Date   
Re: TDS3032 Loosing its GPIB Address

 


Question: Can the firmware be updated through the GPIB? The only way I know is through the floppy drive.
Not that I know of

Please tell me that Dallas DRAM (grrrr) is socketed and not soldered to the PCB?
All the ones I've seen were soldered to the board

I think I can get Dallas DRAMS from China, but I imagine they are just as
old NOS with dying batteries in them? Can you kindly confirm the I.C. part number?
If you mean Tek P/N I have no idea, if you mean the Dallas number, yes it is DS1742W-150

/Håkan

Re: 7K series - Conceptual question - What's the 3rd most useful plugin

Pete Lancashire
 

I see someone suggest a 7D02 you can use it in a 7603 but be very careful
it exceeds the power supplies capability yes exceeds. You will affect with
me smoke are at the best shorten the life of any 4-hole Mainframe.

And I have proof of that many times in my years at Tech I actually saw a
7.2 set a Mainframe almost on fire.

If you have the room go with a company that knows how to make logic
analyzers HP. The best deal out there right now is the 16702B. If you take
your time you can get amazing cards for it. Over the years I have filled
two of them for less than $300.

That's my opinion take it or leave it

On Wed, Sep 5, 2018, 6:31 PM Harvey White <madyn@...> wrote:

On Wed, 05 Sep 2018 17:29:59 -0700, you wrote:

Crap, now you guys have added to my wishlist the 7D20 and 7A13! Oops, I
spoke too soon, the 7A13 is already on the wishlist!
7D20 has a GPIB connection, so I gotta have one someday. The wife will
question my impeccable logic...
Jim
<evil laugh>


Now, also consider, if you do some digital, the 7A42 is a 4 channel
plugin with combinational logic triggering. It is useful if you don't
have a separate logic analyzer. Having said that, I *do* have a logic
analyzer, and I've never used mine (the 7A42).

There's essentially three directions you can go into with electronics
design. 1) digital 2) RF 3) general purpose.

For Digital:

7A26 (a pair of them), 7D20 (yes, and even though you have a storage
scope, a digital storage scope provides a longer lasting trace). 7D02
*if* you deal with microprocessors and they're old ones (anything
newer than an AVR and including an AVR, Pic, etc... any
microcontroller, a 7D02 is likely to be less useful.) 7A42.

for RF: Consider any of the 7L spectrum analyzers depending on the
frequencies you want to play with. Not quite my field, and there are
other analyzers out there with better specs, ask the RF types.

General: Here's where the 7A13 comes in, for the low level,
moderately low frequency differential measurements (ripple on a power
supply, etc.) The 7A22 has different bandwidth filters, and less neat
offset capability. The 7A26 allows two more analog channels. 7A18
can also be considered if you only want 75 Mhz bandwidth.

When doing digital, you often want to look at more than four signals.
At this point, a logic analyzer is really your best bet (and I assume
all the signals are digital in nature). As a separate piece of
equipment, you'd want one that has at least 32 channels, and yes, I do
use that many. (monitoring *all* the ports on an ARM processor, with
one that has 4 16 bit ports, well, you need 64 data inputs. Even
though the processor I use (format wise) doesn't have a complete set
of the last 16 bits in a port, it still takes 16 bits capability, so
64 bits).

When doing RF: If you're a ham, then anything up to 1.2 Ghz covers
most of the bands you'd use, but above that means you're doing some
specialized (IMHO) microwave work. YMMV on this.

If you're doing Digital, or general purpose, and you are doing either
B, G, or N WiFi, or you're doing NRF24xxx 2.4 GHz RF, you may want a
spectrum analyzer that goes to about 3 GHz, but certainly takes in the
2.4 to 2.5 Ghz band. There are ways of working around this, but
still, much nicer.

General purpose has the fewest real specialized plugins, but the 7a13
(and mine are all digital because I *like* digital) are useful, as are
the 7A22. Again, the 7A22 has a whole host of bandwidth filters to
allow you to look at a specific frequency. There are HF filters and
low frequency filters so you could look at a specific bandwith in the
face of other frequencies, and still get a good idea.

There's other stuff out there, too, I'm sure.

I do a lot of digital, some general purpose, and not a lot of RF.

The 7904 I have is very useful, as is the Agilent 16702B logic
analyzer.

My more or less favorite load on a 7904 is a 7A26, 7D12 with an M2
plugin (sampling), a 7D15 in a horizontal slot, and a 7B92A in the
last horizontal slot. That, of course, varies.

Harvey




Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
-------- Original message --------From: Raymond Domp Frank <
@Raymond> Date: 9/5/18 4:49 PM (GMT-08:00) To:
TekScopes@groups.io Subject: Re: [TekScopes] 7K series - Conceptual
question - What's the 3rd most useful plugin
On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 12:14 AM, Harvey White wrote:


You can likely feed
the counter from the vertical signal output
Yes, you can. For a permanent setup, like Fabio seems to want, I wouldn't
like a BNC plug in the socket on the front all the time but a counter *is*
very useful.
A 7D20, effectively converting the 7623A into a digital 'scope with its
own digital storage, isn't a good match for the analog storage
functionality of the 7623A. In a 7603, a 7D20 makes for a very nice 'scope.
The 7D20 is very much "analog-like".

Raymond







Re: 7K series - Conceptual question - What's the 3rd most useful plugin

Harvey White
 

On Thu, 6 Sep 2018 15:29:14 -0700, you wrote:

I see someone suggest a 7D02 you can use it in a 7603 but be very careful
it exceeds the power supplies capability yes exceeds. You will affect with
me smoke are at the best shorten the life of any 4-hole Mainframe.

And I have proof of that many times in my years at Tech I actually saw a
7.2 set a Mainframe almost on fire.

If you have the room go with a company that knows how to make logic
analyzers HP. The best deal out there right now is the 16702B. If you take
your time you can get amazing cards for it. Over the years I have filled
two of them for less than $300.

That's my opinion take it or leave it
He rather specifically wanted 7000 series plugins. While I do have a
7D20, I don't use it very much, I do have digital scopes of varying
capacity and bandwidth.

Didn't know about the high current power consumption of the 7D20,
which you'd think that Tek would have fixed since they intended it for
the 7600 series.

Without taking mine apart, are enough chips in sockets that you could
replace them with 74LS and reduce the power consumption to something
reasonable?

Any idea which supplies are the problems?

As for the 16702B, I have one. Anybody interested in a 16702A?

As I've said elsewhere. I love Tek scopes, but really, their logic
analyers drive me up a wall (and I do have a 308). HP logic analyzers
are wonderful, but I never liked their scopes.

Harvey



On Wed, Sep 5, 2018, 6:31 PM Harvey White <madyn@...> wrote:

On Wed, 05 Sep 2018 17:29:59 -0700, you wrote:

Crap, now you guys have added to my wishlist the 7D20 and 7A13! Oops, I
spoke too soon, the 7A13 is already on the wishlist!
7D20 has a GPIB connection, so I gotta have one someday. The wife will
question my impeccable logic...
Jim
<evil laugh>


Now, also consider, if you do some digital, the 7A42 is a 4 channel
plugin with combinational logic triggering. It is useful if you don't
have a separate logic analyzer. Having said that, I *do* have a logic
analyzer, and I've never used mine (the 7A42).

There's essentially three directions you can go into with electronics
design. 1) digital 2) RF 3) general purpose.

For Digital:

7A26 (a pair of them), 7D20 (yes, and even though you have a storage
scope, a digital storage scope provides a longer lasting trace). 7D02
*if* you deal with microprocessors and they're old ones (anything
newer than an AVR and including an AVR, Pic, etc... any
microcontroller, a 7D02 is likely to be less useful.) 7A42.

for RF: Consider any of the 7L spectrum analyzers depending on the
frequencies you want to play with. Not quite my field, and there are
other analyzers out there with better specs, ask the RF types.

General: Here's where the 7A13 comes in, for the low level,
moderately low frequency differential measurements (ripple on a power
supply, etc.) The 7A22 has different bandwidth filters, and less neat
offset capability. The 7A26 allows two more analog channels. 7A18
can also be considered if you only want 75 Mhz bandwidth.

When doing digital, you often want to look at more than four signals.
At this point, a logic analyzer is really your best bet (and I assume
all the signals are digital in nature). As a separate piece of
equipment, you'd want one that has at least 32 channels, and yes, I do
use that many. (monitoring *all* the ports on an ARM processor, with
one that has 4 16 bit ports, well, you need 64 data inputs. Even
though the processor I use (format wise) doesn't have a complete set
of the last 16 bits in a port, it still takes 16 bits capability, so
64 bits).

When doing RF: If you're a ham, then anything up to 1.2 Ghz covers
most of the bands you'd use, but above that means you're doing some
specialized (IMHO) microwave work. YMMV on this.

If you're doing Digital, or general purpose, and you are doing either
B, G, or N WiFi, or you're doing NRF24xxx 2.4 GHz RF, you may want a
spectrum analyzer that goes to about 3 GHz, but certainly takes in the
2.4 to 2.5 Ghz band. There are ways of working around this, but
still, much nicer.

General purpose has the fewest real specialized plugins, but the 7a13
(and mine are all digital because I *like* digital) are useful, as are
the 7A22. Again, the 7A22 has a whole host of bandwidth filters to
allow you to look at a specific frequency. There are HF filters and
low frequency filters so you could look at a specific bandwith in the
face of other frequencies, and still get a good idea.

There's other stuff out there, too, I'm sure.

I do a lot of digital, some general purpose, and not a lot of RF.

The 7904 I have is very useful, as is the Agilent 16702B logic
analyzer.

My more or less favorite load on a 7904 is a 7A26, 7D12 with an M2
plugin (sampling), a 7D15 in a horizontal slot, and a 7B92A in the
last horizontal slot. That, of course, varies.

Harvey




Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
-------- Original message --------From: Raymond Domp Frank <
@Raymond> Date: 9/5/18 4:49 PM (GMT-08:00) To:
TekScopes@groups.io Subject: Re: [TekScopes] 7K series - Conceptual
question - What's the 3rd most useful plugin
On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 12:14 AM, Harvey White wrote:


You can likely feed
the counter from the vertical signal output
Yes, you can. For a permanent setup, like Fabio seems to want, I wouldn't
like a BNC plug in the socket on the front all the time but a counter *is*
very useful.
A 7D20, effectively converting the 7623A into a digital 'scope with its
own digital storage, isn't a good match for the analog storage
functionality of the 7623A. In a 7603, a 7D20 makes for a very nice 'scope.
The 7D20 is very much "analog-like".

Raymond








Re: Desoldering Iron, was Re: [TekScopes] 466-464 stray wire

tom jobe <tomjobe@...>
 

Hi Stefan,
Today when I got home I downloaded a nicely rated Decibel app to my phone, and the 20 year old Metcal MX-DS1 I have makes around 95 dB when you hold the phone close to the MX-SD1 and then drops to around 80 or 85 dB when the MX-DS1 is maybe 40 cm from the phone? These numbers are at 80 psi air pressure.
I have never thought of this desoldering tool as being very noisy, but then I am getting a little older.
I'd guess that your MX-DS1 is about the same as mine.
tom jobe...

On 9/6/2018 5:21 AM, stefan_trethan wrote:
Based on your recommendation I now have a demo unit of the Metcal
MX5210 here, with the MX-DS1 desoldering gun.
But there is a problem with it - it is incredibly loud, measured at 95dB(A).
I have the correct pressure and everything installed per the
instructions, but surely this can't be right.
The venturi exhausts directly into the handle, which is completely
empty, no silcencer of any kind, and the air comes out via a slot into
your palm which seems odd too.

Please let me know if your MX-DS1 is built the same, or if there
should be some kind of silencer in the handle which is missing on
mine. The sound level is completely unacceptable, not just for
co-workers but also for the operator, 95dB is mandatory hearing
protection level loud...

ST

Re: Desoldering Iron, was Re: [TekScopes] 466-464 stray wire

Ken Winterling
 

I would check the wiring.  I have had switched outlet strips with the hot and neutral swapped and the switch and fuse/circuit breaker in different leads. 
Ken WA2LBI LG G6

------ Original message------From: David KuhnDate: Thu, Sep 6, 2018 17:10To: TekScopes@groups.io;Cc: Subject:Re: Desoldering Iron, was Re: [TekScopes] 466-464 stray wire
" but I'm cheap too..... "

LOL, same here. I should take it apart an make sure they don't have the
hot and neutral swapped when they wired it for US use. I would really
doubt that.

Dave

On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 2:02 PM stefan_trethan wrote:

It could be that the heater wire is deforming as it heats up and
touching the metal housing somewhere, that could trip the GFI and
might not even show up on an insulation test.
We don't have GFI outlets here, just central GFIs in the distribution
panels. Used to be just a single three phase one for the whole house
(30mA) but now several are required.
They rarely fail but last year I had a bad one right out of the box.
It was only tripping intermittently (most dangerous), but luckily the
work experience lad who was wiring the distribution panel caught it.
Probably a mechanical issue since I could hear something rattling
around inside, and after some shaking it did not exhibit the fault any
more, but of course I changed it anyway.
I guess I should buy a different brand where I was shown on a factory
tour that they assemble the core mechanism in a cleanroom, but I'm
cheap too.....

ST
On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 7:20 PM David Kuhn wrote:

" Yours must be faulty if it trips the RCD, perhaps the heater, I would
try again I've really been very satisfied with the cheap ones. "

Okay; thanks. I should take it apart and make sure it is wired okay. I
think it is. It does work, but once it's been running for a few minutes,
it kills the power.

The shop is wired with separate 20 amp circuits and 12 gauge wire. 20
years ago, I went a little cheap, and rather than GFCI breakers, I ran
the
20 amp lines out of the breaker box and then through a 20 AMP GFCI outlet
and then to the shop. Nothing else is tripping it except that hot air
station. Either it is drawing too much current, or those outlets are
failing. Upstairs, in the last year, I've had to replace three of them
that would not trip at all anymore. I think they only have a limited
lifetime.

I'll also have to take the hot air station apart and check that its mains
is wired correctly, but that wouldn't explain why it's fine for a few
minutes and the the GFCI outlet trips. i would lean more towards the
outlet itself.

Dave

On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 12:23 PM stefan_trethan
wrote:

David,

I've had those chinese (AOYUE 8hundredsomething) hot air stations for
years.
Both at home, and every bench at work has one.

I don't use them that often, maybe once a week, but they have given
absolutely no trouble.
Only a couple of the segments on the temperature display have stopped
working.

Yours must be faulty if it trips the RCD, perhaps the heater, I would
try again I've really been very satisfied with the cheap ones.

ST


On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 6:04 PM David Kuhn wrote:

Wow, that's about a $950 setup as far as I can see. It looks great
though.

I've always used a HAKKO 808 for thru-hole de-soldering and wick.
The
Hakko 808 isn't real cheap either and it's supplied (tips, filters,
replacement elements, etc.) can add up. I use it when really
necessary.
For easy stuff, I use the old fashion hand pump and wick. When I am
working on more delicate boards, that still have thru-hole, then I
use
the
Hakko.

I see Hakko has a cheaper FR300-xxx for about $270.00. It looks like
it
uses the same tips.

I guess I am a Hakko fanboy (lol). I love their irons and use a 928
setup
daily, with a chisel tip and a micro-tip.

For Hot Air, I tried a Chinese 862D+ and it is pure garbage. It
make hot
air but blows the ground faults all the time (My shop is in the
basement,
so all lines are on 20 amps GFCI breakers. i need a hot air system
that
won't break the bank. Hakko hot air is probably too expensive.

Anyway, sorry for hijacking your thread.

Dave

On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 8:21 AM stefan_trethan >
wrote:

Based on your recommendation I now have a demo unit of the Metcal
MX5210 here, with the MX-DS1 desoldering gun.
But there is a problem with it - it is incredibly loud, measured at
95dB(A).
I have the correct pressure and everything installed per the
instructions, but surely this can't be right.
The venturi exhausts directly into the handle, which is completely
empty, no silcencer of any kind, and the air comes out via a slot
into
your palm which seems odd too.

Please let me know if your MX-DS1 is built the same, or if there
should be some kind of silencer in the handle which is missing on
mine. The sound level is completely unacceptable, not just for
co-workers but also for the operator, 95dB is mandatory hearing
protection level loud...

ST









Re: Desoldering Iron, was Re: [TekScopes] 466-464 stray wire

stefan_trethan
 

Hot / neutral swapped does not matter unless it has a fault in the first place.
Certainly for equipment designed for the international market there
can't be excessive earth leakage from either line.

ST

On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 11:10 PM David Kuhn <Daveyk021@...> wrote:

" but I'm cheap too..... "

LOL, same here. I should take it apart an make sure they don't have the
hot and neutral swapped when they wired it for US use. I would really
doubt that.

Dave

On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 2:02 PM stefan_trethan <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:

It could be that the heater wire is deforming as it heats up and
touching the metal housing somewhere, that could trip the GFI and
might not even show up on an insulation test.
We don't have GFI outlets here, just central GFIs in the distribution
panels. Used to be just a single three phase one for the whole house
(30mA) but now several are required.
They rarely fail but last year I had a bad one right out of the box.
It was only tripping intermittently (most dangerous), but luckily the
work experience lad who was wiring the distribution panel caught it.
Probably a mechanical issue since I could hear something rattling
around inside, and after some shaking it did not exhibit the fault any
more, but of course I changed it anyway.
I guess I should buy a different brand where I was shown on a factory
tour that they assemble the core mechanism in a cleanroom, but I'm
cheap too.....

ST
On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 7:20 PM David Kuhn <Daveyk021@...> wrote:

" Yours must be faulty if it trips the RCD, perhaps the heater, I would
try again I've really been very satisfied with the cheap ones. "

Okay; thanks. I should take it apart and make sure it is wired okay. I
think it is. It does work, but once it's been running for a few minutes,
it kills the power.

The shop is wired with separate 20 amp circuits and 12 gauge wire. 20
years ago, I went a little cheap, and rather than GFCI breakers, I ran
the
20 amp lines out of the breaker box and then through a 20 AMP GFCI outlet
and then to the shop. Nothing else is tripping it except that hot air
station. Either it is drawing too much current, or those outlets are
failing. Upstairs, in the last year, I've had to replace three of them
that would not trip at all anymore. I think they only have a limited
lifetime.

I'll also have to take the hot air station apart and check that its mains
is wired correctly, but that wouldn't explain why it's fine for a few
minutes and the the GFCI outlet trips. i would lean more towards the
outlet itself.

Dave

On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 12:23 PM stefan_trethan <stefan_trethan@...>
wrote:

David,

I've had those chinese (AOYUE 8hundredsomething) hot air stations for
years.
Both at home, and every bench at work has one.

I don't use them that often, maybe once a week, but they have given
absolutely no trouble.
Only a couple of the segments on the temperature display have stopped
working.

Yours must be faulty if it trips the RCD, perhaps the heater, I would
try again I've really been very satisfied with the cheap ones.

ST


On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 6:04 PM David Kuhn <Daveyk021@...> wrote:

Wow, that's about a $950 setup as far as I can see. It looks great
though.

I've always used a HAKKO 808 for thru-hole de-soldering and wick.
The
Hakko 808 isn't real cheap either and it's supplied (tips, filters,
replacement elements, etc.) can add up. I use it when really
necessary.
For easy stuff, I use the old fashion hand pump and wick. When I am
working on more delicate boards, that still have thru-hole, then I
use
the
Hakko.

I see Hakko has a cheaper FR300-xxx for about $270.00. It looks like
it
uses the same tips.

I guess I am a Hakko fanboy (lol). I love their irons and use a 928
setup
daily, with a chisel tip and a micro-tip.

For Hot Air, I tried a Chinese 862D+ and it is pure garbage. It
make hot
air but blows the ground faults all the time (My shop is in the
basement,
so all lines are on 20 amps GFCI breakers. i need a hot air system
that
won't break the bank. Hakko hot air is probably too expensive.

Anyway, sorry for hijacking your thread.

Dave

On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 8:21 AM stefan_trethan <stefan_trethan@...
wrote:

Based on your recommendation I now have a demo unit of the Metcal
MX5210 here, with the MX-DS1 desoldering gun.
But there is a problem with it - it is incredibly loud, measured at
95dB(A).
I have the correct pressure and everything installed per the
instructions, but surely this can't be right.
The venturi exhausts directly into the handle, which is completely
empty, no silcencer of any kind, and the air comes out via a slot
into
your palm which seems odd too.

Please let me know if your MX-DS1 is built the same, or if there
should be some kind of silencer in the handle which is missing on
mine. The sound level is completely unacceptable, not just for
co-workers but also for the operator, 95dB is mandatory hearing
protection level loud...

ST










(2232 'scopes) Custom replacement for 165-0011-00/02

Ram
 

Some time back I purchased a Tek 2232 scope with a bad A/D converter hybrid part 165-0011-02. After much procrastination, got down to designing a replacement for it that uses the same ADC - AD9002 (available off ePray) - but a fresh signal conditioning portion to replace the accompanying Tek chip 234-XX-XX. I noticed a few others had issues with their hybrid ADC chips too, so in case this design will be useful to others trying to repair their 2232 storage section, I've put up some bare PCBs on ePray, Just search for "165-0011-00 pcb". Schematic will be shipped with the PCB.
Cheers - Ram

Re: Desoldering Iron, was Re: [TekScopes] 466-464 stray wire

Pete Lancashire
 

When I use my DS-1 yeah it's loud but it works it sucks solder out of
places very few others will such as my old boat anchors.

If the noise is excessive to you how about getting a little low-cost cheapy
like the hakko line powered one works pretty good on small stuff.

Think of it like having two soldering irons I metcal for the little stuff
and a big old hexacon for the old stuff

Or if it's too noisy wear headphones

On Thu, Sep 6, 2018, 8:28 PM stefan_trethan <stefan_trethan@...> wrote:

Hot / neutral swapped does not matter unless it has a fault in the first
place.
Certainly for equipment designed for the international market there
can't be excessive earth leakage from either line.

ST
On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 11:10 PM David Kuhn <Daveyk021@...> wrote:

" but I'm cheap too..... "

LOL, same here. I should take it apart an make sure they don't have the
hot and neutral swapped when they wired it for US use. I would really
doubt that.

Dave

On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 2:02 PM stefan_trethan <stefan_trethan@...>
wrote:

It could be that the heater wire is deforming as it heats up and
touching the metal housing somewhere, that could trip the GFI and
might not even show up on an insulation test.
We don't have GFI outlets here, just central GFIs in the distribution
panels. Used to be just a single three phase one for the whole house
(30mA) but now several are required.
They rarely fail but last year I had a bad one right out of the box.
It was only tripping intermittently (most dangerous), but luckily the
work experience lad who was wiring the distribution panel caught it.
Probably a mechanical issue since I could hear something rattling
around inside, and after some shaking it did not exhibit the fault any
more, but of course I changed it anyway.
I guess I should buy a different brand where I was shown on a factory
tour that they assemble the core mechanism in a cleanroom, but I'm
cheap too.....

ST
On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 7:20 PM David Kuhn <Daveyk021@...> wrote:

" Yours must be faulty if it trips the RCD, perhaps the heater, I
would
try again I've really been very satisfied with the cheap ones. "

Okay; thanks. I should take it apart and make sure it is wired
okay. I
think it is. It does work, but once it's been running for a few
minutes,
it kills the power.

The shop is wired with separate 20 amp circuits and 12 gauge wire.
20
years ago, I went a little cheap, and rather than GFCI breakers, I
ran
the
20 amp lines out of the breaker box and then through a 20 AMP GFCI
outlet
and then to the shop. Nothing else is tripping it except that hot
air
station. Either it is drawing too much current, or those outlets are
failing. Upstairs, in the last year, I've had to replace three of
them
that would not trip at all anymore. I think they only have a limited
lifetime.

I'll also have to take the hot air station apart and check that its
mains
is wired correctly, but that wouldn't explain why it's fine for a few
minutes and the the GFCI outlet trips. i would lean more towards the
outlet itself.

Dave

On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 12:23 PM stefan_trethan <
stefan_trethan@...>
wrote:

David,

I've had those chinese (AOYUE 8hundredsomething) hot air stations
for
years.
Both at home, and every bench at work has one.

I don't use them that often, maybe once a week, but they have given
absolutely no trouble.
Only a couple of the segments on the temperature display have
stopped
working.

Yours must be faulty if it trips the RCD, perhaps the heater, I
would
try again I've really been very satisfied with the cheap ones.

ST


On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 6:04 PM David Kuhn <Daveyk021@...>
wrote:

Wow, that's about a $950 setup as far as I can see. It looks
great
though.

I've always used a HAKKO 808 for thru-hole de-soldering and wick.
The
Hakko 808 isn't real cheap either and it's supplied (tips,
filters,
replacement elements, etc.) can add up. I use it when really
necessary.
For easy stuff, I use the old fashion hand pump and wick. When
I am
working on more delicate boards, that still have thru-hole, then
I
use
the
Hakko.

I see Hakko has a cheaper FR300-xxx for about $270.00. It looks
like
it
uses the same tips.

I guess I am a Hakko fanboy (lol). I love their irons and use a
928
setup
daily, with a chisel tip and a micro-tip.

For Hot Air, I tried a Chinese 862D+ and it is pure garbage. It
make hot
air but blows the ground faults all the time (My shop is in the
basement,
so all lines are on 20 amps GFCI breakers. i need a hot air
system
that
won't break the bank. Hakko hot air is probably too expensive.

Anyway, sorry for hijacking your thread.

Dave

On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 8:21 AM stefan_trethan <
stefan_trethan@...

wrote:

Based on your recommendation I now have a demo unit of the
Metcal
MX5210 here, with the MX-DS1 desoldering gun.
But there is a problem with it - it is incredibly loud,
measured at
95dB(A).
I have the correct pressure and everything installed per the
instructions, but surely this can't be right.
The venturi exhausts directly into the handle, which is
completely
empty, no silcencer of any kind, and the air comes out via a
slot
into
your palm which seems odd too.

Please let me know if your MX-DS1 is built the same, or if
there
should be some kind of silencer in the handle which is missing
on
mine. The sound level is completely unacceptable, not just for
co-workers but also for the operator, 95dB is mandatory hearing
protection level loud...

ST












Re: 7K series - Conceptual question - What's the 3rd most useful plugin

hpxref
 

Here's one not mentioned yet?
My actually most used PI is an older 7A12. Its illuminated push button vert sensitivity selection for both 105MHz channels
rather than a rotary switch I find quicker and more natural to use.
But for general purpose fault finding or development work the variable DC offset on each channel is very convenient
when you are looking at a low level dc coupled signal raised up on a higher circuit dc offset, which is often the case.
Was unsure of buying it at the time because of its age , but It has become the most used plug in I own!
Its only problem has been the loss of the pull out which fell out and was then lost, so its become
a permanent part of one of my 7603's for years now and will stay there!
Rgds all
John

Re: Desoldering Iron, was Re: [TekScopes] 466-464 stray wire

stefan_trethan
 

I already have a bunch of OK working desoldering stations.
What I was looking for is spending well more than what my car is worth
to upgrade them to something better.
My wishlist was a bit more thermal power, and a bit better quality so
the tips and heaters don't wear out as much, that's not asking much if
you are willing to spend 10 times the money.
This does _not_ mean I'm willing to accept severe trade-offs in other
areas, especially since I compare them to units that cost well under
$100 originally.

I just don't care if the Metcal works well, with that level of noise I
simply don't even need to unpack the power unit because I can never
use it.
It is obvious not only for me but everyone else I showed it to that
this level of noise is not only unacceptable but completely
unnecessary for function.

I think when I am willing to spend whatever is asked I am not paying
just for materials, I am also paying for engineering and I am paying
for the Metcal engineer to spend five minutes of his valueable time to
consider the noise level in his design and take simple steps to
mitigate it. That venturi generators need silencers is not a novel
concept, every pneumatics manufacturer that offers them (e.g. SMC) has
equipped his generators with integral silencers or appropriate
threaded exit ports and offers suitable silencers, not just a freaking
hole in a casting for the air to fart out.

While I am certain I can modify the guns to produce only a reasonable
amount of noise I just don't see why I should do that. It's fine that
I have to finish a $100 chinese Hakko knockoff myself, I expect that,
but if I pay top dollar I expect a finished product. (The Metcal gun
is now also made in China btw).

You guys are like "Yea sure you are test driving this BMW and they
forgot to put on an exhaust muffler, but who gives a damn if it rips
your eardrums out, it goes FAST, so just get over it and wear
headphones". This is _not_ _an_ _option_ for me. I'm just glad I
insisted on a demo unit instead of buying this thing outright.

ST

On Fri, Sep 7, 2018 at 6:17 AM Pete Lancashire <xyzzypdx@...> wrote:

When I use my DS-1 yeah it's loud but it works it sucks solder out of
places very few others will such as my old boat anchors.

If the noise is excessive to you how about getting a little low-cost cheapy
like the hakko line powered one works pretty good on small stuff.

Think of it like having two soldering irons I metcal for the little stuff
and a big old hexacon for the old stuff

Or if it's too noisy wear headphones

Re: Desoldering Iron, was Re: [TekScopes] 466-464 stray wire

EricJ
 

Well it's like the rest of us said, the noise doesn't bother us. I actually find it not bothersome at all. Additionally, I have used it a million times in the basement while the very young kids are sleeping in the room right above without waking them. It just isn't a problem to me. YMMV, and that's fine.
--Eric
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.

-------- Original message --------From: stefan_trethan <stefan_trethan@...> Date: 9/7/18 12:27 AM (GMT-06:00) To: TekScopes@groups.io Subject: Re: Desoldering Iron, was Re: [TekScopes] 466-464 stray wire
I already have a bunch of OK working desoldering stations.
What I was looking for is spending well more than what my car is worth
to upgrade them to something better.
My wishlist was a bit more thermal power, and a bit better quality so
the tips and heaters don't wear out as much, that's not asking much if
you are willing to spend 10 times the money.
This does _not_ mean I'm willing to accept severe trade-offs in other
areas, especially since I compare them to units that cost well under
$100 originally.

I just don't care if the Metcal works well, with that level of noise I
simply don't even need to unpack the power unit because I can never
use it.
It is obvious not only for me but everyone else I showed it to that
this level of noise is not only unacceptable but completely
unnecessary for function.

I think when I am willing to spend whatever is asked I am not paying
just for materials, I am also paying for engineering and I am paying
for the Metcal engineer to spend five minutes of his valueable time to
consider the noise level in his design and take simple steps to
mitigate it. That venturi generators need silencers is not a novel
concept, every pneumatics manufacturer that offers them (e.g. SMC) has
equipped his generators with integral silencers or appropriate
threaded exit ports and offers suitable silencers, not just a freaking
hole in a casting for the air to fart out.

While I am certain I can modify the guns to produce only a reasonable
amount of noise I just don't see why I should do that. It's fine that
I have to finish a $100 chinese Hakko knockoff myself, I expect that,
but if I pay top dollar I expect a finished product. (The Metcal gun
is now also made in China btw).

You guys are like "Yea sure you are test driving this BMW and they
forgot to put on an exhaust muffler, but who gives a damn if it rips
your eardrums out, it goes FAST, so just get over it and wear
headphones". This is _not_ _an_ _option_ for me. I'm just glad I
insisted on a demo unit instead of buying this thing outright.

ST



On Fri, Sep 7, 2018 at 6:17 AM Pete Lancashire <xyzzypdx@...> wrote:

When I use my DS-1 yeah it's loud but it works it sucks solder out of
places very few others will such as my old boat anchors.

If the noise is excessive to you how about getting a little low-cost cheapy
like the hakko line powered one works pretty good on small stuff.

Think of it like having two soldering irons I metcal for the little stuff
and a big old hexacon for the old stuff

Or if it's too noisy wear headphones

Re: TDS210, schematic and parts required.

David Kuhn
 

No schematics because Tek wants all the service business for themselves,
and like Germans, think that no one in the world is smart enough to
understand their designs in order to service them themselves.

One Tek, or other manufacturers, stop service repair support for a product,
they should release the schematics.

I would love to have the schematics for a Agilent 11723B. They were almost
going to send me copies with an NDA, but at last minute said they would
evaluate it for only $300. Then they would decide witch board to replace.
(Sigh)

Dave

On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 1:12 PM Graham Butcher <
graham.l.n.butcher@...> wrote:

Yes I did try there and thats where I downloaded the user and service
manuals but it has no schematics (in fact it has a request just below the
tag for the manuals requesting schematics to be uploaded) It also of course
does not provide any linkage or reference to spare parts unless I missed
something?

Graham



Re: Desoldering Iron, was Re: [TekScopes] 466-464 stray wire

stefan_trethan
 

I made a video showing the difference between the two desoldering stations:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ggDtwSi4CcJEzAP78

The Metcal does move a higher volume of air, 23 seconds to empty a
bag, compared to 30 seconds for the chinese station, but in terms of
blocked off pressure the chinese station is significantly better.

A rag and some foam rubber does cut down on the noise quite a bit, but
nowhere near the level of the chinese station.

Make up your own mind if you want to pay 10 times the money for this.
Thanks for your help.

ST


On Fri, Sep 7, 2018 at 9:07 AM EricJ via Groups.Io
<wyzkydd2358=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Well it's like the rest of us said, the noise doesn't bother us. I actually find it not bothersome at all. Additionally, I have used it a million times in the basement while the very young kids are sleeping in the room right above without waking them. It just isn't a problem to me. YMMV, and that's fine.
--Eric
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
-------- Original message --------From: stefan_trethan <stefan_trethan@...> Date: 9/7/18 12:27 AM (GMT-06:00) To: TekScopes@groups.io Subject: Re: Desoldering Iron, was Re: [TekScopes] 466-464 stray wire
I already have a bunch of OK working desoldering stations.
What I was looking for is spending well more than what my car is worth
to upgrade them to something better.
My wishlist was a bit more thermal power, and a bit better quality so
the tips and heaters don't wear out as much, that's not asking much if
you are willing to spend 10 times the money.
This does _not_ mean I'm willing to accept severe trade-offs in other
areas, especially since I compare them to units that cost well under
$100 originally.

I just don't care if the Metcal works well, with that level of noise I
simply don't even need to unpack the power unit because I can never
use it.
It is obvious not only for me but everyone else I showed it to that
this level of noise is not only unacceptable but completely
unnecessary for function.

I think when I am willing to spend whatever is asked I am not paying
just for materials, I am also paying for engineering and I am paying
for the Metcal engineer to spend five minutes of his valueable time to
consider the noise level in his design and take simple steps to
mitigate it. That venturi generators need silencers is not a novel
concept, every pneumatics manufacturer that offers them (e.g. SMC) has
equipped his generators with integral silencers or appropriate
threaded exit ports and offers suitable silencers, not just a freaking
hole in a casting for the air to fart out.

While I am certain I can modify the guns to produce only a reasonable
amount of noise I just don't see why I should do that. It's fine that
I have to finish a $100 chinese Hakko knockoff myself, I expect that,
but if I pay top dollar I expect a finished product. (The Metcal gun
is now also made in China btw).

You guys are like "Yea sure you are test driving this BMW and they
forgot to put on an exhaust muffler, but who gives a damn if it rips
your eardrums out, it goes FAST, so just get over it and wear
headphones". This is _not_ _an_ _option_ for me. I'm just glad I
insisted on a demo unit instead of buying this thing outright.

ST



On Fri, Sep 7, 2018 at 6:17 AM Pete Lancashire <xyzzypdx@...> wrote:

When I use my DS-1 yeah it's loud but it works it sucks solder out of
places very few others will such as my old boat anchors.

If the noise is excessive to you how about getting a little low-cost cheapy
like the hakko line powered one works pretty good on small stuff.

Think of it like having two soldering irons I metcal for the little stuff
and a big old hexacon for the old stuff

Or if it's too noisy wear headphones




Re: Desoldering Iron, was Re: [TekScopes] 466-464 stray wire

EricJ
 

Hi Stefan,
In terms of performance, I think the Metcal will win. The Chinese station might reach a higher blocked vacuum level but that's not what we desire when desoldering. The flow never stops when I desolder. What you want is an instant on, high volume suction so that the liquid solder is instantly pulled right out of the joint without having time to cool and solidify due to air flow cooling it off. I would bet that the heating performance of the Metcal will also outdo the Chinese station.
It's pretty clear from watching the gauge that the Metcal snaps the needle right to its maximum vacuum, while the Chinese one lazily builds vacuum but to a bit higher final level. I'll take the Metcal - just didn't buy mine new, so my price was probably closer to the Chinese one. Good luck with whatever you decide.
P.S. you might want to put some sound absorbent materials on your walls and/or floor. Like rugs or rubber mat for the floor and even posters or pictures on the wall. It looks as though that room is mostly bare and sounds like you have a LOT of reflective surfaces in there which really amplifies any noise level. No wonder it seems very loud to you.
--Eric
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.

-------- Original message --------From: stefan_trethan <stefan_trethan@...> Date: 9/7/18 9:32 AM (GMT-06:00) To: TekScopes@groups.io Subject: Re: Desoldering Iron, was Re: [TekScopes] 466-464 stray wire
I made a video showing the difference between the two desoldering stations:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ggDtwSi4CcJEzAP78

The Metcal does move a higher volume of air, 23 seconds to empty a
bag, compared to 30 seconds for the chinese station, but in terms of
blocked off pressure the chinese station is significantly better.

A rag and some foam rubber does cut down on the noise quite a bit, but
nowhere near the level of the chinese station.

Make up your own mind if you want to pay 10 times the money for this.
Thanks for your help.

ST


On Fri, Sep 7, 2018 at 9:07 AM EricJ via Groups.Io
<wyzkydd2358=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Well it's like the rest of us said, the noise doesn't bother us. I actually find it not bothersome at all. Additionally, I have used it a million times in the basement while the very young kids are sleeping in the room right above without waking them. It just isn't a problem to me. YMMV, and that's fine.
--Eric
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
-------- Original message --------From: stefan_trethan <stefan_trethan@...> Date: 9/7/18  12:27 AM  (GMT-06:00) To: TekScopes@groups.io Subject: Re: Desoldering Iron, was Re: [TekScopes] 466-464 stray wire
I already have a bunch of OK working desoldering stations.
What I was looking for is spending well more than what my car is worth
to upgrade them to something better.
My wishlist was a bit more thermal power, and a bit better quality so
the tips and heaters don't wear out as much, that's not asking much if
you are willing to spend 10 times the money.
This does _not_ mean I'm willing to accept severe trade-offs in other
areas, especially since I compare them to units that cost well under
$100 originally.

I just don't care if the Metcal works well, with that level of noise I
simply don't even need to unpack the power unit because I can never
use it.
It is obvious not only for me but everyone else I showed it to that
this level of noise is not only unacceptable but completely
unnecessary for function.

I think when I am willing to spend whatever is asked I am not paying
just for materials, I am also paying for engineering and I am paying
for the Metcal engineer to spend five minutes of his valueable time to
consider the noise level in his design and take simple steps to
mitigate it. That venturi generators need silencers is not a novel
concept, every pneumatics manufacturer that offers them (e.g. SMC) has
equipped his generators with integral silencers or appropriate
threaded exit ports and offers suitable silencers, not just a freaking
hole in a casting for the air to fart out.

While I am certain I can modify the guns to produce only a reasonable
amount of noise I just don't see why I should do that. It's fine that
I have to finish a $100 chinese Hakko knockoff myself, I expect that,
but if I pay top dollar I expect a finished product. (The Metcal gun
is now also made in China btw).

You guys are like "Yea sure you are test driving this BMW and they
forgot to put on an exhaust muffler, but who gives a damn if it rips
your eardrums out, it goes FAST, so just get over it and wear
headphones". This is _not_ _an_ _option_ for me. I'm just glad I
insisted on a demo unit instead of buying this thing outright.

ST



On Fri, Sep 7, 2018 at 6:17 AM Pete Lancashire <xyzzypdx@...> wrote:

When I use my DS-1 yeah it's loud but it works it sucks solder out of
places very few others will such as my old boat anchors.

If the noise is excessive to you how about getting a little low-cost cheapy
like the hakko line powered one works pretty good on small stuff.

Think of it like having two soldering irons I metcal for the little stuff
and a big old hexacon for the old stuff

Or if it's too noisy wear headphones




Re: Desoldering Iron, was Re: [TekScopes] 466-464 stray wire

stefan_trethan
 

I tried some desoldering (did unpack the power station after all ;-) )
and frankly I could see no improvement on the tricky transformer power
plane connections that were giving me trouble. If anything the chinese
one did remove the solder slightly better. Of course the Metcal feels
much more solid, no doubt about that.

The heating power of the Metcal might be there (it heats up faster,
since it has a lot less thermal mass), but I think the bottleneck is
the tip-pad connection and the fairly narrow tube that forms the tip.
The power display on the Metcal did not tick up more than one or at
most two percent when I touched it to that plane, indicating that the
heater did not even see the demand. The thermal design on the chinese
one also sucks, but at least there I can nudge up the temperature to
compensate.

As for the room, it's a large space about 24m by 18m and 2+ stories
high with arched concrete ceilings. A few posters are not going to cut
it ;-). I will put in a nice thick shagpile carpet for next year's
budget, but I fear the request will be declined in view of the ESD
floor...

ST


On Fri, Sep 7, 2018 at 4:50 PM EricJ via Groups.Io
<wyzkydd2358=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Hi Stefan,
In terms of performance, I think the Metcal will win. The Chinese station might reach a higher blocked vacuum level but that's not what we desire when desoldering. The flow never stops when I desolder. What you want is an instant on, high volume suction so that the liquid solder is instantly pulled right out of the joint without having time to cool and solidify due to air flow cooling it off. I would bet that the heating performance of the Metcal will also outdo the Chinese station.
It's pretty clear from watching the gauge that the Metcal snaps the needle right to its maximum vacuum, while the Chinese one lazily builds vacuum but to a bit higher final level. I'll take the Metcal - just didn't buy mine new, so my price was probably closer to the Chinese one. Good luck with whatever you decide.
P.S. you might want to put some sound absorbent materials on your walls and/or floor. Like rugs or rubber mat for the floor and even posters or pictures on the wall. It looks as though that room is mostly bare and sounds like you have a LOT of reflective surfaces in there which really amplifies any noise level. No wonder it seems very loud to you.
--Eric
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
-------- Original message --------From: stefan_trethan <stefan_trethan@...> Date: 9/7/18 9:32 AM (GMT-06:00) To: TekScopes@groups.io Subject: Re: Desoldering Iron, was Re: [TekScopes] 466-464 stray wire
I made a video showing the difference between the two desoldering stations:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ggDtwSi4CcJEzAP78

The Metcal does move a higher volume of air, 23 seconds to empty a
bag, compared to 30 seconds for the chinese station, but in terms of
blocked off pressure the chinese station is significantly better.

A rag and some foam rubber does cut down on the noise quite a bit, but
nowhere near the level of the chinese station.

Make up your own mind if you want to pay 10 times the money for this.
Thanks for your help.

ST


On Fri, Sep 7, 2018 at 9:07 AM EricJ via Groups.Io
<wyzkydd2358=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Well it's like the rest of us said, the noise doesn't bother us. I actually find it not bothersome at all. Additionally, I have used it a million times in the basement while the very young kids are sleeping in the room right above without waking them. It just isn't a problem to me. YMMV, and that's fine.
--Eric
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
-------- Original message --------From: stefan_trethan <stefan_trethan@...> Date: 9/7/18 12:27 AM (GMT-06:00) To: TekScopes@groups.io Subject: Re: Desoldering Iron, was Re: [TekScopes] 466-464 stray wire
I already have a bunch of OK working desoldering stations.
What I was looking for is spending well more than what my car is worth
to upgrade them to something better.
My wishlist was a bit more thermal power, and a bit better quality so
the tips and heaters don't wear out as much, that's not asking much if
you are willing to spend 10 times the money.
This does _not_ mean I'm willing to accept severe trade-offs in other
areas, especially since I compare them to units that cost well under
$100 originally.

I just don't care if the Metcal works well, with that level of noise I
simply don't even need to unpack the power unit because I can never
use it.
It is obvious not only for me but everyone else I showed it to that
this level of noise is not only unacceptable but completely
unnecessary for function.

I think when I am willing to spend whatever is asked I am not paying
just for materials, I am also paying for engineering and I am paying
for the Metcal engineer to spend five minutes of his valueable time to
consider the noise level in his design and take simple steps to
mitigate it. That venturi generators need silencers is not a novel
concept, every pneumatics manufacturer that offers them (e.g. SMC) has
equipped his generators with integral silencers or appropriate
threaded exit ports and offers suitable silencers, not just a freaking
hole in a casting for the air to fart out.

While I am certain I can modify the guns to produce only a reasonable
amount of noise I just don't see why I should do that. It's fine that
I have to finish a $100 chinese Hakko knockoff myself, I expect that,
but if I pay top dollar I expect a finished product. (The Metcal gun
is now also made in China btw).

You guys are like "Yea sure you are test driving this BMW and they
forgot to put on an exhaust muffler, but who gives a damn if it rips
your eardrums out, it goes FAST, so just get over it and wear
headphones". This is _not_ _an_ _option_ for me. I'm just glad I
insisted on a demo unit instead of buying this thing outright.

ST



On Fri, Sep 7, 2018 at 6:17 AM Pete Lancashire <xyzzypdx@...> wrote:

When I use my DS-1 yeah it's loud but it works it sucks solder out of
places very few others will such as my old boat anchors.

If the noise is excessive to you how about getting a little low-cost cheapy
like the hakko line powered one works pretty good on small stuff.

Think of it like having two soldering irons I metcal for the little stuff
and a big old hexacon for the old stuff

Or if it's too noisy wear headphones








Re: Desoldering Iron, was Re: [TekScopes] 466-464 stray wire

Chuck Harris
 

I am puzzling over why you guys are so focused
on vacuum pumps. The pump is trivial.

What you really want to concentrate on is a vacuum
accumulator, and a quick acting solenoid valve.

Bring the vacuum accumulator up to the pump's maximum
vacuum and maintain it there. Open the solenoid valve
whenever you press the solder extractor's trigger.

The next part of the equation is to use the largest
diameter hoses that are consistent with the solenoid
valves flow rate.

-Chuck Harris

EricJ via Groups.Io wrote:

Hi Stefan,
In terms of performance, I think the Metcal will win. The Chinese station might reach a higher blocked vacuum level but that's not what we desire when desoldering. The flow never stops when I desolder. What you want is an instant on, high volume suction so that the liquid solder is instantly pulled right out of the joint without having time to cool and solidify due to air flow cooling it off. I would bet that the heating performance of the Metcal will also outdo the Chinese station.
It's pretty clear from watching the gauge that the Metcal snaps the needle right to its maximum vacuum, while the Chinese one lazily builds vacuum but to a bit higher final level. I'll take the Metcal - just didn't buy mine new, so my price was probably closer to the Chinese one. Good luck with whatever you decide.
P.S. you might want to put some sound absorbent materials on your walls and/or floor. Like rugs or rubber mat for the floor and even posters or pictures on the wall. It looks as though that room is mostly bare and sounds like you have a LOT of reflective surfaces in there which really amplifies any noise level. No wonder it seems very loud to you.
--Eric
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
-------- Original message --------From: stefan_trethan <stefan_trethan@...> Date: 9/7/18 9:32 AM (GMT-06:00) To: TekScopes@groups.io Subject: Re: Desoldering Iron, was Re: [TekScopes] 466-464 stray wire
I made a video showing the difference between the two desoldering stations:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ggDtwSi4CcJEzAP78

The Metcal does move a higher volume of air, 23 seconds to empty a
bag, compared to 30 seconds for the chinese station, but in terms of
blocked off pressure the chinese station is significantly better.

A rag and some foam rubber does cut down on the noise quite a bit, but
nowhere near the level of the chinese station.

Make up your own mind if you want to pay 10 times the money for this.
Thanks for your help.

ST


On Fri, Sep 7, 2018 at 9:07 AM EricJ via Groups.Io
<wyzkydd2358=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Well it's like the rest of us said, the noise doesn't bother us. I actually find it not bothersome at all. Additionally, I have used it a million times in the basement while the very young kids are sleeping in the room right above without waking them. It just isn't a problem to me. YMMV, and that's fine.
--Eric
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
-------- Original message --------From: stefan_trethan <stefan_trethan@...> Date: 9/7/18 12:27 AM (GMT-06:00) To: TekScopes@groups.io Subject: Re: Desoldering Iron, was Re: [TekScopes] 466-464 stray wire
I already have a bunch of OK working desoldering stations.
What I was looking for is spending well more than what my car is worth
to upgrade them to something better.
My wishlist was a bit more thermal power, and a bit better quality so
the tips and heaters don't wear out as much, that's not asking much if
you are willing to spend 10 times the money.
This does _not_ mean I'm willing to accept severe trade-offs in other
areas, especially since I compare them to units that cost well under
$100 originally.

I just don't care if the Metcal works well, with that level of noise I
simply don't even need to unpack the power unit because I can never
use it.
It is obvious not only for me but everyone else I showed it to that
this level of noise is not only unacceptable but completely
unnecessary for function.

I think when I am willing to spend whatever is asked I am not paying
just for materials, I am also paying for engineering and I am paying
for the Metcal engineer to spend five minutes of his valueable time to
consider the noise level in his design and take simple steps to
mitigate it. That venturi generators need silencers is not a novel
concept, every pneumatics manufacturer that offers them (e.g. SMC) has
equipped his generators with integral silencers or appropriate
threaded exit ports and offers suitable silencers, not just a freaking
hole in a casting for the air to fart out.

While I am certain I can modify the guns to produce only a reasonable
amount of noise I just don't see why I should do that. It's fine that
I have to finish a $100 chinese Hakko knockoff myself, I expect that,
but if I pay top dollar I expect a finished product. (The Metcal gun
is now also made in China btw).

You guys are like "Yea sure you are test driving this BMW and they
forgot to put on an exhaust muffler, but who gives a damn if it rips
your eardrums out, it goes FAST, so just get over it and wear
headphones". This is _not_ _an_ _option_ for me. I'm just glad I
insisted on a demo unit instead of buying this thing outright.

ST



On Fri, Sep 7, 2018 at 6:17 AM Pete Lancashire <xyzzypdx@...> wrote:

When I use my DS-1 yeah it's loud but it works it sucks solder out of
places very few others will such as my old boat anchors.

If the noise is excessive to you how about getting a little low-cost cheapy
like the hakko line powered one works pretty good on small stuff.

Think of it like having two soldering irons I metcal for the little stuff
and a big old hexacon for the old stuff

Or if it's too noisy wear headphones








Re: Desoldering Iron, was Re: [TekScopes] 466-464 stray wire

EricJ
 

Hi Chuck, 
These desoldering irons use a venturi and compressed air to generate vacuum. They are instantly on at full volume flow as soon as the trigger is pulled. I agree with you that the pump setups are not that great.
--Eric
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.

-------- Original message --------From: Chuck Harris <cfharris@...> Date: 9/7/18 10:51 AM (GMT-06:00) To: TekScopes@groups.io Subject: Re: Desoldering Iron, was Re: [TekScopes] 466-464 stray wire
I am puzzling over why you guys are so focused
on vacuum pumps.  The pump is trivial.

What you really want to concentrate on is a vacuum
accumulator, and a quick acting solenoid valve.

Bring the vacuum accumulator up to the pump's maximum
vacuum and maintain it there.  Open the solenoid valve
whenever you press the solder extractor's trigger.

The next part of the equation is to use the largest
diameter hoses that are consistent with the solenoid
valves flow rate.

-Chuck Harris

EricJ via Groups.Io wrote:
Hi Stefan,
In terms of performance, I think the Metcal will win. The Chinese station might reach a higher blocked vacuum level but that's not what we desire when desoldering. The flow never stops when I desolder. What you want is an instant on, high volume suction so that the liquid solder is instantly pulled right out of the joint without having time to cool and solidify due to air flow cooling it off. I would bet that the heating performance of the Metcal will also outdo the Chinese station.
It's pretty clear from watching the gauge that the Metcal snaps the needle right to its maximum vacuum, while the Chinese one lazily builds vacuum but to a bit higher final level. I'll take the Metcal - just didn't buy mine new, so my price was probably closer to the Chinese one. Good luck with whatever you decide.
P.S. you might want to put some sound absorbent materials on your walls and/or floor. Like rugs or rubber mat for the floor and even posters or pictures on the wall. It looks as though that room is mostly bare and sounds like you have a LOT of reflective surfaces in there which really amplifies any noise level. No wonder it seems very loud to you.
--Eric
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
-------- Original message --------From: stefan_trethan <stefan_trethan@...> Date: 9/7/18  9:32 AM  (GMT-06:00) To: TekScopes@groups.io Subject: Re: Desoldering Iron, was Re: [TekScopes] 466-464 stray wire
I made a video showing the difference between the two desoldering stations:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ggDtwSi4CcJEzAP78

The Metcal does move a higher volume of air, 23 seconds to empty a
bag, compared to 30 seconds for the chinese station, but in terms of
blocked off pressure the chinese station is significantly better.

A rag and some foam rubber does cut down on the noise quite a bit, but
nowhere near the level of the chinese station.

Make up your own mind if you want to pay 10 times the money for this.
Thanks for your help.

ST


On Fri, Sep 7, 2018 at 9:07 AM EricJ via Groups.Io
<wyzkydd2358=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Well it's like the rest of us said, the noise doesn't bother us. I actually find it not bothersome at all. Additionally, I have used it a million times in the basement while the very young kids are sleeping in the room right above without waking them. It just isn't a problem to me. YMMV, and that's fine.
--Eric
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
-------- Original message --------From: stefan_trethan <stefan_trethan@...> Date: 9/7/18  12:27 AM  (GMT-06:00) To: TekScopes@groups.io Subject: Re: Desoldering Iron, was Re: [TekScopes] 466-464 stray wire
I already have a bunch of OK working desoldering stations.
What I was looking for is spending well more than what my car is worth
to upgrade them to something better.
My wishlist was a bit more thermal power, and a bit better quality so
the tips and heaters don't wear out as much, that's not asking much if
you are willing to spend 10 times the money.
This does _not_ mean I'm willing to accept severe trade-offs in other
areas, especially since I compare them to units that cost well under
$100 originally.

I just don't care if the Metcal works well, with that level of noise I
simply don't even need to unpack the power unit because I can never
use it.
It is obvious not only for me but everyone else I showed it to that
this level of noise is not only unacceptable but completely
unnecessary for function.

I think when I am willing to spend whatever is asked I am not paying
just for materials, I am also paying for engineering and I am paying
for the Metcal engineer to spend five minutes of his valueable time to
consider the noise level in his design and take simple steps to
mitigate it. That venturi generators need silencers is not a novel
concept, every pneumatics manufacturer that offers them (e.g. SMC) has
equipped his generators with integral silencers or appropriate
threaded exit ports and offers suitable silencers, not just a freaking
hole in a casting for the air to fart out.

While I am certain I can modify the guns to produce only a reasonable
amount of noise I just don't see why I should do that. It's fine that
I have to finish a $100 chinese Hakko knockoff myself, I expect that,
but if I pay top dollar I expect a finished product. (The Metcal gun
is now also made in China btw).

You guys are like "Yea sure you are test driving this BMW and they
forgot to put on an exhaust muffler, but who gives a damn if it rips
your eardrums out, it goes FAST, so just get over it and wear
headphones". This is _not_ _an_ _option_ for me. I'm just glad I
insisted on a demo unit instead of buying this thing outright.

ST



On Fri, Sep 7, 2018 at 6:17 AM Pete Lancashire <xyzzypdx@...> wrote:

When I use my DS-1 yeah it's loud but it works it sucks solder out of
places very few others will such as my old boat anchors.

If the noise is excessive to you how about getting a little low-cost cheapy
like the hakko line powered one works pretty good on small stuff.

Think of it like having two soldering irons I metcal for the little stuff
and a big old hexacon for the old stuff

Or if it's too noisy wear headphones








Re: Desoldering Iron, was Re: [TekScopes] 466-464 stray wire

EricJ
 

Hi Stefan,
It sounds like you need the next higher temp tip for the Metcal. I'm surprised they didn't send you a variety with your demo unit. There are several sizes, shapes and heat levels available. I know you already know this, but you did apply some solder to the tip to help with heat transfer before attempting to desolder the demanding transformer joint, right? If the power indicator is telling you it's not using much power you can't be getting much heat transfer. I always add solder to the tip on the tough joints.
I think I would prioritize that dampening at least for the walls - sounds like you are in an echo chamber! 
: )
--Eric
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.

-------- Original message --------From: stefan_trethan <stefan_trethan@...> Date: 9/7/18 10:14 AM (GMT-06:00) To: TekScopes@groups.io Subject: Re: Desoldering Iron, was Re: [TekScopes] 466-464 stray wire
I tried some desoldering (did unpack the power station after all ;-) )
and frankly I could see no improvement on the tricky transformer power
plane connections that were giving me trouble. If anything the chinese
one did remove the solder slightly better. Of course the Metcal feels
much more solid, no doubt about that.

The heating power of the Metcal might be there (it heats up faster,
since it has a lot less thermal mass), but I think the bottleneck is
the tip-pad connection and the fairly narrow tube that forms the tip.
The power display on the Metcal did not tick up more than one or at
most two percent when I touched it to that plane, indicating that the
heater did not even see the demand. The thermal design on the chinese
one also sucks, but at least there I can nudge up the temperature to
compensate.

As for the room, it's a large space about 24m by 18m and 2+ stories
high with arched concrete ceilings. A few posters are not going to cut
it ;-). I will put in a nice thick shagpile carpet for next year's
budget, but I fear the request will be declined in view of the ESD
floor...

ST


On Fri, Sep 7, 2018 at 4:50 PM EricJ via Groups.Io
<wyzkydd2358=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Hi Stefan,
In terms of performance, I think the Metcal will win. The Chinese station might reach a higher blocked vacuum level but that's not what we desire when desoldering. The flow never stops when I desolder. What you want is an instant on, high volume suction so that the liquid solder is instantly pulled right out of the joint without having time to cool and solidify due to air flow cooling it off. I would bet that the heating performance of the Metcal will also outdo the Chinese station.
It's pretty clear from watching the gauge that the Metcal snaps the needle right to its maximum vacuum, while the Chinese one lazily builds vacuum but to a bit higher final level. I'll take the Metcal - just didn't buy mine new, so my price was probably closer to the Chinese one. Good luck with whatever you decide.
P.S. you might want to put some sound absorbent materials on your walls and/or floor. Like rugs or rubber mat for the floor and even posters or pictures on the wall. It looks as though that room is mostly bare and sounds like you have a LOT of reflective surfaces in there which really amplifies any noise level. No wonder it seems very loud to you.
--Eric
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
-------- Original message --------From: stefan_trethan <stefan_trethan@...> Date: 9/7/18  9:32 AM  (GMT-06:00) To: TekScopes@groups.io Subject: Re: Desoldering Iron, was Re: [TekScopes] 466-464 stray wire
I made a video showing the difference between the two desoldering stations:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ggDtwSi4CcJEzAP78

The Metcal does move a higher volume of air, 23 seconds to empty a
bag, compared to 30 seconds for the chinese station, but in terms of
blocked off pressure the chinese station is significantly better.

A rag and some foam rubber does cut down on the noise quite a bit, but
nowhere near the level of the chinese station.

Make up your own mind if you want to pay 10 times the money for this.
Thanks for your help.

ST


On Fri, Sep 7, 2018 at 9:07 AM EricJ via Groups.Io
<wyzkydd2358=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Well it's like the rest of us said, the noise doesn't bother us. I actually find it not bothersome at all. Additionally, I have used it a million times in the basement while the very young kids are sleeping in the room right above without waking them. It just isn't a problem to me. YMMV, and that's fine.
--Eric
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
-------- Original message --------From: stefan_trethan <stefan_trethan@...> Date: 9/7/18  12:27 AM  (GMT-06:00) To: TekScopes@groups.io Subject: Re: Desoldering Iron, was Re: [TekScopes] 466-464 stray wire
I already have a bunch of OK working desoldering stations.
What I was looking for is spending well more than what my car is worth
to upgrade them to something better.
My wishlist was a bit more thermal power, and a bit better quality so
the tips and heaters don't wear out as much, that's not asking much if
you are willing to spend 10 times the money.
This does _not_ mean I'm willing to accept severe trade-offs in other
areas, especially since I compare them to units that cost well under
$100 originally.

I just don't care if the Metcal works well, with that level of noise I
simply don't even need to unpack the power unit because I can never
use it.
It is obvious not only for me but everyone else I showed it to that
this level of noise is not only unacceptable but completely
unnecessary for function.

I think when I am willing to spend whatever is asked I am not paying
just for materials, I am also paying for engineering and I am paying
for the Metcal engineer to spend five minutes of his valueable time to
consider the noise level in his design and take simple steps to
mitigate it. That venturi generators need silencers is not a novel
concept, every pneumatics manufacturer that offers them (e.g. SMC) has
equipped his generators with integral silencers or appropriate
threaded exit ports and offers suitable silencers, not just a freaking
hole in a casting for the air to fart out.

While I am certain I can modify the guns to produce only a reasonable
amount of noise I just don't see why I should do that. It's fine that
I have to finish a $100 chinese Hakko knockoff myself, I expect that,
but if I pay top dollar I expect a finished product. (The Metcal gun
is now also made in China btw).

You guys are like "Yea sure you are test driving this BMW and they
forgot to put on an exhaust muffler, but who gives a damn if it rips
your eardrums out, it goes FAST, so just get over it and wear
headphones". This is _not_ _an_ _option_ for me. I'm just glad I
insisted on a demo unit instead of buying this thing outright.

ST



On Fri, Sep 7, 2018 at 6:17 AM Pete Lancashire <xyzzypdx@...> wrote:

When I use my DS-1 yeah it's loud but it works it sucks solder out of
places very few others will such as my old boat anchors.

If the noise is excessive to you how about getting a little low-cost cheapy
like the hakko line powered one works pretty good on small stuff.

Think of it like having two soldering irons I metcal for the little stuff
and a big old hexacon for the old stuff

Or if it's too noisy wear headphones








Re: Desoldering Iron, was Re: [TekScopes] 466-464 stray wire

stefan_trethan
 

Yea that's another way.
The pump isn't really the problem, it works fine on the chinese station,
just in the Metcal they forgot the muffler.

The guys who construct the automated production machines were also
astonished by the noise, saying they put silencers on every exhaust port.

I don't think the Metcal compressed air valve will work for vacuum. Sure
you could fit a microswitch instead but then you are back to fixing a new
$1k piece of kit...

ST

On Fri, 7 Sep 2018, 17:51 Chuck Harris, <cfharris@...> wrote:

I am puzzling over why you guys are so focused
on vacuum pumps. The pump is trivial.

What you really want to concentrate on is a vacuum
accumulator, and a quick acting solenoid valve.

Bring the vacuum accumulator up to the pump's maximum
vacuum and maintain it there. Open the solenoid valve
whenever you press the solder extractor's trigger.

The next part of the equation is to use the largest
diameter hoses that are consistent with the solenoid
valves flow rate.

-Chuck Harris

EricJ via Groups.Io wrote:
Hi Stefan,
In terms of performance, I think the Metcal will win. The Chinese
station might reach a higher blocked vacuum level but that's not what we
desire when desoldering. The flow never stops when I desolder. What you
want is an instant on, high volume suction so that the liquid solder is
instantly pulled right out of the joint without having time to cool and
solidify due to air flow cooling it off. I would bet that the heating
performance of the Metcal will also outdo the Chinese station.
It's pretty clear from watching the gauge that the Metcal snaps the
needle right to its maximum vacuum, while the Chinese one lazily builds
vacuum but to a bit higher final level. I'll take the Metcal - just didn't
buy mine new, so my price was probably closer to the Chinese one. Good luck
with whatever you decide.
P.S. you might want to put some sound absorbent materials on your walls
and/or floor. Like rugs or rubber mat for the floor and even posters or
pictures on the wall. It looks as though that room is mostly bare and
sounds like you have a LOT of reflective surfaces in there which really
amplifies any noise level. No wonder it seems very loud to you.
--Eric
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
-------- Original message --------From: stefan_trethan <
stefan_trethan@...> Date: 9/7/18 9:32 AM (GMT-06:00) To:
TekScopes@groups.io Subject: Re: Desoldering Iron, was Re: [TekScopes]
466-464 stray wire
I made a video showing the difference between the two desoldering
stations:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ggDtwSi4CcJEzAP78

The Metcal does move a higher volume of air, 23 seconds to empty a
bag, compared to 30 seconds for the chinese station, but in terms of
blocked off pressure the chinese station is significantly better.

A rag and some foam rubber does cut down on the noise quite a bit, but
nowhere near the level of the chinese station.

Make up your own mind if you want to pay 10 times the money for this.
Thanks for your help.

ST


On Fri, Sep 7, 2018 at 9:07 AM EricJ via Groups.Io
<wyzkydd2358=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Well it's like the rest of us said, the noise doesn't bother us. I
actually find it not bothersome at all. Additionally, I have used it a
million times in the basement while the very young kids are sleeping in the
room right above without waking them. It just isn't a problem to me. YMMV,
and that's fine.
--Eric
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
-------- Original message --------From: stefan_trethan <
stefan_trethan@...> Date: 9/7/18 12:27 AM (GMT-06:00) To:
TekScopes@groups.io Subject: Re: Desoldering Iron, was Re: [TekScopes]
466-464 stray wire
I already have a bunch of OK working desoldering stations.
What I was looking for is spending well more than what my car is worth
to upgrade them to something better.
My wishlist was a bit more thermal power, and a bit better quality so
the tips and heaters don't wear out as much, that's not asking much if
you are willing to spend 10 times the money.
This does _not_ mean I'm willing to accept severe trade-offs in other
areas, especially since I compare them to units that cost well under
$100 originally.

I just don't care if the Metcal works well, with that level of noise I
simply don't even need to unpack the power unit because I can never
use it.
It is obvious not only for me but everyone else I showed it to that
this level of noise is not only unacceptable but completely
unnecessary for function.

I think when I am willing to spend whatever is asked I am not paying
just for materials, I am also paying for engineering and I am paying
for the Metcal engineer to spend five minutes of his valueable time to
consider the noise level in his design and take simple steps to
mitigate it. That venturi generators need silencers is not a novel
concept, every pneumatics manufacturer that offers them (e.g. SMC) has
equipped his generators with integral silencers or appropriate
threaded exit ports and offers suitable silencers, not just a freaking
hole in a casting for the air to fart out.

While I am certain I can modify the guns to produce only a reasonable
amount of noise I just don't see why I should do that. It's fine that
I have to finish a $100 chinese Hakko knockoff myself, I expect that,
but if I pay top dollar I expect a finished product. (The Metcal gun
is now also made in China btw).

You guys are like "Yea sure you are test driving this BMW and they
forgot to put on an exhaust muffler, but who gives a damn if it rips
your eardrums out, it goes FAST, so just get over it and wear
headphones". This is _not_ _an_ _option_ for me. I'm just glad I
insisted on a demo unit instead of buying this thing outright.

ST



On Fri, Sep 7, 2018 at 6:17 AM Pete Lancashire <xyzzypdx@...>
wrote:

When I use my DS-1 yeah it's loud but it works it sucks solder out of
places very few others will such as my old boat anchors.

If the noise is excessive to you how about getting a little low-cost
cheapy
like the hakko line powered one works pretty good on small stuff.

Think of it like having two soldering irons I metcal for the little
stuff
and a big old hexacon for the old stuff

Or if it's too noisy wear headphones










Strange Probe ...

Mike Harmon
 

I have a very strange scope probe that I can't find any documentation for.

tt's a P6033 probe, the old style with the gray barrel and the threads for attaching the witch hat. The cable has a GR-874 connector for connection to the scope.
Information printed on the barrel is as follows: P6033, Trigger Probe, 010-099, 10X, 1.2 k ohm, 2pf. I have exhausted my resources looking for information on
this probe (old catalogs, Google searches, etc.). Everything I've seen skips right over the P6033. Now, I'm REALLY determined to find out what I have!

Can someone tell me what this thing is? What was it used for? What scope (or plugin) was it designed to be used with?

I don't really need it for anything. I was thinking, since I have several pieces of GR equipment, maybe I could re-purpose it into something I could use.

Please let me know if you can enlighten me on this thing!
Thanks!
Mike Harmon, WB0LDJ
mharmon at att dot net