Date   
Re: Found 2ea. 152-0635-00 HV Multipliers

n4buq
 

Hi Walter,

Yes - I'd definitely be interested in one of those. Please let me know the details.

Thanks,
Barry - N4BUQ

----- Original Message -----
From: "@walter2 [TekScopes]" <TekScopes@...>
To: TekScopes@...
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2017 6:58:54 PM
Subject: [TekScopes] Found 2ea. 152-0635-00 HV Multipliers

I was following the 465M thread, and ti suddenly dawned on me that I had seen
some of these recently. sure enough, in the pile of Tek spares I bought
from Tek last year, there were two of them, both pulls. All the other parts
in this batch have proven good, so I think odds favor at least one is OK,
and somebody could clip lead it into place to be sure first. they look
great.

I am not really sure who was looking for this, but I also have one known good
465M horizontal section (complete) left. If somebody can use one of these
multipliers, please email me (off list is best), you can have it for the
shipping cost (which from here is approx. US$22 for a small air packet) -OR-
if Dennis Tillman makes it up here for stuff day on October 7th, he can just
bring it back, assuming the part needer is somewhere in the pacific
northwest, and close enough to meet up with him.

any 561B/564B fans? many frames and plug-ins will go on stuff day! Just $5
for a 2/3 series plug in.

anyway, just my $0.02 worth, if somebody can use this part.
all the best,
walter (walter2 -at- sphere.bc.ca)
sphere research corp.



Found 2ea. 152-0635-00 HV Multipliers

 

I was following the 465M thread, and ti suddenly dawned on me that I had seen some of these recently. sure enough, in the pile of Tek spares I bought from Tek last year, there were two of them, both pulls. All the other parts in this batch have proven good, so I think odds favor at least one is OK, and somebody could clip lead it into place to be sure first. they look great.

I am not really sure who was looking for this, but I also have one known good 465M horizontal section (complete) left. If somebody can use one of these multipliers, please email me (off list is best), you can have it for the shipping cost (which from here is approx. US$22 for a small air packet) -OR- if Dennis Tillman makes it up here for stuff day on October 7th, he can just bring it back, assuming the part needer is somewhere in the pacific northwest, and close enough to meet up with him.

any 561B/564B fans? many frames and plug-ins will go on stuff day! Just $5 for a 2/3 series plug in.

anyway, just my $0.02 worth, if somebody can use this part.
all the best,
walter (walter2 -at- sphere.bc.ca)
sphere research corp.

Re: 465M HV Regulator Question

Ed Breya
 

I am unfamiliar with this multiplier, except for what's been discussed. I gather that the guts are potted in an opaque epoxy so that you can't see what's in there, and it's too hard to just dig out, like a silicone goop would be.

But, what about trying to chemically break down or soften the epoxy? There are chemicals that can do it, and this sort of thing has been discussed here a number of times, including most recently due to me trying to take apart some ferrite transformers that are epoxied or otherwise glued together. Just a thought for consideration.

Ed

Re: Beginners guide to check out and repair 7904 mainframe

 

Agree with David's comments. One early check you can do is ohm out each of the LV supply rails looking for shorted tantalum bypass caps that are a common issue.

Check the line voltage setting.

Blow out any dust. Dust is bad.

Good luck.

----- Original Message -----
From: David DiGiacomo telists@... [TekScopes]
To: TekScopes
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2017 6:46 PM
Subject: Re: [TekScopes] Beginners guide to check out and repair 7904 mainframe



> Is 'reforming' caps in this piece of equipment recommended?

No.

> I am looking for some pointers recommended test procedures to ensure proper operation and eventually calibration. (pointers to service manuals would be helpful as well)

The service manual edition you need depends on the scope SN. Artek
has both editions.

> In addition, I am seeking some advice on some known weakspots (e.g. components, circuits) of this unit that I should probably replace due to age or perform any well veted modifications.

Weak spots are the bridge rectifier and the DC restorer diodes, but I
wouldn't preemptively replace either.

> Any insight into test jigs I should have that would make this job a bit easier? (I do have a cable harness 'extender' that I use with my TM504 modules-is that useful for the scope modules?

Extenders are handy for repairing plugins, but they are not the same
as TM500 extenders.

> I haven't powered it on (yet) deciding it is better to forgoe the smoke test and do some preliminary work on the pieces themselves.Advice is much appreciated.J

The power supply won't work without loads, so most people use the
smoke test method.

Re: 465M HV Regulator Question

Ed Breya
 

It is common practice to have at least some series R on the HVDC output to soften the arc current if it is discharged to a low impedance. It protects the diodes and the output capacitor. It also provides a little more low-pass filtering - the cable and CRT capacitance is the other part. The R should be rated to take the full output voltage momentarily, and the resulting surge current.

Sometimes the CRT capacitance is pretty much the only filtering, as in a TV picture tube - the metallizations or DAGs on the inside and outside form the filter capacitor, and the HV rectifier in the flyback transformer dumps right into it through the ultor lead. The return line is the springy CRT retainer/grounding basket and braided wiring that contacts the outer DAG, and connects it to the circuit common.

Ed

Re: Beginners guide to check out and repair 7904 mainframe

David DiGiacomo
 

Is 'reforming' caps in this piece of equipment recommended?
No.

I am looking for some pointers recommended test procedures to ensure proper operation and eventually calibration. (pointers to service manuals would be helpful as well)
The service manual edition you need depends on the scope SN. Artek
has both editions.

In addition, I am seeking some advice on some known weakspots (e.g. components, circuits) of this unit that I should probably replace due to age or perform any well veted modifications.
Weak spots are the bridge rectifier and the DC restorer diodes, but I
wouldn't preemptively replace either.

Any insight into test jigs I should have that would make this job a bit easier? (I do have a cable harness 'extender' that I use with my TM504 modules-is that useful for the scope modules?
Extenders are handy for repairing plugins, but they are not the same
as TM500 extenders.

I haven't powered it on (yet) deciding it is better to forgoe the smoke test and do some preliminary work on the pieces themselves.Advice is much appreciated.J
The power supply won't work without loads, so most people use the
smoke test method.

Re: 465M HV Regulator Question

n4buq
 

While I'm pretty sure of the basic schematic, I am curious as to the
function of the output
resistor.
What is its purpose?

Thanks,
Barry - N4BUQ
Current limiter in case you spark the output to ground; prevents the diodes
from going phut.

Craig
If I do build a new tripler, I assume I'm looking for caps in the 1nF range, 6kV or better and diodes of also 6kV or better but what kind of current does a multiplier for this scope draw (and are those values about right)?

I _think_ I can build this in a relatively flat box that will fit on top of U550 and still clear the cover with sufficient potting to prevent arcs. If not, I may have to use a few jackscrews to lift that cover up just a bit but I kind of had to do that if I don't have to.

Thanks,
Barry - N4BUQ

Re: 465M HV Regulator Question

Craig Sawyers <c.sawyers@...>
 

While I'm pretty sure of the basic schematic, I am curious as to the function of the output
resistor.
What is its purpose?

Thanks,
Barry - N4BUQ
Current limiter in case you spark the output to ground; prevents the diodes from going phut.

Craig

Re: 465M HV Regulator Question

Bert Haskins
 

On 9/25/2017 4:18 PM, Barry n4buq@... [TekScopes] wrote:

Hi Bert,

Not sure what happened but it appears the email system(s) played with
your text-based schematic. I tried pasting it into a fixed-width font
editor, but it still appears munged.

While I'm pretty sure of the basic schematic, I am curious as to the
function of the output resistor. What is its purpose?&#92;
I would guess that it's just a current limiter, to help to protect the
trippler against bad things, since the normal PDA current is very
small.. really just a field potential.
Not that you would think that if it ever happens to nail you.


Thanks,
Barry - N4BUQ

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bert Haskins bhaskins@... [TekScopes]"
<TekScopes@...>
To: TekScopes@...
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2017 9:55:02 AM
Subject: Re: [TekScopes] 465M HV Regulator Question



On 9/25/2017 9:49 AM, Barry n4buq@... [TekScopes] wrote:

What I would do, is remove it, determine how the two sections are
partitioned, and take a milling
machine, and remove the tripler... them build a new one, and
pot it in
place...
I've done that before, Chuck, too. But with the 465M the tripler is
just part
of a whole lot of other
HV stuff potted in the same assembly. Looking at the schematic is
seems to be
a pretty unique
combination.

Craig
Interesting article from Deane Kidd about this very thing...

https://groups.io/g/TekScopes/message/9119?p=id,0,,20,2,118211,2338689&offset=

Thanks,
Barry - N4BUQ
The text is a little fuzzy at one point lets try:
The first capacitor goes from the anode of the first diode to the anode
of the third diode.

|---------- cap ----------|
| |
in
o-----o-|>|----o----|>|-------o----|>|-----o-----&#92;/&#92;/&#92;/&#92;/&#92;/------o out
| |
cap cap
| |
---------o---------------------------------o
I have done a few of these in the past with good results.


Posted by: Barry <n4buq@...>
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Re: 465M HV Regulator Question

n4buq
 

Hi Bert,

Not sure what happened but it appears the email system(s) played with your text-based schematic. I tried pasting it into a fixed-width font editor, but it still appears munged.

While I'm pretty sure of the basic schematic, I am curious as to the function of the output resistor. What is its purpose?

Thanks,
Barry - N4BUQ

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bert Haskins bhaskins@... [TekScopes]" <TekScopes@...>
To: TekScopes@...
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2017 9:55:02 AM
Subject: Re: [TekScopes] 465M HV Regulator Question



On 9/25/2017 9:49 AM, Barry n4buq@... [TekScopes] wrote:

What I would do, is remove it, determine how the two sections are
partitioned, and take a milling
machine, and remove the tripler... them build a new one, and pot it in
place...
I've done that before, Chuck, too. But with the 465M the tripler is
just part
of a whole lot of other
HV stuff potted in the same assembly. Looking at the schematic is
seems to be
a pretty unique
combination.

Craig
Interesting article from Deane Kidd about this very thing...

https://groups.io/g/TekScopes/message/9119?p=id,0,,20,2,118211,2338689&offset=

Thanks,
Barry - N4BUQ
The text is a little fuzzy at one point lets try:
The first capacitor goes from the anode of the first diode to the anode
of the third diode.

|---------- cap ----------|
| |
in o-----o-|>|----o----|>|-------o----|>|-----o-----&#92;/&#92;/&#92;/&#92;/&#92;/------o out
| |
cap cap
| |
---------o---------------------------------o
I have done a few of these in the past with good results.


Posted by: Barry <n4buq@...>
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Re: Behaviour of 7000-series timebases

Harvey White
 

On Mon, 25 Sep 2017 17:07:26 +0200, you wrote:

On 24 Sep 2017 1:34 a.m., "Harvey White madyn@... [TekScopes]"
<TekScopes@...> wrote:



On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 21:55:20 +0200, you wrote:

The idea I'm playing with is to put together something for decoding serial
data streams. Lots of modern DSOs can do this, and it would be useful to
me, but I don't want to buy a modern DSO when my 7000-series gear is so
excellent at finding the signal I want, and I've already got it. These
thoughts and experiments confirm, I think, that all the right signals to do
this are present with a bit of analog adaptation and some FPGA fiddling.
You'd be happier with a logic analyzer. They'll do state. You want
to use the FPGA/CPLD to go from time domain to state. You either do
state, or feed it to a microprocessor and get very smart decoding.

I've got a couple of 16500Bs with various useful cards which I use from
time to time, and they work well for parallel logic.
But not so well on serial, of course.

However, a feature
I've seen on lots of modern digital scopes is the ability to decode a few
bytes of serial data from the trace. This would be really handy while
probing around. Since an analogue scope is my weapon of choice for probing
around, I'd really like to have something like that decoding ability built
in. It would be great for basic sanity checks: have I configured this port
correctly? Are the bits in the right order? That sort of thing.
Yep, however, that requires a modern digital scope (not a 16500B, got
one of them....). You'll likely find that one of the little
sampler/decoder setups available from China will do a job for you.
Depends on what you want and how much they actually decode. I have up
to 200 byte messages (depending on data structure in the I2C). Not
sure what the limits are on other hardware, but since I'm using a
logic analyzer, it's what the LA does.

Sounds like you'll want an I2C sniffer (or the like).

Harvey


Chris


Beginners guide to check out and repair 7904 mainframe

John Hudak
 

I recently brought out of storage a 7904 with the following:
One 7A26 Dual Trace Amplifier, One 7A18 Dual Trace Amplifier,  One 7B85 Delaying Time Base, One 7B80 Time Base.
I do have the operating manuals for each module + mainframe.It hasen't been powered on in 10-15 years. It used to be in my lab and saw limited use since the mid 90's.
I am not new to restoring old test gear or older TVs, radios, stereo receivers, ham gear or vintage old iron CPUs, etc. but this will be first trip with this venerable scope.
Is 'reforming' caps in this piece of equipment recommended?

I am looking for some pointers recommended test procedures to ensure proper operation and eventually calibration. (pointers to service manuals would be helpful as well)

In addition, I am seeking some advice on some known weakspots (e.g. components, circuits) of this unit that I should probably replace due to age or perform any well veted modifications.
Any insight into test jigs I should have that would make this job a bit easier? (I do have a cable harness 'extender' that I use with my TM504 modules-is that useful for the scope modules?
I haven't powered it on (yet) deciding it is better to forgoe the smoke test and do some preliminary work on the pieces themselves.Advice is much appreciated.J

Re: 465M HV Regulator Question

Craig Sawyers <c.sawyers@...>
 

Interesting article from Deane Kidd about this very thing...

https://groups.io/g/TekScopes/message/9119?p=id,0,,20,2,118211,2338689&offset=

Thanks,
Barry - N4BUQ
Ah - the late and very great Deane. Good to see a link to one of his messages.

Craig

Re: 465M HV Regulator Question

Ed Breya
 

Gotta agree with Chuck again - especially when he agrees with me. Line power transformers can indeed be adequate for much higher frequency, and can support higher voltage at higher frequency. It's when you want to reduce the frequency below normal that you have to worry about saturation.

400 Hz was used in the old days to allow for smaller magnetics, needing much less iron and copper for a given VA rating. The main difference between 50/60 Hz power and audio (and 400 Hz) transformers is the thickness of the core laminations. Higher frequency operation needs thinner strips to reduce the eddy current losses.

There's a limit to how thin the core laminations can be practically made, so the next notch up to operate well above audio is with ferrites and powder cores.

The sintered iron (and more exotic alloys) powder cores reduce the eddy losses much more, but also form a distributed air gap. This greatly reduces available inductance, but provides for great intrinsic energy storage ability. These are suitable for energy storage chokes and DC filtering in SMPS work.

The ferrites operate similarly, but the magnetic particles are microscopic, and so is the effective air gap. Depending on the material, they are usable into the microwave region. For SMPS work, the beauty of ferrites is their versatility - all kinds of shapes and sizes and materials are available, and they can be made for many purposes. For a straight transformer function at high frequencies, a solid ferrite core provides quite a bit of inductance for not many turns. For energy storage, an air gap is added. These functions are often combined in SMPSs, and for example, in the HVPS of an oscilloscope.

So anyway, you wouldn't ordinarily use a line transformer at higher audio frequencies - but you could, as long as you know what to expect. Likewise, you wouldn't ordinarily use a ferrite core in an audio transformer - but you could, as long as you know what to expect.

Ed



Ed

Re: 465M HV Regulator Question

n4buq
 

Ah, okay. I see them all now.

Nice job on the repair!

Thanks,
Barry - N4BUQ

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sigurður Ásgeirsson siggi@... [TekScopes]" <TekScopes@...>
To: TekScopes@...
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2017 10:49:29 AM
Subject: Re: [TekScopes] 465M HV Regulator Question

Hey Barry,

actually there's a whole bunch of pictures, but only the first one is
linked.

Here are all the links that worked for me:
<http://pp5ms.com/tek_hv/0.jpg>
<http://pp5ms.com/tek_hv/1.jpg>
<http://pp5ms.com/tek_hv/2.jpg>
<http://pp5ms.com/tek_hv/3.jpg>
<http://pp5ms.com/tek_hv/4.jpg>
<http://pp5ms.com/tek_hv/5.jpg>
<http://pp5ms.com/tek_hv/6.jpg>
<http://pp5ms.com/tek_hv/7.jpg>
<http://pp5ms.com/tek_hv/8.jpg>
<http://pp5ms.com/tek_hv/9.jpg>
<http://pp5ms.com/tek_hv/10.jpg>
<http://pp5ms.com/tek_hv/11.jpg>
<http://pp5ms.com/tek_hv/12.jpg>

Siggi

On Mon, 25 Sep 2017 at 11:34 Barry n4buq@... [TekScopes] <
TekScopes@...> wrote:



Thanks for the link. Doesn't look like the X-ray reveals very much... :(

Apparently Q-Service and/or Sphere has had these before but no stock now
(didn't really expect to find them either...).

Thanks,
Barry - N4BUQ



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: 465M HV Regulator Question

Siggi
 

Hey Barry,

actually there's a whole bunch of pictures, but only the first one is
linked.

Here are all the links that worked for me:
<http://pp5ms.com/tek_hv/0.jpg>
<http://pp5ms.com/tek_hv/1.jpg>
<http://pp5ms.com/tek_hv/2.jpg>
<http://pp5ms.com/tek_hv/3.jpg>
<http://pp5ms.com/tek_hv/4.jpg>
<http://pp5ms.com/tek_hv/5.jpg>
<http://pp5ms.com/tek_hv/6.jpg>
<http://pp5ms.com/tek_hv/7.jpg>
<http://pp5ms.com/tek_hv/8.jpg>
<http://pp5ms.com/tek_hv/9.jpg>
<http://pp5ms.com/tek_hv/10.jpg>
<http://pp5ms.com/tek_hv/11.jpg>
<http://pp5ms.com/tek_hv/12.jpg>

Siggi

On Mon, 25 Sep 2017 at 11:34 Barry n4buq@... [TekScopes] <
TekScopes@...> wrote:



Thanks for the link. Doesn't look like the X-ray reveals very much... :(

Apparently Q-Service and/or Sphere has had these before but no stock now
(didn't really expect to find them either...).

Thanks,
Barry - N4BUQ


Re: 465M HV Regulator Question

n4buq
 

Thanks for the link. Doesn't look like the X-ray reveals very much... :(

Apparently Q-Service and/or Sphere has had these before but no stock now (didn't really expect to find them either...).

Thanks,
Barry - N4BUQ

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sigurður Ásgeirsson siggi@... [TekScopes]" <TekScopes@...>
To: TekScopes@...
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2017 10:25:10 AM
Subject: Re: [TekScopes] 465M HV Regulator Question

Dunno if this is the same device, but here <
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/tektronix-465/msg653070/#msg653070> is
a link to X-ray photos of the 465 tripler.

On Mon, 25 Sep 2017 at 10:54 Bert Haskins bhaskins@...
[TekScopes] <TekScopes@...> wrote:



On 9/25/2017 9:49 AM, Barry n4buq@... [TekScopes] wrote:

What I would do, is remove it, determine how the two sections are
partitioned, and take a milling
machine, and remove the tripler... them build a new one, and pot it
in
place...
I've done that before, Chuck, too. But with the 465M the tripler is
just part
of a whole lot of other
HV stuff potted in the same assembly. Looking at the schematic is
seems to be
a pretty unique
combination.

Craig
Interesting article from Deane Kidd about this very thing...

https://groups.io/g/TekScopes/message/9119?p=id,0,,20,2,118211,2338689&offset=

Thanks,
Barry - N4BUQ
The text is a little fuzzy at one point lets try:
The first capacitor goes from the anode of the first diode to the anode
of the third diode.

|---------- cap ----------|
| |
in o-----o-|>|----o----|>|-------o----|>|-----o-----&#92;/&#92;/&#92;/&#92;/&#92;/------o out
| |
cap cap
| |
---------o---------------------------------o
I have done a few of these in the past with good results.


Posted by: Barry <n4buq@...>
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Re: 465M HV Regulator Question

Siggi
 

Dunno if this is the same device, but here <
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/tektronix-465/msg653070/#msg653070> is
a link to X-ray photos of the 465 tripler.

On Mon, 25 Sep 2017 at 10:54 Bert Haskins bhaskins@...
[TekScopes] <TekScopes@...> wrote:



On 9/25/2017 9:49 AM, Barry n4buq@... [TekScopes] wrote:

What I would do, is remove it, determine how the two sections are
partitioned, and take a milling
machine, and remove the tripler... them build a new one, and pot it
in
place...
I've done that before, Chuck, too. But with the 465M the tripler is
just part
of a whole lot of other
HV stuff potted in the same assembly. Looking at the schematic is
seems to be
a pretty unique
combination.

Craig
Interesting article from Deane Kidd about this very thing...

https://groups.io/g/TekScopes/message/9119?p=id,0,,20,2,118211,2338689&offset=

Thanks,
Barry - N4BUQ
The text is a little fuzzy at one point lets try:
The first capacitor goes from the anode of the first diode to the anode
of the third diode.

|---------- cap ----------|
| |
in o-----o-|>|----o----|>|-------o----|>|-----o-----&#92;/&#92;/&#92;/&#92;/&#92;/------o out
| |
cap cap
| |
---------o---------------------------------o
I have done a few of these in the past with good results.


Posted by: Barry <n4buq@...>
----------------------------------------------------------
Reply via web post
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Re: Behaviour of 7000-series timebases

cmjones01
 

On 24 Sep 2017 1:34 a.m., "Harvey White madyn@... [TekScopes]"
<TekScopes@...> wrote:



On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 21:55:20 +0200, you wrote:

The idea I'm playing with is to put together something for decoding serial
data streams. Lots of modern DSOs can do this, and it would be useful to
me, but I don't want to buy a modern DSO when my 7000-series gear is so
excellent at finding the signal I want, and I've already got it. These
thoughts and experiments confirm, I think, that all the right signals to do
this are present with a bit of analog adaptation and some FPGA fiddling.
You'd be happier with a logic analyzer. They'll do state. You want
to use the FPGA/CPLD to go from time domain to state. You either do
state, or feed it to a microprocessor and get very smart decoding.

I've got a couple of 16500Bs with various useful cards which I use from
time to time, and they work well for parallel logic. However, a feature
I've seen on lots of modern digital scopes is the ability to decode a few
bytes of serial data from the trace. This would be really handy while
probing around. Since an analogue scope is my weapon of choice for probing
around, I'd really like to have something like that decoding ability built
in. It would be great for basic sanity checks: have I configured this port
correctly? Are the bits in the right order? That sort of thing.

Chris

Re: 465M HV Regulator Question

Bert Haskins
 

On 9/25/2017 9:49 AM, Barry n4buq@... [TekScopes] wrote:

What I would do, is remove it, determine how the two sections are
partitioned, and take a milling
machine, and remove the tripler... them build a new one, and pot it in
place...
I've done that before, Chuck, too. But with the 465M the tripler is
just part
of a whole lot of other
HV stuff potted in the same assembly. Looking at the schematic is
seems to be
a pretty unique
combination.

Craig
Interesting article from Deane Kidd about this very thing...

https://groups.io/g/TekScopes/message/9119?p=id,0,,20,2,118211,2338689&offset=

Thanks,
Barry - N4BUQ
The text is a little fuzzy at one point lets try:
The first capacitor goes from the anode of the first diode to the anode
of the third diode.

|---------- cap ----------|
| |
in o-----o-|>|----o----|>|-------o----|>|-----o-----&#92;/&#92;/&#92;/&#92;/&#92;/------o out
| |
cap cap
| |
---------o---------------------------------o
I have done a few of these in the past with good results.


Posted by: Barry <n4buq@...>
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