Date   

Re: Logic Analyzer Recommendations?

Richard R. Pope
 

Sergey,
What about the lack of Cables, Keyboard, and Mouse? My understanding is that the Keyboard and Mouse are special.
GOD Bless and Thanks,
rich!

On 2/12/2018 10:34 PM, Sergey Kubushyn wrote:
On Mon, 12 Feb 2018, jafinch78 . wrote:

Does this contain more modules and is a better price for what you are
looking for? https://www.ebay.com/itm/292413119401?
Yep, I would say this one is much better. It is 16702B, it has 16555A module
that has 8 times 16712A memory and it also has 16712A and 16550A modules if
you need those. I would recommend getting 16556D blade with even more memory
that comes out handy at times -- those can be found really cheap.

LCD is not all that important but you can replace it for the sake of
completeness if you want. It is regular 12.1" 800x600 LCD, nothing special.

---
******************************************************************
* KSI@home KOI8 Net < > The impossible we do immediately. *
* Las Vegas NV, USA < > Miracles require 24-hour notice. *
******************************************************************



Re: Logic Analyzer Recommendations?

Sergey Kubushyn
 

On Mon, 12 Feb 2018, jafinch78 . wrote:

Does this contain more modules and is a better price for what you are
looking for? https://www.ebay.com/itm/292413119401?
Yep, I would say this one is much better. It is 16702B, it has 16555A module
that has 8 times 16712A memory and it also has 16712A and 16550A modules if
you need those. I would recommend getting 16556D blade with even more memory
that comes out handy at times -- those can be found really cheap.

LCD is not all that important but you can replace it for the sake of
completeness if you want. It is regular 12.1" 800x600 LCD, nothing special.

---
******************************************************************
* KSI@home KOI8 Net < > The impossible we do immediately. *
* Las Vegas NV, USA < > Miracles require 24-hour notice. *
******************************************************************


Re: Logic Analyzer Recommendations?

Richard R. Pope
 

JA,
Nope. There are no cables, keyboard, or mouse. That alone makes this one a non-starter. The cables can cost as much or more than the Analyzer. I do appreciate the information.
GOD Bless and Thanks,
rich!

On 2/12/2018 10:10 PM, jafinch78 . wrote:
Does this contain more modules and is a better price for what you are looking for? https://www.ebay.com/itm/292413119401?



Re: Logic Analyzer Recommendations?

jafinch78 .
 

Does this contain more modules and is a better price for what you are looking for? https://www.ebay.com/itm/292413119401?


Re: Logic Analyzer Recommendations?

Richard R. Pope
 

Kevin,
The amount that I am budgeting is between $250 and $400 including cables, CD, Manual; If Possible;, and shipping.
I will be working with levels of +-5VDC most of the time and sometimes +-15VDC.
16 Channels is useable but better and more useful is at least 48 channels. This covers the Address lines, Data lines, Status lines, and the Control lines of 8 and 16 bit S100 computers. I could have used one last week.
The 10baseT on the 16702A will work fine for me. I really don't need to setup a HP-IB network.
I know and I have been doing a lot of research on these. I would like a Saleae but there is that 16 Channel barrier. What do you think of this machine? https://www.ebay.com/itm/253358003032
GOD Bless and Thanks,
rich!

On 2/12/2018 8:42 PM, Kevin Oconnor wrote:
Hi Richard,
First, how much do you want to spend?
What logic levels do you want to work with?
How many channels do you need?
What protocols do you want to use?
You can buy a new logic analyzer for many $K. Or you can buy a used HP or Tek dedicated box that's 10, 20 or 30 years old that supports 1980's protocols. Or you can buy a new USB based unit like a $600 Saleae 16 channel Pro that decodes modern protocols. Or you can buy a $50 Saleae logic 16 channel nockoff that suits many users and supports the same modern protocols.



Re: Logic Analyzer Recommendations?

jafinch78 .
 

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 06:42 pm, Kevin Oconnor wrote:


Or you can buy a $50 Saleae logic 16 channel nockoff that suits many users and
supports the same modern protocols.
I was wondering if anyone was going to comment regarding using a Pico Scope, Red Pitaya or Analog/Digital Discovery? From my readings the later looks to be the most versitile of those type systems. Anyone with experience using?


Re: Logic Analyzer Recommendations?

Kevin Oconnor
 

Hi Richard,
First, how much do you want to spend?
What logic levels do you want to work with?
How many channels do you need?
What protocols do you want to use?
You can buy a new logic analyzer for many $K. Or you can buy a used HP or Tek dedicated box that's 10, 20 or 30 years old that supports 1980's protocols. Or you can buy a new USB based unit like a $600 Saleae 16 channel Pro that decodes modern protocols. Or you can buy a $50 Saleae logic 16 channel nockoff that suits many users and supports the same modern protocols.


Re: Logic Analyzer Recommendations?

Richard R. Pope
 

Paul,
I also appreciate this information.
GOD Bless and Thanks,
rich!

On 2/12/2018 7:51 PM, Paul Amaranth wrote:
Here it is:

https://github.com/racingmars/hp16700-i2c/blob/master/i2c-tdk.c

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 05:55:37PM +0100, Hans Boon wrote:
Where can I find the decoding software in GITHUB?

Looks a nice addition to the logic analyser.

Regards,

Hans Boon






!DSPAM:5a81c39e174321834011173!


Re: Logic Analyzer Recommendations?

Paul Amaranth
 

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 05:55:37PM +0100, Hans Boon wrote:
Where can I find the decoding software in GITHUB?

Looks a nice addition to the logic analyser.

Regards,

Hans Boon






!DSPAM:5a81c39e174321834011173!
--
Paul Amaranth, GCIH | Rochester MI, USA
Aurora Group, Inc. | Security, Systems & Software
paul@... | Unix & Windows


Re: Pinouts for Ukraine Germanium Transistor

Gary Robert Bosworth
 

I am very happy with the quality of these Ukrainian Germanium transistors.
Consistent parameters all always good to see. I am very impressed with the
curve tracer screen I am disappointed in that people claim these GT320V
transistors are an equivalent to the 2N2635. In no way can the GT320V be
used as a direct substitute for a 2N2635, and this has nothing to do with
the straight-line pinout. Thank you to everyone who gave answers to my
pinout question.

Gary

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 12:21 PM, Leo Bodnar <leo@...> wrote:

The closest to official datasheet I can find is the product announcement
in popular RADIO magazine of the time (1967.)
RADIO had probably the best [official] access to the manufacturing data,
that was otherwise inaccessible to civilian comrades.
I have no idea what dashed area on the other side of the spot-weld bend is
on that drawing.
Perhaps, it means "alternative placement" of the bend?

I'd go for ink dot in preference of the weld bend. The underside is
impossible to inspect after it has been placed on the PCB. Think about it.

Mind you, in those days there was little automation so ink dots were
placed manually - take them as "best effort" design feature.

Leo



--
Gary Robert Bosworth
grbosworth@...
Tel: 310-317-2247


Re: Questions on impedance matching

Ted Rook
 

David

PS

Compared to the precision and rigor that are found in RF work computing and video the
world of audio can sometimes seem sloppy by comparison. Our hearing is a something of an
enigma because in some ways it is sophisticated, sound source location, and frequency
discrimination for example, and in some ways it is primitive, the thresholds for just detectable
changes can be quite large under some conditions and quite small in others. For an audio
device to reproduce sound free from obvious degradation does not require sophisticated or
expensive hardware, this was achieved in the 1950s with tube amplifiers and moving coil
loudspeakers.

There is a website you may find helpful, it is what remains from the work of the late Dr Jim
Leach at Georgia Tech, there is probably a link there to his course text book

http://leachlegacy.ece.gatech.edu/audiothings.html

Best

Ted Rook

On 12 Feb 2018 at 20:05, Ted Rook wrote:

Yes I agree, with 600 ohms attached the terminal voltage is the nominal value, with open
circuit it is double.

In audio we NEVER match source and load impedances, not with small signals nor with
power amplifiers and loudspeakers. The universal system comprises low source impedances
and high load impedances, ratios of 1:10 to 1:1000 are common.

Things are happening in audio at such a slow speed that reflected energy is irrelevant.

Reflections don't cause "distortion" in audio. Distortion in audio occurs due to non-linearity in
the amplification and from abuse of amplification by the connection of load impedances
below the rated value.

DECIBELS

ratio of two voltages expressed in dB is 20 times the log base10 of the ratio

in round numbers:

double is +6dB
half is -6dB
3x is +10dB
10x is +20dB
100x is +40dB



ratio of two powers expressed in dB is 10 times the log base 10 of the ratio

in round numbers:

double is +3dB
half is -3dB
10x is +10dB
100x is +20dB

Hope this helps

Ted




On 12 Feb 2018 at 6:34, David Berlind wrote:

thank you @tedR: when you say "if it (the 600 ohms) is absent," you actually mean if there's
no load at all. Because, according to the math, other loads (above or below 600 ohms)
should not necessarily yield double the voltage. It will be somewhere in between. I'm trying to
understand the use cases for where maximum power transfer (watts) trumps maximum
voltage (amplitude) and vice versa. My assumption is that as you move off the maximum
power transfer point (where impedances match), you get signal distortion due to refection
and at that point, maximizing voltage means you're just maximizing a distorted signal which is
not helpful in radio or cable communications, but might be desirable in audio. The
relationship to dB is a new dimension for me. What's the math behind any dB calculations
and what is optimal? What dB am I shooting for?


Re: Something you didn't know: What did Tek have to do with Packing Peanuts?

jafinch78 .
 

I use a mixture of peppermint oil, corn/soybean oil, dr bronners soap and water as a repellent for rodents.

For bugs; like fleas that might come with rodents kind, I'll add pennyroyal oil (don't let this contact you).


Re: Curve tracer plug-in for 500 series.-

bobkrassa
 

There is a manual for the Systron-Donner 9550 on ebay right now. Too pricey to buy just for curiosity but may be worth it to someone who owns one. I have no connection with the seller.

73
Bob Krassa ACØJL


Re: Questions on impedance matching

Ted Rook
 

Yes I agree, with 600 ohms attached the terminal voltage is the nominal value, with open
circuit it is double.

In audio we NEVER match source and load impedances, not with small signals nor with
power amplifiers and loudspeakers. The universal system comprises low source impedances
and high load impedances, ratios of 1:10 to 1:1000 are common.

Things are happening in audio at such a slow speed that reflected energy is irrelevant.

Reflections don't cause "distortion" in audio. Distortion in audio occurs due to non-linearity in
the amplification and from abuse of amplification by the connection of load impedances
below the rated value.

DECIBELS

ratio of two voltages expressed in dB is 20 times the log base10 of the ratio

in round numbers:

double is +6dB
half is -6dB
3x is +10dB
10x is +20dB
100x is +40dB



ratio of two powers expressed in dB is 10 times the log base 10 of the ratio

in round numbers:

double is +3dB
half is -3dB
10x is +10dB
100x is +20dB

Hope this helps

Ted

On 12 Feb 2018 at 6:34, David Berlind wrote:

thank you @tedR: when you say "if it (the 600 ohms) is absent," you actually mean if there's
no load at all. Because, according to the math, other loads (above or below 600 ohms)
should not necessarily yield double the voltage. It will be somewhere in between. I'm trying to
understand the use cases for where maximum power transfer (watts) trumps maximum
voltage (amplitude) and vice versa. My assumption is that as you move off the maximum
power transfer point (where impedances match), you get signal distortion due to refection
and at that point, maximizing voltage means you're just maximizing a distorted signal which is
not helpful in radio or cable communications, but might be desirable in audio. The
relationship to dB is a new dimension for me. What's the math behind any dB calculations
and what is optimal? What dB am I shooting for?


Youtube link, I mentioned in previous email.

Leanna L Erickson <lle@...>
 


Re: Curve tracer plug-in for 500 series.-

 

Hi Sebasstian,
It would be easier to read my comments on the 7CT1N and 5CT1N in the paper I
wrote on my Vacuum Tube Curve Tracer adapter board.
< http://www.ke5fx.com/A_VTCT_Adapter_for_All_Tektronix_SCTs_W7PF.pdf>

Dennis Tillman W7PF

-----Original Message-----
From: TekScopes@groups.io [mailto:TekScopes@groups.io] On Behalf Of
Sebastian Garcia
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 3:35 PM
Subject: Re: [TekScopes] Curve tracer plug-in for 500 series.-

Thank you very much for your comments, Dennis.

I'll read the CTs and CT plugins docs, to understand their ups and downs.

I'm with low resources for this right now, but having here some 500-series
scopes will try to leverage one for this.

Best regards,
Sebastian.

Dennis Tillman W7PF wrote:
Hi Sebastian,

The 5CT1N is quite uncommon. I was lucky to find one but it took years
of waiting for one to appear on Ebay. The 7CT1N appears far more often
on Ebay for about the same price as the 5CT1N ($200 to $300). While
they can both test tubes with my adapter they have some serious
limitations on the plate voltage they can apply to the tube, but more
importantly they are severely limited in how much power they are
capable of. As a result they can only apply a few milliamps of plate
current. This puts real limits on the kinds of tests you can perform.
If you are looking to confirm whether a tube is working or not it will
be capable of determining that for you but if you intended to do any
design work where knowing the tube's parameters and how it will
actually perform in a circuit you would need a 577 curve tracer
instead.

Of all of the curve tracers Tek makes the 577 has the best combination
of weight, size, capability, and availability and "price to
performance ratio"
to meet your needs. That is the one I suggest you consider looking for.

Good luck, Dennis Tillman W7PF

PS I was not aware of ANY curve tracer plugins for the 500 series
scopes until you mentioned the Systron-Donner plugin. Someday I hope
to see one in use so I can see how it works.

-----Original Message-----
From: TekScopes@groups.io [mailto:TekScopes@groups.io] On Behalf Of
Sebastian Garcia
Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2018 6:53 PM
Subject: Re: [TekScopes] Curve tracer plug-in for 500 series.-

Hi Harvey, thank you for your message.

I need a curve tracer, mainly for tubes.
Tek curve tracers seem lovely, but here in this corner of the world
these are not easy to find. And trying to pass a large and heavy used
equipment through the Customs of my country is a random problem.

So, I'm evaluating developing a custom plugin for a 500-series scope,
that's the reason of my request.

Another option would be to buy a 5115 locally (have one in sight), try
to get a reasonably priced 5CT1N from eBay, and use something like
Dennis Tillman's circuit.

Any comments are welcome.

Best regards,
Sebastian.

---
Harvey White wrote:
On Sun, 11 Feb 2018 21:36:49 -0300, you wrote:

I'm looking for technical information on this kind of plugin module,
either standard or custom built.
500 series. Never heard of one. The only plugin I know of is the
5CT1N (for a 5000 series scope) or the 7CT1N for the 7000 series
scope.


The only one I know about is the Systron Donner 9550 [1], but
unfortunately I haven't found any manuals.
Never heard of it myself. Tek did make some curve tracers, but they
seem to go for a lot of $$$$.

You could build yourself one, but then there's the question of analog
or digial, and then how sophisticated you want to be.

You normally need a voltage or current step generator, variable
polarity, and a sinewave sweep, variable polarity. That's pretty
much what's in the 7CT1N series.

Your choice from here.

Harvey

Any data about something like this will be greatly appreciated.

Regards,
Sebastian.

[1] http://w140.com/tekwiki/wiki/File:Systron-Donner-9550-1.jpg
--
Dennis Tillman W7PF
TekScopes Moderator



--
Dennis Tillman W7PF
TekScopes Moderator


Re: Curve tracer plug-in for 500 series.-

Sebastian Garcia
 

Thank you very much for your comments, Dennis.

I'll read the CTs and CT plugins docs, to understand their ups and downs.

I'm with low resources for this right now, but having here some 500-series
scopes will try to leverage one for this.

Best regards,
Sebastian.




Dennis Tillman W7PF wrote:

Hi Sebastian,

The 5CT1N is quite uncommon. I was lucky to find one but it took years of
waiting for one to appear on Ebay. The 7CT1N appears far more often on
Ebay
for about the same price as the 5CT1N ($200 to $300). While they can both
test tubes with my adapter they have some serious limitations on the plate
voltage they can apply to the tube, but more importantly they are severely
limited in how much power they are capable of. As a result they can only
apply a few milliamps of plate current. This puts real limits on the kinds
of tests you can perform. If you are looking to confirm whether a tube is
working or not it will be capable of determining that for you but if you
intended to do any design work where knowing the tube's parameters and how
it will actually perform in a circuit you would need a 577 curve tracer
instead.

Of all of the curve tracers Tek makes the 577 has the best combination of
weight, size, capability, and availability and "price to performance
ratio"
to meet your needs. That is the one I suggest you consider looking for.

Good luck, Dennis Tillman W7PF

PS I was not aware of ANY curve tracer plugins for the 500 series scopes
until you mentioned the Systron-Donner plugin. Someday I hope to see one
in
use so I can see how it works.

-----Original Message-----
From: TekScopes@groups.io [mailto:TekScopes@groups.io] On Behalf Of
Sebastian Garcia
Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2018 6:53 PM
Subject: Re: [TekScopes] Curve tracer plug-in for 500 series.-

Hi Harvey, thank you for your message.

I need a curve tracer, mainly for tubes.
Tek curve tracers seem lovely, but here in this corner of the world these
are not easy to find. And trying to pass a large and heavy used equipment
through the Customs of my country is a random problem.

So, I'm evaluating developing a custom plugin for a 500-series scope,
that's
the reason of my request.

Another option would be to buy a 5115 locally (have one in sight), try to
get a reasonably priced 5CT1N from eBay, and use something like Dennis
Tillman's circuit.

Any comments are welcome.

Best regards,
Sebastian.

---
Harvey White wrote:
On Sun, 11 Feb 2018 21:36:49 -0300, you wrote:

I'm looking for technical information on this kind of plugin module,
either standard or custom built.
500 series. Never heard of one. The only plugin I know of is the
5CT1N (for a 5000 series scope) or the 7CT1N for the 7000 series
scope.


The only one I know about is the Systron Donner 9550 [1], but
unfortunately I haven't found any manuals.
Never heard of it myself. Tek did make some curve tracers, but they
seem to go for a lot of $$$$.

You could build yourself one, but then there's the question of analog
or digial, and then how sophisticated you want to be.

You normally need a voltage or current step generator, variable
polarity, and a sinewave sweep, variable polarity. That's pretty much
what's in the 7CT1N series.

Your choice from here.

Harvey

Any data about something like this will be greatly appreciated.

Regards,
Sebastian.

[1] http://w140.com/tekwiki/wiki/File:Systron-Donner-9550-1.jpg



--
Dennis Tillman W7PF
TekScopes Moderator




Re: Logic Analyzer Recommendations?

Richard R. Pope
 

Ed,
I believe that I am going to go with this one. He put up some more pictures. There are six cables in this machine. If I am looking at this correctly that would be 96 channels. He also has a copy of the CD. So for about $250 including the shipping I believe that this is a pretty good buy.
GOD Bless and Thanks,
rich!

On 2/12/2018 1:31 AM, ed beers wrote:
Keyboard an mouse are a plus since there are compatibility issues (mostly solvable by adding pullups).

Not the fastest card but lots of channels. I think you mentioned using it on a historical bus so it should be fine.

I don't see any lead sets or grabbers. Price these before you buy.

I don't know what current market prices are....

Ed

On 02/11/2018 11:06 PM, Richard R. Pope wrote:
Ed,
What about this 16702A? https://www.ebay.com/itm/253358003032.
GOD Bless and Thanks,
rich!

On 2/12/2018 12:58 AM, ed beers wrote:
16500 series host processor is dog slow so the user interface is also. It can be pretty painful unless you are really patient.

The listing you link to is populated mostly with pattern generator cards. Great if you need them but I never did.

The one logic analyzer card is slow (35 MHz state/100 MHz timing?).

The cable for the logic analyzer board is ripped.

It isn't clear from the photos that you get any lead sets and grabbers for the logic analyzer board. These are pricey.

If you want a mainframe analyzer I would look for a 16700 or 16900. 16900 may be a little expensive since I think they are still the latest and greatest. These are big and heavy so shipping is a problem.

I like the 167*g series standalone ones although I don't see any great deals on ebay right now.

Ed


On 02/11/2018 02:55 PM, Richard R. Pope wrote:
Paul and Harvey,
What do you think of this 16500? He will include a manual but he says that the OS is built in and that there are no OS disks for it. It has all of the cables. I like the idea of blades. It makes repairing one easier and cheaper in the long run.
Here is the link: https://www.ebay.com/itm/332191371457
GOD Bless and Thanks,
rich!









Re: Logic Analyzer Recommendations? S-100 Bus

Richard R. Pope
 

Hello,
To answer the question of why buy a Logic Analyzer for working with the S-100 buss? Because there are times when an LED based display or a scope just won't tell you the whole story. You just can't beat being able to see the various signals and the relationships between those signals. There is a Website: S100.computers.com that is dedicated to the S100 computer system. New boards are being manufactured and can be bought from there including LED based Diagnostic boards.
GOD Bless and Thanks,
rich!

On 2/12/2018 11:20 AM, hrgerson@... wrote:
Logic Analyzers for the S-100 Buss are nice & certainly handle faster issues.
Simpler, non-floppy versions were good at those past cpu frequency & Old S-100 Buss speeds.

A less costly, more primitive but colourful solution to slower S-100 Bus problems was an S-100 Bus Probe with LED's.
I often connected a 4 probe scope up to the individual LED's on it to have a look-see at the S-100 Bus.
Certainly, did not have to monitor the entire bus that often !

Jade made one: { sometimes for sale on eBay }
http://www.s100computers.com/Hardware%20Folder/Jade/Bus%20Probe/Bus_Probe.htm

.pdf manual: { free on the Web }
http://www.s100computers.com/Hardware%20Manuals/Jade/Jade%20BusProbe.pdf

There is also a SOL S-100 Bus bare board on eBay: {for ~ $60. No affiliation. }
https://www.ebay.com/itm/SOL-20-Bus-Probe-for-S-100-computers/152719850055?hash=item238ecffa47:g:9soAAOSwbpRZy-5x

So, why bother with floppies & difficult connectors when something simple & less expensive might do ?
e.g.)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/LHT00SU1-Virtual-Oscilloscope-Logic-Analyzer-I2C-SPI-CAN-Uart-New/132482990740?hash=item1ed89a0294:g:r0sAAOSwImRYP1Fj

_-_-_-_-_ ...





Re: Logic Analyzer Recommendations? S-100 Bus

brasscat
 

The Jade Bus Probe was intended for hardware troubleshooting. S100 mainframes at Jade had one in each, installed in the last slot. Other S100 board producers also purchased it for the same purpose. It was IEEE double size, so when installed, directly and not on and extender, the display was visible. Very handy in finding dead or shorted signals in the newly produced boards that Jade manufactured.

Stan

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