Date   
Re: My 2465B has arrived + A5 Board leaky caps cleanup

tekscopegroup@...
 

Hi Tom, thanks very much for your input. Bellow just a quick follow up.

On Wed, Oct 31, 2018 at 04:08 PM, Tom Gardner wrote:
Highly unlikely the 10MHz is incorrect - but you can always measure it on your
other scope :)
Is there a test point designated on A5 to check on the 10MHz oscillator?
Just for fun and while I am at A5, might as well check that, although after reading Chuck's detailed explanation on how the scope actually performs the frequency measurements, the 10MHz is not used in the process, and I suspect that it will be within spec.

What's more likely is that the A5 voltages and/or calibration values are
invalid. Before tweaking anything, make sure the reference and DAC output
voltages are as specified in the service manual.
Yes, at the time of making those measurements both the positive and negative voltage reference values where/are still off. Did not want to touch the adjustment until the two 10.0K 0.1% resistors that where damaged by the leaking caps are replaced with the correct parts. They should arrive sometime this week, and once they are in, I will tweak R2010 to set the reference voltages to +1.36v and -1.25v.

Thanks again.

Alex

Re: My 2465B has arrived + A5 Board leaky caps cleanup

tekscopegroup@...
 

Chuck as usual your explanations are outstanding. After reading them, just a few short extra questions/comments, bellow.

On Wed, Oct 31, 2018 at 09:49 PM, Chuck Harris wrote:
The design of the front panel is such that all of
the displays states are in registers that get strobed
whenever anything is changed on the front panel. That
shows up as a brief flash of all lights.

The 2465B uses 74F logic for those registers, the older
2465 used 74LS logic, and fairly dim LED's. The blink
is scarcely noticeable with the older 2465. The 2465B
uses much brighter LED's, and the blink is quite apparent.
I assumed that it was normal, but I was surprised to see the effect as it was never evident on any of the videos I'd seen before.

With 350MHz bandwidth comes a lot of ambient noise. Cut
the bandwidth, and you will cut the noise. That is why
the scope has the 20MHz bandwidth limit switch on the
front panel.
So it is normal to see some fuzziness on the traces at full bandwidth? I really have to go through this again, as I seem to remember the amount of fuzziness varied somewhat depending on the time/div setting, not sure that would be normal. I am still awaiting for the Mouser parts for the A5 board to arrive, and will confirm that once I have to put the scope back on the bench to work on replacing those parts.

The 2465B is not a frequency counter, and the A5 board's
10MHz reference has nothing to do with sweep or frequency
accuracy.

The way the 2465 family creates its sweep is by using a
miller integrator, and precision integration capacitors.
...snip...

Very nice explanation of the principle used to make the measurements, now I have much better understanding of the process.

It is standard practice of most sellers to remove all
calibration stickers, and stickers showing previous
ownership before the sale. Although I don't sell a lot
of scopes, when I do, I blow out the dust from the inside,
clean the outside, and the CRT, make any repairs, and
calibrate the scope, complete with zeroing the counters.
If I may ask, how do those hour and power cycle counters get zeroed out? I don't think I have seen the reset procedure explained in the service manual.

According to Manuel Maseda, Option 46 is the military
version of the scope (OS-288/G) that includes option 10
(IEEE-488), and 2 probes.
Is there a more specific service manual for this variant I should look for?
If you happen to know, are there any differences in the military version from the regular version?
Perhaps a sturdier build? or what where the military requirements?

Thanks again Chuck.

Alex

Re: "I wonder how many members here have a 564" Dave V.

Jack
 

Jhave one...and I'd like it to work...it has ravelled .with me for 30 years...'one day'.....I've let several go past on eBay which went for a song...resisting temptation
but perhaps that was not a good decision. I have only two modules .Perhaps someone who knows them might be encouraging..My Regards
--
Jack

Re: how high would you stack them?

Brad Thompson
 

On 11/4/2018 7:15 AM, John Ferguson via Groups.Io wrote:
<snip>

FWIW, I have a rolling Harbor Freight cart (#5770) which I built a top for. Someone at Harbor Freight must have been really sharp because if you lay four 2x4 lengths around the inside of the perimeter with the 4 (well 3 1/2) side up, they will protrude about an 1/8" above the sides making it possible to screw a sheet of plywood to top to make a table. I have another one for my 6040 CNC router - same scheme.
Hello--

Be aware that HF products have variable quality. Always read the reviews
before purchasing-- for example, their "Mobile Base/300 Lbs.
Capacity" (model 95288) presents some time-consuming assembly challenges.

73--

Brad AA1IP

Re: vintageTEK museum releases Replaceable Parts Registry (RPR)

 

Thank you Dave and the others that have made this possible.

Regards

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Brown" <davebr@...>
To: <TekScopes@groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2018 12:22 AM
Subject: Re: [TekScopes] vintageTEK museum releases Replaceable Parts Registry (RPR)


I have scanned and released to Tekwiki the 670 and 672 RPR (672 is a continuation of 670). This RPR category indicates what instruments PCBs were used in and is quite large. There are 1740 scanned pages and this represents about 10 hours of scanning. I chose to scan selected portions of the RPR to pay back the collector community who graciously donated to buy the museum the microfiche scanner. I have now scanned over 3700 pages of RPR pages and consider our debt paid in full. We were also requested to scan the 366- Knob category and the 067- Test Fixtures categories. I will do so as I have time as I now need to focus on customer requested service manuals and regular museum business. The 670 RPR has not yet been posted on Tekwiki but expect it will be shortly.

Re: vintageTEK museum releases Replaceable Parts Registry (RPR)

Dave Brown
 

I have scanned and released to Tekwiki the 670 and 672 RPR (672 is a continuation of 670). This RPR category indicates what instruments PCBs were used in and is quite large. There are 1740 scanned pages and this represents about 10 hours of scanning. I chose to scan selected portions of the RPR to pay back the collector community who graciously donated to buy the museum the microfiche scanner. I have now scanned over 3700 pages of RPR pages and consider our debt paid in full. We were also requested to scan the 366- Knob category and the 067- Test Fixtures categories. I will do so as I have time as I now need to focus on customer requested service manuals and regular museum business. The 670 RPR has not yet been posted on Tekwiki but expect it will be shortly.

Re: Tek 585A - Scope repair UPDATE

Chuck Harris
 

Soldering to the ceramic strips in these scopes is an
art form. It is easy to wreck them. I would suggest
avoiding that and exhausting other methods of checking
soldered in parts.

If you have to do soldering on these strips, you need
a high wattage, temperature controlled iron, Tektronix
used 70W screwdriver tipped irons. Do not put the
iron into the cut in the ceramic. To do so invites
taking a big chip out of the terminal. Heat the wire
with the iron on the side of the strip. Use only 2-3%
silver, tin/lead solder. There should be a small reel
attached to the chassis somewhere... also usually in
the plugins somewhere.

-Chuck Harris

YudaMan3 via Groups.Io wrote:

Albert and Chuck and anyone else who wants to opine:

1. should I attempt to adjust the -150 with the adjustment pot and see if I can get the 10V change from -160 to -150 before flipping the scope upside down and taking component voltage readings?
2. should I replace C197 just because it's doing a lot of work, has been stressed and is cheap and easy to replace?
3. don't laugh at this question but I've never tested a tube other than in a tube tester ... a LONG time ago. How do I test open filament in V724?

THANK YOU again for your time, answers and suggestions.



Re: Tek 585A - Scope repair UPDATE

Chuck Harris
 

Ok, I see your point, better to tackle the real show
stopper, than to worry about a 7% difference... especially
since the 7% difference in -150V should only reflect into a
7% difference elsewhere.

The OP mentions that V724's filament is OK, that is what I
would have expected. Filaments of lower voltage tubes rarely
burn out in such circuits. However, the same effect would
occur if the tube was largely to gas, or the socket had corrosion
making for an open plate. Is its getter bright
and shiny?

I would check V724 with a tube checker, barring that, substitute
another 6AU6.

I think the real culprit is more likely R710 is open, or much
higher in value than 237K, or similarly, R728 is open, or much
higher than 560K... and we cannot discount the possibility that
R723 has dropped significantly in value... high megohm CC
resistors do that.

-Chuck Harris


Albert Otten wrote:

True, but the -150V is just a little bit off compared to +350V and 500V.
The deviation in +100V and +225V is complete due (calculated) to the -150V deviation.
The excessive 350V must be due to a fault in the regulator. For instance an open filament in V724.
The excessive 500V corresponds more or less to the calculated value given +433 V at the 350V line when the crude +600V leaves enough room for that.

With 433 V at R197 I can image that C197 breaks down and toasts R197. C197 is specified for 500 V when new...

Albert

Re: Tektronix 531 diode replacement

Jim Olson <v_12eng@...>
 

Hi Dave M,
Is the silver bearing solder used on the 4xx series scopes on the ceramic strips in the high voltage section also? If so that would explain why I had so much trouble getting the wires to release.
Sorry for the change of topic but it is somewhat relevant.

Jim O

On November 5, 2018 at 6:45 PM David M <@DaveM mailto:@DaveM > wrote:


Sorry, I somehow didn't comprehend that the old seleniums had been replaced by newer rectifiers, but, the 1N4007s will still work in the scope with no problem. If the resistors on the mod board are sufficient, the filament transformer won't be necessary. I've used that trick a few times over the years, and it works beautifully when you need to reduce the line voltage safely and efficiently.
If your scope still has the old 5642 HV rectifier tubes installed, they can be replaced with silicon rectifiers. I forget the part number. Something like 18Kv/5ma fast recovery.
On the issue of damaging the ceramic terminal strips...I hope you know that silver-bearing solder is required on those strips. If the roll of that solder has been used or lost from your scope, you need to find a small supply of it. I used to have a 1/2 lb roll of it in my toolbox, but It seems to have gotten away over the years. Otherwise, I'd be glad to send you some.

Again, good luck with the project!! Those old scopes were works of art in their era.

Dave M

On Mon, Nov 5, 2018 at 07:40 PM, David M wrote:

>

> > Hi Brenda,
Get yourself a handful of 1N4007 rectifiers and have a ball replacing the old
seleniums. A word of caution, though... the rectified DC will be a good bit
higher than it would be with good seleniums. If it appears to be unreasonably
high after the new diodes have been installed, (along with new electrolytics)
get a 6.3 VAC/6A filament transformer, and install it to buck the line
voltage on the primary side of the scope's power transformer. That will
effectively reduce the AC input to the scope.

Good luck with the restoration!!
Dave M

>

Re: Tektronix 531 diode replacement

Daniel Koller
 

ps.  Save those Selenium rectifiers!!  Saw this in a very old book:   Take out the center screw or rivet.  Place the Se plates on a hot plate, and heat it up till the solder just melts.  Wipe it off with a rag.  Now you have a thin metal coating on a light sensitive surface with which you can play.   Of course those old books neglected to discuss the toxicity of Selenium, and you definitely don't want to burn it, but hey, I am still alive and healthy.   I didn't eat the stuff.  It's also an essential element and prevents dandruff!

On Monday, November 5, 2018, 10:52:59 PM EST, Daniel Koller via Groups.Io <kaboomdk=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Hi Brenda,
    I am the owner of a 545 scope (though I've had a 531 in the past) and would have chimed in sooner but have been busy.   I see you've gotten some good advice though.   One thing I would add is that you should be a little more conservative in your replacement of parts.  Don't replace anything unless it's known bad.  The Tek circuits are very tolerant of out-of-tolerance parts, so the scope should at least work to some extent with leaaky caps, off-value resistors, etc, allowing you to trouble-shoot subsections without having to take a shot-gun approach to component replacment.   
  In particular, I would not replace the electrolytic filter caps unless known bad, or the power supply won't regulate and the ripple is too high.   They will get warm, and there is a lot of leakage in those things, but as they re-form with use, they may improve a bit.  If the main fuse didn't go, they are probably acceptable for now.
  The bumblebees are almost certainly all bad. They are either dried up and have become open circuits with no capacitance, or they leak, so are effectively resistors.  But they do not all need to be replaced right away.   As has been mentioned, the BB caps in the HV power supply probably do need to be replaced as they will keep the HV circuit from oscillating.  But many of them in the other circuits are bypass capacitors or frequency compensation caps across a resistor in the cathode circuit of a tube.  In that use, they decrease the AC gaien of the circuit but do nothing at DC, so for example, in the vertical circuit, the additional leakage (which is small compared to the ~few hundred ohms in parallel with it) might shift the trace position a bit but it should still be centerable on the CRT.     If the cap is a coupling cap between, e.g. an output stage and the grid input of the next stage, then a leakage current will be large compared to the grid bias current of the subsequent stage, so those should be replaced.      Finally, there is ONE that definitely needs to be replaced ASAP.   If I recall correctly, without the benefit of looking at the schematic, there is a BB cap coupling the output of the vertical sweep to a banana plug on the front panel, where it can potentially be touched.   150V +  "exposed banana plug" = "shit that hurts!", and needs to be made safe.  
   I would resist using nail polish as corona dope.  It might work.  Then again, it might not, and if it arcs, you will have a harder time cleaning the carbon tracks off the ceramic insulators.   Again, I wouldn't disturb the HV section unless there is a problem.  I recall once that it worked fine, despite lots of dust, *until* I cleaned it.  Then I basically had to make it absolutely spotless before it worked again.  One thing to do is turn out the light and look for arcs and sparks in the dark (just being crazy careful not to touch anything).     While the lights are out, you can look for gassy tubes glowing purple. 
   I have written a lot of this stuff up and posted it here in the past.  If you search for my name, you might find it.  I wrote up some basic info on fixing these old tube scopes based on personal experience working on mine.   I also have an RM503 by the way.  Good luck!
  Dan
    On Monday, November 5, 2018, 9:46:07 PM EST, David M <@DaveM> wrote:

Sorry, I somehow didn't comprehend that the old seleniums had been replaced by newer rectifiers, but, the 1N4007s will still work in the scope with no problem.  If the resistors on the mod board are sufficient, the filament transformer won't be necessary.  I've used that trick a few times over the years, and it works beautifully when you need to reduce the line voltage safely and efficiently.
If your scope still has the old 5642 HV rectifier tubes installed, they can be replaced with silicon rectifiers. I forget the part number.  Something like 18Kv/5ma fast recovery.
On the issue of damaging the ceramic terminal strips...I hope you know that silver-bearing solder is required on those strips.  If the roll of that solder has been used or lost from your scope, you need to find a small supply of it.  I used to have a 1/2 lb roll of it in my toolbox, but It seems to have gotten away over the years.  Otherwise, I'd be glad to send you some.

Again, good luck with the project!!  Those old scopes were works of art in their era.

Dave M

On Mon, Nov  5, 2018 at 07:40 PM, David M wrote:


Hi Brenda,
Get yourself a handful of 1N4007 rectifiers and have a ball replacing the old
seleniums.  A word of caution, though... the rectified DC will be a good bit
higher than it would be with good seleniums.  If it appears to be unreasonably
high after the new diodes have been installed, (along with new electrolytics)
get a 6.3 VAC/6A  filament transformer, and install it to buck the line
voltage on the primary side of the scope's power transformer.  That will
effectively reduce the AC input to the scope.

Good luck with the restoration!!
Dave M

Re: Tektronix 531 diode replacement

Daniel Koller
 

Hi Brenda,
    I am the owner of a 545 scope (though I've had a 531 in the past) and would have chimed in sooner but have been busy.   I see you've gotten some good advice though.   One thing I would add is that you should be a little more conservative in your replacement of parts.  Don't replace anything unless it's known bad.  The Tek circuits are very tolerant of out-of-tolerance parts, so the scope should at least work to some extent with leaaky caps, off-value resistors, etc, allowing you to trouble-shoot subsections without having to take a shot-gun approach to component replacment.   
  In particular, I would not replace the electrolytic filter caps unless known bad, or the power supply won't regulate and the ripple is too high.   They will get warm, and there is a lot of leakage in those things, but as they re-form with use, they may improve a bit.  If the main fuse didn't go, they are probably acceptable for now.
  The bumblebees are almost certainly all bad. They are either dried up and have become open circuits with no capacitance, or they leak, so are effectively resistors.  But they do not all need to be replaced right away.   As has been mentioned, the BB caps in the HV power supply probably do need to be replaced as they will keep the HV circuit from oscillating.  But many of them in the other circuits are bypass capacitors or frequency compensation caps across a resistor in the cathode circuit of a tube.  In that use, they decrease the AC gaien of the circuit but do nothing at DC, so for example, in the vertical circuit, the additional leakage (which is small compared to the ~few hundred ohms in parallel with it) might shift the trace position a bit but it should still be centerable on the CRT.     If the cap is a coupling cap between, e.g. an output stage and the grid input of the next stage, then a leakage current will be large compared to the grid bias current of the subsequent stage, so those should be replaced.      Finally, there is ONE that definitely needs to be replaced ASAP.   If I recall correctly, without the benefit of looking at the schematic, there is a BB cap coupling the output of the vertical sweep to a banana plug on the front panel, where it can potentially be touched.   150V +  "exposed banana plug" = "shit that hurts!", and needs to be made safe.  
   I would resist using nail polish as corona dope.  It might work.  Then again, it might not, and if it arcs, you will have a harder time cleaning the carbon tracks off the ceramic insulators.   Again, I wouldn't disturb the HV section unless there is a problem.  I recall once that it worked fine, despite lots of dust, *until* I cleaned it.  Then I basically had to make it absolutely spotless before it worked again.  One thing to do is turn out the light and look for arcs and sparks in the dark (just being crazy careful not to touch anything).     While the lights are out, you can look for gassy tubes glowing purple. 
   I have written a lot of this stuff up and posted it here in the past.  If you search for my name, you might find it.  I wrote up some basic info on fixing these old tube scopes based on personal experience working on mine.   I also have an RM503 by the way.  Good luck!
  Dan

On Monday, November 5, 2018, 9:46:07 PM EST, David M <@DaveM> wrote:

Sorry, I somehow didn't comprehend that the old seleniums had been replaced by newer rectifiers, but, the 1N4007s will still work in the scope with no problem.  If the resistors on the mod board are sufficient, the filament transformer won't be necessary.  I've used that trick a few times over the years, and it works beautifully when you need to reduce the line voltage safely and efficiently.
If your scope still has the old 5642 HV rectifier tubes installed, they can be replaced with silicon rectifiers. I forget the part number.  Something like 18Kv/5ma fast recovery.
On the issue of damaging the ceramic terminal strips...I hope you know that silver-bearing solder is required on those strips.  If the roll of that solder has been used or lost from your scope, you need to find a small supply of it.  I used to have a 1/2 lb roll of it in my toolbox, but It seems to have gotten away over the years.  Otherwise, I'd be glad to send you some.

Again, good luck with the project!!  Those old scopes were works of art in their era.

Dave M

On Mon, Nov  5, 2018 at 07:40 PM, David M wrote:


Hi Brenda,
Get yourself a handful of 1N4007 rectifiers and have a ball replacing the old
seleniums.  A word of caution, though... the rectified DC will be a good bit
higher than it would be with good seleniums.  If it appears to be unreasonably
high after the new diodes have been installed, (along with new electrolytics)
get a 6.3 VAC/6A  filament transformer, and install it to buck the line
voltage on the primary side of the scope's power transformer.  That will
effectively reduce the AC input to the scope.

Good luck with the restoration!!
Dave M

Re: 556 A Sweep Won't Trigger

thespin@...
 

It's never worked, to my knowledge. It was this way when I obtained the unit.

I've probed around a little bit. First thing I've noticed is that when the scope is on "auto stability," certain positions of the trigger knob cause the scope to stop sweeping at all.

Second, the signal at the anode of D555 and the anode of the equivalent diode in the B section of scope are identical. The signal again, off the secondary of T555 is strong. Finally, the signal at the anode of D561 is really anemic in comparison to the equivalent diode in the B section.

Any ideas?

Re: Tektronix 531 diode replacement

 

Sorry, I somehow didn't comprehend that the old seleniums had been replaced by newer rectifiers, but, the 1N4007s will still work in the scope with no problem. If the resistors on the mod board are sufficient, the filament transformer won't be necessary. I've used that trick a few times over the years, and it works beautifully when you need to reduce the line voltage safely and efficiently.
If your scope still has the old 5642 HV rectifier tubes installed, they can be replaced with silicon rectifiers. I forget the part number. Something like 18Kv/5ma fast recovery.
On the issue of damaging the ceramic terminal strips...I hope you know that silver-bearing solder is required on those strips. If the roll of that solder has been used or lost from your scope, you need to find a small supply of it. I used to have a 1/2 lb roll of it in my toolbox, but It seems to have gotten away over the years. Otherwise, I'd be glad to send you some.

Again, good luck with the project!! Those old scopes were works of art in their era.

Dave M

On Mon, Nov 5, 2018 at 07:40 PM, David M wrote:


Hi Brenda,
Get yourself a handful of 1N4007 rectifiers and have a ball replacing the old
seleniums. A word of caution, though... the rectified DC will be a good bit
higher than it would be with good seleniums. If it appears to be unreasonably
high after the new diodes have been installed, (along with new electrolytics)
get a 6.3 VAC/6A filament transformer, and install it to buck the line
voltage on the primary side of the scope's power transformer. That will
effectively reduce the AC input to the scope.

Good luck with the restoration!!
Dave M

"I wonder how many members here have a 564" Dave V.

John Griessen
 

I have one that sort of works, but it's in the attic...

Re: Tektronix 531 diode replacement

John Griessen
 

On 11/5/18 3:06 PM, Dave Voorhis wrote:
Now I wonder how many members here have a 564.
+1

Re: Tek 585A - Scope repair UPDATE

 

Repeating myself and what Chuck Harris said, adjust the -150 to as accurate as you can. That voltage affects all the others. It is the main reference for the scope.

Then take measurements of the other voltages. If you have another scope, you can measure the ripple on each supply if you have a probe that can safely handle the different voltages.

Regards,

----- Original Message -----
From: "YudaMan3 via Groups.Io" <jamesvyu=yahoo.com@groups.io>
To: <TekScopes@groups.io>
Sent: Monday, November 05, 2018 8:50 PM
Subject: Re: [TekScopes] Tek 585A - Scope repair UPDATE


Jack and Albert (and others): boy, I've learned a lot in a few hours. Filament in V724 is good ... resistance same as adjacent 6AU6 (about 3 ohms) and filament glows when powered on.

Jack C197 is .005 uf, 500V.
Albert: very small voltage drop across new R197 resistor

Incidentally, have discovered all kinds of calibration stickers .. all 1981

Re: Tek 585A - Scope repair UPDATE

YudaMan3 <jamesvyu@...>
 

Jack and Albert (and others): boy, I've learned a lot in a few hours. Filament in V724 is good ... resistance same as adjacent 6AU6 (about 3 ohms) and filament glows when powered on.

Jack C197 is .005 uf, 500V.
Albert: very small voltage drop across new R197 resistor

Incidentally, have discovered all kinds of calibration stickers .. all 1981

Re: Tektronix 531 diode replacement

 

Hi Brenda,
Get yourself a handful of 1N4007 rectifiers and have a ball replacing the old seleniums. A word of caution, though... the rectified DC will be a good bit higher than it would be with good seleniums. If it appears to be unreasonably high after the new diodes have been installed, (along with new electrolytics) get a 6.3 VAC/6A filament transformer, and install it to buck the line voltage on the primary side of the scope's power transformer. That will effectively reduce the AC input to the scope.

Good luck with the restoration!!
Dave M

On Mon, Nov 5, 2018 at 11:31 AM, <brendda75@...> wrote:


Hello everyone, my name is Brenda and I am new to this forum. A little about
me, I have a general knowledge of electronics but certainly don't know
everything. I had a Tektronix 535A for almost 20 years before life got in the
way. I am "collecting" old tube type scopes to use. I have a RM565, 561 and a
503 that's in working order for the most part. And a few plugins as well. I
have just picked up a Tektronix 531 and it has plenty of issues, the one main
issue is that most of the electrolytics caps are bad. The scope was not on for
a minute and saw some smoke coming from upper section by the high voltage and
shut it down. After that, I felt the electrolytics and most of them were much
warmer than I am comfortable with. I downloaded a manual for the 531, but my
531 has the upgraded board to replace the selenium rectifier. From what I've
read in the forum, Stan stated that the diodes were not the best and would
like to replace them but I can't find what diodes would be best to use. I
would like to replace the diodes and the electrolytics before moving on with
bringing this oldie back to life. Any help would be appreciated. The serial
number on this scope is 8121 and came with a Type M plugin unit.

Re: They’re Both Dead Jim

Jack
 

I should add...sometimes the dead ones are the easiest to fix.
--
Jack

Re: They’re Both Dead Jim

Jack
 

Hi surplus sales Nebraska has one (PUB) TEK-455 Tektronix 455/A2/B2 Oscilloscope Manual $45.00...I couldn't find another without having to
download unwanted software.

--
Jack