Date   

Re: Right to Repair - Re: [TekScopes] Digital scope with CRT

greenboxmaven
 

By the early 1980s, you could easily buy electronics parts here in Syracuse, even specific ones for consumer equipment. Distributors of parts for HVAC and major appliances are still nasty, but telling them " If you won't sell me what I need, I will get it on the internet. Do you really want to lose a sale?" will often change their policies. In the 1960s when I was in high school, the situation with local suppliers was horrible, especially if you were trying to buy parts for consumer items. By the late 70s, most of them were out of business. The ones remaining were delighted to see any customer come in. There was always mail order, but it was glacially slow and orders were often incomplete. Lafayette and Allied were pretty decent in those times, and there were plenty military surplus dealers too. For Tektronix gear, there was a good sized store about fifty miles away that had both new and surplus parts. The owner was very nasty, but usually had ten year old Tektronix scopes at difficult but not impossible prices. As for the environmental consequences of making it impossible to repair all sorts of things, it is horrific and unsustainable. Fortunately, amatuer radio and sound system hobbyists are very active and proficient in hacking, reverse enginnering, and disseminating what they have discovered.

Bruce Gentry, KA2IVY

On 8/27/20 8:43 AM, scm@... wrote:
I have never, in the last 60 years, had a problem buying components from distributers. In the early years, I would just call a local distributer and place an order (Will Call) and pay cash on pickup. After the first purchase, they knew me as a regular customer. This got very easy when I was in graduate school. All the distributers knew me a both an individual and a lab purchaser. I use Digikey and Mouser now and maintain a huge inventory purchased on the surplus market.

There are issues, however, with the design of equipment to be unrepairable (or repairable only with custom parts from the manufacturer) and with the refusal by the manufacturer to make documentation freely available at a reasonable cost. These practices contribute to excess landfill (or other waste stream) use, ocean pollution, etc. The practices are, thus, environmentally, economically and socially undesirable.



Re: Right to Repair - Re: [TekScopes] Digital scope with CRT

toby@...
 

On 2020-08-27 8:43 a.m., scm@... wrote:
I have never, in the last 60 years, had a problem buying components from distributers. In the early years, I would just call a local distributer and place an order (Will Call) and pay cash on pickup. After the first purchase, they knew me as a regular customer. This got very easy when I was in graduate school. All the distributers knew me a both an individual and a lab purchaser. I use Digikey and Mouser now and maintain a huge inventory purchased on the surplus market.
I've recently had a great experience with Linear Systems. They will sell
any quantity to anyone.

This may be relevant to this group as they definitely sell new JFET
equivalents (including matched duals) for the parts used in a lot of
Tektronix amplifiers. Digikey stocks almost nothing in this category.

--Toby



There are issues, however, with the design of equipment to be unrepairable (or repairable only with custom parts from the manufacturer) and with the refusal by the manufacturer to make documentation freely available at a reasonable cost. These practices contribute to excess landfill (or other waste stream) use, ocean pollution, etc. The practices are, thus, environmentally, economically and socially undesirable.



Re: Right to Repair - Re: [TekScopes] Digital scope with CRT

SCMenasian
 

I have never, in the last 60 years, had a problem buying components from distributers. In the early years, I would just call a local distributer and place an order (Will Call) and pay cash on pickup. After the first purchase, they knew me as a regular customer. This got very easy when I was in graduate school. All the distributers knew me a both an individual and a lab purchaser. I use Digikey and Mouser now and maintain a huge inventory purchased on the surplus market.

There are issues, however, with the design of equipment to be unrepairable (or repairable only with custom parts from the manufacturer) and with the refusal by the manufacturer to make documentation freely available at a reasonable cost. These practices contribute to excess landfill (or other waste stream) use, ocean pollution, etc. The practices are, thus, environmentally, economically and socially undesirable.


Re: ABCs of Probes

 

On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 12:00 PM, Brian Cockburn wrote:


Strange caption to Figure 2.4 (and yes I do know what Lorem ipsum is about).
(Not) surprising for a publication that is updated every few years...

Figure 2.5 looks like it has the wrong picture.
Again, correct.

What a mess!

Ryamond
sorry,
Raymond


Re: ABCs of Probes

 

On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 11:16 AM, Brian Cockburn wrote:


Even this version (14) has what might be a problem. Page 14, Figure 2.1, are
the pictures for Level 1 and Level 2 swapped?
Yes, they are of course.

Raymond


Re: ABCs of Probes

 

On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 10:46 AM, Stephen wrote:


I wouldn’t know about “how many”, but if I’m referring to what you
sent me, I can tell you NOT to upload “ABCs of Probes - 60W-6053-8 01_04”.
It’s the one with the wrong picture on page 12.
The wrong picture certainly is no reason to keep the version available. However, there might be worthwhile information in one (even faulty) version and not in another. Probes come and go, you know.

Some of you guys seem to have checked and maybe compared different versions. Any suggestions, apart from the oldest and the newest?

Raymond


Re: SC504 INT SYNC queries

 

On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 09:07 AM, EJP wrote:


A 12 year mystery solved.
Congratulations, Esmond and thanks for informing us!

Raymond


Re: Right to Repair - Re: [TekScopes] Digital scope with CRT

Ray
 

Ran into this with Grainger last year.Was buying a contactor for the inside heater/ac fan.They said you need an account for this item. So yes they still try to protect the AC & Heating buisness.Garagedoor parts are very hard to get locally as well.I finally found one vendor on line.RaySent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE device------ Original message------From: Dave SeiterDate: Thu, Aug 27, 2020 03:30To: TekScopes@groups.io;Cc: Subject:Re: Right to Repair - Re: [TekScopes] Digital scope with CRT Besides electronics, I dabble in quite a few other things, but in the past 30 years, I've only come across one industry that refused to do business with me.  My house came with an old hot tub that I decided to rebuild about 2000.  I don't recall what part I was trying to source, but all the local places that sold parts absolutely refused to do business with me.  They only sold to people "in the industry".  I think I eventually rebuilt whatever it was, because we used it until about 2008, when it really started falling apart.  It may have been an early ebay purchase too, I just don't recall.  What I do clearly recall is how odd it was they didn't want to deal with me.  I never had problems buying from other appliance parts dealers or anyone else.  Proprietary data yes, but parts no.
-Dave
On Wednesday, August 26, 2020, 08:37:34 PM PDT, Shirley Dulcey KE1L wrote:

Electronics distributors have gotten a lot more friendly to small customers
over the years. Digi-Key and Mouser pioneered it, catering to hams and
hobbyists from the get-go. That turned out to be a great business model for
them, because some of those people later went on to work in the industry
and continued to order from the companies they knew and loved.

The second thing that helped the change along was the ubiquitous adoption
of credit cards. In the olden daisies a big obstacle to ordering from most
distributors (other than Digi-Key and Mouser, and Lafayette when it was
still around) was the need to have an account. Now that everybody has
credit cards, they have become the normal way for small to medium-ish
companies to order; it's too much trouble to set up an account and go
through the bank investigations. A typical startup doesn't even bother to
apply until it starts making production orders, assuming it ever does
rather than outsourcing manufacturing.

Finally, there was the internet. Online ordering lowered the cost of
handling orders a lot;. You don't have to pay somebody to answer the phone
or transcribe paper order forms, and the error rate dropped because of
eliminating an intermediate step.

At this point, our orders really aren't any different from a small company
ordering parts for a prototype, and we're no more trouble to process.
They're ordering parts to make somewhere between one and five of something,
and so are we. Digi-Key and Mouser are still there to take our orders, and
other distributors like Arrow have made a move into the small-order game.
There are still a few things that are hard to order because they are only
handled by old-school distributors that are unfriendly to us, but those
areas are shrinking.

I'm not sure the situation has changed as dramatically in fields other than
electronics. Somebody here may know.

On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 10:13 PM greenboxmaven via groups.io wrote:

Even with repair manuals and schematics, there was another obstacle
years ago-parts. I'm not speaking of unique Tektronix built parts, but
rather condensers and resistors, tubes, transistors and connectors. In
the place and time I spent my youth, there was a constant struggle for
hobbyists and experimenters to buy basic components from suppliers. They
tried to sell only to commercial businesses, angering a whole generation
who were delighted when they went out of business  years later.  I
especially enjoy restoring Tektronix and products of the other major
instrument and scope builder because they were built with excellence and
pride, and prospered by the merit of their work rather than entrapment.

        Bruce Gentry, KA2IVY


On 8/26/20 9:14 PM, Michael W. Lynch via groups.io wrote:
Right to repair is opposed by Apple, John Deere and hundreds of others.
Their "cash cow" is gouging customers for "repairs" by restricting the
availability of service information and parts.  My father in law runs John
Deere equipment and is constantly being screwed for that green paint that
they spray on almost every part.  A $10.00 SKF of Timken bearing, painted
JD Green magically costs $150-$200 at the dealer; same part in a JD Box!
As Mr. Griessen stated, the Firmware and Software are even more vulnerable,
as there is no alternative.  This is an area where the Governments should
act and they do not, since these companies have powerful lobbies across the
world.




Re: ABCs of Probes

Brian Cockburn
 

Also:

Strange caption to Figure 2.4 (and yes I do know what Lorem ipsum is about).

Figure 2.5 looks like it has the wrong picture.


Re: ABCs of Probes

Brian Cockburn
 

Hi,

https://groups.io/g/TekScopes/files/ABCs-of-Probes-Primer.pdf
Even this version (14) has what might be a problem. Page 14, Figure 2.1, are the pictures for Level 1 and Level 2 swapped?

Which leads me to ask, is version 14 from 2016 the most recent version?

Cheers, Brian.


Re: ABCs of Probes

Stephen
 

On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 09:58 PM, Brian Cockburn wrote:


How curious. That is version 8 (the part number is on the last page),
versions 7 and 9 both get it right so it wasn't a pervasive error, just a
one-off. Version 14 is now posted, so we can all bathe in its loveliness.
Maybe someone had a late party and a drink too many...


Re: ABCs of Probes

Brian Cockburn
 

How curious. That is version 8 (the part number is on the last page), versions 7 and 9 both get it right so it wasn't a pervasive error, just a one-off. Version 14 is now posted, so we can all bathe in its loveliness.


Re: ABCs of Probes

Stephen
 

On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 10:24 AM, Raymond Domp Frank wrote:


On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 11:18 PM, Raymond Domp Frank wrote:
Just wondering how many and which versions makes sense on Tekwiki.
The publication has been updated many times, adding newer models and deleting
obsolete ones.

Raymond
I wouldn’t know about “how many”, but if I’m referring to what you sent me, I can tell you NOT to upload “ABCs of Probes - 60W-6053-8 01_04”. It’s the one with the wrong picture on page 12.


Re: 7A29 Weird Behavior

Stephen
 

On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 02:34 PM, Raymond Domp Frank wrote:

I didn't realize that the OP was looking at a 500 Hz signal. The use of a 7A29
suggests use at a much higher frequency. In his situation, it seems that an
ordinary 7A26 would have been a better choice (-3dB below 20 Hz with AC
coupling).
I agree with you Raymond, and with all of you, but I’m gonna try to be more specific. When I turned on this scope, and this particular function gen, it was incidentally set to 500Hz; which I hadn’t realized or even checked when I turned it on. I wasn’t particularly trying to look at a 500Hz signal. It just happened to be that way. And this is when I realized that AC coupling the scope (which is something I needed to do), reduced the amplitude by quite a bit, and I freaked out for a min or two. 🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️


Re: Right to Repair - Re: [TekScopes] Digital scope with CRT

Dave Seiter
 

Besides electronics, I dabble in quite a few other things, but in the past 30 years, I've only come across one industry that refused to do business with me.  My house came with an old hot tub that I decided to rebuild about 2000.  I don't recall what part I was trying to source, but all the local places that sold parts absolutely refused to do business with me.  They only sold to people "in the industry".  I think I eventually rebuilt whatever it was, because we used it until about 2008, when it really started falling apart.  It may have been an early ebay purchase too, I just don't recall.  What I do clearly recall is how odd it was they didn't want to deal with me.  I never had problems buying from other appliance parts dealers or anyone else.  Proprietary data yes, but parts no.
-Dave

On Wednesday, August 26, 2020, 08:37:34 PM PDT, Shirley Dulcey KE1L <mark@...> wrote:

Electronics distributors have gotten a lot more friendly to small customers
over the years. Digi-Key and Mouser pioneered it, catering to hams and
hobbyists from the get-go. That turned out to be a great business model for
them, because some of those people later went on to work in the industry
and continued to order from the companies they knew and loved.

The second thing that helped the change along was the ubiquitous adoption
of credit cards. In the olden daisies a big obstacle to ordering from most
distributors (other than Digi-Key and Mouser, and Lafayette when it was
still around) was the need to have an account. Now that everybody has
credit cards, they have become the normal way for small to medium-ish
companies to order; it's too much trouble to set up an account and go
through the bank investigations. A typical startup doesn't even bother to
apply until it starts making production orders, assuming it ever does
rather than outsourcing manufacturing.

Finally, there was the internet. Online ordering lowered the cost of
handling orders a lot;. You don't have to pay somebody to answer the phone
or transcribe paper order forms, and the error rate dropped because of
eliminating an intermediate step.

At this point, our orders really aren't any different from a small company
ordering parts for a prototype, and we're no more trouble to process.
They're ordering parts to make somewhere between one and five of something,
and so are we. Digi-Key and Mouser are still there to take our orders, and
other distributors like Arrow have made a move into the small-order game.
There are still a few things that are hard to order because they are only
handled by old-school distributors that are unfriendly to us, but those
areas are shrinking.

I'm not sure the situation has changed as dramatically in fields other than
electronics. Somebody here may know.

On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 10:13 PM greenboxmaven via groups.io <ka2ivy=
verizon.net@groups.io> wrote:

Even with repair manuals and schematics, there was another obstacle
years ago-parts. I'm not speaking of unique Tektronix built parts, but
rather condensers and resistors, tubes, transistors and connectors. In
the place and time I spent my youth, there was a constant struggle for
hobbyists and experimenters to buy basic components from suppliers. They
tried to sell only to commercial businesses, angering a whole generation
who were delighted when they went out of business  years later.  I
especially enjoy restoring Tektronix and products of the other major
instrument and scope builder because they were built with excellence and
pride, and prospered by the merit of their work rather than entrapment.

        Bruce Gentry, KA2IVY


On 8/26/20 9:14 PM, Michael W. Lynch via groups.io wrote:
Right to repair is opposed by Apple, John Deere and hundreds of others.
Their "cash cow" is gouging customers for "repairs" by restricting the
availability of service information and parts.  My father in law runs John
Deere equipment and is constantly being screwed for that green paint that
they spray on almost every part.  A $10.00 SKF of Timken bearing, painted
JD Green magically costs $150-$200 at the dealer; same part in a JD Box!
As Mr. Griessen stated, the Firmware and Software are even more vulnerable,
as there is no alternative.  This is an area where the Governments should
act and they do not, since these companies have powerful lobbies across the
world.




Re: SC504 INT SYNC queries

EJP
 

Thanks to all for the help. After testing at TP3136 and getting nada, and then ditto at TP3520, I twigged that there was no signal getting through at all with the TM515 power unit in the frame, although there had been when I had it out, and of course that led immediately to discovering 14B/15B shorted together *by* the frame when put back together, because I had used pins to make the connectors, and these fouled on the extreme RHS of the RHbay with the RH flat bar of the frame. But nowhere else. So I removed the pins and soldered the wires straight into the holes and bingo. A 12 year mystery solved.

Fun for all the family.

EJP


Re: Right to Repair - Re: [TekScopes] Digital scope with CRT

Tom Gardner
 

On 27/08/20 04:35, Shirley Dulcey KE1L wrote:
Electronics distributors have gotten a lot more friendly to small customers
over the years. ...

The second thing that helped the change along was the ubiquitous adoption
of credit cards. In the olden daisies a big obstacle to ordering from most
distributors (other than Digi-Key and Mouser, and Lafayette when it was
still around) was the need to have an account. ...

Finally, there was the internet. Online ordering lowered the cost of
handling orders a lot;. You don't have to pay somebody to answer the phone
or transcribe paper order forms, and the error rate dropped because of
eliminating an intermediate step.
One of my early projects, in ~73, was to build one of these new-fangled digital clocks with the miraculous LEDs.

Sourcing the parts involved:

* reading magazines to find what was available
* writing off for data sheets
* scavenging most components from scrap circuit boards
* finding a source of the special clock chip and enormous 0.5" LEDs, in California
* obtaining and sending an International Money Order; no credit cards, no cheques
* waiting for the components to arrive by slow boat
* elapsed time of several months!

It turned out to be the first most people in the road had seen, and some hated seeing their life tick away every second.

I still have it, it still works, and I recently converted it into a Vetinari clock


Re: Printing Tek knobs

dabono@...
 

Here's one for the small variable knobs (position, intensity, focus, etc.) for the 24xx series scopes. Courtesy the OldTekScopes Facebook group:
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4565400


Re: Right to Repair - Re: [TekScopes] Digital scope with CRT

greenboxmaven
 

By the early 1970s many angry and creative people of my age realized they could make money helping the experimenters and do-it-yourselfers. They would get jobs at local electronics distributors, both on the counters and in the office, set up false accounts, and sell to trusted people at wholesale price if the correct code word or name was given, along with a "tip". It was an electronics speakeasy! Mangement was alert to all of this and tried to stop it, but the backlash in alternative newspapers and boycotts of their brands of appliances and electronics caused them to accept and tolerate it. The internet has almost totally ended the need for that sort of thing, and none too soon.

Bruce Gentry, KA2IVY

On 8/26/20 11:35 PM, Shirley Dulcey KE1L wrote:
Electronics distributors have gotten a lot more friendly to small customers
over the years. Digi-Key and Mouser pioneered it, catering to hams and
hobbyists from the get-go. That turned out to be a great business model for
them, because some of those people later went on to work in the industry
and continued to order from the companies they knew and loved.

The second thing that helped the change along was the ubiquitous adoption
of credit cards. In the olden daisies a big obstacle to ordering from most
distributors (other than Digi-Key and Mouser, and Lafayette when it was
still around) was the need to have an account. Now that everybody has
credit cards, they have become the normal way for small to medium-ish
companies to order; it's too much trouble to set up an account and go
through the bank investigations. A typical startup doesn't even bother to
apply until it starts making production orders, assuming it ever does
rather than outsourcing manufacturing.

Finally, there was the internet. Online ordering lowered the cost of
handling orders a lot;. You don't have to pay somebody to answer the phone
or transcribe paper order forms, and the error rate dropped because of
eliminating an intermediate step.

At this point, our orders really aren't any different from a small company
ordering parts for a prototype, and we're no more trouble to process.
They're ordering parts to make somewhere between one and five of something,
and so are we. Digi-Key and Mouser are still there to take our orders, and
other distributors like Arrow have made a move into the small-order game.
There are still a few things that are hard to order because they are only
handled by old-school distributors that are unfriendly to us, but those
areas are shrinking.

I'm not sure the situation has changed as dramatically in fields other than
electronics. Somebody here may know.

On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 10:13 PM greenboxmaven via groups.io <ka2ivy=
verizon.net@groups.io> wrote:

Even with repair manuals and schematics, there was another obstacle
years ago-parts. I'm not speaking of unique Tektronix built parts, but
rather condensers and resistors, tubes, transistors and connectors. In
the place and time I spent my youth, there was a constant struggle for
hobbyists and experimenters to buy basic components from suppliers. They
tried to sell only to commercial businesses, angering a whole generation
who were delighted when they went out of business years later. I
especially enjoy restoring Tektronix and products of the other major
instrument and scope builder because they were built with excellence and
pride, and prospered by the merit of their work rather than entrapment.

Bruce Gentry, KA2IVY


On 8/26/20 9:14 PM, Michael W. Lynch via groups.io wrote:
Right to repair is opposed by Apple, John Deere and hundreds of others.
Their "cash cow" is gouging customers for "repairs" by restricting the
availability of service information and parts. My father in law runs John
Deere equipment and is constantly being screwed for that green paint that
they spray on almost every part. A $10.00 SKF of Timken bearing, painted
JD Green magically costs $150-$200 at the dealer; same part in a JD Box!
As Mr. Griessen stated, the Firmware and Software are even more vulnerable,
as there is no alternative. This is an area where the Governments should
act and they do not, since these companies have powerful lobbies across the
world.




Re: SC504 INT SYNC queries

EJP
 

Raymond

Excellent suggestion, and the balance was indeed a bit out at 50mV, but setting it to 0.0000 volts didn't help.

R3220 is under the board you do this adjustment to, so I would have to solder a wire to it anyway. I will do that next.

Re Stephen's suggestion to cut a slot in the extender, my original Tek extender already had several plugin-family slots cut in it, including this one, lookng to have been made that way: but my beautiful Dan Meeks extender doesn't, only the TM500 family slot, and I'm not keen on starting down that path.

EJP