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Re: What is a Tek Clone? Russian?

Carlos
 

--- In TekScopes@..., Art Rivard <art0matic@...> wrote:

I just looked at book 3 of the Russian series in another post.  Here's the link again:

http://publ. lib.ru/ARCHIVES/ N/NASONOV_ V._S/_Nasonov_ V.S..html

(To unload, simply click on the Djv-ZIP written in blue letters after the bold black letter title)
I have to say that the Russians were clearly influenced by Tek, HP, and others.  But that's the point, they had dozens of models that all appear to be original designs, and if they saw a good idea elsewhere they used it.  They had plug-in scopes that strongly resemble Tek 530/40 series, and HP 175.  Some of my favorites are: p 47 reminds me of a 453, p 85 of a 531, and p91 a CA.  But in no case are they clones, there's too many differences.  I've personally seen the portable on p62, and was quite favorably impressed!  The pots were all sealed, the switch contacts were gold CLAD, the CRT geometry was perfect with a tiny spot size, and the pcb's were neat and clean.  The only shortcomings were the cosmetics were not up to usual western standards, with some ill-fitting sheet metal and mold marks on castings hastily ground off.  The manual was in English, too!  I also examined but did not see in this book what might be competition for the 213, i.e.
a small portable with DMM that displays on the CRT!   
I find it quite interesting how a whole world of technology developed in Russia and stayed there.  Except for a few tube types with a large user base.  I like to imagine that if someone brought over a container of Russian equipment and manuals to Dayton, it would sell (at the right price, of course).  I understand that they do a fine job with power tubes, and that some types are still restricted from foreign sale or export.  They make some nice rocket engines like the RD-180, but that's for another group.
Art
I agree with you, Art. There's a whole world of technology unknown for most of us on that side of the world. They also have a huge editorial production on electronics: books and series of books for all levels, and several electronics-related magazines (as an example, they started the book series "Radiolibrary for the masses" in 1947, and at this time they have published more than 1200 books just in this series).

Some photos of a more modern russian oscilloscope, a 100 MHz model C1-99 from 1989 can be seen on this site:

http://wd4eui.com/Russian_Oscilloscope.html

Carlos
Re: 7A13 woes

David Hess
 

Offhand I am not sure what could cause that problem that could be
shared between an extender and a mainframe slot. I have used my own
extender with my 7A13 and several different mainframes and different
slots without issues. I think I would take a close look at the power
supply and ground voltages at the plug-in connector referenced to the
oscilloscope chassis ground.

As far as drift and stability, I would still do the wet cotton swab
test to find any suspicious dual transistors. The natural suspect is
the input FET since the input protection network was bad.

On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 01:47:18 -0000, "keithostertag"
<keitho@...> wrote:

Hi David- After spending practically the entire weekend tweaking, changing something, re-tweaking, changing something, starting over ad nauseum... I found that I had been dealing with two simultaneous unknown equipment problems. The 7A13 problem as described with photos last post (DC bias) was being caused by (1) a fault in my homemade extender, and (2) without using the extender only occurs in the left vertical of my 7844.

It took me all weekend to figure this out because I was making the assumption that the 7844 was not a problem. I had tested the 7A13 without the extender several times, but I always used the left vertical bay just out of habit. Later today I decided to try using my R7903, and that's when I found that both the extender and the left vertical on the 7844 were coincidently (and separately) causing that particular problem. I.e. neither the R7903 nor the right vertical of the 7844 exhibit that particular DC bias problem with the 7A13. With the extender I get those results in any vertical slot on either of my mainframes; without using the extender I only get those results in the left vertical of my 7844.

I haven't yet found the problem with the extender- one would think it would be easy since it is simply a bunch of leads wired straight from one end to the other... but I have found no shorts or opens. Curious that the exact same results were being obtained by these two separate equipment faults- I wonder what might be common with the extender and that bay that would produce the exact same level and type of DC bias problem?

I do own a pulse generator, but it is marginal :-(.

The slant top and bottom of the square wave now appears to not be as dramatic as first thought. I'm still looking into that. This appears to be unrelated to the above, and possibly intermittent.

I did go through the thermal balance procedure as you recommended, but with no obvious improvements.

At this point my major problem with the 7A13 continues to be drift and the inability to get a stable reference trace (that doesn't change when varying v/d or coupling).

Thanks,
Keith

--- In TekScopes@..., David <davidwhess@...> wrote:

Do you have a variable frequency square wave source you can use like a
function or pulse generator? At lower frequencies than the
oscilloscope calibrator, it would be interesting to see if that "tilt"
actually has an exponential characteristic and how large the time
constant is.

I am thinking that the baseline shift you are seeing is connected with
the tilt and the long warm up time. If one of the differential
transistor pairs lacks good offset voltage versus temperature
characteristics, then when the transistor temperature changes do to
operating point change with signal level, the offset voltage will
change shifting the baseline. That could be caused by damage, bad
matching, or bias current mismatch.

Try operating the 7A13 until it is warmed up and then touching
different differential and matched pairs (maybe using a damp cotton
swab) to see if one in particular causes more baseline shift with
temperature than the others.

You may want to try fiddling with the Thermal Balance (R196 starting
on page 5-24) and Overdrive Thermal Compensation (R167 starting on
page 5-14).

On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 01:41:55 -0000, "keithostertag"
<keitho@...> wrote:

Hi David-

Thank you so much for explaining these things to me.

Yes, I have verified that the cal square wave out on my 7844 is actually swinging from ground to 40mV. I used both my 465B and R7903 to check it. This is also how I know the cal out on my 7844 is really square, not the slant top&bottom shown in the photos from the 7A13.

The trace does not shift when connecting a 50 ohm terminator to either input set to GND.

I tee'd the cal out to both channels, then put both channels into DC coupling. Zeroed, back to the center ground ref line. Same when switching to AC coupling. All the way down to 1mV/div.

RE: the X10 trim. Depends somewhat on how long the unit has warmed up. It seems to take 30 minutes or more to stabilise, and if I need for some reason to momentarily turn off the scope to unplug the 7A13 for any reason, it then requires another 30 minutes or so to warm up again before it stabalises. So some of my figures and images will reflect drifting that hasn't stabalised yet. For some reason the 2mV and 5mV settings won't zero with the rest.

Thanks,
Keith


--- In TekScopes@..., David <davidwhess@> wrote:

On Sat, 25 Aug 2012 23:41:44 -0000, "keithostertag"
<keitho@> wrote:

Hi David-

Maybe a photo will better explain what I meant:

http://www.strucktower.com/7a13-3443.jpg

The signal going into the +Input is offset negatively by about .8mV.

Switching the same signal to the -Input, the signal going into the -Input is offset positively by about the same amount. This is after centering at GND.
Can you verify that the calibrator signal is actually swinging from
ground to 40mV? Which oscilloscope model is the calibrator signal
coming from?

Does the trace shift when the inputs are set to DC coupling and you
short either input to ground like with a 50 ohm load?

Do you have any way to connect both inputs to the calibrator signal at
the same time like with a BNC T adapter? That will allow checking the
DC and AC common mode rejection.

Maybe I misunderstand how the 10X control works?
I had the same misunderstanding until I rebuilt and studied my 7A13.

See this photo:

http://www.strucktower.com/7a13-3436.jpg

I am assuming that if I input a 4mV square signal and it displays 1/2 division, then if I simply pull out the 10X knob I should see 5 divisions, is that correct? That is not what's happening as you can see. Also, note the Readout doesn't change.
Pulling out the x10 control does NOT change the sensitivity. The
readout deflection factor shown is correct and does not change.

Instead it adds x10 attenuation to the input attenuator and removes
x10 attenuation from the x10 attenuator built around K60 and K61. That
results in 10 times more noise (the trace will be thicker) and more
drift but also allows 10 times more input common mode range and input
offset range. This is incredibly useful when using x1 probes

The x10 in/out picture you linked looks normal to me although the x10
balance is not completely trimmed.

I swapped K60 with K61 and went through the above again with no changes. I had hoped that there might be replacements in an old 7A12 that Rob gave me for parts (thanks Rob!) but they are 148-0034, not 148-0035 (different number of pins). Hmm... can I just snip the extra pins?
Based on the above picture I think the relays are fine.
Re: What is a Tek Clone? Russian?

art0matic
 

I just looked at book 3 of the Russian series in another post.  Here's the link again:

http://publ. lib.ru/ARCHIVES/ N/NASONOV_ V._S/_Nasonov_ V.S..html

(To unload, simply click on the Djv-ZIP written in blue letters after the bold black letter title)

I have to say that the Russians were clearly influenced by Tek, HP, and others.  But that's the point, they had dozens of models that all appear to be original designs, and if they saw a good idea elsewhere they used it.  They had plug-in scopes that strongly resemble Tek 530/40 series, and HP 175.  Some of my favorites are: p 47 reminds me of a 453, p 85 of a 531, and p91 a CA.  But in no case are they clones, there's too many differences.  I've personally seen the portable on p62, and was quite favorably impressed!  The pots were all sealed, the switch contacts were gold CLAD, the CRT geometry was perfect with a tiny spot size, and the pcb's were neat and clean.  The only shortcomings were the cosmetics were not up to usual western standards, with some ill-fitting sheet metal and mold marks on castings hastily ground off.  The manual was in English, too!  I also examined but did not see in this book what might be competition for the 213, i.e. a small portable with DMM that displays on the CRT!   

I find it quite interesting how a whole world of technology developed in Russia and stayed there.  Except for a few tube types with a large user base.  I like to imagine that if someone brought over a container of Russian equipment and manuals to Dayton, it would sell (at the right price, of course).  I understand that they do a fine job with power tubes, and that some types are still restricted from foreign sale or export.  They make some nice rocket engines like the RD-180, but that's for another group.

Art
Re: 7A13 woes

keithostertag <keitho@...>
 

Hi David- After spending practically the entire weekend tweaking, changing something, re-tweaking, changing something, starting over ad nauseum... I found that I had been dealing with two simultaneous unknown equipment problems. The 7A13 problem as described with photos last post (DC bias) was being caused by (1) a fault in my homemade extender, and (2) without using the extender only occurs in the left vertical of my 7844.

It took me all weekend to figure this out because I was making the assumption that the 7844 was not a problem. I had tested the 7A13 without the extender several times, but I always used the left vertical bay just out of habit. Later today I decided to try using my R7903, and that's when I found that both the extender and the left vertical on the 7844 were coincidently (and separately) causing that particular problem. I.e. neither the R7903 nor the right vertical of the 7844 exhibit that particular DC bias problem with the 7A13. With the extender I get those results in any vertical slot on either of my mainframes; without using the extender I only get those results in the left vertical of my 7844.

I haven't yet found the problem with the extender- one would think it would be easy since it is simply a bunch of leads wired straight from one end to the other... but I have found no shorts or opens. Curious that the exact same results were being obtained by these two separate equipment faults- I wonder what might be common with the extender and that bay that would produce the exact same level and type of DC bias problem?

I do own a pulse generator, but it is marginal :-(.

The slant top and bottom of the square wave now appears to not be as dramatic as first thought. I'm still looking into that. This appears to be unrelated to the above, and possibly intermittent.

I did go through the thermal balance procedure as you recommended, but with no obvious improvements.

At this point my major problem with the 7A13 continues to be drift and the inability to get a stable reference trace (that doesn't change when varying v/d or coupling).

Thanks,
Keith

--- In TekScopes@..., David <davidwhess@...> wrote:

Do you have a variable frequency square wave source you can use like a
function or pulse generator? At lower frequencies than the
oscilloscope calibrator, it would be interesting to see if that "tilt"
actually has an exponential characteristic and how large the time
constant is.

I am thinking that the baseline shift you are seeing is connected with
the tilt and the long warm up time. If one of the differential
transistor pairs lacks good offset voltage versus temperature
characteristics, then when the transistor temperature changes do to
operating point change with signal level, the offset voltage will
change shifting the baseline. That could be caused by damage, bad
matching, or bias current mismatch.

Try operating the 7A13 until it is warmed up and then touching
different differential and matched pairs (maybe using a damp cotton
swab) to see if one in particular causes more baseline shift with
temperature than the others.

You may want to try fiddling with the Thermal Balance (R196 starting
on page 5-24) and Overdrive Thermal Compensation (R167 starting on
page 5-14).

On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 01:41:55 -0000, "keithostertag"
<keitho@...> wrote:

Hi David-

Thank you so much for explaining these things to me.

Yes, I have verified that the cal square wave out on my 7844 is actually swinging from ground to 40mV. I used both my 465B and R7903 to check it. This is also how I know the cal out on my 7844 is really square, not the slant top&bottom shown in the photos from the 7A13.

The trace does not shift when connecting a 50 ohm terminator to either input set to GND.

I tee'd the cal out to both channels, then put both channels into DC coupling. Zeroed, back to the center ground ref line. Same when switching to AC coupling. All the way down to 1mV/div.

RE: the X10 trim. Depends somewhat on how long the unit has warmed up. It seems to take 30 minutes or more to stabilise, and if I need for some reason to momentarily turn off the scope to unplug the 7A13 for any reason, it then requires another 30 minutes or so to warm up again before it stabalises. So some of my figures and images will reflect drifting that hasn't stabalised yet. For some reason the 2mV and 5mV settings won't zero with the rest.

Thanks,
Keith


--- In TekScopes@..., David <davidwhess@> wrote:

On Sat, 25 Aug 2012 23:41:44 -0000, "keithostertag"
<keitho@> wrote:

Hi David-

Maybe a photo will better explain what I meant:

http://www.strucktower.com/7a13-3443.jpg

The signal going into the +Input is offset negatively by about .8mV.

Switching the same signal to the -Input, the signal going into the -Input is offset positively by about the same amount. This is after centering at GND.
Can you verify that the calibrator signal is actually swinging from
ground to 40mV? Which oscilloscope model is the calibrator signal
coming from?

Does the trace shift when the inputs are set to DC coupling and you
short either input to ground like with a 50 ohm load?

Do you have any way to connect both inputs to the calibrator signal at
the same time like with a BNC T adapter? That will allow checking the
DC and AC common mode rejection.

Maybe I misunderstand how the 10X control works?
I had the same misunderstanding until I rebuilt and studied my 7A13.

See this photo:

http://www.strucktower.com/7a13-3436.jpg

I am assuming that if I input a 4mV square signal and it displays 1/2 division, then if I simply pull out the 10X knob I should see 5 divisions, is that correct? That is not what's happening as you can see. Also, note the Readout doesn't change.
Pulling out the x10 control does NOT change the sensitivity. The
readout deflection factor shown is correct and does not change.

Instead it adds x10 attenuation to the input attenuator and removes
x10 attenuation from the x10 attenuator built around K60 and K61. That
results in 10 times more noise (the trace will be thicker) and more
drift but also allows 10 times more input common mode range and input
offset range. This is incredibly useful when using x1 probes

The x10 in/out picture you linked looks normal to me although the x10
balance is not completely trimmed.

I swapped K60 with K61 and went through the above again with no changes. I had hoped that there might be replacements in an old 7A12 that Rob gave me for parts (thanks Rob!) but they are 148-0034, not 148-0035 (different number of pins). Hmm... can I just snip the extra pins?
Based on the above picture I think the relays are fine.
Re: Hickok Fairchild Boeing and Tupalov did not make CA's

art0matic
 

I remember hearing that the 453 was introduced in response to an IBM threat to start making oscilloscopes! And Sony Tektronix was established after Sony decided to make oscilloscopes. I dunno how accurate this is.

Art

--- In TekScopes@..., Bob Koller <testtech@...> wrote:

I think that Tek made instruments like your CA for IBM under contract. If I recall correctly the 454 ( or one of the original 45X instruments) was designed in response to an IBM need. Some of these were marked IBM also. Anybody with more accurate info feel free to correct me.




________________________________
From: "tubesnthings@..." <tubesnthings@...>
To: TekScopes@...
Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2012 8:52 AM
Subject: [TekScopes] Tek vs Hickok and Fairchild - Boeing vs Tupalov


 
I've been meaning to post some pics comparing Tek and Hickok CA's...Have had many distractions, lately, so you all beat me to it. Am still
going to post pics of the CA with IBM logo - sorry for my tardiness.
 
To me, one significant thing about Hickok's version is the much better
touch-and-feel of the knobs. I've always been bothered and puzzled by the very
sharp edges on many Tek knobs, which can really chew up your fingers on pot
cleaning day!!
 
I have a Fairchild solid state scope with cart, which is not a direct clone
but bears striking resemblance to the 560 series - the plug-in holes are the
EXACT same size, the interface connector is the same make but at different
orientation with higher pin count.
 
To copy a Tek instrument certainly is an accomplishment - to copy (in
secret and record time!!) a B-29 with its "corncob" turbo-compound engines
and their Exhaust Energy Recovery Turbines (TOP SECRET at the time) is the
sort of thing you can probably only get done by holding guns to-, and gulags
over the engineer's heads!
 
Bernd Schroder
 
 

Ultimately, my hat is off to anyone who undertook series
production of these copies. It makes for interesting study! I imagine that
relatively small teams of people did it. Still, they had to provide all the
necessary specs and procedures for manufacturing dauntingly complicated high
quality products. And Tektronix sure ain't gonna
help!

Art
Re: I'm stumped (7000 series something)

tronix_cal
 

FEDLOG says it's 14.160inches long and covered under TO 33A1-13-450-1, and was used in a "Microwave Test Station"  NSN is 6625-00-544-3978.
 
Hope this helps,
 
Brian

From: TekScopes@... [mailto:TekScopes@...] On Behalf Of Rob
Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2012 3:19 PM
To: TekScopes@...
Subject: [TekScopes] I'm stumped (7000 series something)

 

On E-bay is Item number: 280949992724. It has the look of a 7000 series
plug-in and I thought I was pretty familiar with at least all the plug-ins
made by Tektronix for the 7000 series. (A recent thread made me aware of the
custom ones made by outside companies I didn't know about).

Anyway, does anyone have an idea of what this item is? If so what, etc.

Thanks as always for the bandwidth
Rob

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.1913 / Virus Database: 2437/5225 - Release Date: 08/26/12
Re: Tek Clones? -EMG etc

art0matic
 

Thank-you for information on these European instruments!  EMG, along with many other manufacturers, are basically unknown in USA.  Similarly, I suspect there's a long list of US companies that are seldom encountered elsewhere.  Tek, HP/Agilent, and Fluke are probably world-known, but I doubt that Keithly, Lavoie, Dumont, Hickok, Fairchild, Alfred, or Boonton are.  

What bugs me is that this story is 50+ years old.  Electronic manufacturing in USA is a diminishing portion of the economy.  And I'm probably brain damaged from using lead-bearing solder!

Art
Re: Tek vs Hickok and Fairchild - Boeing vs Tupalov

Bob Koller <testtech@...>
 

I think that Tek made instruments like your CA for IBM under contract. If I recall correctly the 454 ( or one of the original 45X instruments) was designed in response to an IBM need. Some of these were marked IBM also. Anybody with more accurate info feel free to correct me.


From: "tubesnthings@..."
To: TekScopes@...
Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2012 8:52 AM
Subject: [TekScopes] Tek vs Hickok and Fairchild - Boeing vs Tupalov

 
I've been meaning to post some pics comparing Tek and Hickok CA's...
Have had many distractions, lately, so you all beat me to it. Am still going to post pics of the CA with IBM logo - sorry for my tardiness.
 
To me, one significant thing about Hickok's version is the much better touch-and-feel of the knobs. I've always been bothered and puzzled by the very sharp edges on many Tek knobs, which can really chew up your fingers on pot cleaning day!!
 
I have a Fairchild solid state scope with cart, which is not a direct clone but bears striking resemblance to the 560 series - the plug-in holes are the EXACT same size, the interface connector is the same make but at different orientation with higher pin count.
 
To copy a Tek instrument certainly is an accomplishment - to copy (in secret and record time!!) a B-29 with its "corncob" turbo-compound engines and their Exhaust Energy Recovery Turbines (TOP SECRET at the time) is the sort of thing you can probably only get done by holding guns to-, and gulags over the engineer's heads!
 
Bernd Schroder
 
 

Ultimately, my hat is off to anyone who undertook series production of these copies. It makes for interesting study! I imagine that relatively small teams of people did it. Still, they had to provide all the necessary specs and procedures for manufacturing dauntingly complicated high quality products. And Tektronix sure ain't gonna help!

Art


Re: 2465BDV slow reaction

honolulusnowwhite
 

Hi Sergey,

I haven't had this problem. I suggest that you follow the Preliminary Troubleshooting chart in the repair manual. Among other things, the chart has you check the clock speed of the microprocessor and the signals at selected other pins.

The microprocessor is supposed to scan the front panel switches every 32 ms while the front panel pots are supposed to be scanned every 16 ms.

Good luck,

Patrick Wong AK6C

--- In TekScopes@..., Sergey Kubushyn <ksi@...> wrote:

I have a 2465BDV (early series, serial B013522) that has a weird problem.
Everything works fine, display is crisp, readout/cursors/etc everything
works. The problem is it is very slow to response to controls. E.g. when
turning vertical position pot it doesn't react immediately so trace does not
move. Then, after a second (may be half-second but very noticeable and long
delay) it jumps to a new location...
Re: Tek Clones?

Leonard
 

This post is why I love reading this forum. There is a wealth of info from industry insiders here.
Leonard

For the transient digitizers (regarded at the time by the US state department as some of the crown jewels of the nuclear weapons development) it was embarassing to find out that the Soviet technology was MUCH further developed than Tek's. I was working in the division that developed the digitizers at the time. At the end of the cold war, there was actually an exchange where the Soviet nuclear weapons designers came over to watch a US test, and our scientests did the same, going over to watch one of their last tests. When their scientests came here, the researchers at EG&G (who the government contracted to instrument the test shots) assumed that they would be wowed by the 5 GHz digitizers that Tek provided. They were not. Instead of asking how we built such fast digitizers, their only question was how do we drill the holes in the rock for the tunnel so smooth? They used dynamite to carve their test tunnels, leaving a broken rock face.

Their digitizers at the time worked at 13 GHz. The secret? The problem with building very high speed CRT deflection is charging the capacitance of the deflection plates. To get decent deflection angle, it takes a few volts/div. That is a lot of current to pump into and out of the plates which act as capacitors. So the Soviets kept the deflection angle down. Way down. Their scan converter CRTs were nearly 6 meters long! The US government labs made a requirement that the digitizer must fit into a standard 19" instrument rack. This "artificial" restricion limited Tek to 5 GHz, and even achieving that took a lot of technology development!

Their pragmatic approach allow them to achieve may things we struggled hard with in the US.
Re: I'm stumped (7000 series something)

teamlarryohio
 

The S-3002 is mentioned briefly in the 1977 catalog, but was wrapped around a 568,
not a 7K. Got me... Any ATS folks here?
-ls-


"Rob" <rgwood@...> wrote:

On E-bay is Item number: 280949992724. It has the look of a 7000 series
plug-in and I thought I was pretty familiar with at least all the plug-ins
made by Tektronix for the 7000 series. (A recent thread made me aware of the
custom ones made by outside companies I didn't know about).

Anyway, does anyone have an idea of what this item is? If so what, etc.

Thanks as always for the bandwidth
Rob
2465BDV slow reaction

Sergey Kubushyn
 

Hi everybody,

I have a 2465BDV (early series, serial B013522) that has a weird problem.
Everything works fine, display is crisp, readout/cursors/etc everything
works. The problem is it is very slow to response to controls. E.g. when
turning vertical position pot it doesn't react immediately so trace does not
move. Then, after a second (may be half-second but very noticeable and long
delay) it jumps to a new location. That is true for all controls e.g. it is
very difficult to use trigger level. It is also slow to respond to switches
(e.g. trigger mode) and when I turn off e.g. cursors they dissappear but the
big character reading stays on the screen for a second or so after cursor
turned off.

If I turn a pot VERY slowly it follows it i.e. there is a very long lag on
reading the control panel.

Also all LEDs flash momentarily when it loses sync or any control changing
LED state is activated (i.e. when there is a change in which LEDs are lit on
the control panel.)

Other than that everything works fine. All voltages are normal, no ripple,
LVPS was recapped recently so there is no problems with the power. All caps
were like new so no recap was actually required but once I've already pulled
that PS off the scope I proceeded with the recap.

It's been behaving exactly the same before that so that recap didn't change
anything.

Have anybody experienced anything like that?

---
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Re: I'm stumped (7000 series something)

Dave Casey <dcasey@...>
 

Since we can't see the length of it, there is also a possibility that it is related to the short lived 2600 series.
 
Dave Casey
 

----- Original Message -----
From: Rob
Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2012 2:19 PM
Subject: [TekScopes] I'm stumped (7000 series something)

 

On E-bay is Item number: 280949992724. It has the look of a 7000 series
plug-in and I thought I was pretty familiar with at least all the plug-ins
made by Tektronix for the 7000 series. (A recent thread made me aware of the
custom ones made by outside companies I didn't know about).

Anyway, does anyone have an idea of what this item is? If so what, etc.

Thanks as always for the bandwidth
Rob
Re: Used/Surplus Tek probes and parts from China

druid_noibn
 

Hi,
 
As I do a little work in the recycling business (helping a friend) I can attest to one part of the process. 
 
In one model of the busienss, the wiring that comes in is segregated as to copper content - nothing else.  So large quantity of "wire" is bundled together as low copper content, e.g., cut-off power cords, ethernet cables, etc.. and such items such as probes.
 
However, this would require that folks go through tons of wire to retrieve the "gold" so in this case, that approach is less likely.
 
However, there is also another grouping of "electronic" parts.  The content of gold, silver, copper isn't great (as to % of low-grade material) so to make it worthwhile, a large amount is needed. As many know, there is/are companies in CA that process tons of old circuit cards and microprocessors for gold, etc...- in large volumes, the economics are good.
 
In this grouping key material needs to be seperated to remove as much steel and wire as possible.  Here I sometimes see some very nice items, complete TEK instruments, etc... (my area doesn't do a lot of "electronics" work so this type of scrap isn't high).  I can't spend a lot of time there as I do have a "day job." 
 
With all of that said, China has lot of control of the scrap metal business and as we see from recent reports, the economic slow-down finds manufacturers in China with significant over-stock.  So there is a increase in "selecting" (seperating) of materials and a changing price market.
 
So - if you have a few recycling centers in your area - make friends.
 
Kind regards,
DBN
 


--- On Sun, 8/26/12, Rob wrote:

From: Rob
Subject: RE: [TekScopes] Used/Surplus Tek probes and parts from China
To: TekScopes@...
Date: Sunday, August 26, 2012, 2:49 PM

 
Twas my thought as well....

-----Original Message-----
From: TekScopes@... [mailto:TekScopes@...] On Behalf
Of David
Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2012 11:10 AM
To: TekScopes@...
Subject: Re: [TekScopes] Used/Surplus Tek probes and parts from China

Maybe the parts and units come from stuff that was scavenged from electronic
waste shipped there for disposal?

On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 16:03:28 -0000, "scott_dixon"
<yahoo@...> wrote:

>I do the occasional Ebay search for Tek bits and bobs. In the results
>of a recent search for Tek brand probes I noticed for the first time some
listings from China. For example, listing number 300614855552? or
250928973903. In following up on what else these sellers have listed I
noticed several different sellers with a variety of older Tek accessories
and parts. For example, P6139A or P6107 probes, boards from a 2440, and
other used HP and Tek parts and instruments. Several sellers listed NI GPIB
adapters. Most of the listings were for "used but working" and priced
similarly to the going prices of similar items (perhaps a bit on the low
end). The mix of items would be typical of, say, a US based surplus
equipment dealer. But this is the first time I've seen such items from
Chinese sellers and I'm a bit curious as to where such older Tek stuff might
be coming from. Is it likely to be genuine? If not, why would anyone fake
old, used Tek and HP stuff? There can't be that much profit in it can
there?
>-scott

------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: Tek Clones?

ditter2
 

--- In TekScopes@..., "Art" <art0matic@...> wrote:

Many of us are acquainted with the long-ago Tek copies made by Hickok, Lavoie, and Jetronics. But I don't think that's all. In the winning with people book, they mention some Japanese scopes that incorporated substantial Tek IP, but mentioned no names. So I've wondered who made what, but all I've actually found was an old Kikusui scope that had knobs that had a striking resemblance to our friends from Oregon. And I can't help but think that the Soviets liked Tek scopes, and made their own. It's just a guess, but I do know that sales to the Soviets of scopes with bandwidth beyond a specified limit were prohibited by COCOM. Can anybody here provide more information?

Art
Art,

I don't think were were any more total "clones" (full copies intended to be identical.

However there were several scopes that copied "some" of Tek designs.

Kikusui sold some portable scopes that resembled the 465 and 475. I have been told that the front panel casting was dimensionally identical to Tek's, but I have never confirmed it. They did not copy the Tek made ICs, and I believe these scopes were totally discrete in nature. There was a patent suit with Kikusui at one time. I don't remember the outcome.

The Russian scopes certianly leveraged the design topologies, but wre their own designs. In some cases, they actually exceeded Tek's performance, lending to the designs were done much later, when higher performance components were available.

For the transient digitizers (regarded at the time by the US state department as some of the crown jewels of the nuclear weapons development) it was embarassing to find out that the Soviet technology was MUCH further developed than Tek's. I was working in the division that developed the digitizers at the time. At the end of the cold war, there was actually an exchange where the Soviet nuclear weapons designers came over to watch a US test, and our scientests did the same, going over to watch one of their last tests. When their scientests came here, the researchers at EG&G (who the government contracted to instrument the test shots) assumed that they would be wowed by the 5 GHz digitizers that Tek provided. They were not. Instead of asking how we built such fast digitizers, their only question was how do we drill the holes in the rock for the tunnel so smooth? They used dynamite to carve their test tunnels, leaving a broken rock face.

Their digitizers at the time worked at 13 GHz. The secret? The problem with building very high speed CRT deflection is charging the capacitance of the deflection plates. To get decent deflection angle, it takes a few volts/div. That is a lot of current to pump into and out of the plates which act as capacitors. So the Soviets kept the deflection angle down. Way down. Their scan converter CRTs were nearly 6 meters long! The US government labs made a requirement that the digitizer must fit into a standard 19" instrument rack. This "artificial" restricion limited Tek to 5 GHz, and even achieving that took a lot of technology development!

Their pragmatic approach allow them to achieve may things we struggled hard with in the US.
I'm stumped (7000 series something)

Rob <rgwood@...>
 

On E-bay is Item number: 280949992724. It has the look of a 7000 series
plug-in and I thought I was pretty familiar with at least all the plug-ins
made by Tektronix for the 7000 series. (A recent thread made me aware of the
custom ones made by outside companies I didn't know about).

Anyway, does anyone have an idea of what this item is? If so what, etc.

Thanks as always for the bandwidth
Rob
Re: Used/Surplus Tek probes and parts from China

Rob <rgwood@...>
 

Twas my thought as well....

-----Original Message-----
From: TekScopes@... [mailto:TekScopes@...] On Behalf
Of David
Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2012 11:10 AM
To: TekScopes@...
Subject: Re: [TekScopes] Used/Surplus Tek probes and parts from China

Maybe the parts and units come from stuff that was scavenged from electronic
waste shipped there for disposal?

On Sun, 26 Aug 2012 16:03:28 -0000, "scott_dixon"
<yahoo@...> wrote:

I do the occasional Ebay search for Tek bits and bobs. In the results
of a recent search for Tek brand probes I noticed for the first time some
listings from China. For example, listing number 300614855552? or
250928973903. In following up on what else these sellers have listed I
noticed several different sellers with a variety of older Tek accessories
and parts. For example, P6139A or P6107 probes, boards from a 2440, and
other used HP and Tek parts and instruments. Several sellers listed NI GPIB
adapters. Most of the listings were for "used but working" and priced
similarly to the going prices of similar items (perhaps a bit on the low
end). The mix of items would be typical of, say, a US based surplus
equipment dealer. But this is the first time I've seen such items from
Chinese sellers and I'm a bit curious as to where such older Tek stuff might
be coming from. Is it likely to be genuine? If not, why would anyone fake
old, used Tek and HP stuff? There can't be that much profit in it can
there?
-scott

------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: 7D20 power demand

Rob <rgwood@...>
 

As most know on the forum; I am more a hobbyist than an a “real” electronics guy so take all of my input with a grain of salt and trust the experts here to weigh in before you head in any direction I seem to recommend. I am commenting more than giving advice/direction.

 

In any event, my drug of choice is the 7000 series. I have ran into a few ‘issues’ that sound similar to your problem. In that a specific plug in would work in some mainframes but not others. (I do not have a 7D20 btw) In all cases so far it has turned out to be an issue involving capacitors. Sometimes in the mainframe sometimes in the plug in.  

 

I am not trying to reopen the debate on whether ‘recapping’ has value or not. It is just what I have chosen to do. I will say however that my experience is that invariably after recapping a mainframe power supply, Z Axis card and Main plug-in board. (specifically replacing the Tantalum electrolytic capacitors).  I get a noticeably  sharper trace and much less “issues” of the type you describe.

 

In order to be technically astute, I would recommend you somehow measure the current draw on the various power supply lines. I have attached pictures of the extenders I made from John’s kits. The set up allows me to switch any line in or out, inject voltage or signals, measure amp draw by placing a meter in series, etc. It also has fuses and LED’s on the power lines so I can know there status by looking. It has the draw back (being so long) that the voltage drop in the cables can cause a symptom similar to what you are facing so I have to be cognizant of that. But I can place my power supply in series to overcome the issue if need be. Finally, I have built another version of the extender with the wire and cable that John researched and I utilize it for final Plug-in calibration, etc. The long one is just for my convenience while troubleshooting.

 

In any event, with all that, it is possible that all of your voltages read correctly but you are not getting the current you need. I do not claim to understand the protection circuit or current limiters, etc. However, my layman’s interpretation is that power supply is seeing all current draw so if you have a leaking cap on a particular line the spring (as analogy) is already loaded somewhat even though the voltage is ‘ok’ and if you install a plug-in that need all the current the power supply is rated for it cannot comply. So you can either add some power in series or find the leaking cap. I do not think you will find it advantageous to set the rails to a higher value than recommended.

 

I hope this helpful in some way

Rob

  

 

From: TekScopes@... [mailto:TekScopes@...] On Behalf Of schaltplan@...
Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2012 6:01 AM
To: TekScopes@...
Subject: Aw: [TekScopes] Re: 7D20 power demand

 




That will be the first thing I'll do. Perhaps it's enough...

Kind regards,

Simon

Gesendet: Sonntag, 26. August 2012 um 00:07 Uhr
Von: Robert <go_boating_fast@...>
An: TekScopes@...
Betreff: [TekScopes] Re: 7D20 power demand

 

Simon,
Given the comments about voltage margins, double check your PS Voltage. While the 50V only has +- 0.2 tolerance, If you are at the low end you might be able to adjust to 50.2 and get a little more and still be within scope tolerance. Who knows, a few tenths more might be enough.
Also replug all the power cables, you can lose a few more tenths from connection resistance.
Bob

--- In TekScopes@..., Simon Muc <simon_muc@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks for the response so far.
>
> As I said, I had just been curious about the fact the 7D20 worked in the 7904. Seems as if the SMPS in the 7904 is able to deliever the needed power more easily than the linear power supply in the 7903. I measured the ripple voltage on the 5V and couldn't find any significant (<5mV) so I am not sure about a defective electrolytic cap. Seems more like too much ohmic losses in the distribution of the 5V? I think I'll take another look at the power supply of the R7603, though I already adjusted it half a year ago.
> I'm still interested in a resistancy measurement of the 5V line on the 7D20...
>
> Kind regards,
> Simon 
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Dennis Tillman <dennis@...>
> To: TekScopes@...
> Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2012 1:35 AM
> Subject: RE: [TekScopes] 7D20 power demand
>
>
>  
> Hi Simon,
> The power demands of the early lines of digital logic (TTL) were something the designers of the 7000 series could not foresee in the 1960s when the power specifications for the 7000 scopes were being defined. 7000 power supply voltages and current limits were designed with analog plugins in mind. Several of the digital plugins which came out later drew so much power that complicated workarounds had to be created to supply them. The 7D01 used power hungry ECL to achieve the 50/100MHz multi-channel speeds it needed to measure complex logic at full bus speeds. The 7D02, which is microprocessor based, is another plugin where power considerations drove engineers and project managers crazy. Sometimes the only solution was to remove features. Other times engineers were forced to tighten power margins.
>  
> It sounds like you have a situation where the power needs of the 7D20 (another complex digital plugin) is just exceeding the power limits of the 7603. One solution would be to go through the power supply calibration procedure of the 7603. That shouldn’t take too long to do.
>  
> Dennis
>  
> From:Simon Muc, Sent: Friday, August 24, 2012 3:36 PM
>
>
> Today I tried to put my 7D20 in a R7603. The 7D20 works great in my 7904 but in the R7603 the self-test fails with 431 (power fail) (and some other failures which I think are related to this failure).
> I measured on the Power-Board and all voltages that are converted in the 7D20 (5V_M, 5V_M, etc) are fine.
> The 5V rail that comes directly from the mainframe however is low by more than the permitted 3% (4.83V). As the R7603 works fine with other plugins, and all other voltages in the mainframe are within tolerance I am wondering, whether my 7D20 demands to much power on the 5V-rail or the R7603 can't deliver enough power (As I said, the 7904 can deliver the current needed).
> If I measure the resistance of the 5V-Input on the 7D20 I get a value of about 120 Ohms.
> Can anyone tell me, if this can be right?
> It would be nice, if someone could measure the resistance between the 8th pin (from bottom,  middle connector, right side when looking from the rear at the 7D20) and ground.
>
> Kind regards,
> Simon
>

 
Re: Tek Clones?

Carlos
 

--- In TekScopes@..., "Dave Casey" <dcasey@...> wrote:

There were some cold war "clones" of the 7k series made either in Russia or East Germany. There are pictures out there somewhere. The form factor is not identical, but you can tell from the pictures that they were very much inspired by the Tektronix scopes.

Dave Casey

----- Original Message -----
From: Art
To: TekScopes@...
Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2012 11:44 PM
Subject: [TekScopes] Tek Clones?



Many of us are acquainted with the long-ago Tek copies made by Hickok, Lavoie, and Jetronics. But I don't think that's all. In the winning with people book, they mention some Japanese scopes that incorporated substantial Tek IP, but mentioned no names. So I've wondered who made what, but all I've actually found was an old Kikusui scope that had knobs that had a striking resemblance to our friends from Oregon. And I can't help but think that the Soviets liked Tek scopes, and made their own. It's just a guess, but I do know that sales to the Soviets of scopes with bandwidth beyond a specified limit were prohibited by COCOM. Can anybody here provide more information?

Art

Art and Dave:

During a span of several decades, the russians published a series of books titled "Guide to radio measurement instruments". The most recent edition I can find in internet dates from 1977, and is a three volume set:

Vol.1 is Measurement of voltage, device parameters and circuits. Power supplies.

Vol.2 is Frequency, time and power meters. Signal generators.

Vol.3 is Measurement of electromagnetic fields. Spectral analysis. Oscilloscopes. Pulse measurement.

If you are curious about their electronic test equipment, you can unload this set from here:

http://publ.lib.ru/ARCHIVES/N/NASONOV_V._S/_Nasonov_V.S..html

(To unload, simply click on the Djv-ZIP written in blue letters after the bold black letter title)

The books are written in russian, but they have a lot of illustrations, block diagrams, graphs and many of them are easily recognizable. Of course, those books show only the test instruments they had before 1977.

Regards,

Carlos
465m Q552 transistor

hjhjr <hjhjr@...>
 

I found two transistors on the group site that are recommended to replace the Q552. Which one is correct a D44H11 or a 2SC2527 or can either one be used.
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