Date   

Re: A6302/6303 current probe Amphenol 165 connector

cmjones01
 

On Mon, May 4, 2020 at 2:27 PM Albert Otten <aodiversen@...> wrote:

Chris,

Also remember that during assembly you have to aim carefully at proper alignment of the slot positions at the pin part and inside the body. Also try to press the pin part in as perpendicular as possible to the axis. IIRC a problem is that the part first passes a narrow O-ring and then can't be rotated in the proper slot position. When I made the "tool" I could use the same pipe to press in the pin part because I soldered the BNC connector afterwards to the cable. That won't go in your situation with the probe connected at the cable.
I cheated and removed the o-rings in the end. I have no requirement
for environmental sealing for this connector, and nothing around it is
sealed, so I decided they were just going to make assembly more
difficult and risky. With a little talcum powder on the strain relief
sleeve it all went together OK.

I now have a probe which zeroes properly but still doesn't work quite
right, but that's another story...

Chris


Re: Which type of transistor is SG503 Q190 151-0614-00?

Chuck Harris
 

Ok.

There are lots of darlington monolithic microwave amplifiers,
I guess we shouldn't be surprised that tektronix was an early
adopter.

I gotta stop replying to threads where I haven't been following
carefully.

-Chuck Harris

Albert Otten wrote:

Hi Chuck,

For E2 the drop Vbe *is* twice a junction drop, about 1.5 V.
The only difference with the usual Darlingtons is that here the internal emitter-base joint has a lead to the outside, with label E1.

Albert

On Mon, May 4, 2020 at 10:17 PM, Chuck Harris wrote:


I think Albert has a misunderstanding about what you should
measure emitter to base in the case of a silicon darlington
transistor.

Darlingtons have two base-emitter junctions in series from the
two transistors.

Each normal transistor will show between 0.6 and 0.7V at the
currents that put the transistor in its linear region, so for
a darlington you would expect the Vbe to be double that, for
1.2 to 1.4Vbe

The emitter on these transistors is connected to a lead frame
bar that goes out each side of the transistor to give a doubly
connected emitter. The collector is connected to the heatsink
stud, and one of the other two terminals. With the base making
up the last terminal.

-Chuck Harris



Re: Which type of transistor is SG503 Q190 151-0614-00?

Albert Otten
 

Hi Ed,

Sorry I didn't read this message before I commented your other.
So at least somewhere that Darlington structure has been mentioned.

Albert

On Mon, May 4, 2020 at 08:28 PM, Ed Breya wrote:


Well, this keeps getting curiouser and curiouser. The other day I did some
searching on the 2N5947 (apparently the original Q190), and found no data, but
it seems to have been pretty common in the 1970s. I did find an old patent
with the 2N5947 in its text, and with this interesting abstract:

"A high powered transistor amplifier for use in broadband VHF circuits which
utilizes a pair of transistors connected in a Darlington configuration with
separate emitter resistors. The component values of the emitter resistors and
the feedback resistor being such as to provide constant impedance operating
conditions together with good linearity."
----


Re: Which type of transistor is SG503 Q190 151-0614-00?

Albert Otten
 

Hi Chuck,

For E2 the drop Vbe *is* twice a junction drop, about 1.5 V.
The only difference with the usual Darlingtons is that here the internal emitter-base joint has a lead to the outside, with label E1.

Albert

On Mon, May 4, 2020 at 10:17 PM, Chuck Harris wrote:


I think Albert has a misunderstanding about what you should
measure emitter to base in the case of a silicon darlington
transistor.

Darlingtons have two base-emitter junctions in series from the
two transistors.

Each normal transistor will show between 0.6 and 0.7V at the
currents that put the transistor in its linear region, so for
a darlington you would expect the Vbe to be double that, for
1.2 to 1.4Vbe

The emitter on these transistors is connected to a lead frame
bar that goes out each side of the transistor to give a doubly
connected emitter. The collector is connected to the heatsink
stud, and one of the other two terminals. With the base making
up the last terminal.

-Chuck Harris


Re: Which type of transistor is SG503 Q190 151-0614-00?

Albert Otten
 

Please remember, Ed and others, that the 151-0614-00 was the successor of the type(s) you are discussing. It seems that this new type was produced solely by Tektronix and that nowhere any mention of an equivalent type is made. In the RPR_151 document there is no mention of another mfg while for the earlier 151-0474-00 Motorola is mentioned as mfg with type MRF511. In the cross reference document 2N5947 is mentioned as equivalent for the -0474- but not for the -0614-.

I did start with in circuit measurements using the 576 in DC, similar to what I called the first situation. That way I measure the sum of current via the emitter resistor and current via the emitter. This showed the faster than linear increase of current with voltage after the transistor began to conduct. For more convenience I then switched the 576 to Normal mode. This didn't work well since weird looping (or perhaps some oscillation) occurred for one of the emitters. In my last setup I monitored the voltage drop in L197 with a scope because that might show oscillations, if any.
The question is not of such interest that I would unsolder Q190 leads.
Please also remember that the 0.7 V steps were found in 3 tested SG503s, simply with DMM measurement during normal operation.

Albert

On Mon, May 4, 2020 at 09:40 PM, Ed Breya wrote:


Well, there you go Albert. Jacques has the right info, and every other data
seem to confirm it's a regular RF power transistor, regardless of how many
emitter connections it has. So, if you're still getting measurements that look
Darlingtony, then there's something different about your Q190s, or an unknown
missing detail in the test method.

You should be able to tell for sure with a curve tracer, or more work with
your temporary test hookups, with the Q disconnected from the normal
circuitry.

Ed


Re: Which type of transistor is SG503 Q190 151-0614-00?

Chuck Harris
 

I think Albert has a misunderstanding about what you should
measure emitter to base in the case of a silicon darlington
transistor.

Darlingtons have two base-emitter junctions in series from the
two transistors.

Each normal transistor will show between 0.6 and 0.7V at the
currents that put the transistor in its linear region, so for
a darlington you would expect the Vbe to be double that, for
1.2 to 1.4Vbe

The emitter on these transistors is connected to a lead frame
bar that goes out each side of the transistor to give a doubly
connected emitter. The collector is connected to the heatsink
stud, and one of the other two terminals. With the base making
up the last terminal.

-Chuck Harris

Ed Breya via groups.io wrote:

Oops - I do remember seeing that datasheet, but it has no detailed info about having separate emitters. The test circuits shown have only one emitter connection. I got the 2N5947 part number right off the SG503 schematic, which has a drawing of the transistor showing the pinout, including E1 and E2.

Ed




Re: Question re: capacitor in Tek 181

Stephen Hanselman
 

A sure sign of too many layers of bureaucracy
Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: TekScopes@groups.io <TekScopes@groups.io> On Behalf Of Dave Wise
Sent: Monday, May 4, 2020 11:52 AM
To: TekScopes@groups.io
Subject: Re: [TekScopes] Question re: capacitor in Tek 181

Part of the schooling for junior engineers at Tek was strong encouragement
to use the Common Design Parts Catalogs. I think I was told it cost $10000
of overhead to add a new part, so if you asked for one, you'd better be
ready to prove that nothing there would do.

Dave Wise
Information Display Division, 1980-1995
________________________________________
From: TekScopes@groups.io <TekScopes@groups.io> on behalf of Brad Thompson
via groups.io <brad.thompsonaa1ip=gmail.com@groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, May 02, 2020 4:25 PM
To: TekScopes@groups.io
Subject: Re: [TekScopes] Question re: capacitor in Tek 181

Ernesto wrote on 5/2/2020 3:35 PM:

Hi Brad,

Another question is why C401, which has identical description as C430 and
C431, (2x20uF, 450V, -10%, +50%), has a different part number.

Hello, Ernesto--

C401A and C401B are listed as 2X20 uF, p/n 290-036.
C430 is listed as (2X20 uF), p/n 290-037 C431A and C431B are listed as 2x 20
uF, p/n 290-037

In the schematic, C430 appears as a single 40 uF capacitor-- it's connected
in parallel with C431A 20 uF.
Showing C430 as C430A and C430B (20 uF each) connected in parallel would
clarify matters.

As for C401 and C431 having two different part numbers, perhaps C431 gets
prepped with an insulating cover (since its can floats at -150 volts with
respect to the chassis) and hence deserves its own part number?

Maybe the Tek engineer was also a unique artist, like Leonardo Da Vinci,
and wanted other engineers to stand in admiration in front of his designs
asking themselves questions, like the public standing in front of the Mona
Lisa ask themselves "why is she smiling?".

From an engineering viewpoint, The "Mona Lisa" could have been painted on a
smaller canvas for more efficient use of materials.<g> (Ear protection in
place to muffle outraged howls emanating from artaficionados).

My personal take on this is that if we wonder why some piece of equipment
seems over designed or under designed, or over specified or under specified,
we should not assume that there was some esoteric reason in the superior
mind of the designer, but take it as some mundane oversight. And we are
free to follow that detail or not. (stated by a former designer).
Or as someone suggested, perhaps there were leftover 6.25 uF caps in stock.
Never underestimate a buyer or purchasing agent's appetite for shortcuts.

I served as components engineer for a small (soon to be even smaller) <snip>


Re: Which type of transistor is SG503 Q190 151-0614-00?

Rajesh VS
 

The datasheet I shared earlier shows two emitters in the pin-out. No
further info.
I checked the data for MM8012, The same there too - two emitters in pinout,
but no other details on the 2nd emitter.

regds,
Rajesh


On Mon, May 4, 2020 at 12:11 PM Ed Breya via groups.io <edbreya=
yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Oops - I do remember seeing that datasheet, but it has no detailed info
about having separate emitters. The test circuits shown have only one
emitter connection. I got the 2N5947 part number right off the SG503
schematic, which has a drawing of the transistor showing the pinout,
including E1 and E2.

Ed



--
/Rajesh


Re: Which type of transistor is SG503 Q190 151-0614-00?

Ed Breya
 

Well, there you go Albert. Jacques has the right info, and every other data seem to confirm it's a regular RF power transistor, regardless of how many emitter connections it has. So, if you're still getting measurements that look Darlingtony, then there's something different about your Q190s, or an unknown missing detail in the test method.

You should be able to tell for sure with a curve tracer, or more work with your temporary test hookups, with the Q disconnected from the normal circuitry.

Ed


Re: Which type of transistor is SG503 Q190 151-0614-00?

Jacques Fortin
 

I have the Motorola Data Sheets for the 2N5947 in my 1974 Semiconductor Data
Library Books.
It was formely produced as the MM8012.
A broadband low distortion, low noise figure silicon transistor,
characterized for use in CATV applications.
Power gain of 10dB (min) at 250MHz.
Case type 144D-04, with two emitter pins.
NOT A DARLINGTON.

73, Jacques, VE2JFE


Re: Which type of transistor is SG503 Q190 151-0614-00?

Ed Breya
 

Oops - I do remember seeing that datasheet, but it has no detailed info about having separate emitters. The test circuits shown have only one emitter connection. I got the 2N5947 part number right off the SG503 schematic, which has a drawing of the transistor showing the pinout, including E1 and E2.

Ed


Re: Which type of transistor is SG503 Q190 151-0614-00?

Rajesh VS
 

2N5947 Datasheet - If this is what you are looking for.

http://pdf.icpdf.com/PdfOld/icpdf_datasheet_9/2N594_datasheet_9803/162246/2N594_datasheet.pdf

Regards
Rajesh


On Mon, May 4, 2020 at 11:29 AM Ed Breya via groups.io <edbreya=
yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Well, this keeps getting curiouser and curiouser. The other day I did some
searching on the 2N5947 (apparently the original Q190), and found no data,
but it seems to have been pretty common in the 1970s. I did find an old
patent with the 2N5947 in its text, and with this interesting abstract:

"A high powered transistor amplifier for use in broadband VHF circuits
which utilizes a pair of transistors connected in a Darlington
configuration with separate emitter resistors. The component values of the
emitter resistors and the feedback resistor being such as to provide
constant impedance operating conditions together with good linearity."

The 2N5947 is mentioned throughout, and also the TRW PT5707 (no data found
for that either), but there's nothing about whether it's a Darlington or
dual type. Everything seems to discuss using a "pair" of transistors hooked
up this way, and these types happen to be what were considered.

The description section states:

"A typical circuit of this type is illustrated in the Motorola
Semiconductor Data Book 5th Edition, Supplement 1, May 1971, pages 6-l09 to
6-112, FIG. 2."

I think this may show something about the 2N5947. It may not necessarily
be about this specific part, but you'd think if it was a Darlington or
specially made for this kind of use, that it would be mentioned. At least
it should be the right vintage. If you can find this data book, it may
solve the mystery. I had no luck in any quick searching, but it's probably
out there somewhere.

The patent is here:


https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/7e/6b/89/5be4c6a2e981f0/US3898577.pdf

Good luck.

Ed





--
/Rajesh


Re: Which type of transistor is SG503 Q190 151-0614-00?

Chuck Harris
 

I have the full spec sheet in an old copy of the Motorola
Small Signal Transistor Data Book.

It doesn't look all that special to me. Definitely not a
darlington.

It has a VBE sat that ranges from 0.7V to 1V at 100ma Ic.

hfe is between 25 and 250... again definitely not a darlington.

Vce(sat) is between 0.25 and 0.35V... definitely not a darlington.

-Chuck Harris

Ed Breya via groups.io wrote:

Well, this keeps getting curiouser and curiouser. The other day I did some searching on the 2N5947 (apparently the original Q190), and found no data, but it seems to have been pretty common in the 1970s. I did find an old patent with the 2N5947 in its text, and with this interesting abstract:

"A high powered transistor amplifier for use in broadband VHF circuits which utilizes a pair of transistors connected in a Darlington configuration with separate emitter resistors. The component values of the emitter resistors and the feedback resistor being such as to provide constant impedance operating conditions together with good linearity."

The 2N5947 is mentioned throughout, and also the TRW PT5707 (no data found for that either), but there's nothing about whether it's a Darlington or dual type. Everything seems to discuss using a "pair" of transistors hooked up this way, and these types happen to be what were considered.

The description section states:

"A typical circuit of this type is illustrated in the Motorola Semiconductor Data Book 5th Edition, Supplement 1, May 1971, pages 6-l09 to 6-112, FIG. 2."

I think this may show something about the 2N5947. It may not necessarily be about this specific part, but you'd think if it was a Darlington or specially made for this kind of use, that it would be mentioned. At least it should be the right vintage. If you can find this data book, it may solve the mystery. I had no luck in any quick searching, but it's probably out there somewhere.

The patent is here:

https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/7e/6b/89/5be4c6a2e981f0/US3898577.pdf

Good luck.

Ed






Re: Question re: capacitor in Tek 181

Dave Wise
 

Part of the schooling for junior engineers at Tek was strong encouragement to use the Common Design Parts Catalogs. I think I was told it cost $10000 of overhead to add a new part, so if you asked for one, you'd better be ready to prove that nothing there would do.

Dave Wise
Information Display Division, 1980-1995
________________________________________
From: TekScopes@groups.io <TekScopes@groups.io> on behalf of Brad Thompson via groups.io <brad.thompsonaa1ip=gmail.com@groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, May 02, 2020 4:25 PM
To: TekScopes@groups.io
Subject: Re: [TekScopes] Question re: capacitor in Tek 181

Ernesto wrote on 5/2/2020 3:35 PM:

Hi Brad,

Another question is why C401, which has identical description as C430 and C431, (2x20uF, 450V, -10%, +50%), has a different part number.
Hello, Ernesto--

C401A and C401B are listed as 2X20 uF, p/n 290-036.
C430 is listed as (2X20 uF), p/n 290-037
C431A and C431B are listed as 2x 20 uF, p/n 290-037

In the schematic, C430 appears as a single 40 uF capacitor-- it's
connected in parallel with C431A 20 uF.
Showing C430 as C430A and C430B (20 uF each) connected in parallel would
clarify matters.

As for C401 and C431 having two different part numbers, perhaps C431
gets prepped with an insulating
cover (since its can floats at -150 volts with respect to the chassis)
and hence deserves its own part number?

Maybe the Tek engineer was also a unique artist, like Leonardo Da Vinci, and wanted other engineers to stand in admiration in front of his designs asking themselves questions, like the public standing in front of the Mona Lisa ask themselves "why is she smiling?".
From an engineering viewpoint, The "Mona Lisa" could have been painted
on a smaller canvas for
more efficient use of materials.<g> (Ear protection in place to muffle
outraged howls emanating
from artaficionados).

My personal take on this is that if we wonder why some piece of equipment seems over designed or under designed, or over specified or under specified, we should not assume that there was some esoteric reason in the superior mind of the designer, but take it as some mundane oversight. And we are free to follow that detail or not. (stated by a former designer).
Or as someone suggested, perhaps there were leftover 6.25 uF caps in
stock. Never underestimate
a buyer or purchasing agent's appetite for shortcuts.

I served as components engineer for a small (soon to be even smaller)
<snip>


Re: Which type of transistor is SG503 Q190 151-0614-00?

Ed Breya
 

Well, this keeps getting curiouser and curiouser. The other day I did some searching on the 2N5947 (apparently the original Q190), and found no data, but it seems to have been pretty common in the 1970s. I did find an old patent with the 2N5947 in its text, and with this interesting abstract:

"A high powered transistor amplifier for use in broadband VHF circuits which utilizes a pair of transistors connected in a Darlington configuration with separate emitter resistors. The component values of the emitter resistors and the feedback resistor being such as to provide constant impedance operating conditions together with good linearity."

The 2N5947 is mentioned throughout, and also the TRW PT5707 (no data found for that either), but there's nothing about whether it's a Darlington or dual type. Everything seems to discuss using a "pair" of transistors hooked up this way, and these types happen to be what were considered.

The description section states:

"A typical circuit of this type is illustrated in the Motorola Semiconductor Data Book 5th Edition, Supplement 1, May 1971, pages 6-l09 to 6-112, FIG. 2."

I think this may show something about the 2N5947. It may not necessarily be about this specific part, but you'd think if it was a Darlington or specially made for this kind of use, that it would be mentioned. At least it should be the right vintage. If you can find this data book, it may solve the mystery. I had no luck in any quick searching, but it's probably out there somewhere.

The patent is here:

https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/7e/6b/89/5be4c6a2e981f0/US3898577.pdf

Good luck.

Ed


Re: A6302/6303 current probe Amphenol 165 connector

Peter H
 

200 quid? Don't shop for these at the aerospace pharmacy! :-)

I got some of these connectors on ebay for a lot less when attached to a surplus cable that the seller didn't know what it was good for.


Re: Which type of transistor is SG503 Q190 151-0614-00?

Lawrance A. Schneider
 

On Sun, May 3, 2020 at 10:26 AM, Albert Otten wrote:


Larry,

You MUST (I don't want to be rude either) have a look at Tekwiki in general
and for your question more specifically at
http://w140.com/tekwiki/wiki/Reference_material, then
the first entries under Components,
the first entry under Semiconductors.

A wealth of information there!

Albert

On Sun, May 3, 2020 at 04:13 PM, Lawrance A. Schneider wrote:


Mr. Lynch wrote:

Doing some additional digging in the TEK Cross Ref. 151-0474-00 is well
documented in the TEK transistor guide page 6-19. 151-0614-00, on the
other
hand, is not.
Are you referring to a specific Scope manual or is there a general 'TEK
Cross
ref.' and is there a general 'TEK transistor guide'?
WOW!!!!

Now I understand why everyone seems to bandy about part numbers; you can actual find them.

Thank you, larry


Re: Tek 7000 series extenders ?

WastelandTek
 

lol, the '70s "computer" font strikes again

I totally see EORG


Re: Need help

Dale Chayes
 

I would look at some possibilities:

1) the scope can’t keep up (on it’s own)

2) the code can’t keep up

3) the ‘net connection is an issue of some sort

Fairly easy to manually run the protocol and verify that the scope can keep up…..

Then look carefully at your code. In my experience (my code) I would focus there

Perhaps your local ‘net has issues (Have a look w/ Wireshark - another fascinating place to spend a lot of time)

I’m actively working w/ pyvisa and would be willing to look at/experiment with your code.
I don’t have the same scope, but can probably set up something similar.

-Dale


On May 4, 2020, at 09:29 , Carl Moon via groups.io <carl.moon=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Hi
So I am making a testing stand for some equipment and I am using an old TDS3034C Tektronix scope for most of my measuring purposes. I've connected it to the computer via Ethernet and using PyVisa to connect to it and acquire all the data I need automatically. However, I've ran into a problem.

Say, I need to calibrate one of the electronic subsystems. So, I connect a signal generator with variable amplitude both to the system's input and to the oscilloscope to trigger it and the system's output to a separate oscilloscope channel. Then I set the TDS3034C into average measuring mode (since it transfers the measured data to the computer very slowly) and start the test.

If the signal generator's period is smaller than about 50ms, then oscilloscope seems to lose events. I make 100 impulses on the signal generator, while the scope registers anywhere from 20 to 99 triggered events depending on the generator period (from 1ms to 50ms, that's from 1000Hz to 200Hz), and only occasionally all 100.

What could be the problem here and how do I combat it? How do I set the optimal generator frequency/period? What is the tds3034C max trigger rate? I couldn't find it anywhere in the oscilloscope manual. Both it's analog bandwidth and ADC frequency should be more than enough (I do understand that these characteristics have nothing to do with the oscilloscope max trigger rate, but still)
Carl


-Dale
Remember: all the other risks and hazards continue to exist!


Re: Need help

Carl Moon <carl.moon@...>
 

Hi Aldue
Thank for the reply.
Carl