Date   

Re: OT - Any interest in starting a Tektronix Logic Analyzer Group? (with added bonus question!)

Egge Siert
 

Hi jslcanuck,

Regarding your search for KlipChip Interfaces you can use P6417 and P6418 Accessoires (PN:196-3431-00 and 196-3432-00). Even the P6417 8-Channel Podlet Holder is a Black Version of the older Grey Coloured 92A96/92C96 Podlet Holder. Older 196-3431-00 and 196-3432-00's have no label and the cost savings are substantial.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1p-Tektronix-8-Channel-Leadset/352248237662

Greetings,

Egge Siert


Re: OT - Any interest in starting a Tektronix Logic Analyzer Group? (with added bonus question!)

saipan59 (Pete)
 

On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 10:30 PM, Harvey White wrote:


I just looked up the price of the Beagle.  I am now giving my wallet CPR....
Fair enough (it is $330 retail I think). I just looked on eBay, and saw a used one for $120 or Offer.
But if you need it regularly, and you have limited bench space, and you need a complete set of features, and if your time is valuable (relative to building your own tool), then isn't it a good investment...? For full disclosure, I should perhaps mention that I got my personal Beagle for free, as a prize in a Microchip design contest. :-)

Canuck wrote:
That argument doesn't hold a drop of water. If I discover my curve tracer is down and I'm trying
to fix it, should I be asking in a forum dedicated to the audio equipment from which the transistor
I want to use it to characterize came from?
If I'm trying to drive to Edmonton to see a play and my car breaks down, should I seek car repair
help in a group specializing in Alberta playwrites?

Point taken, although your counter-examples are a bit extreme. I should not have suggested "application" without more context.
My counter-counter-point is: When your Tek curve tracer is broken, do you need a Curve Tracer forum, or a more general Tek forum (like this one)? The former is impractical I think, just like (I suspect) a L.A. forum would be, for the reasons already discussed.
Car breaks down (you didn't mention which Tool is involved): Would you go looking for a "tool forum"? No, most likely a "Ford forum" is the practical answer. That's my point.

Pete


Re: Tektronix 2230

Saroj Pradhan
 

Hi satbeginner
Sorry I accidentally deleted those picture.
For temperature measurement I have one built using lm 35 temperature
sensor and I can attach it with crocodile clip to the heat sink.
I deleted those pictures not to be confused with so many photos.
Sorry
Thanks
Saroj

On Sun, Aug 2, 2020, 5:57 PM satbeginner <@satbeginner> wrote:

Hi Saroj,

yes, of course you can, but I would keep at least one picture showing the
extra pulses, because that could help others to identify a similar problem
with the switcher chip.
You mean the pictures in your album:
https://groups.io/g/TekScopes/album?id=250384

I still assume you use a 10x probe, because the readout still looks like
10x lower than expected :-)

Do you have a way of measuring the temperature of the Power FET when the
scope is operational?

Starting to look good.

Leo




Photo Notifications #photo-notice

TekScopes@groups.io Notification <TekScopes@...>
 

The following photos have been uploaded to the TekTronix 2230 Power Supply Repair album of the TekScopes@groups.io group.

By: Saroj Pradhan


The following photos have been uploaded to the TekTronix 2230 Power Supply Repair album of the TekScopes@groups.io group.

By: Saroj Pradhan


The following photos have been uploaded to the TekTronix 2230 Power Supply Repair album of the TekScopes@groups.io group.

By: Saroj Pradhan


Re: Tektronix 2230

satbeginner
 

Hi Saroj,

yes, of course you can, but I would keep at least one picture showing the extra pulses, because that could help others to identify a similar problem with the switcher chip.
You mean the pictures in your album: https://groups.io/g/TekScopes/album?id=250384

I still assume you use a 10x probe, because the readout still looks like 10x lower than expected :-)

Do you have a way of measuring the temperature of the Power FET when the scope is operational?

Starting to look good.

Leo


Photo Notifications #photo-notice

TekScopes@groups.io Notification <TekScopes@...>
 


Re: Tektronix 2230

Saroj Pradhan
 

Hi Satbeginner
Can I delete the now irrelevant photos from the album?
Thanks
Saroj


On Sun, Aug 2, 2020, 5:28 PM Saroj Pradhan via groups.io <sarojman.Pradhan=
gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:

Hi Satbeginner
I think I made mistake.
I changed the measuring oscilloscope to default setting and now the voltage
reading is quite close to what it would be expected.
I have attached the snap shot for both ground lead attached to tp940 and
tp950.
Thanks
Saroj


On Sun, Aug 2, 2020, 12:20 PM satbeginner <@satbeginner>
wrote:

Hi Saroj,

here some pictures I took with a previous repair of mine on a 2215:
https://groups.io/g/TekScopes/album?id=64919&p=pcreated,,,20,1,0,0

Could the small ringing at the peak be of not optimised adjustment of the
(10x?) probe?

Looking forward to your reply, but it is starting to look good, I think
:-)

Success,

Leo






Re: Tektronix 2230

Saroj Pradhan
 

Hi Satbeginner
I think I made mistake.
I changed the measuring oscilloscope to default setting and now the voltage
reading is quite close to what it would be expected.
I have attached the snap shot for both ground lead attached to tp940 and
tp950.
Thanks
Saroj

On Sun, Aug 2, 2020, 12:20 PM satbeginner <@satbeginner> wrote:

Hi Saroj,

here some pictures I took with a previous repair of mine on a 2215:
https://groups.io/g/TekScopes/album?id=64919&p=pcreated,,,20,1,0,0

Could the small ringing at the peak be of not optimised adjustment of the
(10x?) probe?

Looking forward to your reply, but it is starting to look good, I think :-)

Success,

Leo




Care And Maintenance Of A Digital Storage Oscilloscope

Carl Moon <carl.moon@...>
 

Hi,
Today’s Digital Storage Oscilloscopes (DSOs) are capable of a wide range of complex operations, often involving substantial voltages from power sources having high available current. With proper care and maintenances, these instruments will last indefinitely. They seem never to wear out. Here are some suggestions for maximizing accuracy and longevity:

https://prezhost.com/2020/08/02/care-and-maintenance-of-a-digital-storage-oscilloscope/


Re: OT - Any interest in starting a Tektronix Logic Analyzer Group? (with added bonus question!)

 

While it's interesting to debate the need for a dedicated LA group (IMHO not needed), what actually impelled Jonathan to post here was his question about the probes.

Sadly his tendency towards OCD pushed the "there needs to be a dedicated group for LAs" issue to the fore, while his immediate need is the answer to the question:

I have a TLA 510/520 I want to press into use. I have the 92C96 acquisition board, cable, and leads - all the way to the individual two-pin signal (+gnd) lead
meant to be plugged into header pins on the target. That's where my problem starts - I need grabber clips (EZ-Hook, KlipChip, etc.), but the grabbers only
have a single pin and the probe cable won't fit onto them. In the manual for this thing (under "optional accessories") they describe:
p/n 020-2108-00: Six 8-channel lead sets, 12 Y-cables, 72 KlipChip Adapters
Are these "Y-cables" little two-wire splitters that go between the probe tip and the grabber?
Does anyone know the answer?

David
-----Original Message-----
From: TekScopes@groups.io [mailto:TekScopes@groups.io] On Behalf Of sdturne@q.com
Sent: 02 August 2020 07:35
To: TekScopes@groups.io
Subject: Re: [TekScopes] OT - Any interest in starting a Tektronix Logic Analyzer Group? (with added bonus question!)

FYI for Saleae users...their SDK is open so you can roll your own protocol analyzers.

Sean


Re: Tektronix 2230

satbeginner
 

Hi Saroj,

here some pictures I took with a previous repair of mine on a 2215: https://groups.io/g/TekScopes/album?id=64919&p=pcreated,,,20,1,0,0

Could the small ringing at the peak be of not optimised adjustment of the (10x?) probe?

Looking forward to your reply, but it is starting to look good, I think :-)

Success,

Leo


Re: OT - Any interest in starting a Tektronix Logic Analyzer Group? (with added bonus question!)

@0culus
 

FYI for Saleae users...their SDK is open so you can roll your own protocol analyzers.

Sean


Re: Tektronix 2230

satbeginner
 

Goodmorning Saroj,

I will study your recent pictures this morning, but one quick remark/question:

Did you use a 10x probe when you took the measurements?

EG the gate Pulse is looking good now, in terms of shape and frequency, but the scope screen readout says 1,4Vpp, while I would expect around 15Vpp ?

And I see a similar difference with the sawtooth amplitude?

Keep going,

Leo


Re: OT - Any interest in starting a Tektronix Logic Analyzer Group? (with added bonus question!)

Jim Ford
 

Arium? Wow, that's a name I've not heard in a long time. I picked up a couple of Tek Prison, I mean Prism, logic analyzers from a now-defunct start-up company I worked for back in the early 2000's. They owed me money for consulting, and I took my pay in test equipment. I passed over their Arium logic analyzer and eventually sold the 2 Prison systems and bought a Tek TLA711. The realtime clock battery went dead a few years ago and silly me, I tried to remove the RTC module myself and probably cut a trace or two. I've asked on this group for a schematic of the Benchtop Controller, which is a Windows 98 PC in a module, to no avail. One of these days I'll either fix it and sell it or just sell it as-is.

As Chuck points out, logic analyzers aren't as useful as they once were. That little start-up lived and died by the logic analyzer, in the days of slow (compared to today), wide parallel buses, expensive and limited memory, and small (compared to today) CPLDs and FPGAs. I haven't needed mine for a long time, and the TLA711 is a monster, with 11 slots and the potential for literally thousands of channels (mine can handle 102 with a single 7L3 module, although I only have the special cables for 51 channels, all I've ever needed). Still, with my other 1970's to 1990's vintage gear like the HP 8566 spectrum analyzer, 8350B sweep oscillator, and 54504A digital scope (not to mention someday owning a Tek 7854), it would be wise to keep a logic analyzer handy.

So count me in if you ever get a Logic Analyzer group going. Like I really need another group to belong to; my wife was just telling me today even 2 groups (TekScopes and the HPAK group) are too many and give me ideas. Like the 19-inch rack I just bought on eBay a week or so ago for $80. But that started with a used equipment house sending me an email at work about their rack sale; nothing to do with the groups. Of course I had to look at how much racks were on eBay. At $80 and local pick-up only right off the freeway on my way home from work, with the seats already removed from the van due to her buying used patio furniture, I figured it was a sign from God! Who am I to go against the Almighty when He so clearly gave me a sign?!

Anyway, good luck with the new group, if it ever gets off the ground.

Jim Ford

------ Original Message ------
From: "jslcanuck" <jonathan.canuck.levine@...>
To: TekScopes@groups.io
Sent: 8/1/2020 8:38:51 AM
Subject: Re: [TekScopes] OT - Any interest in starting a Tektronix Logic Analyzer Group? (with added bonus question!)

Noting that I'm replying nearly ten years after this posting, yes, an analyzer group is needed,
and I really don't think it should be Tek-specific. In fact, there are *already* various analyzer
groups here (both Tek and non-) that haven't seen a post. It's going to take a small group
of people (or maybe just one who's kind of obsessively nuts) to give one a proper launch. I
say open it up to Tek, HP, Arium, and whatever else anyone wants to pour in. In my experience
over in the Data I/O group, people and the potential for discussion is not enough; a critical mass
of useful files (docs and software) is what makes the difference and brings active users.

Bonus added question:

I have a TLA 510/520 I want to press into use. I have the 92C96 acquisition board, cable,
and leads - all the way to the individual two-pin signal (+gnd) leads meant to be plugged into
header pins on the target. That's where my problem starts - I need grabber clips (EZ-Hook,
KlipChip, etc.), but the grabbers only have a single pin and the probe cable won't fit onto
them. In the manual for this thing (under "optional accessories") they describe:

p/n 020-2108-00: Six 8-channel lead sets, 12 Y-cables, 72 KlipChip Adapters

Are these "Y-cables" little two-wire splitters that go between the probe tip and the grabber?



Re: OT - Any interest in starting a Tektronix Logic Analyzer Group? (with added bonus question!)

Harvey White
 

Interleaved comments
useful to demystify things like the I2C bus. Yes, there are other devices
(very cheap!  10 dollars) that can do that, but they are not data sensitive,
and there are times when I need that (what is byte XXX in message sent?)  For
me to *really* get an idea of what's going on, I'll need to write my own
protocol analyzer.
I've got a 10 dollar Saleae clone, and for a number of things, it's wonderful.  Does stuff that my HP16702B won't do without me digging into it and mastering what HP thought was simple.  I've got a fair amount of experience in programming, but I'm not sure that the HP is quite the right tool.
Hi Harvey; I don't follow... a common (and relatively cheap) protocol analyzer, such as a Beagle ( https://www.totalphase.com/products/beagle-i2cspi/ ), shows protocol details/data, and timing, with a little USB dongle. I have the I2C/SPI version, and the USB version. Works great for those specific serial buses.
Am I missing your point?
Yes, but it's because you don't have enough information to duplicate my viewpoint:

1) I just looked up the price of the Beagle.  I am now giving my wallet CPR....

2) I'm not sure that the beagle would do what I want.

The Saleae will take apart I2C (all that I'm interested in at the moment, and exactly what I needed when I was getting I2C packets working), and will tell me the exact binary/hex data stream. Wunnerful..... What it will NOT do, and can't, is to tell me that the header data field that specifies the type of chip I think I'm talking to is a PCA9634...  And it's in there some place when the packet destination is I2C.  Completely unreasonable for me to expect someone else to understand my custom data format for a packet, of course.

3) the Saleae will work only so fast and for so much data.  If I'm looking at the hardware itself, looking for glitches and unknown data patterns, and looking to see what else is going on in the system, sometimes the larger LA is better.  I did write, and have, written some descriptions for the HP that allow some taking apart and disassembly of the data stream.  On the other hand, I did that with a CPLD and took the serial data stream to a state/parallel stream, and used extra bits that the LA captured to identify address fields, start and stop data, etc.  Way before the Saleae was something I knew about.

I'm considering doing that in a program for an FPGA.  It captures the data and the auxiliary programming takes it apart.

Application example: A few years ago at HP, working on a storage controller that included a large SoC chip that included I2C for controlling power regulators in a startup sequence. Vendors docs were not detailed enough, and my power system design was a little different from their Reference Design, so there were issues. I used a Beagle to see and capture exactly what it was doing on power-up...
Hmmm, was teaching for the last 11 years or so, so I didn't have that resource (or that budget).  I think the problem is how specifically I can get the LA to interpret my data for me, and with the work I put into it, I rather expect it to be able to.


Simpler example, which I've needed multiple times: A CPU is trying to talk to something, but the I2C address is wrong. A Beagle immediately tells me what it's trying to do.
So does my LA, and so does the Saleae, for that matter.  I tend to have to develop applications from the ground up, and adding packet communications over I2C (which is piggybacked on an NRF24L01 protocol, hence 32 byte packets), was something I wished I had more (and easier) handles on), well....

So, for that matter, does the I2C address scanner I built into the project, pick the interface, and it pings everything on the bus by address.  It's a few menus down in the diagnostics.  Hit another touchscreen button and it (by address) tells you what you're talking to if it knows it, don't know who'd do that.

So for me, the bottom line goes several ways:

1) if it's low speed enough, and I don't need data analysis, and I don't need glitch information, but do need data... Saleae

2) if it's higher speed and I may need glitch information, the HP goes to work (I do have a Tek 308, it's cute, it's 16? channels, it's portable.  Did I mention it's cute?)

3) if I need exact packet analysis, then it's up to me to do the hardware and software.  Been there, doing that....

Not likely that I'm doing typical stuff, depending.

I'd like to get my 7D02 working, but that's not likely for now. Actually easier to go build the equivalent from scratch, which I just might do... I could look at some of the older 8 bit processors in the Tek stuff I have, that may not be working.

Thanks for the comments.

Harvey


Pete



Re: OT - Any interest in starting a Tektronix Logic Analyzer Group? (with added bonus question!)

@0culus
 

I was agreeing with you in a sideways fashion. ;o) The remaining applications are pretty niche. As far as I know DRAM manufacturers are the only ones who were really buying them in quantity. Small wonder that Tek discontinued the TLA lineup and recommends an MSO to replace it. Keysight might be the only company making benchtop LAs now.

Sean

On Sat, Aug 1, 2020 at 08:58 PM, Chuck Harris wrote:


I'm pretty sure I didn't say they were *totally* useless ;-)

Just not all that useful most of the time. Mine would
come off of the shelf more if it was more useful to use
it, than to use other ways.

When LA's were king of the world, board level designs were
pretty simple, and computer simulation was pretty slow and
useless. The tables have turned.

-Chuck Harris


Re: OT - Any interest in starting a Tektronix Logic Analyzer Group? (with added bonus question!)

Chuck Harris
 

I'm pretty sure I didn't say they were *totally* useless ;-)

Just not all that useful most of the time. Mine would
come off of the shelf more if it was more useful to use
it, than to use other ways.

When LA's were king of the world, board level designs were
pretty simple, and computer simulation was pretty slow and
useless. The tables have turned.

-Chuck Harris

sdturne@q.com wrote:

Chuck,

I wouldn't say logic analyzers are totally useless anymore. Certain niche professional applications remain, especially in the cybersecurity realm. And they are certainly still useful for vintage computer repairs and the like in hobby land.

Also, my decision to purchase a Tek TLA715 saved my bacon when I was doing my MS work and my design literally broke Xilinx ChipScope. I didn't have a huge number of outputs, so I tied them all to board pins and hooked up the TLA715. Worked great!

Sean





Re: OT - Any interest in starting a Tektronix Logic Analyzer Group? (with added bonus question!)

jslcanuck
 

it would seem to me that the place to discuss L.A.s in detail is on a forum that is focused
on the *application*, rather than the L.A. tool.
That argument doesn't hold a drop of water. If I discover my curve tracer is down and I'm trying
to fix it, should I be asking in a forum dedicated to the audio equipment from which the transistor
I want to use it to characterize came from?

If I'm trying to drive to Edmonton to see a play and my car breaks down, should I seek car repair
help in a group specializing in Alberta playwrites?

This isn't about the application. It's about the tool.


Re: OT - Any interest in starting a Tektronix Logic Analyzer Group? (with added bonus question!)

jslcanuck
 

Happy to have sparked a new discussion! (Though my initial impetus, the question about probe clips, remains unanswered.)

I think everyone here understands the various sides of this geometric solid. Yes, modern design techniques have largely
obviated the need. (Hell, back in the 80s, when I was embarking on my first bit-slice design, the people who were coaching
me said, "Forget about the analyzer - what you need is a writable control store and a very good clue.")

But there are also those cases when, as pointed out, things just aren't working the way they're supposed to, and there's
no substitute for actually digging in and seeing what's going on down on the ground. And they're absolutely irreplaceable
when reverse-engineering systems, especially old ones. In fact, the reason this has bubbled up is that a bunch of us are
engaged in just that over in another group, digging into the guts of a 30+ year old piece of digital development equipment
to see if we can make it do the things the manufacturer said it couldn't. (Hint: We're winning.)

So the applications are there, but they're not the point of what I'm talking about. No matter the nature of your need, if you
feel it's time for an analyzer, you oughta be able to find the information necessary to make the one you're choosing work
and be useful. And this is much harder than you think, because the manuals and software for a lot of these machines
have been lost to the sands of time. So it's absolutely necessary to resist Balkanization: I'm going to have a Tek group,
and you can have the HP group, and we'll let some loser take care of the Ariums because my fingers would never touch a
tool so trifling. Screw that. It's all for one, one for all, and (finally) a single group where people can put, find, and talk about
this stuff, *regardless* of what they're using it for.

</rant>


Re: Tektronix 2230

Saroj Pradhan
 

Hi Satbeginner
I did replace u930 by new one.
Now the spike during off time of the pulse gone. I have attached the
measurement.
Thanks
Saroj

On Sat, Aug 1, 2020, 9:14 PM satbeginner <@satbeginner> wrote:

Hello Saroj,

I was busy the past few days, hence my late reaction...

C907 being not there (open connection or broken capacitor) will definitely
be of influence to the switchers behaviour.
I see in your pictures (especially TP45 !) a extra spikes in between the
pulses I would not expect to see, which are also not in the service manual.

This could be related to a wrongly chosen reference point for the
groundlead of the testprobe.
I looked in the 2232 Service manual and the 2230, and I found them not
quite clear in describing where the ground lead of your probe should go, so
I checked the 2215A service manual too, and I found that better.
In the 2215A manual next to each testpoint it is clearly stated where the
ground lead should go.
I will add that page of the 2251A manual to the album with your pictures.

Added in your album: https://groups.io/g/TekScopes/album?id=250384


In the 2215A and 2230 service manual you can see the extra spikes should
not be there.

I would be very interested in the TP at the Gate of the switching FET.
(TP38 in the 2215A SM, TP45 in the 2230 SM), that should use TP940 as
ground reference.
Beware! your 2230 scope under test must be running using the isolation
transformer for these measurements!

I also found the amplitudes I could read from your pictures quite
different from the ones in the service manual.

For now I would first concentrate on the power supply, and look at the
vertical deflection later.

Stay safe,

Leo