Hi
I dont see any reason to split the group ---we have all so much TOGETHER
Regards
Hardy

-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
Fra: TekScopes@groups.io [mailto:TekScopes@groups.io] På vegne af Raymond Domp Frank
Sendt: 2. august 2020 18:48
Til: TekScopes@groups.io
Emne: Re: [TekScopes] OT - Any interest in starting a Tektronix Logic Analyzer Group? (with added bonus question!)

On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 06:45 PM, jslcanuck wrote:

And nobody in a group of nearly 7000 members who's stepped up to sort it out?

It appears we found one.

Raymond




--
Denne mail er kontrolleret for vira af AVG.
http://www.avg.com

On Sun, Aug 2, 2020 at 06:45 PM, jslcanuck wrote:

And nobody in a group of nearly 7000 members who's stepped up to sort it out?

It appears we found one.

Raymond

One other comment, if I may: I just took a look at the files section here, and can there be a
reaction other than "Oh. My. God."? Are you kidding? 6000 files/directories (and mostly small
stuff, too, since it only totals 800meg) and not organized by type, model, or anything else?
And nobody in a group of nearly 7000 members who's stepped up to sort it out? Hard to
believe that in a population that big there's no-one with the required OCD tendencies to just
wade in and start the cleanup. Or maybe the group's owner(s) like it that way. Just saying.

Egge:

*Finally* the right answer! Thank you very much, and the price on these is right, so I'm stocking up.

All:

As David pointed out, what started as a small question kind of exploded, so I'd like to reorient it for
just a moment. Whether there's a need for a *discussion* forum is open to endless (and, probably,
increasingly tedious) debate, and the conversations will (it's reasonable to speculate) range across
a spectrum between "tool itself" and "application", I think we can agree. 'Nuff said on that point.

So perhaps I should have been a little clearer: My experience in the other group I alluded to (which
I share with David) is that the forum proper isn't enough; to a very large extent it's about the "files"
section, which has become its centerpiece. We've amassed a considerable archive of the user
manuals, software, firmware images, and schematics necessary not only for using and maintaining,
but augmenting those systems. Users are replicating (otherwise-unavailable or expensive) component
modules thanks to the collective effort to gather documentation *and* reverse-engineer.

While I'm not suggesting anyone's going to go *that* far wrt analyzers, if you pick something up at
a smokin' deal (dead or alive) and want to get some use out of it, there oughta be a central repository
for all its related material. No manuals? Got 'em. Bad firmware? Download an image and burn your
own replacements - and maybe upgrade to latest rev while you're at it. And the reason to make it
general (rather than manufacturer-specific) is that (to the best of my knowledge, at least) the previous
efforts to create and/or sustain an exclusive group (in this case *Tek* analyzers) have flopped or stalled.

So let's go another way. We can toe-chew the usefulness of such a group endlessly, but it's going to
be more informative to actually *try* and see what happens.

Jonathan

Hi jslcanuck,

Regarding your search for KlipChip Interfaces you can use P6417 and P6418 Accessoires (PN:196-3431-00 and 196-3432-00). Even the P6417 8-Channel Podlet Holder is a Black Version of the older Grey Coloured 92A96/92C96 Podlet Holder. Older 196-3431-00 and 196-3432-00's have no label and the cost savings are substantial.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1p-Tektronix-8-Channel-Leadset/352248237662

Greetings,

Egge Siert

On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 10:30 PM, Harvey White wrote:

I just looked up the price of the Beagle.  I am now giving my wallet CPR....

Fair enough (it is $330 retail I think). I just looked on eBay, and saw a used one for $120 or Offer.
But if you need it regularly, and you have limited bench space, and you need a complete set of features, and if your time is valuable (relative to building your own tool), then isn't it a good investment...? For full disclosure, I should perhaps mention that I got my personal Beagle for free, as a prize in a Microchip design contest. :-)

Canuck wrote:
That argument doesn't hold a drop of water. If I discover my curve tracer is down and I'm trying
to fix it, should I be asking in a forum dedicated to the audio equipment from which the transistor
I want to use it to characterize came from?
If I'm trying to drive to Edmonton to see a play and my car breaks down, should I seek car repair
help in a group specializing in Alberta playwrites?

Point taken, although your counter-examples are a bit extreme. I should not have suggested "application" without more context.
My counter-counter-point is: When your Tek curve tracer is broken, do you need a Curve Tracer forum, or a more general Tek forum (like this one)? The former is impractical I think, just like (I suspect) a L.A. forum would be, for the reasons already discussed.
Car breaks down (you didn't mention which Tool is involved): Would you go looking for a "tool forum"? No, most likely a "Ford forum" is the practical answer. That's my point.

Pete

Hi satbeginner
Sorry I accidentally deleted those picture.
For temperature measurement I have one built using lm 35 temperature
sensor and I can attach it with crocodile clip to the heat sink.
I deleted those pictures not to be confused with so many photos.
Sorry
Thanks
Saroj

The following photos have been uploaded to the TekTronix 2230 Power Supply Repair album of the TekScopes@groups.io group.

• voltage at gate with respect to tp940.jpg

By: Saroj Pradhan

---

The following photos have been uploaded to the TekTronix 2230 Power Supply Repair album of the TekScopes@groups.io group.

• voltage at test point 44 with respect to tp950.jpg

By: Saroj Pradhan

---

The following photos have been uploaded to the TekTronix 2230 Power Supply Repair album of the TekScopes@groups.io group.

• voltage at test point 45 with respect to tp 940.jpg

By: Saroj Pradhan

Hi Saroj,

yes, of course you can, but I would keep at least one picture showing the extra pulses, because that could help others to identify a similar problem with the switcher chip.
You mean the pictures in your album: https://groups.io/g/TekScopes/album?id=250384

I still assume you use a 10x probe, because the readout still looks like 10x lower than expected :-)

Do you have a way of measuring the temperature of the Power FET when the scope is operational?

Starting to look good.

Leo

The following photos have been moved from TekTronix 2230 Power Supply Repair to 067-0184-00 Input-C Characterizer.

• Test point 44 dutycycle.jpg

By: Saroj Pradhan

---

The following photos have been moved from TekTronix 2230 Power Supply Repair to 067-0184-00 Input-C Characterizer.

• Test point 45 frequency measurement.jpg

By: Saroj Pradhan

---

The following photos have been moved from TekTronix 2230 Power Supply Repair to 067-0184-00 Input-C Characterizer.

• Test point 45 frequency measurement.jpg

By: Saroj Pradhan

Hi Satbeginner
Can I delete the now irrelevant photos from the album?
Thanks
Saroj


On Sun, Aug 2, 2020, 5:28 PM Saroj Pradhan via groups.io <sarojman.Pradhan=
gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:

Hi Satbeginner
I think I made mistake.
I changed the measuring oscilloscope to default setting and now the voltage
reading is quite close to what it would be expected.
I have attached the snap shot for both ground lead attached to tp940 and
tp950.
Thanks
Saroj


On Sun, Aug 2, 2020, 12:20 PM satbeginner <castellcorunas@gmail.com>
wrote:

Hi Saroj,

here some pictures I took with a previous repair of mine on a 2215:
https://groups.io/g/TekScopes/album?id=64919&;p=pcreated,,,20,1,0,0

Could the small ringing at the peak be of not optimised adjustment of the
(10x?) probe?

Looking forward to your reply, but it is starting to look good, I think

:-)

Success,

Leo

Hi Satbeginner
I think I made mistake.
I changed the measuring oscilloscope to default setting and now the voltage
reading is quite close to what it would be expected.
I have attached the snap shot for both ground lead attached to tp940 and
tp950.
Thanks
Saroj

Hi,
Today’s Digital Storage Oscilloscopes (DSOs) are capable of a wide range of complex operations, often involving substantial voltages from power sources having high available current. With proper care and maintenances, these instruments will last indefinitely. They seem never to wear out. Here are some suggestions for maximizing accuracy and longevity:

https://prezhost.com/2020/08/02/care-and-maintenance-of-a-digital-storage-oscilloscope/

While it's interesting to debate the need for a dedicated LA group (IMHO not needed), what actually impelled Jonathan to post here was his question about the probes.

Sadly his tendency towards OCD pushed the "there needs to be a dedicated group for LAs" issue to the fore, while his immediate need is the answer to the question:

I have a TLA 510/520 I want to press into use. I have the 92C96 acquisition board, cable, and leads - all the way to the individual two-pin signal (+gnd) lead
meant to be plugged into header pins on the target. That's where my problem starts - I need grabber clips (EZ-Hook, KlipChip, etc.), but the grabbers only
have a single pin and the probe cable won't fit onto them. In the manual for this thing (under "optional accessories") they describe:

p/n 020-2108-00: Six 8-channel lead sets, 12 Y-cables, 72 KlipChip Adapters

Are these "Y-cables" little two-wire splitters that go between the probe tip and the grabber?

Does anyone know the answer?

David
-----Original Message-----
From: TekScopes@groups.io [mailto:TekScopes@groups.io] On Behalf Of sdturne@q.com
Sent: 02 August 2020 07:35
To: TekScopes@groups.io
Subject: Re: [TekScopes] OT - Any interest in starting a Tektronix Logic Analyzer Group? (with added bonus question!)

FYI for Saleae users...their SDK is open so you can roll your own protocol analyzers.

Sean

Hi Saroj,

here some pictures I took with a previous repair of mine on a 2215: https://groups.io/g/TekScopes/album?id=64919&;p=pcreated,,,20,1,0,0

Could the small ringing at the peak be of not optimised adjustment of the (10x?) probe?

Looking forward to your reply, but it is starting to look good, I think :-)

Success,

Leo

FYI for Saleae users...their SDK is open so you can roll your own protocol analyzers.

Sean

Goodmorning Saroj,

I will study your recent pictures this morning, but one quick remark/question:

Did you use a 10x probe when you took the measurements?

EG the gate Pulse is looking good now, in terms of shape and frequency, but the scope screen readout says 1,4Vpp, while I would expect around 15Vpp ?

And I see a similar difference with the sawtooth amplitude?

Keep going,

Leo

Arium? Wow, that's a name I've not heard in a long time. I picked up a couple of Tek Prison, I mean Prism, logic analyzers from a now-defunct start-up company I worked for back in the early 2000's. They owed me money for consulting, and I took my pay in test equipment. I passed over their Arium logic analyzer and eventually sold the 2 Prison systems and bought a Tek TLA711. The realtime clock battery went dead a few years ago and silly me, I tried to remove the RTC module myself and probably cut a trace or two. I've asked on this group for a schematic of the Benchtop Controller, which is a Windows 98 PC in a module, to no avail. One of these days I'll either fix it and sell it or just sell it as-is.

As Chuck points out, logic analyzers aren't as useful as they once were. That little start-up lived and died by the logic analyzer, in the days of slow (compared to today), wide parallel buses, expensive and limited memory, and small (compared to today) CPLDs and FPGAs. I haven't needed mine for a long time, and the TLA711 is a monster, with 11 slots and the potential for literally thousands of channels (mine can handle 102 with a single 7L3 module, although I only have the special cables for 51 channels, all I've ever needed). Still, with my other 1970's to 1990's vintage gear like the HP 8566 spectrum analyzer, 8350B sweep oscillator, and 54504A digital scope (not to mention someday owning a Tek 7854), it would be wise to keep a logic analyzer handy.

So count me in if you ever get a Logic Analyzer group going. Like I really need another group to belong to; my wife was just telling me today even 2 groups (TekScopes and the HPAK group) are too many and give me ideas. Like the 19-inch rack I just bought on eBay a week or so ago for $80. But that started with a used equipment house sending me an email at work about their rack sale; nothing to do with the groups. Of course I had to look at how much racks were on eBay. At $80 and local pick-up only right off the freeway on my way home from work, with the seats already removed from the van due to her buying used patio furniture, I figured it was a sign from God! Who am I to go against the Almighty when He so clearly gave me a sign?!

Anyway, good luck with the new group, if it ever gets off the ground.

Jim Ford

Interleaved comments

useful to demystify things like the I2C bus. Yes, there are other devices
(very cheap!  10 dollars) that can do that, but they are not data sensitive,
and there are times when I need that (what is byte XXX in message sent?)  For
me to *really* get an idea of what's going on, I'll need to write my own
protocol analyzer.

I've got a 10 dollar Saleae clone, and for a number of things, it's wonderful.  Does stuff that my HP16702B won't do without me digging into it and mastering what HP thought was simple.  I've got a fair amount of experience in programming, but I'm not sure that the HP is quite the right tool.

Hi Harvey; I don't follow... a common (and relatively cheap) protocol analyzer, such as a Beagle ( https://www.totalphase.com/products/beagle-i2cspi/ ), shows protocol details/data, and timing, with a little USB dongle. I have the I2C/SPI version, and the USB version. Works great for those specific serial buses.
Am I missing your point?

Yes, but it's because you don't have enough information to duplicate my viewpoint:

1) I just looked up the price of the Beagle.  I am now giving my wallet CPR....

2) I'm not sure that the beagle would do what I want.

The Saleae will take apart I2C (all that I'm interested in at the moment, and exactly what I needed when I was getting I2C packets working), and will tell me the exact binary/hex data stream. Wunnerful..... What it will NOT do, and can't, is to tell me that the header data field that specifies the type of chip I think I'm talking to is a PCA9634...  And it's in there some place when the packet destination is I2C.  Completely unreasonable for me to expect someone else to understand my custom data format for a packet, of course.

3) the Saleae will work only so fast and for so much data.  If I'm looking at the hardware itself, looking for glitches and unknown data patterns, and looking to see what else is going on in the system, sometimes the larger LA is better.  I did write, and have, written some descriptions for the HP that allow some taking apart and disassembly of the data stream.  On the other hand, I did that with a CPLD and took the serial data stream to a state/parallel stream, and used extra bits that the LA captured to identify address fields, start and stop data, etc.  Way before the Saleae was something I knew about.

I'm considering doing that in a program for an FPGA.  It captures the data and the auxiliary programming takes it apart.

Application example: A few years ago at HP, working on a storage controller that included a large SoC chip that included I2C for controlling power regulators in a startup sequence. Vendors docs were not detailed enough, and my power system design was a little different from their Reference Design, so there were issues. I used a Beagle to see and capture exactly what it was doing on power-up...

Hmmm, was teaching for the last 11 years or so, so I didn't have that resource (or that budget).  I think the problem is how specifically I can get the LA to interpret my data for me, and with the work I put into it, I rather expect it to be able to.

Simpler example, which I've needed multiple times: A CPU is trying to talk to something, but the I2C address is wrong. A Beagle immediately tells me what it's trying to do.

So does my LA, and so does the Saleae, for that matter.  I tend to have to develop applications from the ground up, and adding packet communications over I2C (which is piggybacked on an NRF24L01 protocol, hence 32 byte packets), was something I wished I had more (and easier) handles on), well....

So, for that matter, does the I2C address scanner I built into the project, pick the interface, and it pings everything on the bus by address.  It's a few menus down in the diagnostics.  Hit another touchscreen button and it (by address) tells you what you're talking to if it knows it, don't know who'd do that.

So for me, the bottom line goes several ways:

1) if it's low speed enough, and I don't need data analysis, and I don't need glitch information, but do need data... Saleae

2) if it's higher speed and I may need glitch information, the HP goes to work (I do have a Tek 308, it's cute, it's 16? channels, it's portable.  Did I mention it's cute?)

3) if I need exact packet analysis, then it's up to me to do the hardware and software.  Been there, doing that....

Not likely that I'm doing typical stuff, depending.

I'd like to get my 7D02 working, but that's not likely for now. Actually easier to go build the equivalent from scratch, which I just might do... I could look at some of the older 8 bit processors in the Tek stuff I have, that may not be working.

Thanks for the comments.

Harvey

Pete

I was agreeing with you in a sideways fashion. ;o) The remaining applications are pretty niche. As far as I know DRAM manufacturers are the only ones who were really buying them in quantity. Small wonder that Tek discontinued the TLA lineup and recommends an MSO to replace it. Keysight might be the only company making benchtop LAs now.

Sean