Date   

Re: Test, disregard

 

You know on many internet groups that title results in one of the most long and popular threads ever, right ?

LOL


Re: Repairing plated through holes.

 

On Fri, Jun 15, 2018 at 07:28 pm, lop pol wrote:


I would like to affordably put together the things needed to repair plated
through holes.
In hifi audio restoration circles they have a process they call "pinning". This is used on Marantz Dolby decoder boards and other things that were two sided but only had plated through, no rivets, gripplets or anything.

All it is is to identify all the vias and stick a wire through, solder it on both sides and then trim it. It works. It can be tedious though, and they charge $$$ to do it. But their customers are the most picky, persnickety anal customers in the world sometimes. But then they pay, like hundreds for simply speaker wires.

Even though they charge good money for "pinning", it is cheap. All it takes is a bunch of those leftover leads you cut off resistors and whatever after you put them in a board. You DO save those right ? If not, the length needed is so short you can do many connections and only ruin one new resistor.

I don't see a viable (no pun) automatic way of doing it, RE-wave soldering won't work, or the problem would have never happened in the first place.

Seems like the problem isn't as bad now, as if the process got improved or something. I have worked on plenty of two sided boards and really not had a problem with the vias. Maybe they are somehow putting more copper into those holes,. I don't know. but I do know that in the past these things were problematic.

Thing is, on a given board, just how many do you have to do ?


Re: Repairing plated through holes.

 

On Sat, Jun 16, 2018 at 10:44 am, Michael A. Terrell wrote:


Delco used the 'griplet' in one or two model years. They were a disaster.
GE used them in TVs and they were a disaster there as well. they used them in the elcheapo AA, AB series' and the EC series which was not quite as cheap. They probably got tired of fixing them in warranty, and by the time they came out with the P series they used jumper wires, abandoning the "gripplets" as they called them.


Test, disregard

EB4APL
 

Is this msg being accepted?


Re: NEW to the group

EB4APL
 

I remember it quite well, I was 17 years old and we were almost nuked by an ally.

In fact it dropped not one but four H bombs (B28RI) because the B-52 plane carrying them crashed with the KC-135 tanker who was resupplying it. Both fell to the ground in flames, and no one from the KC-135 crew survived and 3 from the B52 also died. This happened on Jan 19, 1966.

Two bombs fell in parachutes and the other two in free fall. About the the parachuted bombs, one landed safely on the ground and was recovered almost intact, the other fell in the sea and took 80 days to recover it in a frenetic rescue operation to avoid that other country (USSR ? ) could find it. A local fisherman, "Bomb Frank" since then, who had rescued with his ship one of the B-52 crew members and had seen where the bomb fell, assisted the US Navy to pinpoint the bomb location.

The two bombs which fell without parachute crashed in the ground in Palomares, a small village in the south of Spain. As a result of the crash, the conventional explosives detonated but the thermonuclear charge did not set off. In fact, that created an unintentional "dirty bomb" which contaminated with plutonium more than a sq. mile of agricultural land.

The casings of the recovered bombs are in a museum in Albuquerque, NM. Wikipedia has a lot of info about this incident at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1966_Palomares_B-52_crash

Regards,

Ignacio EB4APL


Re: Up to date capacitor list for Tek 2465A and 2465B scopes (2018)

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the strawman Dorothy's friend in Wizard of Oz?

Wasn't he also an electronics technician, repairing capacitors in the Tin-man?
He must have an opinion about this - let's ask him!


Re: Up to date capacitor list for Tek 2465A and 2465B scopes (2018)

Chuck Harris
 

Can you say "Strawman argument?"

-Chuck Harris

M Yachad wrote:

Chuck

“You didn't listen to what I said about the electrolyte.”

On the contrary, I “listened” and paid close attention. I even quoted each part of your message, and commented on it in detail.

In the West, I understand that the cultural term “to listen to somebody” sometimes means to hear them, to pay attention, then to AGREE with them, and to DO as they say.

Here, culturally, “to listen” means to pay attention only. There is NO obligation whatsoever to agree with the speaker, or to do as he says.

So I have definitely listened to you, paid attention to you, but I am under no obligation to agree with you, even if you put forward what on the face of it, is a convincing argument, but is lacking in substance, proof and facts.

“The corrosive, to copper, electrolyte in 105C capacitors makes a mess out of copper, but does nothing to aluminum and aluminum oxide. An electrolyte can be corrosive to one material, and totally benign to another.”

Chemistry 101. No argument at all.

Chemicon’s problem was the electrolyte destroying the capacitors from within, causing widespread shorts. The copper traces of the PCB’s were unaffected. That modern failure is highly relevant to our discussion. Furthermore, that shocked the EE community, because Chemicon is one of the most reliable manufacturer's out there, and was generally trusted to do their homework, so that crap like that shouldn't happen.

The 90’s failure of counterfeit electrolyte (Chinese manufacturers) is well-known, and may or may not have caused shorts when venting – however there is not sufficient absolutely empirical evidence backed up with any manufacturer's data, to make a general claim.

“When you operate a modern electrolytic capacitor on lower than its nominal voltage rating, it is not harmed, and it does not change in any way.”

That’s appears to be a convincing claim, but unless you can support that with absolute proof across all manufacturers, I cannot accept that. Chemicon’s case refutes your assumption in its entirety.

“Today's 25V capacitor is yesterdays 50V capacitor.”

Can you offer any proof for that claim?

“If the electrolyte was as corrosive as you imagine, my bags of NOS capacitors would have all eaten away their aluminum oxide dielectric and all be short circuit. They are not. They are as good as the day they were made. Electrolytic capacitors from 40-50 years ago would be long gone in similar circumstances.”

I do not accept your supposition. You have a fact on the ground, and you have chosen a very convenient reasoning to “support” the fact, but you know as well as I, that there is no proven relationship between the apparently "good" condition of your capacitors and the propensity of a given electrolyte to corrode under a working voltage load. Have you checked Dissipation, tangent and impedance of each capacitor against the manufacturer's data? Have you run the capacitor at the extreme temperature limits specified, and then rechecked the performance? Until you have that substantial empirical data, your claim is unsubstantiated.

“You are limiting your choices based on imagined problems.”
That’s your conclusion, not mine. I have spent many years in a sensitive manufacturing environment under tight tolerances, and engineers were "encouraged" to research their proposals to be watertight if they wanted them to be considered for inclusion in production. Instead of hampering and discouraging suggestions, that policy caused excellence in the extreme.

-Chuck Harris

“OBTW, Nichicon of 1975 is a far different company from Nichicon of 2018. Dare we compare Tektronix of 1965 to the Tektronix of today? Neither company has any of the original founders, nor their instincts for quality, involved today.”

Would you like to stand up in court and defend that statement against Nichicon’s lawyers? I doubt it. Tek, I’ll agree with you. But using Tek's decline to stretch your reasoning to apply to Nichicon as well, is pushing your confidence into a very dangerous zone.

In short, you haven’t provided me with any empirical statistically relevant proof that I should change my conservative habits.

I’ll leave you with one thought. In light of your proposal to use massively overrated capacitors in all applications, then in these days of excessive cost-cutting and profiteering, one may propose to Nichicon’s management: Produce only capacitors rated at 35V (smallest physical size 5mmx11mm), 63V (8mmx15mm) 100V (10mmx20mm). What a fantastic savings in production costs! Why have no capacitor manufacturers streamlined production like that? The profit potential must be enormous.
AND the BoM of appliance manufacturers would be vastly simplified. More profits.

No, I suggest to you that there are things that we don’t always know about, in spite of your best intentions, and walking the tried and true path is the honest way to deliver best value to my customers.

There are reasons and considerations we don’t even know about, and even if failures occur, nobody is going to admit responsibility.

This discussion has been stimulating, however, I remain unconvinced, and I will continue to use capacitors correctly matched to actual circuit voltage.

Any other users who choose to go overboard and install a 330uF 160V cap in a place where a 25V cap is required, is not only wasting his hard-earned money substantially, but may discover at some future point in time that the circuit becomes unstable. Or, he may not. I’ll leave it up to users who choose those highly overrated caps, to post their experience in a few years. I’m not holding my breath.

Menahem


Re: Up to date capacitor list for Tek 2465A and 2465B scopes (2018)

 

Chuck

“You didn't listen to what I said about the electrolyte.”

On the contrary, I “listened” and paid close attention. I even quoted each part of your message, and commented on it in detail.

In the West, I understand that the cultural term “to listen to somebody” sometimes means to hear them, to pay attention, then to AGREE with them, and to DO as they say.

Here, culturally, “to listen” means to pay attention only. There is NO obligation whatsoever to agree with the speaker, or to do as he says.

So I have definitely listened to you, paid attention to you, but I am under no obligation to agree with you, even if you put forward what on the face of it, is a convincing argument, but is lacking in substance, proof and facts.

“The corrosive, to copper, electrolyte in 105C capacitors makes a mess out of copper, but does nothing to aluminum and aluminum oxide. An electrolyte can be corrosive to one material, and totally benign to another.”

Chemistry 101. No argument at all.

Chemicon’s problem was the electrolyte destroying the capacitors from within, causing widespread shorts. The copper traces of the PCB’s were unaffected. That modern failure is highly relevant to our discussion. Furthermore, that shocked the EE community, because Chemicon is one of the most reliable manufacturer's out there, and was generally trusted to do their homework, so that crap like that shouldn't happen.

The 90’s failure of counterfeit electrolyte (Chinese manufacturers) is well-known, and may or may not have caused shorts when venting – however there is not sufficient absolutely empirical evidence backed up with any manufacturer's data, to make a general claim.

“When you operate a modern electrolytic capacitor on lower than its nominal voltage rating, it is not harmed, and it does not change in any way.”

That’s appears to be a convincing claim, but unless you can support that with absolute proof across all manufacturers, I cannot accept that. Chemicon’s case refutes your assumption in its entirety.

“Today's 25V capacitor is yesterdays 50V capacitor.”

Can you offer any proof for that claim?

“If the electrolyte was as corrosive as you imagine, my bags of NOS capacitors would have all eaten away their aluminum oxide dielectric and all be short circuit. They are not. They are as good as the day they were made. Electrolytic capacitors from 40-50 years ago would be long gone in similar circumstances.”

I do not accept your supposition. You have a fact on the ground, and you have chosen a very convenient reasoning to “support” the fact, but you know as well as I, that there is no proven relationship between the apparently "good" condition of your capacitors and the propensity of a given electrolyte to corrode under a working voltage load. Have you checked Dissipation, tangent and impedance of each capacitor against the manufacturer's data? Have you run the capacitor at the extreme temperature limits specified, and then rechecked the performance? Until you have that substantial empirical data, your claim is unsubstantiated.

“You are limiting your choices based on imagined problems.”
That’s your conclusion, not mine. I have spent many years in a sensitive manufacturing environment under tight tolerances, and engineers were "encouraged" to research their proposals to be watertight if they wanted them to be considered for inclusion in production. Instead of hampering and discouraging suggestions, that policy caused excellence in the extreme.

-Chuck Harris

“OBTW, Nichicon of 1975 is a far different company from Nichicon of 2018. Dare we compare Tektronix of 1965 to the Tektronix of today? Neither company has any of the original founders, nor their instincts for quality, involved today.”

Would you like to stand up in court and defend that statement against Nichicon’s lawyers? I doubt it. Tek, I’ll agree with you. But using Tek's decline to stretch your reasoning to apply to Nichicon as well, is pushing your confidence into a very dangerous zone.

In short, you haven’t provided me with any empirical statistically relevant proof that I should change my conservative habits.

I’ll leave you with one thought. In light of your proposal to use massively overrated capacitors in all applications, then in these days of excessive cost-cutting and profiteering, one may propose to Nichicon’s management: Produce only capacitors rated at 35V (smallest physical size 5mmx11mm), 63V (8mmx15mm) 100V (10mmx20mm). What a fantastic savings in production costs! Why have no capacitor manufacturers streamlined production like that? The profit potential must be enormous.
AND the BoM of appliance manufacturers would be vastly simplified. More profits.

No, I suggest to you that there are things that we don’t always know about, in spite of your best intentions, and walking the tried and true path is the honest way to deliver best value to my customers.

There are reasons and considerations we don’t even know about, and even if failures occur, nobody is going to admit responsibility.

This discussion has been stimulating, however, I remain unconvinced, and I will continue to use capacitors correctly matched to actual circuit voltage.

Any other users who choose to go overboard and install a 330uF 160V cap in a place where a 25V cap is required, is not only wasting his hard-earned money substantially, but may discover at some future point in time that the circuit becomes unstable. Or, he may not. I’ll leave it up to users who choose those highly overrated caps, to post their experience in a few years. I’m not holding my breath.

Menahem


Re: Repairing plated through holes.

Dave Brown
 

Tektronix used eyelets/rivets on their first PCBs and abandoned the practice
because of failures. I think the mechanism is a difference in thermal
expansion that eventually cracks the soldering. I repair JVC TT-101
turntables from the 80's. They used eyelets/rivets on a two sided unplated
board. My standard repair practice is simply to resolder every eyelet/rivet
and then test it and that always fixes them. I have no more information on
the failure mechanism.



I do my plated through hole repairs simply with 30 gauge wire through the
hole and soldered on both the top and bottom. I also have to do this on
unplated boards when adding a socket as the original required soldering on
both the top and bottom.



Dave


549 in Orange, California

Kurt Rosenfeld
 


Re: Repairing plated through holes.

Michael A. Terrell
 

Delco used the 'griplet' in one or two model years. They were a disaster. They sent out a service bulletin, and paid a set price to repair those AM/FM radios. They were plated steel, so you had to run wires through them.

I have some of the Pace eyelets out in my shop, but the roof lead in the parts room, and the floor was particleboard, covered with old carpet so the shelving went through the floor and stuff went everywhere. A local vocational school used the Pace system, and a kit of materials were issued to each new student. The teacher gave me the leftovers from kids who dropped the course.


Michael A. Terrell

-----Original Message-----
From: Glenn Little <glennmaillist@...>
Sent: Jun 16, 2018 12:03 PM
To: TekScopes@groups.io
Subject: Re: [TekScopes] Repairing plated through holes.

Pace made a "fused eyelet setter" .
This was an eyelet staking tool that ran high current, low voltage
through the eyelet after the eyelet was staked and while the eyelet was
still under compression.
This fused the flared part of the eyelet to the lands.
Motorola used eyeletted boards in some of their two way radios.
This was the major source of failure as the eyelet solder connection
broke free of the lands.
The fix for this was to resolder all of the eyeletted connections on
both the top and bottom of the board.

One source of PCB repair things is

https://www.paceworldwide.com/products/circuit-level-repair?page=1


Re: Repairing plated through holes.

Harvey White
 

On Sat, 16 Jun 2018 17:46:28 +0200, you wrote:

You can still buy the pop rivet nuts, but much more $$ than that.
You said they use an adapter, I have never seen that. Around here you
need to buy a dedicated rivet nut tool for around $100 (which looks
much like a slightly modified $20 pop rivet tool).

I always speculated that they are set just like a pop rivet, but with
a threaded rod instead of the discardable metal shank in a regular
rivet.
My plan was, should I ever need to set a rivet nut, that I would take
a hard screw and put that in the rivet, and pull on the screw from the
outside with a washer and a nut.

Do you have any opinion if that plan might succeed? I have been
curious about it for years.
It will, but the friction on the threads is likely to strip them if
you don't use a screw long enough to fully engage the nut. I'd also
worry about torque spinning the thing.

You should be able to find the tools on ali-baba, or the local
equivalent.

Harvey



ST

On Sat, Jun 16, 2018 at 5:40 PM, Michael A. Terrell
<mike.terrell@...> wrote:
They also made the rivnut,which is an internally threaded version of a pop rivet that used an adapter to set with a pop rivet tool. I used them in some projects. I wished that I had boght more of them, surplus. They were 50 cents/100 in USM boxes.


Michael A. Terrell


Re: Repairing plated through holes.

Michael A. Terrell
 

I had two sizes, one for 6-32 that used the small hole. the other was for 10-32, and it used the large hole. they were just a smooth, hardened steel shank, with just enough threads at one end to reach the bottom of the Rivnut. I got the small one in the boxes of 100, and the large one was in a retail pack of 25.

<http://www.8thcivic.com/forums/diy-honda-civic-interior-style-mods/93298-diy-rivnut-puller-install-trunk-cargo-net.html>

This page shows how to do it with a bolt, two washers and two nuts. One nut is oversized, and is just a spacer. I would use the right size of drill stop, and that would eliminate the large nut and one washer.

They were over $10.00 a box, but that surplus dealer had over 1000 boxes that were likely bought by the pound like the other hardware. there were 100 boxes per case, and I should have bought a case, instead of four boxes.

Michael A. Terrell

-----Original Message-----
From: stefan_trethan <stefan_trethan@...>
Sent: Jun 16, 2018 11:46 AM
To: TekScopes@groups.io
Subject: Re: [TekScopes] Repairing plated through holes.

You can still buy the pop rivet nuts, but much more $$ than that.
You said they use an adapter, I have never seen that. Around here you
need to buy a dedicated rivet nut tool for around $100 (which looks
much like a slightly modified $20 pop rivet tool).

I always speculated that they are set just like a pop rivet, but with
a threaded rod instead of the discardable metal shank in a regular
rivet.
My plan was, should I ever need to set a rivet nut, that I would take
a hard screw and put that in the rivet, and pull on the screw from the
outside with a washer and a nut.

Do you have any opinion if that plan might succeed? I have been
curious about it for years.

ST

On Sat, Jun 16, 2018 at 5:40 PM, Michael A. Terrell
<mike.terrell@...> wrote:
They also made the rivnut,which is an internally threaded version of a pop rivet that used an adapter to set with a pop rivet tool. I used them in some projects. I wished that I had boght more of them, surplus. They were 50 cents/100 in USM boxes.


Re: Repairing plated through holes.

Harvey White
 

On Sat, 16 Jun 2018 11:40:15 -0400 (GMT-04:00), you wrote:

They also made the rivnut,which is an internally threaded version of a pop rivet that used an adapter to set with a pop rivet tool. I used them in some projects. I wished that I had boght more of them, surplus. They were 50 cents/100 in USM boxes.
Harbor freight has them, aluminum, of course. Amazon seems to have
tons of them, but not at 50 cents/100, sadly.

Harvey




Michael A. Terrell


-----Original Message-----
From: "ebrucehunter via Groups.Io" <Brucekareen=aol.com@groups.io>
Sent: Jun 16, 2018 10:46 AM
To: TekScopes@groups.io
Subject: Re: [TekScopes] Repairing plated through holes.


About 50 years ago I purchased an eyelet press from Kepco, a company that then sold printed circuit board materials. At the time they offered a variety of different diameter rivets, of different lengths, and in both copper and brass. The press came with a number of special tips needed for the different size rivets. I was later able to fabricate special tips to also set Vector, rivet-type terminals.


Unfortunately, as a previous contributor has remarked, these eyelets almost always eventually gave trouble if not carefully soldered to the foil on both sides. Even soldered eyelets sometimes gave trouble, probably because, as another has mentioned, you need a little space under the head for solder to properly flow.


In looking at the press, I saw something I had never noticed before. The press was made in Italy by United Shoe Machinery, the company that made eyeletting machinery for the shoe industry and the original developer of the pop-rivet.



Bruce, KG6OJI


Re: S6 Sampling Head Bridge Cavity Question

Peter H
 

If I look back on my life it has been filled with similar behavior. There are
two possible outcomes: 1) I admit that I broke it (whatever it was) and I have
to face the consequences, or 2) I have an "Oh Shit" moment followed by a
desperate scramble to first figure out what happened and then I start a
desperate search for a solution.
Oh but you are definitely not alone on that ;-)

I had a good laugh when I saw https://xkcd.com/1994/ which (apart from the time axis scaling) seemed awfully familiar ...

Cheers
Peter


Re: Repairing plated through holes.

 

Mouser stocks several sizes of staking tools from Keystone that might come in handy. Not really cheap, but I have one of the sets (don't remember which one) that I use when I need to stake a terminal onto a PCB. Keystone part nos TL-20, TL-21 and TL-22. These are made primarily for staking turret terminals onto a PCB, but also work well with larfer eyelets and rivets.

Cheers,
Dave M

On Sat, Jun 16, 2018 at 04:48 am, lop pol wrote:


On Sat, Jun 16, 2018 at 03:27 am, David M wrote:


Search Ebay for Copper Via Rivets. They are available in several diameters
and lengths. You'll have to come up with your own method and tooling to
stake
them to the PCB, but shouldn't be difficult.
Small nails, small hole punch, etc. should to the trick. Yankee ingenuity
rules.

Cheers,
Dave M

On Fri, Jun 15, 2018 at 07:28 pm, lop pol wrote:


I would like to affordably put together the things needed to repair plated
through holes. Anyone have any thoughts? I'm asking because I dont want
to
buy this more than once. My pocket has not much room for mistakes right
now
and i seem to do a lot better asking here before buying. Thanks guys
Ok. That is what I will do. The rivets/eyelets are really cheap most under .25
cents a piece at Mouser. I have a bunch of different punches so I will figure
something out. Thanks for the input.


Re: Up to date capacitor list for Tek 2465A and 2465B scopes (2018)

Timothy
 

Lots of parts leads to confusion, its all good. Once this is done it will be good for a year or two at least.

Here is another correction
C1113 180 µF 40 ELCTLT 330 µF 50
C1114 250 µF 100 ELCTLT 330 µF 50

Should be...
C1113 180 µF 100 ELCTLT 330 µF 160
C1114 250 µF 100 ELCTLT 330 µF 160

To the A5 listing please add:
C2010 33 µf 10 ELCTLT 33 µF 10

I have not looked at the A1 board yet, but I will let you know if I find anything there


Re: Tek 2337 (looks mint) on Goodwill.

Artekmedia <manuals@...>
 

Looks like it is very clean, If I still lived in Ft worth I'd run over and turn it on to check it out. has probes and all.

100MHz Analog Scope ( later 150MHz version I think) plus a built in DMM
More info over on Tekwiki

Godwill in the auction business ..who knew

-DC
manuals@...

On 6/16/2018 11:47 AM, David Berlind wrote:
I'm sure everyone here has seen one of these. But I haven't. Is it some sort of hack of a digital scope? It looks mint (and cool).

https://www.shopgoodwill.com/Item/53877130

I have no affiliation with the seller.


--
Dave
Manuals@...
www.ArtekManuals.com


Re: Repairing plated through holes.

Glenn Little
 

Pace made a "fused eyelet setter" .
This was an eyelet staking tool that ran high current, low voltage through the eyelet after the eyelet was staked and while the eyelet was still under compression.
This fused the flared part of the eyelet to the lands.
Motorola used eyeletted boards in some of their two way radios.
This was the major source of failure as the eyelet solder connection broke free of the lands.
The fix for this was to resolder all of the eyeletted connections on both the top and bottom of the board.

One source of PCB repair things is

https://www.paceworldwide.com/products/circuit-level-repair?page=1

Glenn

On 6/15/2018 10:28 PM, lop pol via Groups.Io wrote:
I would like to affordably put together the things needed to repair plated through holes. Anyone have any thoughts? I'm asking because I dont want to buy this more than onct setter"e. My pocket has not much room for mistakes right now and i seem to do a lot better asking here before buying. Thanks guys


--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Glenn Little ARRL Technical Specialist QCWA LM 28417
Amateur Callsign: WB4UIV wb4uiv@... AMSAT LM 2178
QTH: Goose Creek, SC USA (EM92xx) USSVI LM NRA LM SBE ARRL TAPR
"It is not the class of license that the Amateur holds but the class
of the Amateur that holds the license"


Tek 2337 (looks mint) on Goodwill.

David Berlind
 

I'm sure everyone here has seen one of these. But I haven't. Is it some sort of hack of a digital scope? It looks mint (and cool).

https://www.shopgoodwill.com/Item/53877130

I have no affiliation with the seller.