I already have a bunch of OK working desoldering stations.
What I was looking for is spending well more than what my car is worth
to upgrade them to something better.
My wishlist was a bit more thermal power, and a bit better quality so
the tips and heaters don't wear out as much, that's not asking much if
you are willing to spend 10 times the money.
This does _not_ mean I'm willing to accept severe trade-offs in other
areas, especially since I compare them to units that cost well under
$100 originally.

I just don't care if the Metcal works well, with that level of noise I
simply don't even need to unpack the power unit because I can never
use it.
It is obvious not only for me but everyone else I showed it to that
this level of noise is not only unacceptable but completely
unnecessary for function.

I think when I am willing to spend whatever is asked I am not paying
just for materials, I am also paying for engineering and I am paying
for the Metcal engineer to spend five minutes of his valueable time to
consider the noise level in his design and take simple steps to
mitigate it. That venturi generators need silencers is not a novel
concept, every pneumatics manufacturer that offers them (e.g. SMC) has
equipped his generators with integral silencers or appropriate
threaded exit ports and offers suitable silencers, not just a freaking
hole in a casting for the air to fart out.

While I am certain I can modify the guns to produce only a reasonable
amount of noise I just don't see why I should do that. It's fine that
I have to finish a $100 chinese Hakko knockoff myself, I expect that,
but if I pay top dollar I expect a finished product. (The Metcal gun
is now also made in China btw).

You guys are like "Yea sure you are test driving this BMW and they
forgot to put on an exhaust muffler, but who gives a damn if it rips
your eardrums out, it goes FAST, so just get over it and wear
headphones". This is _not_ _an_ _option_ for me. I'm just glad I
insisted on a demo unit instead of buying this thing outright.

ST



On Fri, Sep 7, 2018 at 6:17 AM Pete Lancashire <xyzzypdx@...> wrote:

When I use my DS-1 yeah it's loud but it works it sucks solder out of
places very few others will such as my old boat anchors.

If the noise is excessive to you how about getting a little low-cost cheapy
like the hakko line powered one works pretty good on small stuff.

Think of it like having two soldering irons I metcal for the little stuff
and a big old hexacon for the old stuff

Or if it's too noisy wear headphones








Re: Desoldering Iron, was Re: [TekScopes] 466-464 stray wire

EricJ
 

Hi Chuck, 
These desoldering irons use a venturi and compressed air to generate vacuum. They are instantly on at full volume flow as soon as the trigger is pulled. I agree with you that the pump setups are not that great.
--Eric
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.

-------- Original message --------From: Chuck Harris <cfharris@...> Date: 9/7/18 10:51 AM (GMT-06:00) To: TekScopes@groups.io Subject: Re: Desoldering Iron, was Re: [TekScopes] 466-464 stray wire
I am puzzling over why you guys are so focused
on vacuum pumps.  The pump is trivial.

What you really want to concentrate on is a vacuum
accumulator, and a quick acting solenoid valve.

Bring the vacuum accumulator up to the pump's maximum
vacuum and maintain it there.  Open the solenoid valve
whenever you press the solder extractor's trigger.

The next part of the equation is to use the largest
diameter hoses that are consistent with the solenoid
valves flow rate.

-Chuck Harris

EricJ via Groups.Io wrote:
Hi Stefan,
In terms of performance, I think the Metcal will win. The Chinese station might reach a higher blocked vacuum level but that's not what we desire when desoldering. The flow never stops when I desolder. What you want is an instant on, high volume suction so that the liquid solder is instantly pulled right out of the joint without having time to cool and solidify due to air flow cooling it off. I would bet that the heating performance of the Metcal will also outdo the Chinese station.
It's pretty clear from watching the gauge that the Metcal snaps the needle right to its maximum vacuum, while the Chinese one lazily builds vacuum but to a bit higher final level. I'll take the Metcal - just didn't buy mine new, so my price was probably closer to the Chinese one. Good luck with whatever you decide.
P.S. you might want to put some sound absorbent materials on your walls and/or floor. Like rugs or rubber mat for the floor and even posters or pictures on the wall. It looks as though that room is mostly bare and sounds like you have a LOT of reflective surfaces in there which really amplifies any noise level. No wonder it seems very loud to you.
--Eric
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
-------- Original message --------From: stefan_trethan <stefan_trethan@...> Date: 9/7/18  9:32 AM  (GMT-06:00) To: TekScopes@groups.io Subject: Re: Desoldering Iron, was Re: [TekScopes] 466-464 stray wire
I made a video showing the difference between the two desoldering stations:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ggDtwSi4CcJEzAP78

The Metcal does move a higher volume of air, 23 seconds to empty a
bag, compared to 30 seconds for the chinese station, but in terms of
blocked off pressure the chinese station is significantly better.

A rag and some foam rubber does cut down on the noise quite a bit, but
nowhere near the level of the chinese station.

Make up your own mind if you want to pay 10 times the money for this.
Thanks for your help.

ST


On Fri, Sep 7, 2018 at 9:07 AM EricJ via Groups.Io
<wyzkydd2358=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Well it's like the rest of us said, the noise doesn't bother us. I actually find it not bothersome at all. Additionally, I have used it a million times in the basement while the very young kids are sleeping in the room right above without waking them. It just isn't a problem to me. YMMV, and that's fine.
--Eric
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
-------- Original message --------From: stefan_trethan <stefan_trethan@...> Date: 9/7/18  12:27 AM  (GMT-06:00) To: TekScopes@groups.io Subject: Re: Desoldering Iron, was Re: [TekScopes] 466-464 stray wire
I already have a bunch of OK working desoldering stations.
What I was looking for is spending well more than what my car is worth
to upgrade them to something better.
My wishlist was a bit more thermal power, and a bit better quality so
the tips and heaters don't wear out as much, that's not asking much if
you are willing to spend 10 times the money.
This does _not_ mean I'm willing to accept severe trade-offs in other
areas, especially since I compare them to units that cost well under
$100 originally.

I just don't care if the Metcal works well, with that level of noise I
simply don't even need to unpack the power unit because I can never
use it.
It is obvious not only for me but everyone else I showed it to that
this level of noise is not only unacceptable but completely
unnecessary for function.

I think when I am willing to spend whatever is asked I am not paying
just for materials, I am also paying for engineering and I am paying
for the Metcal engineer to spend five minutes of his valueable time to
consider the noise level in his design and take simple steps to
mitigate it. That venturi generators need silencers is not a novel
concept, every pneumatics manufacturer that offers them (e.g. SMC) has
equipped his generators with integral silencers or appropriate
threaded exit ports and offers suitable silencers, not just a freaking
hole in a casting for the air to fart out.

While I am certain I can modify the guns to produce only a reasonable
amount of noise I just don't see why I should do that. It's fine that
I have to finish a $100 chinese Hakko knockoff myself, I expect that,
but if I pay top dollar I expect a finished product. (The Metcal gun
is now also made in China btw).

You guys are like "Yea sure you are test driving this BMW and they
forgot to put on an exhaust muffler, but who gives a damn if it rips
your eardrums out, it goes FAST, so just get over it and wear
headphones". This is _not_ _an_ _option_ for me. I'm just glad I
insisted on a demo unit instead of buying this thing outright.

ST



On Fri, Sep 7, 2018 at 6:17 AM Pete Lancashire <xyzzypdx@...> wrote:

When I use my DS-1 yeah it's loud but it works it sucks solder out of
places very few others will such as my old boat anchors.

If the noise is excessive to you how about getting a little low-cost cheapy
like the hakko line powered one works pretty good on small stuff.

Think of it like having two soldering irons I metcal for the little stuff
and a big old hexacon for the old stuff

Or if it's too noisy wear headphones








Re: Desoldering Iron, was Re: [TekScopes] 466-464 stray wire

EricJ
 

Hi Stefan,
It sounds like you need the next higher temp tip for the Metcal. I'm surprised they didn't send you a variety with your demo unit. There are several sizes, shapes and heat levels available. I know you already know this, but you did apply some solder to the tip to help with heat transfer before attempting to desolder the demanding transformer joint, right? If the power indicator is telling you it's not using much power you can't be getting much heat transfer. I always add solder to the tip on the tough joints.
I think I would prioritize that dampening at least for the walls - sounds like you are in an echo chamber! 
: )
--Eric
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.

-------- Original message --------From: stefan_trethan <stefan_trethan@...> Date: 9/7/18 10:14 AM (GMT-06:00) To: TekScopes@groups.io Subject: Re: Desoldering Iron, was Re: [TekScopes] 466-464 stray wire
I tried some desoldering (did unpack the power station after all ;-) )
and frankly I could see no improvement on the tricky transformer power
plane connections that were giving me trouble. If anything the chinese
one did remove the solder slightly better. Of course the Metcal feels
much more solid, no doubt about that.

The heating power of the Metcal might be there (it heats up faster,
since it has a lot less thermal mass), but I think the bottleneck is
the tip-pad connection and the fairly narrow tube that forms the tip.
The power display on the Metcal did not tick up more than one or at
most two percent when I touched it to that plane, indicating that the
heater did not even see the demand. The thermal design on the chinese
one also sucks, but at least there I can nudge up the temperature to
compensate.

As for the room, it's a large space about 24m by 18m and 2+ stories
high with arched concrete ceilings. A few posters are not going to cut
it ;-). I will put in a nice thick shagpile carpet for next year's
budget, but I fear the request will be declined in view of the ESD
floor...

ST


On Fri, Sep 7, 2018 at 4:50 PM EricJ via Groups.Io
<wyzkydd2358=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Hi Stefan,
In terms of performance, I think the Metcal will win. The Chinese station might reach a higher blocked vacuum level but that's not what we desire when desoldering. The flow never stops when I desolder. What you want is an instant on, high volume suction so that the liquid solder is instantly pulled right out of the joint without having time to cool and solidify due to air flow cooling it off. I would bet that the heating performance of the Metcal will also outdo the Chinese station.
It's pretty clear from watching the gauge that the Metcal snaps the needle right to its maximum vacuum, while the Chinese one lazily builds vacuum but to a bit higher final level. I'll take the Metcal - just didn't buy mine new, so my price was probably closer to the Chinese one. Good luck with whatever you decide.
P.S. you might want to put some sound absorbent materials on your walls and/or floor. Like rugs or rubber mat for the floor and even posters or pictures on the wall. It looks as though that room is mostly bare and sounds like you have a LOT of reflective surfaces in there which really amplifies any noise level. No wonder it seems very loud to you.
--Eric
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
-------- Original message --------From: stefan_trethan <stefan_trethan@...> Date: 9/7/18  9:32 AM  (GMT-06:00) To: TekScopes@groups.io Subject: Re: Desoldering Iron, was Re: [TekScopes] 466-464 stray wire
I made a video showing the difference between the two desoldering stations:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ggDtwSi4CcJEzAP78

The Metcal does move a higher volume of air, 23 seconds to empty a
bag, compared to 30 seconds for the chinese station, but in terms of
blocked off pressure the chinese station is significantly better.

A rag and some foam rubber does cut down on the noise quite a bit, but
nowhere near the level of the chinese station.

Make up your own mind if you want to pay 10 times the money for this.
Thanks for your help.

ST


On Fri, Sep 7, 2018 at 9:07 AM EricJ via Groups.Io
<wyzkydd2358=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Well it's like the rest of us said, the noise doesn't bother us. I actually find it not bothersome at all. Additionally, I have used it a million times in the basement while the very young kids are sleeping in the room right above without waking them. It just isn't a problem to me. YMMV, and that's fine.
--Eric
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
-------- Original message --------From: stefan_trethan <stefan_trethan@...> Date: 9/7/18  12:27 AM  (GMT-06:00) To: TekScopes@groups.io Subject: Re: Desoldering Iron, was Re: [TekScopes] 466-464 stray wire
I already have a bunch of OK working desoldering stations.
What I was looking for is spending well more than what my car is worth
to upgrade them to something better.
My wishlist was a bit more thermal power, and a bit better quality so
the tips and heaters don't wear out as much, that's not asking much if
you are willing to spend 10 times the money.
This does _not_ mean I'm willing to accept severe trade-offs in other
areas, especially since I compare them to units that cost well under
$100 originally.

I just don't care if the Metcal works well, with that level of noise I
simply don't even need to unpack the power unit because I can never
use it.
It is obvious not only for me but everyone else I showed it to that
this level of noise is not only unacceptable but completely
unnecessary for function.

I think when I am willing to spend whatever is asked I am not paying
just for materials, I am also paying for engineering and I am paying
for the Metcal engineer to spend five minutes of his valueable time to
consider the noise level in his design and take simple steps to
mitigate it. That venturi generators need silencers is not a novel
concept, every pneumatics manufacturer that offers them (e.g. SMC) has
equipped his generators with integral silencers or appropriate
threaded exit ports and offers suitable silencers, not just a freaking
hole in a casting for the air to fart out.

While I am certain I can modify the guns to produce only a reasonable
amount of noise I just don't see why I should do that. It's fine that
I have to finish a $100 chinese Hakko knockoff myself, I expect that,
but if I pay top dollar I expect a finished product. (The Metcal gun
is now also made in China btw).

You guys are like "Yea sure you are test driving this BMW and they
forgot to put on an exhaust muffler, but who gives a damn if it rips
your eardrums out, it goes FAST, so just get over it and wear
headphones". This is _not_ _an_ _option_ for me. I'm just glad I
insisted on a demo unit instead of buying this thing outright.

ST



On Fri, Sep 7, 2018 at 6:17 AM Pete Lancashire <xyzzypdx@...> wrote:

When I use my DS-1 yeah it's loud but it works it sucks solder out of
places very few others will such as my old boat anchors.

If the noise is excessive to you how about getting a little low-cost cheapy
like the hakko line powered one works pretty good on small stuff.

Think of it like having two soldering irons I metcal for the little stuff
and a big old hexacon for the old stuff

Or if it's too noisy wear headphones








Re: Desoldering Iron, was Re: [TekScopes] 466-464 stray wire

stefan_trethan
 

Yea that's another way.
The pump isn't really the problem, it works fine on the chinese station,
just in the Metcal they forgot the muffler.

The guys who construct the automated production machines were also
astonished by the noise, saying they put silencers on every exhaust port.

I don't think the Metcal compressed air valve will work for vacuum. Sure
you could fit a microswitch instead but then you are back to fixing a new
$1k piece of kit...

ST

On Fri, 7 Sep 2018, 17:51 Chuck Harris, <cfharris@...> wrote:

I am puzzling over why you guys are so focused
on vacuum pumps. The pump is trivial.

What you really want to concentrate on is a vacuum
accumulator, and a quick acting solenoid valve.

Bring the vacuum accumulator up to the pump's maximum
vacuum and maintain it there. Open the solenoid valve
whenever you press the solder extractor's trigger.

The next part of the equation is to use the largest
diameter hoses that are consistent with the solenoid
valves flow rate.

-Chuck Harris

EricJ via Groups.Io wrote:
Hi Stefan,
In terms of performance, I think the Metcal will win. The Chinese
station might reach a higher blocked vacuum level but that's not what we
desire when desoldering. The flow never stops when I desolder. What you
want is an instant on, high volume suction so that the liquid solder is
instantly pulled right out of the joint without having time to cool and
solidify due to air flow cooling it off. I would bet that the heating
performance of the Metcal will also outdo the Chinese station.
It's pretty clear from watching the gauge that the Metcal snaps the
needle right to its maximum vacuum, while the Chinese one lazily builds
vacuum but to a bit higher final level. I'll take the Metcal - just didn't
buy mine new, so my price was probably closer to the Chinese one. Good luck
with whatever you decide.
P.S. you might want to put some sound absorbent materials on your walls
and/or floor. Like rugs or rubber mat for the floor and even posters or
pictures on the wall. It looks as though that room is mostly bare and
sounds like you have a LOT of reflective surfaces in there which really
amplifies any noise level. No wonder it seems very loud to you.
--Eric
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
-------- Original message --------From: stefan_trethan <
stefan_trethan@...> Date: 9/7/18 9:32 AM (GMT-06:00) To:
TekScopes@groups.io Subject: Re: Desoldering Iron, was Re: [TekScopes]
466-464 stray wire
I made a video showing the difference between the two desoldering
stations:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ggDtwSi4CcJEzAP78

The Metcal does move a higher volume of air, 23 seconds to empty a
bag, compared to 30 seconds for the chinese station, but in terms of
blocked off pressure the chinese station is significantly better.

A rag and some foam rubber does cut down on the noise quite a bit, but
nowhere near the level of the chinese station.

Make up your own mind if you want to pay 10 times the money for this.
Thanks for your help.

ST


On Fri, Sep 7, 2018 at 9:07 AM EricJ via Groups.Io
<wyzkydd2358=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Well it's like the rest of us said, the noise doesn't bother us. I
actually find it not bothersome at all. Additionally, I have used it a
million times in the basement while the very young kids are sleeping in the
room right above without waking them. It just isn't a problem to me. YMMV,
and that's fine.
--Eric
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
-------- Original message --------From: stefan_trethan <
stefan_trethan@...> Date: 9/7/18 12:27 AM (GMT-06:00) To:
TekScopes@groups.io Subject: Re: Desoldering Iron, was Re: [TekScopes]
466-464 stray wire
I already have a bunch of OK working desoldering stations.
What I was looking for is spending well more than what my car is worth
to upgrade them to something better.
My wishlist was a bit more thermal power, and a bit better quality so
the tips and heaters don't wear out as much, that's not asking much if
you are willing to spend 10 times the money.
This does _not_ mean I'm willing to accept severe trade-offs in other
areas, especially since I compare them to units that cost well under
$100 originally.

I just don't care if the Metcal works well, with that level of noise I
simply don't even need to unpack the power unit because I can never
use it.
It is obvious not only for me but everyone else I showed it to that
this level of noise is not only unacceptable but completely
unnecessary for function.

I think when I am willing to spend whatever is asked I am not paying
just for materials, I am also paying for engineering and I am paying
for the Metcal engineer to spend five minutes of his valueable time to
consider the noise level in his design and take simple steps to
mitigate it. That venturi generators need silencers is not a novel
concept, every pneumatics manufacturer that offers them (e.g. SMC) has
equipped his generators with integral silencers or appropriate
threaded exit ports and offers suitable silencers, not just a freaking
hole in a casting for the air to fart out.

While I am certain I can modify the guns to produce only a reasonable
amount of noise I just don't see why I should do that. It's fine that
I have to finish a $100 chinese Hakko knockoff myself, I expect that,
but if I pay top dollar I expect a finished product. (The Metcal gun
is now also made in China btw).

You guys are like "Yea sure you are test driving this BMW and they
forgot to put on an exhaust muffler, but who gives a damn if it rips
your eardrums out, it goes FAST, so just get over it and wear
headphones". This is _not_ _an_ _option_ for me. I'm just glad I
insisted on a demo unit instead of buying this thing outright.

ST



On Fri, Sep 7, 2018 at 6:17 AM Pete Lancashire <xyzzypdx@...>
wrote:

When I use my DS-1 yeah it's loud but it works it sucks solder out of
places very few others will such as my old boat anchors.

If the noise is excessive to you how about getting a little low-cost
cheapy
like the hakko line powered one works pretty good on small stuff.

Think of it like having two soldering irons I metcal for the little
stuff
and a big old hexacon for the old stuff

Or if it's too noisy wear headphones










Strange Probe ...

Mike Harmon
 

I have a very strange scope probe that I can't find any documentation for.

tt's a P6033 probe, the old style with the gray barrel and the threads for attaching the witch hat. The cable has a GR-874 connector for connection to the scope.
Information printed on the barrel is as follows: P6033, Trigger Probe, 010-099, 10X, 1.2 k ohm, 2pf. I have exhausted my resources looking for information on
this probe (old catalogs, Google searches, etc.). Everything I've seen skips right over the P6033. Now, I'm REALLY determined to find out what I have!

Can someone tell me what this thing is? What was it used for? What scope (or plugin) was it designed to be used with?

I don't really need it for anything. I was thinking, since I have several pieces of GR equipment, maybe I could re-purpose it into something I could use.

Please let me know if you can enlighten me on this thing!
Thanks!
Mike Harmon, WB0LDJ
mharmon at att dot net

1502/3 YT Recorder Drive Belt

Adrian
 

I needed a couple of 214-1709-00 toothed belts to replace mine which seemed to have reverted to whatever liquid petrochemical they were originally made from.

As these were only available from the USA so far as I could see, and there was an MOQ I have some spares. If anyone on the UK side of the Atlantic wants one at cost + postage, just ask.

Adrian

Re: Desoldering Iron, was Re: [TekScopes] 466-464 stray wire

Jim Ford
 

Hey, you guys are pretty far OT.  Please take it to private emails.
Thanks.


Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

-------- Original message --------From: "EricJ via Groups.Io" <wyzkydd2358=yahoo.com@groups.io> Date: 9/7/18 9:08 AM (GMT-08:00) To: TekScopes@groups.io Subject: Re: Desoldering Iron, was Re: [TekScopes] 466-464 stray wire
Hi Stefan,
It sounds like you need the next higher temp tip for the Metcal. I'm surprised they didn't send you a variety with your demo unit. There are several sizes, shapes and heat levels available. I know you already know this, but you did apply some solder to the tip to help with heat transfer before attempting to desolder the demanding transformer joint, right? If the power indicator is telling you it's not using much power you can't be getting much heat transfer. I always add solder to the tip on the tough joints.
I think I would prioritize that dampening at least for the walls - sounds like you are in an echo chamber! 
: )
--Eric
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
-------- Original message --------From: stefan_trethan <stefan_trethan@...> Date: 9/7/18  10:14 AM  (GMT-06:00) To: TekScopes@groups.io Subject: Re: Desoldering Iron, was Re: [TekScopes] 466-464 stray wire
I tried some desoldering (did unpack the power station after all ;-) )
and frankly I could see no improvement on the tricky transformer power
plane connections that were giving me trouble. If anything the chinese
one did remove the solder slightly better. Of course the Metcal feels
much more solid, no doubt about that.

The heating power of the Metcal might be there (it heats up faster,
since it has a lot less thermal mass), but I think the bottleneck is
the tip-pad connection and the fairly narrow tube that forms the tip.
The power display on the Metcal did not tick up more than one or at
most two percent when I touched it to that plane, indicating that the
heater did not even see the demand. The thermal design on the chinese
one also sucks, but at least there I can nudge up the temperature to
compensate.

As for the room, it's a large space about 24m by 18m and 2+ stories
high with arched concrete ceilings. A few posters are not going to cut
it ;-). I will put in a nice thick shagpile carpet for next year's
budget, but I fear the request will be declined in view of the ESD
floor...

ST


On Fri, Sep 7, 2018 at 4:50 PM EricJ via Groups.Io
<wyzkydd2358=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Hi Stefan,
In terms of performance, I think the Metcal will win. The Chinese station might reach a higher blocked vacuum level but that's not what we desire when desoldering. The flow never stops when I desolder. What you want is an instant on, high volume suction so that the liquid solder is instantly pulled right out of the joint without having time to cool and solidify due to air flow cooling it off. I would bet that the heating performance of the Metcal will also outdo the Chinese station.
It's pretty clear from watching the gauge that the Metcal snaps the needle right to its maximum vacuum, while the Chinese one lazily builds vacuum but to a bit higher final level. I'll take the Metcal - just didn't buy mine new, so my price was probably closer to the Chinese one. Good luck with whatever you decide.
P.S. you might want to put some sound absorbent materials on your walls and/or floor. Like rugs or rubber mat for the floor and even posters or pictures on the wall. It looks as though that room is mostly bare and sounds like you have a LOT of reflective surfaces in there which really amplifies any noise level. No wonder it seems very loud to you.
--Eric
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
-------- Original message --------From: stefan_trethan <stefan_trethan@...> Date: 9/7/18  9:32 AM  (GMT-06:00) To: TekScopes@groups.io Subject: Re: Desoldering Iron, was Re: [TekScopes] 466-464 stray wire
I made a video showing the difference between the two desoldering stations:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ggDtwSi4CcJEzAP78

The Metcal does move a higher volume of air, 23 seconds to empty a
bag, compared to 30 seconds for the chinese station, but in terms of
blocked off pressure the chinese station is significantly better.

A rag and some foam rubber does cut down on the noise quite a bit, but
nowhere near the level of the chinese station.

Make up your own mind if you want to pay 10 times the money for this.
Thanks for your help.

ST


On Fri, Sep 7, 2018 at 9:07 AM EricJ via Groups.Io
<wyzkydd2358=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Well it's like the rest of us said, the noise doesn't bother us. I actually find it not bothersome at all. Additionally, I have used it a million times in the basement while the very young kids are sleeping in the room right above without waking them. It just isn't a problem to me. YMMV, and that's fine.
--Eric
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
-------- Original message --------From: stefan_trethan <stefan_trethan@...> Date: 9/7/18  12:27 AM  (GMT-06:00) To: TekScopes@groups.io Subject: Re: Desoldering Iron, was Re: [TekScopes] 466-464 stray wire
I already have a bunch of OK working desoldering stations.
What I was looking for is spending well more than what my car is worth
to upgrade them to something better.
My wishlist was a bit more thermal power, and a bit better quality so
the tips and heaters don't wear out as much, that's not asking much if
you are willing to spend 10 times the money.
This does _not_ mean I'm willing to accept severe trade-offs in other
areas, especially since I compare them to units that cost well under
$100 originally.

I just don't care if the Metcal works well, with that level of noise I
simply don't even need to unpack the power unit because I can never
use it.
It is obvious not only for me but everyone else I showed it to that
this level of noise is not only unacceptable but completely
unnecessary for function.

I think when I am willing to spend whatever is asked I am not paying
just for materials, I am also paying for engineering and I am paying
for the Metcal engineer to spend five minutes of his valueable time to
consider the noise level in his design and take simple steps to
mitigate it. That venturi generators need silencers is not a novel
concept, every pneumatics manufacturer that offers them (e.g. SMC) has
equipped his generators with integral silencers or appropriate
threaded exit ports and offers suitable silencers, not just a freaking
hole in a casting for the air to fart out.

While I am certain I can modify the guns to produce only a reasonable
amount of noise I just don't see why I should do that. It's fine that
I have to finish a $100 chinese Hakko knockoff myself, I expect that,
but if I pay top dollar I expect a finished product. (The Metcal gun
is now also made in China btw).

You guys are like "Yea sure you are test driving this BMW and they
forgot to put on an exhaust muffler, but who gives a damn if it rips
your eardrums out, it goes FAST, so just get over it and wear
headphones". This is _not_ _an_ _option_ for me. I'm just glad I
insisted on a demo unit instead of buying this thing outright.

ST



On Fri, Sep 7, 2018 at 6:17 AM Pete Lancashire <xyzzypdx@...> wrote:

When I use my DS-1 yeah it's loud but it works it sucks solder out of
places very few others will such as my old boat anchors.

If the noise is excessive to you how about getting a little low-cost cheapy
like the hakko line powered one works pretty good on small stuff.

Think of it like having two soldering irons I metcal for the little stuff
and a big old hexacon for the old stuff

Or if it's too noisy wear headphones








Re: Desoldering Iron, was Re: [TekScopes] 466-464 stray wire

Chuck Harris
 

Eric,

The venturi systems I have seen, have the venturi pump in
the base station, and suck through a 1/4 inch hose that
goes from the base station to the handset. The venturi
may have very little mass, and produce vacuum fairly
quickly, but it still has to suck air through the narrow
plastic hose that goes to the handset.

A diddly little vacuum pump, with a pressure regulator,
sucking on a vacuum receiver, and a solenoid valve in the
handset is simpler, lighter, and provides a much more
instantaneous vacuum, at the desoldering tip, than the
venturi systems I have seen.

-Chuck Harris

EricJ via Groups.Io wrote:

Hi Chuck,
These desoldering irons use a venturi and compressed air to generate vacuum. They are instantly on at full volume flow as soon as the trigger is pulled. I agree with you that the pump setups are not that great.
--Eric

Re: 7K series - Conceptual question - What's the 3rd most useful plugin

Fabio Trevisan
 

Heyu guys,
Wow! I didn't expect **that much** emotional response in just two days.
I won`t be able to properly answer to all the suggestions, quoting every of your remarks, so I`ll make an overall wrapup of what grasped more my attention.
7A22: I knew of this one before I even have an 7k scope, so it was on my list already. But it doesn't come by often (I only see once on ebay in the last few months and IIRC it was selling for something like 170 bucks).

7A13: The number of you guys who mentioned it surprised me! I never gave any serious thought to it, maybe because of its name... Comparator.
I never thought that it could be used as a normal vertical amplifier with its fancy offset features et all.
I thought it worked more like a... go figure, comparator! (i.e. like in OpAmps vs Comparators) and that it would display a kind of digital output of the signal, a "zero" for anything below a threshold and a "one" for anything above... where you could set the threshold as an internal voltage or use the differential input.
Now that I know it works like an amplifier, it's a whole different issue!
Given the number of times it was mentioned, and given that there's one RIGHT NOW, at offer on a local auction site in Brazil (Mercadolivre), I think it will definitely become my next plugin (the one at offer is pf the digital kind so, no worries about the rotary DC offset encoder).

7A12: It was mentioned once, and I never given too much thought about it... it always seemed to me just as a "different" approach to the settings, with push buttons instead of the rotary and lever switches...
But the comment from John grabbed my attention that, it has one nice feature that the other mainstream dual preamps doesn't have... it has a variable dual DC offset voltage that gives it the ability to "cancel out" the DC offsets of signals being measured without sacrificing the DC response.
Sort of like the 7A13 and the 7A22, but maybe not so powerful and/or precise exact DC offset or improved CMRR on those particalr two plugins... but... with a big advantage though... it's a dual channel, with dual DC offset cancellation, that still can be used like a differential (granted... I know the CMRR is not great).
It seriuosly grabbed my attention and - at least - I won't dismiss it right away if I ever see an offer (they don't seem to come by often too).

7A42: This one was mentioned once as well and it never catched my eyes either but, after your comment I do see some value in it...
For instance, it would have been perfect to troubleshoot the defect of the TG501 that Kerry brought up to the group recently...(https://groups.io/g/TekScopes/message/150488).
For small ECL glue logic it looks really handy.
Still, I don't think it would rank as the immediate choice for a 3rd plugin (as my original proposal)... I would be more like a "good to have" to anyone who already have the essentials covered.

7D12: I think it was mentioned once and I had already given thoughts to it... With either an M1, M2 or M3 modules, it really has a multitude of uses... But it's broken down into 3 different - additional - modules... and I think it would be, Like Lop Pol said:'Crap! one more plugin to my wish list!"... but not my immediate 3rd one.

7D14, 7D15: I think I would rather go with the latter... for its ability to do on screen delta time measurements (which kinda replace what the DM44 could do), although I admit that, on my 3 bay 7623A, it would mean an annoying cable permanently routed from the back to the front of the scope.

7D20: That one also catched my eyes a couple of times... But specially because I have an storage 7K MF, it falls down on my wishlist rank...
Besides, it's an expensive gig and never seen one at offer.

7LXXs: I`m not much into RF so, the only SA that I ever considered was the 7L5, mostly for audio measurements.
Still, I don't know if the dynamic range of the 7L5 qualifies for really low distortion measurements (< 0.01%). Have any of you used it for this purpose? How does it do in that area?

7CT1(N): This one has always been on my watch as well, but firstly, they're EXPENSIVE! and secondly... From all plugins, I think this is one that I could manage to make one DIY... Because it's essentially LF, and because a microcontroller + soft buttons / rotary encoders + relays can make up quite nicely for the - unobtainable to the DIYers - multi position / multi contact / coaxial selectors.
Not that I ever designed one... but I think it would not be that difficult to do... and could be done on a "evolving" aproach... strating from something simple and adding more and more functionality.
Thank you for the links to the DIY blogs... it inspired me and I may very well pursue that

Thanks a lot for all of your inputs.
I`m happy that it triggered interesting discussions among you all and I`ll keep reading.

Rgrds,

Fabio

Re: Desoldering Iron, was Re: [TekScopes] 466-464 stray wire

EricJ
 

The topic title was changed to desoldering irons, not sure how that is OT when we are taking about desoldering irons. And that is a topic directly related to fixing even Tek scopes so....
-Eric
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.

-------- Original message --------From: Jim Ford <james.ford@...> Date: 9/7/18 11:26 AM (GMT-06:00) To: TekScopes@groups.io Subject: Re: Desoldering Iron, was Re: [TekScopes] 466-464 stray wire
Hey, you guys are pretty far OT.  Please take it to private emails.
Thanks.


Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
-------- Original message --------From: "EricJ via Groups.Io" <wyzkydd2358=yahoo.com@groups.io> Date: 9/7/18  9:08 AM  (GMT-08:00) To: TekScopes@groups.io Subject: Re: Desoldering Iron, was Re: [TekScopes] 466-464 stray wire
Hi Stefan,
It sounds like you need the next higher temp tip for the Metcal. I'm surprised they didn't send you a variety with your demo unit. There are several sizes, shapes and heat levels available. I know you already know this, but you did apply some solder to the tip to help with heat transfer before attempting to desolder the demanding transformer joint, right? If the power indicator is telling you it's not using much power you can't be getting much heat transfer. I always add solder to the tip on the tough joints.
I think I would prioritize that dampening at least for the walls - sounds like you are in an echo chamber! 
: )
--Eric
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
-------- Original message --------From: stefan_trethan <stefan_trethan@...> Date: 9/7/18  10:14 AM  (GMT-06:00) To: TekScopes@groups.io Subject: Re: Desoldering Iron, was Re: [TekScopes] 466-464 stray wire
I tried some desoldering (did unpack the power station after all ;-) )
and frankly I could see no improvement on the tricky transformer power
plane connections that were giving me trouble. If anything the chinese
one did remove the solder slightly better. Of course the Metcal feels
much more solid, no doubt about that.

The heating power of the Metcal might be there (it heats up faster,
since it has a lot less thermal mass), but I think the bottleneck is
the tip-pad connection and the fairly narrow tube that forms the tip.
The power display on the Metcal did not tick up more than one or at
most two percent when I touched it to that plane, indicating that the
heater did not even see the demand. The thermal design on the chinese
one also sucks, but at least there I can nudge up the temperature to
compensate.

As for the room, it's a large space about 24m by 18m and 2+ stories
high with arched concrete ceilings. A few posters are not going to cut
it ;-). I will put in a nice thick shagpile carpet for next year's
budget, but I fear the request will be declined in view of the ESD
floor...

ST


On Fri, Sep 7, 2018 at 4:50 PM EricJ via Groups.Io
<wyzkydd2358=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Hi Stefan,
In terms of performance, I think the Metcal will win. The Chinese station might reach a higher blocked vacuum level but that's not what we desire when desoldering. The flow never stops when I desolder. What you want is an instant on, high volume suction so that the liquid solder is instantly pulled right out of the joint without having time to cool and solidify due to air flow cooling it off. I would bet that the heating performance of the Metcal will also outdo the Chinese station.
It's pretty clear from watching the gauge that the Metcal snaps the needle right to its maximum vacuum, while the Chinese one lazily builds vacuum but to a bit higher final level. I'll take the Metcal - just didn't buy mine new, so my price was probably closer to the Chinese one. Good luck with whatever you decide.
P.S. you might want to put some sound absorbent materials on your walls and/or floor. Like rugs or rubber mat for the floor and even posters or pictures on the wall. It looks as though that room is mostly bare and sounds like you have a LOT of reflective surfaces in there which really amplifies any noise level. No wonder it seems very loud to you.
--Eric
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
-------- Original message --------From: stefan_trethan <stefan_trethan@...> Date: 9/7/18  9:32 AM  (GMT-06:00) To: TekScopes@groups.io Subject: Re: Desoldering Iron, was Re: [TekScopes] 466-464 stray wire
I made a video showing the difference between the two desoldering stations:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ggDtwSi4CcJEzAP78

The Metcal does move a higher volume of air, 23 seconds to empty a
bag, compared to 30 seconds for the chinese station, but in terms of
blocked off pressure the chinese station is significantly better.

A rag and some foam rubber does cut down on the noise quite a bit, but
nowhere near the level of the chinese station.

Make up your own mind if you want to pay 10 times the money for this.
Thanks for your help.

ST


On Fri, Sep 7, 2018 at 9:07 AM EricJ via Groups.Io
<wyzkydd2358=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Well it's like the rest of us said, the noise doesn't bother us. I actually find it not bothersome at all. Additionally, I have used it a million times in the basement while the very young kids are sleeping in the room right above without waking them. It just isn't a problem to me. YMMV, and that's fine.
--Eric
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
-------- Original message --------From: stefan_trethan <stefan_trethan@...> Date: 9/7/18  12:27 AM  (GMT-06:00) To: TekScopes@groups.io Subject: Re: Desoldering Iron, was Re: [TekScopes] 466-464 stray wire
I already have a bunch of OK working desoldering stations.
What I was looking for is spending well more than what my car is worth
to upgrade them to something better.
My wishlist was a bit more thermal power, and a bit better quality so
the tips and heaters don't wear out as much, that's not asking much if
you are willing to spend 10 times the money.
This does _not_ mean I'm willing to accept severe trade-offs in other
areas, especially since I compare them to units that cost well under
$100 originally.

I just don't care if the Metcal works well, with that level of noise I
simply don't even need to unpack the power unit because I can never
use it.
It is obvious not only for me but everyone else I showed it to that
this level of noise is not only unacceptable but completely
unnecessary for function.

I think when I am willing to spend whatever is asked I am not paying
just for materials, I am also paying for engineering and I am paying
for the Metcal engineer to spend five minutes of his valueable time to
consider the noise level in his design and take simple steps to
mitigate it. That venturi generators need silencers is not a novel
concept, every pneumatics manufacturer that offers them (e.g. SMC) has
equipped his generators with integral silencers or appropriate
threaded exit ports and offers suitable silencers, not just a freaking
hole in a casting for the air to fart out.

While I am certain I can modify the guns to produce only a reasonable
amount of noise I just don't see why I should do that. It's fine that
I have to finish a $100 chinese Hakko knockoff myself, I expect that,
but if I pay top dollar I expect a finished product. (The Metcal gun
is now also made in China btw).

You guys are like "Yea sure you are test driving this BMW and they
forgot to put on an exhaust muffler, but who gives a damn if it rips
your eardrums out, it goes FAST, so just get over it and wear
headphones". This is _not_ _an_ _option_ for me. I'm just glad I
insisted on a demo unit instead of buying this thing outright.

ST



On Fri, Sep 7, 2018 at 6:17 AM Pete Lancashire <xyzzypdx@...> wrote:

When I use my DS-1 yeah it's loud but it works it sucks solder out of
places very few others will such as my old boat anchors.

If the noise is excessive to you how about getting a little low-cost cheapy
like the hakko line powered one works pretty good on small stuff.

Think of it like having two soldering irons I metcal for the little stuff
and a big old hexacon for the old stuff

Or if it's too noisy wear headphones








Re: Desoldering Iron, was Re: [TekScopes] 466-464 stray wire

EricJ
 

Hi Chuck,
This gun has the venturi right in the gun, not 4 inches from the tip. It's instant vacuum.
--Eric
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.

-------- Original message --------From: Chuck Harris <cfharris@...> Date: 9/7/18 11:32 AM (GMT-06:00) To: TekScopes@groups.io Subject: Re: Desoldering Iron, was Re: [TekScopes] 466-464 stray wire
Eric,

The venturi systems I have seen, have the venturi pump in
the base station, and suck through a 1/4 inch hose that
goes from the base station to the handset.  The venturi
may have very little mass, and produce vacuum fairly
quickly, but it still has to suck air through the narrow
plastic hose that goes to the handset.

A diddly little vacuum pump, with a pressure regulator,
sucking on a vacuum receiver, and a solenoid valve in the
handset is simpler, lighter, and provides a much more
instantaneous vacuum, at the desoldering tip, than the
venturi systems I have seen.

-Chuck Harris

EricJ via Groups.Io wrote:
Hi Chuck,
These desoldering irons use a venturi and compressed air to generate vacuum. They are instantly on at full volume flow as soon as the trigger is pulled. I agree with you that the pump setups are not that great.
--Eric

Re: 7K series - Conceptual question - What's the 3rd most useful plugin

Brendan
 

On Fri, Sep 7, 2018 at 09:33 AM, Fabio Trevisan wrote:


Heyu guys,
Wow! I didn't expect **that much** emotional response in just two days.
I won`t be able to properly answer to all the suggestions, quoting every of
your remarks, so I`ll make an overall wrapup of what grasped more my
attention.

7A13: The number of you guys who mentioned it surprised me! I never gave any
serious thought to it, maybe because of its name... Comparator.

Thanks a lot for all of your inputs.
I`m happy that it triggered interesting discussions among you all and I`ll
keep reading.

Rgrds,

Fabio


Great thread I'm glad you started it. Now the 7A13 is on my next to find list also. Also a replacement probe for my 7A11.

Re: Desoldering Iron, was Re: [TekScopes] 466-464 stray wire

Chuck Harris
 

Ok, that would be a great improvement.
What does it do with the exhaust?

-Chuck Harris

EricJ via Groups.Io wrote:

Hi Chuck,
This gun has the venturi right in the gun, not 4 inches from the tip. It's instant vacuum.
--Eric
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.

Re: Desoldering Iron, was Re: [TekScopes] 466-464 stray wire

Harvey White
 

On Fri, 7 Sep 2018 13:20:17 -0400, you wrote:

Ok, that would be a great improvement.
What does it do with the exhaust?
If it's the Metcal, the exhaust goes out a slit in the handle,
vertical, and near the bottom on the back. Not sure where else it
might go out, but partially blocking that port changes the noise
level, didn't try to measure the vacuum change on mine.

Mine was old, used, and running on the recommended 80 PSI. Wonder if
they mean 80 PSI when running, or 80 PSI static before running?

The manual says nothing here, but there's a significant difference
with my air compressor, at least 10-15 PSI.

They also don't seem to tell us the consumption in CFM.

I've got both types, starting to like the metcal better. One thing
that can be done is to add extra heat in the form of another soldering
pencil, may help with large heavy joints.

Harvey



-Chuck Harris

EricJ via Groups.Io wrote:
Hi Chuck,
This gun has the venturi right in the gun, not 4 inches from the tip. It's instant vacuum.
--Eric
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.

Re: Desoldering Iron, was Re: [TekScopes] 466-464 stray wire

Mark Goldberg
 

On Fri, Sep 7, 2018 at 8:14 AM, stefan_trethan <stefan_trethan@...>
wrote:

I tried some desoldering (did unpack the power station after all ;-) )
and frankly I could see no improvement on the tricky transformer power
plane connections that were giving me trouble. If anything the chinese
one did remove the solder slightly better. Of course the Metcal feels
much more solid, no doubt about that.

The heating power of the Metcal might be there (it heats up faster,
since it has a lot less thermal mass), but I think the bottleneck is
the tip-pad connection and the fairly narrow tube that forms the tip.
The power display on the Metcal did not tick up more than one or at
most two percent when I touched it to that plane, indicating that the
heater did not even see the demand. The thermal design on the chinese
one also sucks, but at least there I can nudge up the temperature to
compensate.

The Metcals were used where I used to work. Where they excelled was in
removing things that did require a lot of energy but where high
temperatures could damage the board, such as connector pins in a multilayer
board with large ground planes. The Metcal keeps the same temperature but
pours on the power to keep it up, even when a large heat sink is in play.
It is not necessary or even possible to increase the temperature to
compensate. I haven't used the Chinese ones, so I can't compare. I
personally have a Metcal iron and hot tweezers but not the desoldering
tool. I swear by them. For soldering, they work better than any other irons
I have used. I've got to work on the capital appropriations committee
(wife) for the desoldering tool and have to run air in from the compresser
in the garage.

I certainly might consider starting with a Chinese one but the post about
tripping a GFCI worries me. The RV we bought was badly miswired and tripped
any GFCI it was plugged into, finally shorted Hot to chassis ground, and we
were only saved from a fire by a very intellegent inverter that shut things
down. I rewired it and am very wary now of unsafe equipment, no matter how
cheap.


As for the room, it's a large space about 24m by 18m and 2+ stories
high with arched concrete ceilings. A few posters are not going to cut
it ;-). I will put in a nice thick shagpile carpet for next year's
budget, but I fear the request will be declined in view of the ESD
floor...

ST
How about antistatic carpet tiles or even cut antistatic carpet like this?

https://www.globalindustrial.com/g/janitorial-maintenance/
mats-carpets/anti-static/esd-anti-static-mats-conductive-carpets

We replaced carpet in our lower level with tile and the family room gets a
fancy throw rug and my lab gets an antistatic carpet mat from global. Not
as pretty but costs several times as much!

Regards,

Mark

Re: Desoldering Iron, was Re: [TekScopes] 466-464 stray wire

David Kuhn
 

Mark:

“ certainly might consider starting with a Chinese one but the post about
tripping a GFCI worries me. The RV we bought was badly miswired and trip”

It’s my Chinaman hot air station tripping the GFCI, not a Venturi thru-hole
desolder station.

I think I’m going to replace the GFCI sockets with regular outlets. I’m
tired of them tripping. I have two benches, a repair bench and a
calibration bench. When the repair bench trips the ground fault, it killls
the power to my file server, cable modem and router. I can’t have that.

Dave


On Fri, Sep 7, 2018 at 1:46 PM Mark Goldberg <marklgoldberg@...>
wrote:

On Fri, Sep 7, 2018 at 8:14 AM, stefan_trethan <stefan_trethan@...>
wrote:

I tried some desoldering (did unpack the power station after all ;-) )
and frankly I could see no improvement on the tricky transformer power
plane connections that were giving me trouble. If anything the chinese
one did remove the solder slightly better. Of course the Metcal feels
much more solid, no doubt about that.

The heating power of the Metcal might be there (it heats up faster,
since it has a lot less thermal mass), but I think the bottleneck is
the tip-pad connection and the fairly narrow tube that forms the tip.
The power display on the Metcal did not tick up more than one or at
most two percent when I touched it to that plane, indicating that the
heater did not even see the demand. The thermal design on the chinese
one also sucks, but at least there I can nudge up the temperature to
compensate.

The Metcals were used where I used to work. Where they excelled was in
removing things that did require a lot of energy but where high
temperatures could damage the board, such as connector pins in a multilayer
board with large ground planes. The Metcal keeps the same temperature but
pours on the power to keep it up, even when a large heat sink is in play.
It is not necessary or even possible to increase the temperature to
compensate. I haven't used the Chinese ones, so I can't compare. I
personally have a Metcal iron and hot tweezers but not the desoldering
tool. I swear by them. For soldering, they work better than any other irons
I have used. I've got to work on the capital appropriations committee
(wife) for the desoldering tool and have to run air in from the compresser
in the garage.

I certainly might consider starting with a Chinese one but the post about
tripping a GFCI worries me. The RV we bought was badly miswired and tripped
any GFCI it was plugged into, finally shorted Hot to chassis ground, and we
were only saved from a fire by a very intellegent inverter that shut things
down. I rewired it and am very wary now of unsafe equipment, no matter how
cheap.


As for the room, it's a large space about 24m by 18m and 2+ stories
high with arched concrete ceilings. A few posters are not going to cut
it ;-). I will put in a nice thick shagpile carpet for next year's
budget, but I fear the request will be declined in view of the ESD
floor...

ST
How about antistatic carpet tiles or even cut antistatic carpet like this?

https://www.globalindustrial.com/g/janitorial-maintenance/
mats-carpets/anti-static/esd-anti-static-mats-conductive-carpets

We replaced carpet in our lower level with tile and the family room gets a
fancy throw rug and my lab gets an antistatic carpet mat from global. Not
as pretty but costs several times as much!

Regards,

Mark



Re: Desoldering Iron, was Re: [TekScopes] 466-464 stray wire

EricJ
 

Yep, spits the exhaust out at the handle - that's the noise Stefan finds objectionable. I do agree they could have done a bit better job with the exhaust. At least they could have run it out the bottom of the handle and through a silencer hose.
--Eric
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.

-------- Original message --------From: Chuck Harris <cfharris@...> Date: 9/7/18 12:20 PM (GMT-06:00) To: TekScopes@groups.io Subject: Re: Desoldering Iron, was Re: [TekScopes] 466-464 stray wire
Ok, that would be a great improvement.
What does it do with the exhaust?

-Chuck Harris

EricJ via Groups.Io wrote:
Hi Chuck,
This gun has the venturi right in the gun, not 4 inches from the tip. It's instant vacuum.
--Eric
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.

Re: TDS210, schematic and parts required.

Graham Butcher
 

Oh, so they are doing an "Apple" on us then eh, denying us the right to repair our own property, I can understand it if its within warranty but once its no longer covered by warranty then we should have the right to be able to repair ourselves or take to someone who can repair it paying through the nose for it. Not only that but these things are now 30 years old and they don't to repair them, they want us to buy a new model from them, grrr

Graham
________________________________
From: TekScopes@groups.io <TekScopes@groups.io> on behalf of David Kuhn <Daveyk021@...>
Sent: 07 September 2018 14:01
To: TekScopes@groups.io
Subject: Re: [TekScopes] TDS210, schematic and parts required.

No schematics because Tek wants all the service business for themselves,
and like Germans, think that no one in the world is smart enough to
understand their designs in order to service them themselves.

One Tek, or other manufacturers, stop service repair support for a product,
they should release the schematics.

I would love to have the schematics for a Agilent 11723B. They were almost
going to send me copies with an NDA, but at last minute said they would
evaluate it for only $300. Then they would decide witch board to replace.
(Sigh)

Dave

On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 1:12 PM Graham Butcher <
graham.l.n.butcher@...> wrote:

Yes I did try there and thats where I downloaded the user and service
manuals but it has no schematics (in fact it has a request just below the
tag for the manuals requesting schematics to be uploaded) It also of course
does not provide any linkage or reference to spare parts unless I missed
something?

Graham



Re: TDS210, schematic and parts required.

Chuck Harris
 

Let's imagine that we live in a highly litigious society,
where patent trolls roam the streets of Silicon Valleys
everywhere looking for infringements of IP they control.

Now, let's imagine that you are an engineer at an Apple
or a Tektronix, trying to do your job designing new equipment.

Do you:

A) have the engineer spend all of his time searching the
files at patent offices world wide before he lays down
any circuitry, or software?

Or do you:

B) let him work, patent what he does that seems novel, and
don't hand out documentation for the patent trolls to
peruse looking for lawsuits they can win?

When the world was kinder, and there were fewer lawyers,
companies were a lot more open with their IP. Now, revealing
the circuitry on your circuit boards or inside of your chips,
or the algorithms in your source code for your firmware would
be the same as hanging out a "Please Sue Me!" sign.

Besides, the parts of this equipment that you can repair is
all stuff where the schematics and source code are of very
little use. Are you going to burn a new ASIC to fix your
iPhone?

For instance, I can just as easily replace a battery, or
a Flash RAM without any schematics at all.

-Chuck Harris


Graham Butcher wrote:

Oh, so they are doing an "Apple" on us then eh, denying us the right to repair our own property, I can understand it if its within warranty but once its no longer covered by warranty then we should have the right to be able to repair ourselves or take to someone who can repair it paying through the nose for it. Not only that but these things are now 30 years old and they don't to repair them, they want us to buy a new model from them, grrr

Graham

Re: TDS210, schematic and parts required.

ArtekManuals
 

Graham et all

While I appreciate the frustration at no longer being able to get schematics for the newer gear don't flatter yourself that as "hobbiest" that any large equipment corporation really  cares whether you buy a new piece of gear or not.  You (and I) as hobbiest living off the dumpster dregs are such a small portion of the total market as to not be relevant.  The evolution of the loss of schematics in newer gear/manuals was an evolutionary process, driven by many factors;

1) The "real" cost of printing a new service manual is much higher than you might expect and goes way beyond the hourly cost of the copy and printing room hourly employee. By the time you figure the buyers time to buy supplies, inventory carrying cost, overhead costs (FICA Taxes, health insurance, 401K contribution, vacation, sick leave, a piece of the copy room persons boss, and his boss and his bosses boss, HR person,etc ) the activity based costs for a 300 page page service manual can easily go beyond $250-$500 per copy. At $300 you would unlikely be willing to pay for a service manual for your TDS210 even if I could show you that is what it costs to produce it in today's dollars This is a very big reason why we don't at ArtekManuals produce hard copies of manuals we already have scanned, most people will live with a PDF for $15 before they will pay even a $100 for a good paper copy. The economics of this is why a large percentage of the  guys who were printing xerox copies 5 years ago (Manuals Plus, Your Manual Source, Etc) have hung up their aprons, they could make enough margin to cover the OH costs of just the warehouse alone let alone "production costs.

2) Next with the influx of custom IC's, 256pin gull wing packages and finally ball grid arrays the ability to repair a modern board goes beyond the talent of most all but a few of we mere mortals with our weller solder guns.

3) Then there was the case for protecting intellectual property. While not as big a factor in today's world, reverse engineering back in the 90's when this trend started was certainly aided by the full schematics.

You couple all of the above together plus a few more things and everyone in the meeting room where this was being discussed 30 years ago slammed their palm against the foreheads, muttered "duhhhh" under their breath and agreed to get out of the manual business.

Tried to work on your own car lately???? A dont forget to stop off on the way home from work tonight and buy the guy who runs the local TV repair shop a beer ...Oh wait you stopped taking your TV to the shop 30 years ago too and he went out of business

Flame suit on :-P

Dave
manuals@...

On 9/7/2018 2:06 PM, Graham Butcher wrote:
Oh, so they are doing an "Apple" on us then eh, denying us the right to repair our own property, I can understand it if its within warranty but once its no longer covered by warranty then we should have the right to be able to repair ourselves or take to someone who can repair it paying through the nose for it. Not only that but these things are now 30 years old and they don't to repair them, they want us to buy a new model from them, grrr

Graham
________________________________
From: TekScopes@groups.io <TekScopes@groups.io> on behalf of David Kuhn <Daveyk021@...>
Sent: 07 September 2018 14:01
To: TekScopes@groups.io
Subject: Re: [TekScopes] TDS210, schematic and parts required.

No schematics because Tek wants all the service business for themselves,
and like Germans, think that no one in the world is smart enough to
understand their designs in order to service them themselves.

One Tek, or other manufacturers, stop service repair support for a product,
they should release the schematics.

I would love to have the schematics for a Agilent 11723B. They were almost
going to send me copies with an NDA, but at last minute said they would
evaluate it for only $300. Then they would decide witch board to replace.
(Sigh)

Dave

On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 1:12 PM Graham Butcher <
graham.l.n.butcher@...> wrote:

Yes I did try there and thats where I downloaded the user and service
manuals but it has no schematics (in fact it has a request just below the
tag for the manuals requesting schematics to be uploaded) It also of course
does not provide any linkage or reference to spare parts unless I missed
something?

Graham






--
Dave
Manuals@...
www.ArtekManuals.com