Date   

Re: 2440 seems to crash when switched less than 200ns/div?

 

Hello,

This is worth a recap before looking for semiconductor issues.

Paul

Le dimanche 29 mai 2016, laser92awd@yahoo.com [TekScopes] <
TekScopes@yahoogroups.com> a écrit :
After some more testing, it looks like there's a reverse temperature to
working condition correlation: it seems slightly better when cold and
freshly powered up. This unfortunately means semiconductors? :( Now I
need to get a bottle of freeze spray...

However the behavior is still the same:

- In fast sweep times, the screen tends to jitter more
- hitting 100ns/div it gets really bad. Screen can shrink to 1/2 its
original size.
- Usually trace, when it's doing this, is really noisy. When the scope
is cold and freshly turned on, it's not so bad. and somewhat usable though
I've yet to see a trace with the sweep this fast, need to get a setup going
right away when I catch it working.
- As time goes on, screen can flicker on and off. When it does flicker
on and off, the input coupling sometimes suddenly thinks it's in 50 ohm
termination and overloaded, and switches to GND coupling. The input
attenuators click during this time.
- and eventually it screen will go out and blank. Usually the four
trigger LEDs will start blinking with whatever it was triggering on

This still seems to have power implications because so many subsystems
seem to be affected at the same time, but capacitors seems less likely as
usually they work better when slightly warmed up...

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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Re: Module A64A1, 492BP deflection amp

Artek Manuals <manuals@...>
 

Gerald

Sorry my 492BP (Volume 2/parts and schematics) manual does not have any board or schematic info on on the 671-0803 board. There is a later A64A1 board shown, 671-0372 Further review of the 492B parts list does list the 671-0803 board in the parts list but there is no schematic in the schematic section . This might imply that their is only a minor part difference between the 671-0803 and the 671-0372 which is listed in the schematic section. There does not seem to be large board layout changes between the 670-8083 and the 671-0372 but I did not do an exhaustive comparison> The only implied difference ( that I could find) between the 671-0372 and the 671-0803 is R5087 which changed to a 12.1K from a 9K


Private email me a photo of the 671-0803 board and I will compare that to the parts layout on the 671-0372 I have. It is possible that it is only necessary to locate R5087 and change it to a 9K to have a 671-0372 board which should work with the non option 43 CRT

NOTE: I also changed the message header to reflect A64A1 instead of A64

Dave
NR1DX
manuals@artekmanuals.com

On 5/29/2016 2:56 AM, vk3gjm@commtelns.com [TekScopes] wrote:
Hi Dave,


Although you have stated no further info on the board, does your volume
1 492BP service, Volume-1 Part No. 070-5565-01 support the 671-0803-00
Deflection amp board?


My unit does not have option 43 which is reduced graticule tube, no
option listed.


Thanks in advance.


Regards


Gerald
VK3GJM


--
Dave
Manuals@ArtekManuals.com
www.ArtekManuals.com


Re: Module A64, 492BP deflection amp

Gerald
 

Hi Dave,


Although you have stated no further info on the board, does your volume 1 492BP service, Volume-1 Part No. 070-5565-01 support the 671-0803-00 Deflection amp board?


My unit does not have option 43 which is reduced graticule tube, no option listed.


Thanks in advance.


Regards


Gerald
VK3GJM


Re: 585A Power Supply Time-delay Relay Does Not Switch

bc
 

And of course I didn't see the 198V RMS so that relay must be able to withstand at least 300VDC across the contacts... at least it does not have to carry way too much current...


Re: 585A Power Supply Time-delay Relay Does Not Switch

bc
 

I guess I had to go and look at the schematic, swiped from w140.com, PDF page 171.
There's two parts, K600 which seems to be a thermal preheat cutoff, and K601 which is a multipole relay. K601 seems to be unenergized when cold, but once K600 heats up and kicks in, it will latch by energizing K601 and latch on until power is cut off as you mentioned. It also cuts off power to K600 to save it for the next power up.

Well, perhaps the relay is dead. After your 585A is warmed up or as far as you know is warmed up (I suspect it should be similar as when it's inserted in your other scope), check the voltage across the K600 relay coil. If it's 20V (according to the schematics...) then check the voltage across pins 1 and 6 of the thermal cutoff. If it's 0V then the relay is working. If you still see preheat voltage then the relay isn't working.

It doesn't seem the relay is very special though the preheat timer is. Probably could swap K601 with any 24V relay that can deal with 125VDC... it is dual throw but not sure how many poles, seems to be at least a DPDT.

-Ben


585A Power Supply Time-delay Relay Does Not Switch

Alex Brinister
 

Hello all,


I have a 585A that seems to have a power supply issue. Specifically, the time-delay relay that lets the tubes warm up does not go off after ~30 seconds. I have tested the tube by putting it in my 545A and the relay switches as it should. I am wondering if it is the magnetic relay itself. I have looked at the schematic and I don't really see many other components in the circuit other than the relay and tube. The circuit description for the low voltage power supplies says that the relay switches after a time (for my S/N 7448, it is a 6 V 45 second delay) and activates all the voltage supplies. It remains energized until the scope is turned off. The relay doesn't seem to get energized ever. All the power supplies read 0 V.


I do have a parts donor (a 545A) but I'm not sure if the relay is the same. In the parts list for the 545A, it says the relay is a "DC Relay Coil, 2000 Ohm". However, in the 585A parts list, it lists "6 v 45 Sec. Delay". Furthermore, the part numbers are different. I don't think I could make the replacement.


I am not sure if it is the relay at fault and I am not sure how to check that it is the culprit. Any help appreciated.


Thank you,
Alex Brinister


Re: 2440 seems to crash when switched less than 200ns/div?

bc
 

After some more testing, it looks like there's a reverse temperature to working condition correlation: it seems slightly better when cold and freshly powered up. This unfortunately means semiconductors? :( Now I need to get a bottle of freeze spray...

However the behavior is still the same:

- In fast sweep times, the screen tends to jitter more
- hitting 100ns/div it gets really bad. Screen can shrink to 1/2 its original size.
- Usually trace, when it's doing this, is really noisy. When the scope is cold and freshly turned on, it's not so bad. and somewhat usable though I've yet to see a trace with the sweep this fast, need to get a setup going right away when I catch it working.
- As time goes on, screen can flicker on and off. When it does flicker on and off, the input coupling sometimes suddenly thinks it's in 50 ohm termination and overloaded, and switches to GND coupling. The input attenuators click during this time.
- and eventually it screen will go out and blank. Usually the four trigger LEDs will start blinking with whatever it was triggering on

This still seems to have power implications because so many subsystems seem to be affected at the same time, but capacitors seems less likely as usually they work better when slightly warmed up...


Re: Module A64, 492BP deflection amp

Sergey Kubushyn
 

On Sat, 28 May 2016, Artek Manuals manuals@artekmanuals.com [TekScopes] wrote:

Option 43 is reduced scan CRT with readout outside signal area. It makes
sense it might need a different deflection amp.

Gerald

You might also try scouting the later 275x series analyzer manuals the
A64 and A64A1 boards were common between these models and the 492B

The further add to the confusion the 670-8083-xx number is for A64A1 not
A64 ????

The 671-0803-00 board is noted in one change document I have as being
for Option 43 but no further info on the board itself or the even what
Option 43 is ..not much help but perhaps a clue??

73
Dave
NR1DX
manuals@artekmanuals.com



I have a 1990 late model Tek 492BP SA with a deflection amp fault. There
are several versions of PCB releases and the one I have is a
671-0803-00, no typing error.


This PCB is quite different to all PCB and schematics I have seen and
all refer to part No. 670-8083-00.


Has anyone come across a late model deflection amp with a sticker
stating 670-0803-00, I would appreciate any feedback and schematic
information.


Thank you in advance.


Regards


Gerald
VK3GJM

--
Dave
Manuals@ArtekManuals.com
www.ArtekManuals.com

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Re: Introduction, 2440 cal, 5400 illimination

Szabolcs Szigeti
 

Hi,


I did the calibration with a bench power supply and a simple 3.5 digit multimeter. I put an RC filter on the output to decrease noise.
Yes, it takes time to step trough the 0.2, 2, and 20V steps, twice for both channels. The service manual specifically mentions not to connect both channels at the same time. It also mentiones that the atten cal will fail if the scope detect more than 2% difference with the internal 10V reference and the external voltage. However, for the trig cal you do both at the same time.
Any problem like wrong voltage or polarity will result in a fail, but the scope won't give detail on the fail.
For the delay and CTE cal, you don't really need fast pulse, I was able to calibrate with my pulse gen, that has around 6ns rise time. The CTE cal is picky on the correct amplitude though.


Szabolcs


Re: 2440 seems to crash when switched less than 200ns/div?

bc
 

This is the "poorman's Storage Oscilloscope" image of the waveform I see on +5V (analog) with AC coupling:

Yahoo! Groups https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/TekScopes/photos/albums/739712057/lightbox/2059630000?orderBy=ordinal&;sortOrder=asc&photoFilter=ALL

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/TekScopes/photos/albums/739712057/lightbox/2059630000?orderBy=ordinal&;sortOrder=asc&photoFilter=ALL

Yahoo! Groups https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/TekScopes/photos/albums/739712057/lightbox/2059630000?orderBy=ordinal&;sortOrder=asc&photoFilter=ALL Oops! Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.



View on groups.yahoo.com https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/TekScopes/photos/albums/739712057/lightbox/2059630000?orderBy=ordinal&;sortOrder=asc&photoFilter=ALL
Preview by Yahoo



(Using a knock off x10 probe, so multiply by 10). The flat line voltage is about 5V so at least that looks OK.

These are only showing up when "sweep" (or is it "sample speed") is less than 100ns/div. The glitches are about the same magnitude for 100ns/50ns/20ns/10ns/5ns/2ns.

I took a homemade ESR meter onto +5analog bus at the test point on the side board (I haven't located the filter cap yet as it's buried) - did not look too horrible for a supposedly 100uF cap.

-Ben


Re: 2440 seems to crash when switched less than 200ns/div?

 

On 28 May 2016 01:01:02 -0700, you wrote:

I noticed some CCD tests intermittently fail, and notice CRT flickering. Also in regular acquire mode in in the low time/division (100ns or shorter). I also noticed that the CRT flickers. The only thing that seem a little weird - I see some really sharp upward ramps and fast collapses in the +5 (analog I guess, not the digital one) power rail, these are 0.4V sawtooths that are really visible amongst the switching noise which are very small. These "big" glitches are happening at the same time as the jitters on the CRT, and I see these only in the 100ns or shorter time/division modes. I'm still trying to locate where I can probe the CRT power input, suspecting the same behavior is happening.

Trying to get these events to trigger on my 2465 and failing; using AC coupling as the 5V offset is drowning out most of the noise. They look like it sharply drops 200mV in 1ms, rises 400mV in about 0.7ms, and then drops back down to nominal instantly - so I see some checkmarks in the waveform, and cant say these are cap issues... ugh.
Seems like a capacitor issue to me.

You may need to operate your 2465 at slower sweep speeds and/or higher
brightness to see what is really going on. You might also try
triggering on the line, switching power supply, or digital section
logic signals.


Re: Introduction, 2440 cal,

 

On Fri, 27 May 2016 20:56:13 -0700, you wrote:

On 4/23/16 8:28 AM, David davidwhess@gmail.com [TekScopes] wrote:


I did the same thing the first time I did the external calibration on
my 2440 after being unable to read the contents of the nonvolatile
SRAM with my programmer. I used the sync output from my 2 MHz analog
function generator for the channel delay alignment and a PS503A,
switched RF attenuator, and 4 digit voltmeter for the DC levels. Later
I did the calibration again with a PG506 and it went much faster.
Mine is not being so cooperative with EXT CAL, ATTEN. It FAILs every
time. I'm using a variable power supply and a voltage divider (with a
resistor substitution box) with a Fluke 8860A (which reports my
DMMCheckPlus at 5.0003V, which ought to be close enough for a scope).
Is there some problem with how long the scope can wait between the
steps, since it takes a while to set the voltages each time (and why
can't I do the same voltage on each channel sequentially, so I only have
to set them three times, not six, and each channel will get, in turn,
the same value for each voltage?)? Sigh.
There is some kind of pattern or maybe lack of a pattern when using
the Cold Start, Self Calibration, and Reload Factory Settings or
whatever it is. I had the best results using all of them multiple
times.

I haven't tried the delay part yet. I have a demo board with a sub-ns
edge I can use, though.
The edge does not need to be that fast; you just need to be able to
visually see the delay between channels at the fastest time/div.

As for a PG506, I've already spent too much money getting this scope
usable. It's a hobby, anyway.
The PG506 just makes the voltage calibration faster.


Re: 2440 seems to crash when switched less than 200ns/div?

 

On 27 May 2016 19:59:04 -0700, you wrote:

I did the unthinkable in my current situation, and now I have one more scope: It's a 2440 to complement the 2465.

It was sold as defective/parts only, and wasn't dirt cheap (I could have paid about 50% more and gotten a completely working one -- but it sold before I flinched. I was thinking that one was a tad underpriced). After futzing with it, fortunately I think three (well, four or maybe five) things are wrong with it:

1,2 - Battery is dead and External Calibration data lost :-(
Battery was completely flat at 0V. I desolderd the battery and used two alkaline AAA's as the Sony 32KB memory chips should be able to retain data even with this low of voltage. However the voltage is not quite high enough to trigger selftest as good. Will need to look for a 3.6V battery at some point.
Luckily the external calibration is relatively easy to do. You need a
stable voltage source any fast edge. The edge could be the synch
output from a function generator or even a TTL output.

Three alkaline AA batteries for a nominal 4.5 volts would work.

3 - The serious problem: If I switch the time/div to less than 200 ns/div range, the scope goes haywire, possibly crashes and blinks the trigger LEDs. Slower than 200ns/div looks OK. I think it's also temperature sensitive but need to experiment with this some more. I'm thinking bad capacitors in the LVPSU but still trying to coming up with hypothesis.
The loss of the calibration data may be responsible for this. As I
recall, there is an command in the service menu which reloads the
default calibration data and affects the CCD system.

Levels and noise on the low voltage power supply outputs should be
checked of course. I have seen high noise here affect the digitizer.

4,5 - the plastic fan mount cracked, and just like my 2465 it's also missing that oh-so--annoying-when-missing clear piece over the power button...

So far other than the somewhat noisy waveforms and that crash problem, it looks like it's working, seems I once got everything on the selftest to say "PASS" except for the battery! If I can figure out why it goes bonkers at fast "sweep" speeds, this looks like a winner. So far: I like this 2440. I don't recall ever actually using a DSO before and this exceeds my expectations, even if newer ones can sample faster and have deeper memory.

-Ben
I find the 2440 to be very usable with a faster interface than most
modern low end DSOs.


Re: Module A64, 492BP deflection amp

Artek Manuals <manuals@...>
 

Gerald

You might also try scouting the later 275x series analyzer manuals the A64 and A64A1 boards were common between these models and the 492B

The further add to the confusion the 670-8083-xx number is for A64A1 not A64 ????

The 671-0803-00 board is noted in one change document I have as being for Option 43 but no further info on the board itself or the even what Option 43 is ..not much help but perhaps a clue??

73
Dave
NR1DX
manuals@artekmanuals.com



I have a 1990 late model Tek 492BP SA with a deflection amp fault. There
are several versions of PCB releases and the one I have is a
671-0803-00, no typing error.


This PCB is quite different to all PCB and schematics I have seen and
all refer to part No. 670-8083-00.


Has anyone come across a late model deflection amp with a sticker
stating 670-0803-00, I would appreciate any feedback and schematic
information.


Thank you in advance.


Regards


Gerald
VK3GJM
--
Dave
Manuals@ArtekManuals.com
www.ArtekManuals.com


Re: 2440 seems to crash when switched less than 200ns/div?

bc
 

I noticed some CCD tests intermittently fail, and notice CRT flickering. Also in regular acquire mode in in the low time/division (100ns or shorter). I also noticed that the CRT flickers. The only thing that seem a little weird - I see some really sharp upward ramps and fast collapses in the +5 (analog I guess, not the digital one) power rail, these are 0.4V sawtooths that are really visible amongst the switching noise which are very small. These "big" glitches are happening at the same time as the jitters on the CRT, and I see these only in the 100ns or shorter time/division modes. I'm still trying to locate where I can probe the CRT power input, suspecting the same behavior is happening.

Trying to get these events to trigger on my 2465 and failing; using AC coupling as the 5V offset is drowning out most of the noise. They look like it sharply drops 200mV in 1ms, rises 400mV in about 0.7ms, and then drops back down to nominal instantly - so I see some checkmarks in the waveform, and cant say these are cap issues... ugh.


Re: New file uploaded to TekScopes

Albert Otten
 

These files of Alberto actually were pictures and are in the Photos section now.
Albert


---In TekScopes@yahoogroups.com, <grbosworth@...> wrote :

Invalid path. Could not see the post.


Module A64, 492BP deflection amp

Gerald
 

Hi All,


I have a 1990 late model Tek 492BP SA with a deflection amp fault. There are several versions of PCB releases and the one I have is a 671-0803-00, no typing error.


This PCB is quite different to all PCB and schematics I have seen and all refer to part No. 670-8083-00.


Has anyone come across a late model deflection amp with a sticker stating 670-0803-00, I would appreciate any feedback and schematic information.


Thank you in advance.


Regards


Gerald
VK3GJM


Re: Need help finding Lithium backup battery for a Tek 2430A

 

A Google search of "LTC-16P-CO-F-S2" turned up that this item is a
discontinued Eagle-Picher 3.5V 1600mAH non-rechargeable "Electronic
Battery". Searching Mouser for "Electronic Battery" turned up several
possible replacements. The closest is an Eagle-Picher LTC16M-S4
<http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Eagle-Picher/LTC16M-S4/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMtLoaml0iHoQygV9CKexg4%252b6r0Z3tWjBYM%3d>;
with
the same specs as the LTC-16P battery. The LTC16M is $35.47, but is out of
stock until 7/28/16. There is a 750MAH version for $15.82 that looks like
it might work but with half the life. What I found intriguing was the
PT-2150
<http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Eagle-Picher/PT-2150/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMtLoaml0iHoQygV9CKexg4%252bhlhCbuhmmYA%3d>;
3.5V 2400MAH AA style battery for $8.68. This would require a bit of
engineering to fit, probably a battery holder & remote mounting. I'm
thinking the miniscule current flow through the added wiring won't upset
any other circuitry on the board....

I might take a look at trying this when I tear my 2430A apart to the point
that I can locate and identify the backup battery. So far I haven't
attempted to pull the time base/display board yet, but the U431 16K static
RAM fails on the diagnostic test so I will be swapping that out next week
when I get a new chip. That will afford me the opportunity to take a look
at my processor board & see what I think I can do.


Re: Introduction, 2440 cal,

Jeff Woolsey
 

On 4/23/16 8:28 AM, David davidwhess@gmail.com [TekScopes] wrote:


I did the same thing the first time I did the external calibration on
my 2440 after being unable to read the contents of the nonvolatile
SRAM with my programmer. I used the sync output from my 2 MHz analog
function generator for the channel delay alignment and a PS503A,
switched RF attenuator, and 4 digit voltmeter for the DC levels. Later
I did the calibration again with a PG506 and it went much faster.
Mine is not being so cooperative with EXT CAL, ATTEN. It FAILs every
time. I'm using a variable power supply and a voltage divider (with a
resistor substitution box) with a Fluke 8860A (which reports my
DMMCheckPlus at 5.0003V, which ought to be close enough for a scope).
Is there some problem with how long the scope can wait between the
steps, since it takes a while to set the voltages each time (and why
can't I do the same voltage on each channel sequentially, so I only have
to set them three times, not six, and each channel will get, in turn,
the same value for each voltage?)? Sigh.

I haven't tried the delay part yet. I have a demo board with a sub-ns
edge I can use, though.

As for a PG506, I've already spent too much money getting this scope
usable. It's a hobby, anyway.

--
Jeff Woolsey {{woolsey,jlw}@jlw,first.last@{gmail,jlw}}.com
Nature abhors straight antennas, clean lenses, and empty storage.
"Delete! Delete! OK!" -Dr. Bronner on disk space management
Card-sorting, Joel. -Crow on solitaire


Re: Need help finding Lithium backup battery for a Tek 2430A

bc
 

I was working on my 2440 and pulled out a dead "Lithium Keeper" 3.5V/1.6AH model LTC-16P-CO-F-S2.  Not sure if they're still being produced, but I found that 3.0V from either a MnO2 Lithium primary cell or two Alkaline cells is not enough to make the self test happy - though it will keep the RAM data intact while trying to find a stopgap solution to keep RAM contents.

I thought I saw a couple of the "newer" 2440s and I would imagine the 2430A would have the Dallas Semiconductor embedded battery RAMs like the 24x5A/B's... but I guess if the service manual says no, it must be so.
The battery in my 2440 is(WAS) on the processor board which can be seen after lifting up the top board hinge.

-Ben

On Wednesday, May 25, 2016 10:07 PM, "houdatto@gmail.com [TekScopes]" <TekScopes@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


  Can anyone give me some help identifying the NVRAM Lithium backup battery for a Tek 2430A? The 2430 service manual identifies the battery for that model as a 3.5V, 750mah LTC-7P, which is easy to find commercially. However, the 2430A service manual identifies the battery for that model as a 3.5V, 1.6AH battery but gives only the Tektronix part number 146-0062-00. Obviously the batteries are different between the two models and I have had no luck finding a commercial part number for the 2430A. Can someone point me in the right direction???


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