On Mon, Feb 11, 2019 at 09:49 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote:

The bright way is to stop the practice of artificially disabling image
attachments.

Motion to "stop the practice of artificially disabling image attachments" so we can show off our Tektronix gear and project(s) in an easier to reference way and means.

Has there been a committee formed to investigate why not, if not second'ed? :-|)

On Feb 12, 2019, at 00:37, John Griessen <john@ecosensory.com> wrote:

I've seen some photos sent with emails. They were not "attached" like email definition of attached,
but rather in-lined in a HTML email. If you use thunderbird email reader to compose, it won't allow
an attachment with a text email, but will happily add an in-lined image in HTML emails.

Yes, but where do these inline image references point?
The author of that e-mail would have needed to put them up at some image hosting service to be able to inline the references to them.
These notoriously go away for various reasons (the service itself goes down, or the user account expires for some reason).
This means that after a year or two, the message archive has tons of messages with unusable inline image references.
For a list like tekscopes, where messages often have a lot of archival value after five years or ten, this is not a very bright way to run things.

The bright way is to stop the practice of artificially disabling image attachments.

Grüße, Carsten

Here is the video and it does seem to work.

https://youtu.be/BnR_DLd1PDI

George

On 2/11/19 5:20 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote:

you cant "attach" them to your email

I've seen some photos sent with emails. They were not "attached" like email definition of attached,
but rather in-lined in a HTML email. If you use thunderbird email reader to compose, it won't allow
an attachment with a text email, but will happily add an in-lined image in HTML emails.

On Feb 9, 2019, at 18:32, Artekmedia <manuals@artekmanuals.com> wrote:

Actually you can post pictures but you have to UPLOAD them to the photos section , you cant "attach" them to your email however. It has ALWAYS been that way since the group began over a decade ago.

Ceterum censeo:
This may have been appropriate at the start of the century, but no longer is.
Groups.io has the controls to allow lower-bitrate participants to follow even in the presence of images.
Repeated discussion shows that it is time to fix this longstanding problem.

Grüße, Carsten

On Sun, Feb 10, 2019 at 10:12 PM, 12ax7 wrote:

on to the PSU for cap replacement.

Well sounds like a real condition. I would recommend that you replace all of the 10uf,100uf,180uf and 250uf caps and this will probably get you back in operation. Hopefully you have a good desolder station to prevent damage to the boards.

Craig

Hello everyone, I just wanted your input on something. This is about the graticule lighting in Tektronix scopes. I have a 310A, 503, 531 and a 545a that has the red "paint" for the graticule and I really like it and its easier on my eyes to look at. However, my RM565 and both of my 561A do not have the red option. Has anyone here tried to so anything to get that red on the screen? I only ask since I seem to use my 565 the most, has a very bright blue trace and the white markings tends to strain my eyes. Any advice is welcome!


Brenda

I have a Uni-T UT81B that I bought to troubleshoot some Tek 2247 power supplies.  Works ok, build quality is a bit rough inside.  
I use a Rigol MSO1104Z for a bench scope, I don't hate, or like it any more than the HP DSO3062A it replacedI actually preferred the controls on the TDS 210.  Digital scopes aren't analog, end of discussion.
General observation of what friends have bought is that the Uni-T stuff might actually meet UL specifications, some Chinese units I have seen would not meet safety specificationsbeyond low voltage (20? volts).
If you stick to better known brands like Rigol or Siglent you should be ok.
Jimn8qoh On ‎Tuesday‎, ‎February‎ ‎5‎, ‎2019‎ ‎09‎:‎39‎:‎12‎ ‎PM‎ ‎EST, John Williams <books4you@telus.net> wrote:

Hi. This may be totally off topic and may even upset some of you. I hope not so here goes.

I am wondering if anybody has any experience with the Chinese oscilloscopes such as the Uni-T 2025 family. I am thinking of bringing one in to evaluate and compare to tektronix models of similar specs.  I would be grateful if someone had experience with this type of equipment and would comment. If they are junk I would like to know or if they are useful that would be the sort of thing I would like to know. Thanks. John

The 2465B has two modes for the front panel, settable from
the EXER and diagnostics menu. This menu can be reached by
pressing and holding the Delta T and Delta V buttons and while
holding, press the SLOPE button. The screen will come up in
the Diagnostic and Exercise menu. The Trigger mode button
allows you to move up and down in the menu, and the upper
Trigger Coupling button selects the menu item.

Go to EXER06, and you can select from either starting in the
same state as power down, or starting in the state stored as
SETUP 1.

If you want to custom set the SETUPS, including #1, you will
have to go into EXER07, and ENABLE SAVE AND SEQUENCE CHANGE,
or ENABLE SAVE 1-8, NO SEQ-CHANGE.

Pressing trigger A/B gets you out of the diagnostic menu.

-Chuck Harris

OBTW, U800 needs no special cooling. Those that tell you U800
is critical are mistaken. The scope is rated to 55C ambient
temperature. It can easily handle anything you are going to
want to expose yourself to. The fan is ball bearing. Usually
all that is needed to quiet it to factory new is to oil both
the inner and outer ball bearing. This is done by removing the
label, removing the "C" clip from the shaft, removing the
fan from the motor, and then extracting both ball bearings, and
center spacing spring.

Put them in a jar of light motor oil, and let them soak for
a couple of hours... less actually, but good to be sure.

Assembly is the reverse of disassembly.

Froggie the Gremlin wrote:

Matt, whatever you do, don't give up on it! You'll love the scope once it's running right.

The service manual is your friend. The circuit description really does contain what you need to know to troubleshoot the various sections of the scope. Those are the most complete, well written manuals that I have ever seen for anything. My favorite tool for working on the power supplies in a scope like this would be another scope with a differential comparator vertical unit installed. A 545A with a Type W, or a 7623A with a couple of 7A13s or something similar.

Please don't hesitate to contact me off-list if I can be of any help!

Tom

Matt Russell
Feb 10 #154276

they are really an amazing device for certain. I know it is out of my league, but I will do all in my power to get this thing back to its normal operation. I literally saw a video about it and how it modulated it 6.3v heater circuit, and I just knew when I heard how it all operates, that I need to have one period. Any information that you have I will happily accept.

There is an easy way to identify the outside foil, if it exists, with only common workshop things - I hope most of us have at least one oscilloscope? Just connect the capacitor across the input and grab the cap in your fingers without touching any of the bare wires. Try this with the capacitor connected both ways and the way where the most noise is seen has the outside foil connected to the signal lead. As the meerkat says, "simples".
Colin.

Identifying outside foil: (1) Audio generator across cap, set below transition frequency; (2) Sniff around cap with signal tracer; (3) Do this with cap wired both ways; (4) Whichever is quieter has outside foil grounded.

It's possible to make a cap without a clearly identifiable outside foil (think stacked-foil), but doing so using the wound type of construction requires willful perversion.

Dave Wise
________________________________________
From: TekScopes@groups.io <TekScopes@groups.io> on behalf of Michael A. Terrell <mike.terrell@earthlink.net>
Sent: Monday, February 11, 2019 9:06 AM
To: TekScopes@groups.io
Subject: Re: [TekScopes] Tek 555 Capacitor Replacement List?

I saw a project online to build something o identify the outside foil. It may have been Mr. Carson's Lab on Youtube.

Another thing to watch out for: Sprague uses a 2 in a circle for their branding, but some people advertise other brands as Sprague that are missing their branding.


Michael A. Terrell


-----Original Message-----

From: Renée <k6fsb.1@gmail.com>
Sent: Feb 11, 2019 11:55 AM
To: TekScopes@groups.io
Subject: Re: [TekScopes] Tek 555 Capacitor Replacement List?

beware there are a number of caps that the line does not indicate
outside foil , seems like it is just the side that indicates where to
begin reading the info.
I have a number of newer orange drops where the marker is incorrect.
Renée

Hello all: Restoring one of each, recapped A5, new Dallay NVRAM,

a/ CAL: The HOR CAL seems OK but CH1 and CH 2 vertical are off 3..5% VER CAL next.
Anyone have tips in VER CAL , (using PG506)?
Even if other functions CAL seem OK, should I still do a full CAL?

b/INIT: 2465B CTT op 06 (SN 066xxx) is losing the panel settings at next turn on and default to 50 mv/DIV AC coupling etc regardless of previous settings.
This symptom appeared even before the old NV RAM failed and was replaced.

Besides CAL data does the NVRAM also get FP settings written at shutdown? Since NV RAM is new and works and the scope seems to initialize and shutdown normally, what can cause this symptom?

c/ Misc cleanup:

A5 board options connector J4241 mates to the option ribbon cable with 2 connectors on the A5 end and 2 more with greater separation on options end. That links A5 to CTT options board. At A5, The second connector and thick cable loop interferes with the NVRAM as the machine pin socket raises it a bit. Any reason not to just cutoff the unused connectors?

Fan is noisy, replacement is the NIDEC Beta SL?
Many models exist, since cooling is critical (eg U800), and I have 12V 0.12 and 12V 0.16 A models. Any recommendations on best replacement part?

Usual dead graticule lamps, any pitfalls in replacing? Suggest the original incandescent lamps or try LEDs?

MANY THANKS TO ALL!

Jon

I saw a project online to build something o identify the outside foil. It may have been Mr. Carson's Lab on Youtube.

Another thing to watch out for: Sprague uses a 2 in a circle for their branding, but some people advertise other brands as Sprague that are missing their branding.


Michael A. Terrell

beware there are a number of caps that the line does not indicate outside foil , seems like it is just the side that indicates where to begin reading the info.
I have a number of newer orange drops where the marker is incorrect.
Renée

Don Tucker was actually the originator of those QSL cards. See https://vintagetek.org/terac-qsl-card-program/

Don's contact information is on https://vintagetek.org/tektronix-hams/

On Sun, 10 Feb 2019 21:02:49 -0800, you wrote:

On Sun, Feb 10, 2019 at 05:56 PM, Harvey White wrote:

If you're reverse-engineering 40 year old equipment firmware, you might make

an argument

for a PM103.

Actually, I'd not want to go any further without the firmware for the
PM103 and a good schematic.

I should have that manual somewhere, but the only thing I could find was the PM101 manual.
There may be some firmware compatibility issues between versions.

Likely, I'd bet.

My fuzzy memory thinks that, for early processors, it's a matter of decoding the clocks
and latching the address and data lines, looking up the opcode in a table and sending
that on to the analyzer. Problem is that you'd have to reverse engineer and program
the protocol that communicates all that to the logic analyzer for display. The 7D02
is pretty dumb. It relies on the personality module for the details.
It got terminally hairy when processors started doing things like branch prediction
and queuing. You can't model that in a personality module on a couple of watts.

Not easily, no. Of course what I'd need is the dumb stuff, so not a
problem.

If I *did* not find it, I'd keep the 7D02, but I'd more easily
consider a special purpose FPGA that knew about the signals on the
6802, knew how to get them, and then put them in a FIFO.

That should be easily determined from the processor architecture.
The magic of the 7D02 was in the sequential state machine triggering
to decide what to put into acquisition memory and when to trigger.
I doubt that info was ever published. That was long before you could
just archive stuff on a thumb drive.

The state machine may be the problem with this. Hence, getting a
PM103 would be ideal. Second best would be the manual at this point,
and then a copy of the firmware ROM.

From there, digging that information out (bus states and the like) and
making sense of the data is relatively easy, done that kind of thing
before when writing simulators.

Main thing here is if I *really* need it.

If you acquire a PM101, the state machine trigger might be useful.
The timing option might be useful. But the speed of the system isn't up to

current

requirements.

I have regular logic analyzers, HP 16702B, with sufficient pods. The
thing that the 7D02 would do for me is go right to 6802 stuff without
having to do a whole lot.

Unless you can a quire a PM, you're still gonna have to do a lot.
Decoding the bus is a small part of getting something on the 7D02 display.

Which doesn't sound like fun.

Having enough fun reverse engineering the CPU card on a DM5010.


Harvey

Having said that, I've got a tracing disassembler that works on 6802
core images, and there's a significant amount of information I can get
from that.

Really, the idea is to reverse engineer the DM5010 code enough that I
can reprogram it in C, with an ARM processor, and make it all work.

Writing to the front panel is done...
Need to read from the front panel, then figure out if I have the
interface to the 5010 internals right (they documented it well enough,
and I'm using an FPGA), then worry about the 488 interface....

Nothing seems to be a game changer here, not yet, and I have a
significant amount of system software to get the main processor
working.... some 488 software, FPGA addressing software, front panel
write software, operating system, that kind of thing.

More a question of getting it done, where the 7D02 and a PM103 would
be a convenience in finding out some details of the original hardware.
I do *not* particularly want to make a microprocessor analyzer
subsystem right now....

A decent schematic and firmware would make it an easy enough project
to simply design a PC board and throw it at the project. I already
know how to design PC boards....

Most of this simply depends on what I can find. having a 7D02 and a
good personality module for a microprocessor would be good....

the PM101 for general logic use, well, 16702B will do most of that...

Nice to have found one at a hamfest, though....

On Mon, 11 Feb 2019 01:03:50 -0800, you wrote:

Hi Mike,

Ah Ha! So you were one of the team. I see Mike Reiney and his sidekick, Tom Hill (or is Mike Tom's sidekick?) on a regular basis at ham swap meets. There is one this Saturday at Rickreall OR just south of Salem. They will both be there.

Are you still in the Beaverton area? I stay there Thursday and Friday before Rickreall at John Addis' home. Friday I help out in the Museum. I have been involved with the museum since before it opened. Stan Griffiths showed me their first location when it was nothing more than a bare room with some tables.

Mike described the excess power issue to me once in excruciating detail. I could tell he was still fed up with the project from the tone in his voice 30 years after working on it.

Logic Analyzers have so many fundamental things preventing them from ever succeeding that it is a miracle it actually made it into a finished product.

You mean the 7D02, I'd think. I have some extremely useful HP16702B
logic analyzers here...

* The window of opportunity is narrow for any target microprocessor.

and you need advance information, too.

* The odds of a target microprocessor succeeding in the marketplace is low.

Was then, since everybody tried to roll their own (superior)
processor.

* There is no way to predict which microprocessor will succeed

Big companies aren't a bad idea, but then, look at the 6502.

* The development cost of the LA is extremely high.

Can be for the basics, from then on, it's personality modules.

* The development schedule has to be extremely short.

Yep.

* There are no development tools for developing logic analyzers.

And that's why you write one.

* Each new micro has its own hardware and timing requirements that are fluid until it ships forcing changes to the PM to be made up until the last minute.

Don't remember how much programmable hardware there was at the time,
some of that could be used. 70's, no, not really. 80's? we're
getting there.

Now? easy.

Harvey

And on and on.

Since I'm such a 7000 fan the 7D02 was a logical choice for me to use when troubleshooting the microprocessors I did design work with in the late 1970s and early 1980s. What I liked about the 7D02 was its simplicity. It was every easy to setup and get going. What I didn't like was the update speed of the CRT which was really slow. I have always suspected that had something to do with keeping the power down on the MPU that was formatting the screen data.

Dennis

-----Original Message-----
From: TekScopes@groups.io [mailto:TekScopes@groups.io] On Behalf Of
ham789@netzero.net
Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2019 8:23 PM
To: TekScopes@groups.io
Subject: Re: [TekScopes] 7D02 personality modules

On Sun, Feb 10, 2019 at 06:17 PM, Dennis Tillman W7PF wrote:

I spoke to the assignees in hopes they might have personality modules
in their attic somewhere. No luck. One of the Program Managers did
give me a bunch of prototype boards and prototype PMs but these were
not compatible with the final system. I will see him this Saturday at
the Rickreall, OR Ham Swap Meet. Apparently there were a few Program
Managers on this project over time. I suspect that was due to it being an

extremely stressful job.

Most of the stress was due to management roadblocks.
When I arrived early on, it was a 2-wide plugin.
I remember sitting in the company president's office describing how the
technology to do the project in the current format as a scope plugin was not
available and proposed a full rack wide alternative with a big screen, a
foldout keyboard... and a future.

After about two minutes of consideration, I was schooled in the fact that we
were a scope company and If I wouldn't do it, he'd find someone who would.
I snapped to attention and said, "yes sir!"
The three-wide plugin and sloping front panel were the only concessions I
got.

We were also required to code it in assembly language. We couldn't have an
Intel development system, because that would make our TEK development systems
look bad.
The big guy was not amused when I stole an Intel system from another
department.
He was also not amused when we paid $250 each for a large quantity of EPROMS
that came to market just in time to build the prototypes. We had put a lot
of effort into segmenting the system and using jump tables so we could do
some patching of the code in a non-reprogrammable PROM system. The EPROMS
gave us some flexibility at the end.

The power and space constraints meant that it took longer than they wanted
and was obsolete by the time it hit market. There was no room for expansion
for more complex processors. The 68000 was the first in a long line of
difficult processors.

The team did a really great job under the constraints.

Been a long time since I thought about that project. Good times...

The 7K line was conceived before digital logic was wide spread. As a
result the 7K SMPS was not designed to supply the high power needs of
ECL and TTL when it becomes important a few years later. The lack of
sufficient digital logic power impacts the 7D01 which makes extensive
use of power hungry ECL to achieve 100MHz 16 bit speeds. The 7D02 used
a lot of TTL and far exceeded the maximum power allowed by the 7K
spec. The 7D02 design team tried everything they could think of to
solve that problem. In the end they were unsuccessful. Instead they
had no choice but to cut out some of the most power hungry features.

More power would have helped, but the limitations of the keyboard and display
were also deal breakers.

Dennis Tillman W7PF

-----Original Message-----
From: Harvey White
Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2019 5:05 PM

On Sun, 10 Feb 2019 10:36:56 -0800, you wrote:

Hi Harvey,
Welcome to the 7D02 club. I think we are the only members. I have
used the
7D02 extensively since I enjoy working on the older microprocessors
I used to design into systems in the 1970s.

I haven't looked too much, not thinking I'd ever see one (7D02) at all.
Let's just say that I got this for about the price of the average
high end coffee...

I have been searching for Personality Modules for many years. It is
just about a lost cause since, like probes and small accessories,
they get separated from the instrument they belong to and go their
separate

ways.

The instrument, because of its size and/or initial high cost, is
saved in case it may be needed in the future. The probes /
personality modules / accessories end up in the drawer of one of
the engineers that used the instrument and when he moves on
somebody tosses the contents he leaves behind.

That happens a lot. From what I can see, the average personality
module

is a

60 or so pin connector, a ROM of some sort, some hardware logic, and
an extension wire cable to a 40 pin plug, with a 40 pin ZIF socket.

The main thing would be the hardware design, and absolutely
critically,

the

firmware.

As long as the boards can be done in less than 100 * 100 cm, well, I
can design PC boards....

I'll start looking for information.

Especially, I need the 103 pod, because I'm looking to replicate the
6802 pod to debug the TM5010 processor board, not that I absolutely
have

to,

but it would be lots nicer to have that capability.

It would save me from having to design the whole stupid thing myself...

I'd rather not.

I have a few of the personality modules and a few extras. It is
impossible to put a price on something that is so unusual and scarce.
To most people it is not worth anything at all. My goal is to
complete the collection of PMs for historical purposes. It all goes
to the museum

when I'm gone.

My only hope at this point is that I will find someone who is
willing to trade an extra PM they have for an extra one of mine.
These are the ones I am still looking for:
PM-101 OPT 01, GENERAL PURPOSE P.M. WITH 8080 MNEMONICS
PM-101 OPT 02, GENERAL PURPOSE P.M. WITH 6502 MNEMONICS
PM-102 6800
PM-104 8085
PM-108 Z8002
PM-110 Z8001
PM-111 6809
PM-112 MULTIBUS

I have exactly what I mentioned, a 7D02. nothing else, sadly. The
person

I

spoke to said that he had a "whole bunch of cables" but someone
bought

them

at dayton....

I suspect that he had absolutely no idea what this plugin was, nor
what

would

go with it.

Harvey

Dennis Tillman W7PF

-----Original Message-----
From: Harvey White
Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2019 8:07 AM

At a recent hamfest, a 7D02 followed me home at such a low price
that it almost didn't matter if it worked (almost... that is).

Plugging it in, it passed all the self tests with the exception
of any

having

to do with the personality module, which made perfect sense
because there weren't any.

The next thing is to find a personality module, PM100 series so
they say

(not

sure what the PM200 etc fits).

Considering that I'm messing around with 6802's, the requisite
module

ought

to be a PM103. Any leads on any?

If needed (and I think I may know where the PM firmware is, I
could

possibly

make one.

Rather buy it, though, if reasonable.

Harvey

--
Dennis Tillman W7PF
TekScopes Moderator

On Mon, Feb 11, 2019 at 08:03 AM, Dennis Tillman W7PF wrote:

I never used it but I do remember the Intel MDS and ISIS.

I *hated* the MDS and ISIS. I was used to DEC PDP-11's and was asked to do an 8049 project on a customer's MDS machine. The 8049 had a very simple architecture and was a really simple microprocessor. Decided to adapt my homebrew cross-assembler, build a small debugging system with serial interface to the PDF and do without ICE. Never looked back.
Nothing to do with (Tek) Logic Analyzers, so really OT, sorry about that. But I *do* have 2 7D01's, one DL2, 1 DF1, 1 DF2, 4 308's, 2 1240's, 1 1241, 1 TLA704, 1 TLA715, probes, pods, clips etc. included with all to make up for it.
Nothing to brag about because my place is *packed*.

Raymond

It may indicate the outside foil, which is marked by a black line on the Orange Drops, if they are marked. The 715P is designed for pule applications, not coupling so it isn't marked on that series. In some applications it was used as somewhat of a shield, or part of a tuned filter when a wire was wrapped around it to create a crude RF filter.

Here is an example of modern caps with the outside foil marked:

<https://www.tubesandmore.com/products/capacitor-sozo-500v-nexgen-yellow-mustard-vintage>;

I no longer have any data on those oil filled paper 'Black Beauties' but most paper caps marked the outside foil.


Michael A. Terrell