Date   

Re: Topic title debate, was RE: [TekScopes] 7000 still hard to beat

fiftythreebuick <ae5i@...>
 

Hi Grant-

Thanks much for your thoughtful post!

From reading the messages in this thread, it appears that the source of disagreement is the fact that different folks experience a very different level of aggravation from subject drift in a thread. Honestly, what you referred to about clicking on a thread and finding out that the subject has drifted significantly from what the header advertises really doesn't bother me at all. But, I realize that it aggravates the very daylights out of some folks! :-) And you're right, I do initially read new messages in an email digest. I get into a browser to reply or to read a whole thread though.

I do hope the issue does not continue to disturb the nature of the group. Too much good info and too many good folks here!

Tom

On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 01:51 PM, G Hopper wrote:


Tom,
I think one reason you might not appreciate Craig's comment and position is
twofold. First, is that I would guess that you're reading the posts via
email and so, I agree, it is very easy to delete, but I think we've all
been at the spot where we open an email thinking it is about one thing, and
it turns out to be about something different. The extreme of that is spam
advertising. Opening an email thinking it's about 7000 series stuff only to
find it doesn't have anything to do with the stated subject except in a
vague or oblique way, can be just as frustrating and would also fit the
definition of spam from a content point of view.

Second is that when searching on line and hoping to find an answer,
particularly with detail or troubleshooting, I personally find it more
pleasing to not have a lot of extraneous stuff in a topic/subject thread.
While it seems impossible to achieve these days, it's a laudable, and
apparently achievable goal.

Having said that, When I opened the thread, I didn't expect a 7000 only
post. In fact, the post pretty much fit what I expected, a story. In fact
the subject like practically advertised that there would be a story. I did
like the story as well :-) After all, it told of reasons why the 7000
series is useful and part of that is an incredibly necessary explanation of
how and why the writer came to that conclusion so that as readers we might
consider whether we agree with his premise that "7000 still hard to beat".
He seemed to tell a story that made that point well.

So, in my estimation of things, Craig's original premise (that the OP's
"subject" and contents were inconsistent and not appropriately descriptive)
wasn't reasonable, but his comments about keeping reply posts on topic or
at least highly pertinent to the original topic was (again IMHO) a good and
important point we should all endeavor to subscribe to.

Grant


On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 1:33 PM fiftythreebuick <ae5i@netdoor.com> wrote:

Hi Craig-

I must be missing something....

If I click on a thread and see that it's veered off topic so that it's no
longer of interest to me, it only takes oh maybe 3 - 5 seconds to click on
another thread. That doesn't seem like a big deal to me, but am I missing
something? I genuinely don't understand the problem!

Have a great evening!

Tom


On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 08:02 AM, Craig Sawyers wrote:


Here's the thing Chuck - if the topic was called something like "2465B
and
7000 series - a comparison"
or something similar that would have been more informative of the thread
topic.

I have a lot of interest in the 7000 series and none at all in the 2465B
(apart from anything else I
have no room left for any other series!) - hence my chagrin at opening
posts
and expecting it to be
about the 7000 series and finding it was something else entirely.

Frustratingly this happens all the time, and renders it difficult to
impossible to find relevant posts
in the archives.

There is one list I'm a long standing member of
(https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/index.php ) where
if a thread strays off topic the mods simply delete the straying posts,
often
within minutes. And
don't even tell you if and why your post has vanished.

I'm not remotely suggesting that we go down that route - just a little
more
discipline in (a) using
an informative title for the thread and (b) if the thread changes to a
different topic to change the
working title to reflect that.

We agree about the politics entirely ;-)

Craig

-----Original Message-----
From: TekScopes@groups.io [mailto:TekScopes@groups.io] On Behalf Of
Chuck
Harris
Sent: 05 November 2019 14:48
To: TekScopes@groups.io
Subject: Re: [TekScopes] 7000 still hard to beat

Craig,

You are out of line here. You are my friend, but you are
wrong.

Peter opened this thread describing how his go to 2465B
fell short of his needs, forcing him to resort to a
combination of 7A22 and 7000 series scope to make his
measurement.

That was an obvious opening for both 2465B fans, and
7000 series fans to discuss the topic.

To add fuel to this fire, I calibrate lots of 2465 family
scopes, for group members, but my go to scope is a 7854
for the same reason that Peter went to his 7103/7A22 to
solve his difficult task.

I keep my 7854 stuffed with an assortment of plugins that
meet my daily needs in a way I just can't with the highly
capable, portable, but ultimately limited 2465B.

Discussions on this group are never fixed and ridged they
wiggle and squirm their way into different discussions...

But excepting for your tirade, this discussion has stuck
to its original course. It started as a discussion of
2465B's vs 7000 series versatility, and so it has remained.

Be glad that we haven't veered into politics.

-Chuck Harris

Craig Sawyers wrote:
Don't agree. When I open a post that is "7000 still hard to beat" I
expect
to find posts on the
topic
of the 7000 series scopes and plug ins. Not the 2465B.

There is nothing more frustrating than keeping a message title and
digressing onto another topic.

Craig

-----Original Message-----
From: TekScopes@groups.io [mailto:TekScopes@groups.io] On Behalf Of
Polaraligned
Sent: 05 November 2019 01:52
To: TekScopes@groups.io
Subject: Re: [TekScopes] 7000 still hard to beat

Well that is a little rude Craig. The OP clearly states that a
2465B is
his main scope and he
only
pulled
out a R7103 and put in a 7A22 for greater sensitivity and
differential
input. My simple question
was
asking if there was an active probe with diff inputs that could
increase
his main scope, the
2465B.









Re: So long...

Dave Daniel
 

Seconded.

DaveD

Sent from a small flat thingy

On Nov 5, 2019, at 21:40, John Griessen <john@ecosensory.com> wrote:

On 11/5/19 6:51 PM, Craig Sawyers wrote:
it is
finally time to sign off.
OK, but come back if you miss the conversation.



Re: So long...

John Griessen
 

On 11/5/19 6:51 PM, Craig Sawyers wrote:
it is
finally time to sign off.
OK, but come back if you miss the conversation.


Re: vintageTEK scanned transformer drawings for 120-0998-01 and up ( 120-197 )

 

Hi Kurt :
Thanks a lot for your information !!!
RegardTony CheungNOV 6 2019

On Wednesday, November 6, 2019, 07:26:44 AM GMT+8, Kurt Rosenfeld <kurt.harlem@gmail.com> wrote:

Here is the 120-197 drawing:

http://w140.com/tekwiki/images/c/cd/Tek_120-0197-00.pdf


Re: Can anyone in the Seattle area copy a 2764DC EPROM

J. L. Trantham
 

I likely have a means of reading, archiving and programming a chip.

Can you give me a more complete description of the device? Manufacturer, a
picture of the chip, ect.?

Joe

-----Original Message-----
From: TekScopes@groups.io [mailto:TekScopes@groups.io] On Behalf Of Dennis
Tillman W7PF
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2019 3:09 PM
To: TekScopes@groups.io
Subject: [TekScopes] Can anyone in the Seattle area copy a 2764DC EPROM

I need to get a 2764DC EPROM copied to a text file in (preferably) BIN
Format.
It contains the Version 2.0 executable code for the 7000 series 021-0374-00
GPIB Decoder Plugin.
These GPIB Decoder plugins are extremely rare and it would be valuable to
have a copy of this version of the EPROM software for our archives.
They are used to control the 7xxxP programmable plugins in the 7912AD,
7912HB, and 7854.
Pictures of this plugin can be seen on TekWiki at:
http://proxy.w140.com/tekwiki/wiki/021-0374-00

I'm in Bellevue on the Eastside.
If you are nearby contact me OFF LIST at dennis at ridesoft dot com.
Dennis Tillman W7PF



--
Dennis Tillman W7PF
TekScopes Moderator


Re: So long...

Mlynch001
 

Craig,

Hate to see you go, but I also understand your reason for leaving. I have enjoyed reading your comments and learning from you.

Best of luck going forward.
--
Michael Lynch
Dardanelle, AR


Re: So long...

Vince Vielhaber
 

You will be missed.

Vince.

On 11/05/2019 07:51 PM, Craig Sawyers wrote:
Hi all



I've been thinking about this for quite a while. But I think after 18 years on Tekscopes it is
finally time to sign off. In part it is because I think I have said all there is that I can possibly
say on Tekscopes, and in part because I just figured out that I have posted over 4,600 times - an
exceptionally depressing number, even more so when it represents 14% of all posts to Tekscopes ever.
That is one in every seven posts, heaven help us all, that I reckon to be over 800 hours of typing,
not counting the thinking time.



So to the many people who are on this list who have helped me to figure out problems in my stable of
Tektronix gear - my heartfelt thanks. There have been notable assistance above and beyond the call -
as an example, while describing a particular fault in my 7854, one of the list members disconnected
the sampling bridge in his own unit to mimic the fault! And yes, my vertical sampling bridge was
indeed toast. You have all been an inspiration, and I hope that some of you think of me as a friend.
I also hope that over the years I have been able to contribute something to others.



Anyhow - cheers all



Signing off



Craig Sawyers







So long...

Craig Sawyers <c.sawyers@...>
 

Hi all



I've been thinking about this for quite a while. But I think after 18 years on Tekscopes it is
finally time to sign off. In part it is because I think I have said all there is that I can possibly
say on Tekscopes, and in part because I just figured out that I have posted over 4,600 times - an
exceptionally depressing number, even more so when it represents 14% of all posts to Tekscopes ever.
That is one in every seven posts, heaven help us all, that I reckon to be over 800 hours of typing,
not counting the thinking time.



So to the many people who are on this list who have helped me to figure out problems in my stable of
Tektronix gear - my heartfelt thanks. There have been notable assistance above and beyond the call -
as an example, while describing a particular fault in my 7854, one of the list members disconnected
the sampling bridge in his own unit to mimic the fault! And yes, my vertical sampling bridge was
indeed toast. You have all been an inspiration, and I hope that some of you think of me as a friend.
I also hope that over the years I have been able to contribute something to others.



Anyhow - cheers all



Signing off



Craig Sawyers


Re: tektronix 7S14 batteries and time base question

 

On Wed, Nov 6, 2019 at 12:08 AM, Dennis Tillman W7PF wrote:


Hi Raymond,
You're a stickler for the specs. You are correct on both accounts but I
believe I was able to work around them:
1) The bandwidth is 350MHz but I use a 7A29 in the horizontal slot which
probably accounted for my impression that I got greater than 350MHz.
2) Option 2 (phase compensation), which is not a common option, would be
necessary for some applications but I did not need it. I use a 7A29 Option 4
Variable Delay plugin to adjust phase if I need to.
Hi Dennis,
Thanks for that information.
I guess I should have made the following disclosure:
About a year ago, I acquired a 7104 with option 2. My first 7104 didn't have that.

This 7104 with 2 x 7A29 (one has option 4) and a 7B15 (no 7B10) is in an absolutely pristine condition: The painted parts of the case are still silky dull all over, not the local leathery look that develops from touching, even the bent and cut edges are still covered in paint, no Al shining through. It definitely has *not* been repainted, as can be seen when inspecting the inside of the panels and it matches the overall condition. No dust, it has obviously been stored in the dark (no yellowing of buttons, no paint abrasion of printed texts on buttons). Very late series. And of course, the MCP CRT has virtually no traces of use. The inside of the instrument looks absolutely new.
Obviously, a like-new service manual was included.
The instrument was "used" in a university-affiliated lab, where it was kept in a closet, only to be brought out when necessary for some job and returned immediately afterward. I guess they realized the cost and vulnerability of the toy. The only things missing were the original cardboard box and packaging materials....
I'm keeping it in a dark place that's actually more like a vault...

Re. the OCXOVT-BV5 ovenized oscillator: I also bought a few (4) some years ago and used one as the time base in my 2252 portable 'scope. In that 'scope the PLL circuits had failed. A simple phase detector built with a 74LS86 EXOR gate as an external replacement sorted that out.

Raymond


Re: vintageTEK scanned transformer drawings for 120-0998-01 and up ( 120-197 )

Kurt Rosenfeld
 


Re: New file uploaded to TekScopes@groups.io

Craig Sawyers <c.sawyers@...>
 

Another great piece of work, Dennis! Thanks for uploading that.



Craig



From: TekScopes@groups.io [mailto:TekScopes@groups.io] On Behalf Of TekScopes@groups.io Notification
Sent: 05 November 2019 22:48
To: TekScopes@groups.io
Subject: [TekScopes] New file uploaded to TekScopes@groups.io



Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that the following files have been uploaded to the Files area of the TekScopes@groups.io <mailto:TekScopes@groups.io> group.

* /Tek 7D11 <https://groups.io/g/TekScopes/files/Tek%207D11%20&;%207D14%20&%207D15%20OCXO.pdf> & 7D14 & 7D15 OCXO.pdf

Uploaded By: Dennis Tillman W7PF <dennis@ridesoft.com <mailto:dennis@ridesoft.com> >

Description:
Replacement OCXO (Oven Controlled Crystal Oscillator) for the XO (Crystal Oscillator) in the 7D11, 7D14, and 7D15 plugins by Dennis Tillman W7PF

Cheers,
The Groups.io Team


Re: 130 LC meter

Craig Sawyers <c.sawyers@...>
 

Agreed - that was my experience with the RA17. Of course I have a 130 LC meter (no surprise there!)
and the only thing I had to do was replace the smoothing electrolytic, which had gone down with the
"Sprague twist-lock disconnection issue". Haven't fired it up in quite a while; must do so and make
sure it is still alive.

Craig

The old silver mica caps were used in lots of antique AM broadcast radios (1930s -1960s),
particularly in
the IF stages. They were known to cause a phenomenon called "thunderstorming", which, even
when receiving a strong station, caused a random loud static that sounded exactly like a nearby
thunderstorm. This was caused by the silver deposits on the surfaces of the mica layers actually
migrating toward the edges of the mica slabs. The high voltages used in those old tube radios drew
the silver atoms toward the edges of the mica, and when enough silver migrated to the edges, there
was enough current leakage in the capacitor to cause the "static" noise.
Of course, the only solution was to replace the old micas with new ones and retune the IF stages.

Spoken from experience {:>)
Dave M


Re: vintageTEK scanned transformer drawings for 120-0998-01 and up ( 120-197 )

Kurt Rosenfeld
 


Re: Topic title debate, was RE: [TekScopes] 7000 still hard to beat

Craig Sawyers <c.sawyers@...>
 

Chuck

I recall more than a few instances where you willfully dragged a thread down a direction that the
Subject didn't expose...
OK - you got me fair and square. I *hope* I changed the topic line ;-)

And, if it "happens all the time", maybe it is actually normal for the group, rather than an
outlier, as
you suppose.

-Chuck Harris
I really have no problem at all with a conversation going off in another direction, but if we do so,
we really ought to strive to change the subject line to reflect that.

That is as much a reminder to myself to make sure I do so rigorously with my own posts when I myself
subvert a thread!

Craig


7854 Error Codes

Fred S.
 

Hi,
where can I find the error codes for the7854 displayed by the vertical and horizontal mode switches.
In my case all vertical mode switches are lit and Chop and B on the horizontal mode switches.
--
Best regards,

Fred S.


Re: Can anyone in the Seattle area copy a 2764DC EPROM

GerryR <totalautomation1@...>
 

You probably don't want to take the chance, but if you can't find anyone local to make the copy, you are welcome to send it to me and I would be happy to copy it for you. Also, I haven't checked for compatibility, but I have a couple of AM27C64-120DC IC's that I could program and send along, as well.
GerryR
KK4GER

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dennis Tillman W7PF" <dennis@ridesoft.com>
To: <TekScopes@groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2019 4:08 PM
Subject: [TekScopes] Can anyone in the Seattle area copy a 2764DC EPROM


I need to get a 2764DC EPROM copied to a text file in (preferably) BIN
Format.
It contains the Version 2.0 executable code for the 7000 series 021-0374-00
GPIB Decoder Plugin.
These GPIB Decoder plugins are extremely rare and it would be valuable to
have a copy of this version of the EPROM software for our archives.
They are used to control the 7xxxP programmable plugins in the 7912AD,
7912HB, and 7854.
Pictures of this plugin can be seen on TekWiki at:
http://proxy.w140.com/tekwiki/wiki/021-0374-00

I'm in Bellevue on the Eastside.
If you are nearby contact me OFF LIST at dennis at ridesoft dot com.
Dennis Tillman W7PF



--
Dennis Tillman W7PF
TekScopes Moderator


Re: tektronix 7S14 batteries and time base question

 

Hi Raymond,
You're a stickler for the specs. You are correct on both accounts but I believe I was able to work around them:
1) The bandwidth is 350MHz but I use a 7A29 in the horizontal slot which probably accounted for my impression that I got greater than 350MHz.
2) Option 2 (phase compensation), which is not a common option, would be necessary for some applications but I did not need it. I use a 7A29 Option 4 Variable Delay plugin to adjust phase if I need to.

I have owned three ARGOSystems AS210 Rubidium (Rb) Standards for over 10 years. They are very interesting systems. They were designed to fit into a TM515 Traveler Main Frame so they would be portable and could be used in the field whenever it was necessary to make precise measurements based on an accurate frequency standard. The TM515 is gutted then the Rb oscillator is installed along side a new smaller power than the original TM515 supply. A fan is added to keep everything cool. The rear interface board was replaced with a custom one. All of the plugins phase lock to the Rb oscillator. The one that is of particular importance to this story is the AS-210-03 Frequency Generator which generates several fixed reference frequencies (1MHz, 10MHz, 50MHz, 100MHz, 200MHz, ... 500MHz).

The Achilles heel of the system became apparent when I asked John Miles to evaluate the Rb Oscillator - the heart of the system. Its Phase Noise performance was poor. In other words it has a lot of phase noise.

One day I decided to see if it would be possible to view a 100MHz Lissajous circle from the AS-210-03 Frequency Generator on a 7000 scope in X/Y mode. I first tried this on a 7603. I was puzzled when it didn't work. Next I tried it on a 7704A which was a 200MHz scope so I expected it would work. The result was the same. Scratching my head I tried it on a 7854, a 400MHz scope. The results were no better. There was no horizontal deflection. That is when I discovered every Tek 7000 scope (but one) has a very limited horizontal capability. I always assumed the horizontal signal chain had to be as fast as the vertical but that was because I never thought about it. The horizontal bandwidth / sensitivity is lower due to the deflection plates being further forward from the vertical deflection plates. Checking the specs of several scopes confirmed the horizontal amplifier was not fast except for the 7104's 350MHz Horizontal BW. Now I had a way to do this little experiment.

First I adjusted all three of my ARGOSystems AS210s to the output of my Thunderbolt based GPS Frequency Receiver (which I own thanks to John Miles). Once each ARGOSystems AS210 was fine tuned to match the GPS reference I disconnected it. The AS210s were each running on their own at this point but they are stable to 10^-9.

Next I fed the output of the AS-210-03 Frequency Generator in the FIRST ARGOSystems AS210 to the 7A29 vertical amplifier of the 7104. Then I fed the AS210-03 Frequency Generator in the SECOND ARGOSystems AS210 to the 7A29 horizontal amplifier of the 7104. Both ARGOSystems were completely independent. I started out at 100MHz on both AS210-03s and got a perfect Lissajous circle (with some phase noise which added fuzz to it). As I increased the frequency to 200MHz, then 300MHz, and 400MHz the circle got progressively fuzzier due to the phase noise but it was still a circle. At 500MHz the horizontal gain began to drop a noticeable amount which was easy to fix by increasing the gain of the 7A29 to 200mV/Div in each axis.

The phase noise fuzz was now the dominant thing on the screen. It almost obscured the circle. But the circle was still there and I could see the phase slowly starting to shift between the two Rb standards. Each full turn of the circle represented a phase shift of 360 degrees. This was occurring every 2 to 5 seconds. From that I concluded the Rb standards were within ~1/2Hz of each other on average at 500MHz. That is on the order of 500 x 10^6 / 0.5 = 10 ^9 or 1 part in a billion over a 5 second period.

I didn't stop there. I put two 7D14 Frequency Counter plugins into the 7104 to measure the 500MHz frequency going to each 7A29. The first time I did this I was very disappointed to see the 7D14 crystal time base stability was only good to the first 6 on-screen digits but it displays a full 8 digits. I was not going to accept that. I found 8 OCXOVT-BV5 10MHz OCXOs for $10 each on eBay about 6 years ago that were 100X better than the original 7D14 crystal. Since the same crystal is used in the 7D11, 7D14, and 7D15 I designed a simple drop-in replacement PC Board and built 8 of them as replacements in my plugins. I put a detailed description of what this little side project was all about up on TekScopes. It is in the files section. It is called "Tek 7D11 & 7D14 & 7D15 OCXO.pdf" and it is at:

https://groups.io/g/TekScopes/files/Tek%207D11%20&;%207D14%20&%207D15%20OCXO.pdf

Dennis Tillman W7PF

-----Original Message-----
From: Raymond Domp Frank
Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2019 4:13 PM

On Mon, Nov 4, 2019 at 12:35 AM, Dennis Tillman W7PF wrote:
The astounding 7104 is capable of displaying X/Y waveforms to over 1
GHz since the 3dB bandwidth of the internal 7104 horizontal amplifier is >400MHz.
Hi Dennis,
Thanks for the info on the 7S14 vs. 7T11/S11.
Two questions:
1. Is your >400 MHz horizontal BW for the 7104 a number from general experience? The spec is 350 MHz but of course, Tek always exceeded its specs...
2. Isn't Option 2 (phase correction) a virtual necessity for correct phase interpretation of XY displays at higher frequencies? For this also I'm making an appeal on your practical experience with this 'scope.

Raymond




--
Dennis Tillman W7PF
TekScopes Moderator


Re: 130 LC meter

 

The old silver mica caps were used in lots of antique AM broadcast radios (1930s -1960s), particularly in the IF stages. They were known to cause a phenomenon called "thunderstorming", which, even when receiving a strong station, caused a random loud static that sounded exactly like a nearby thunderstorm. This was caused by the silver deposits on the surfaces of the mica layers actually migrating toward the edges of the mica slabs. The high voltages used in those old tube radios drew the silver atoms toward the edges of the mica, and when enough silver migrated to the edges, there was enough current leakage in the capacitor to cause the "static" noise.
Of course, the only solution was to replace the old micas with new ones and retune the IF stages.

Spoken from experience {:>)
Dave M


Re: Topic title debate, was RE: [TekScopes] 7000 still hard to beat

Chuck Harris
 

Craig,

I recall more than a few instances where you willfully dragged
a thread down a direction that the Subject didn't expose...

Why is it ok when you do it?

And, if it "happens all the time", maybe it is actually normal
for the group, rather than an outlier, as you suppose.

-Chuck Harris


Craig Sawyers wrote:

Here's the thing Chuck - if the topic was called something like "2465B and 7000 series - a comparison"
or something similar that would have been more informative of the thread topic.

I have a lot of interest in the 7000 series and none at all in the 2465B (apart from anything else I
have no room left for any other series!) - hence my chagrin at opening posts and expecting it to be
about the 7000 series and finding it was something else entirely.

Frustratingly this happens all the time, and renders it difficult to impossible to find relevant posts
in the archives.

There is one list I'm a long standing member of (https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/index.php ) where
if a thread strays off topic the mods simply delete the straying posts, often within minutes. And
don't even tell you if and why your post has vanished.

I'm not remotely suggesting that we go down that route - just a little more discipline in (a) using
an informative title for the thread and (b) if the thread changes to a different topic to change the
working title to reflect that.

We agree about the politics entirely ;-)

Craig


New file uploaded to TekScopes@groups.io

TekScopes@groups.io Notification <TekScopes+notification@...>
 

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that the following files have been uploaded to the Files area of the TekScopes@groups.io group.

Uploaded By: Dennis Tillman W7PF <dennis@...>

Description:
Replacement OCXO (Oven Controlled Crystal Oscillator) for the XO (Crystal Oscillator) in the 7D11, 7D14, and 7D15 plugins by Dennis Tillman W7PF

Cheers,
The Groups.io Team

15301 - 15320 of 176601