Date   
Re: SG5010 EPROM 8000 Checksum error

 

Great Dave, I will try that. I do have another one that is fully functional on the bench as well so getting the data seems like it should be easy enough.

I see you were right about the battery though, as it is reading 3.6'ish.


Cheers,


David

Re: SG5010 EPROM 8000 Checksum error

Dave Casey <dcasey@...>
 

The most likely answer is ROM rot. I had a CG511AP do the same thing once.
However, the EPROMs are socketed, so it could be a contact issue. The
first thing to try would be re-seating the chip.
If that doesn't clear the error, the next step would be to verify the
chip. Of course, to do this, you'll need a copy of what's supposed to be
in there. You will probably have to ask around to get that from someone
who has a working plug-in.
If the chip fails the verify, burn a new one and you should be all set. If
the chip verifies correctly, you'll need to probe further and see why it's
not being properly read by the microprocessor.

Dave Casey

On Fri, July 22, 2016 12:54 pm, @DavidG [TekScopes] wrote:
Dave,


Thank you for your response. That is much clearer or less muddy anyway.



So, I could simply have a bad part in that circuit that may be found by
getting her guts out on the bench and doing some deeper poking around?


If all else fails I need to have access to ultimately pull the EPROM
anyway. I am not currently educated in EPROM programming and the one
programmer I did pick up in an effort to learn the process, ended up
being faulty. Which slowed my roll to a literal crawl.


Cheers,



David






Re: SG5010 EPROM 8000 Checksum error

 

Dave,

Thank you for your response. That is much clearer or less muddy anyway.


So, I could simply have a bad part in that circuit that may be found by getting her guts out on the bench and doing some deeper poking around?


If all else fails I need to have access to ultimately pull the EPROM anyway. I am not currently educated in EPROM programming and the one programmer I did pick up in an effort to learn the process, ended up being faulty. Which slowed my roll to a literal crawl.


Cheers,


David

Re: [SPAM] Re: SG5010 EPROM 8000 Checksum error

Dave Casey <dcasey@...>
 

The battery probably has nothing to do with it. An EPROM checksum error
would be indicative that one of the firmware EPROMs is failing. There are
two EPROMs, one covers the lower address range (0x8000) and the other the
upper (0xC000). The lower one is failing the checksum test (the checksum
is also stored in that EPROM).
Replacing the EPROM with a properly programmed part should resolve the
error. If you read the old part back with a programmer and it looks right,
then you've got an external issue with that circuit.

Dave Casey

On Fri, July 22, 2016 12:14 pm, @DavidG [TekScopes] wrote:
Hello All,


I have this on the bench and hope to revive it to its former glory and
put it to use.


When installed into the mainframe and fired up it displays err 388 and
has most of the buttons lit up on the front panel. The buttons are all
non-responsive and the clear or enter buttons do not clear the error code
or allow it to continue with any POST processing.


I have poured over the manual and poked around a bit, but I am at a loss
as to how to proceed from here. The manual tells me that the 388 error
is a EPROM 8000 Checksum error, but does little more than offer that
information.


One thing I may be a little confused about is what happens when and if
the lithium battery goes bad. Does the battery being allowed to die
before replacement automatically mean that the checksums will be lost or
does something else altogether happen? Does getting this error mean that
the checksums are already lost and I will need to burn another set to the
current device or will I need an entirely new device?


I have searched the archives for ANYTHING that has 388 in it and cannot
find ANY discussion about these 388 errors on ANY piece of gear.


Any thoughts? Where is Bruce when you need him?



Cheers,



David






Re: SG5010 EPROM 8000 Checksum error

 

Hello All,

I have this on the bench and hope to revive it to its former glory and put it to use.


When installed into the mainframe and fired up it displays err 388 and has most of the buttons lit up on the front panel. The buttons are all non-responsive and the clear or enter buttons do not clear the error code or allow it to continue with any POST processing.


I have poured over the manual and poked around a bit, but I am at a loss as to how to proceed from here. The manual tells me that the 388 error is a EPROM 8000 Checksum error, but does little more than offer that information.


One thing I may be a little confused about is what happens when and if the lithium battery goes bad. Does the battery being allowed to die before replacement automatically mean that the checksums will be lost or does something else altogether happen? Does getting this error mean that the checksums are already lost and I will need to burn another set to the current device or will I need an entirely new device?


I have searched the archives for ANYTHING that has 388 in it and cannot find ANY discussion about these 388 errors on ANY piece of gear.


Any thoughts? Where is Bruce when you need him?


Cheers,


David

Re: Apollo guidance - spot the Tek scopes

Albert LaFrance
 

Thanks, Craig - I love that stuff!



Here's another documentary on the Apollo computer, from the 1960s:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIBhPsyYCiM



A couple of Teks visible, along with an HP :)



Albert





From: TekScopes@... [mailto:TekScopes@...]
Sent: Friday, July 22, 2016 12:00 PM
To: TekScopes@...
Subject: [TekScopes] Apollo guidance - spot the Tek scopes





Found this while looking for something else. It is a documentary about the
development of the
Apollo Guidance System by MIT (and also the gyros). Absolutely fascinating.
It is the 70kB of ROM,
which is a "rope memory", where the bits are hardwired by ropes of wires
threaded through toroidal
cores looking like this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Core_rope_memory .
That tiny amount of ROM
contained the programs for lunar orbit insertion, lunar landing, and earth
re-entry **Lots** of 500
series Tek scopes lurking around.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YA7X5we8ng

Craig

CRTs: looking for problems before they bite

Tom Gardner
 

Is there any way in which a CRT that appears to work could subtly damage a scope, particularly the HT/EHT sections?

I'm hypothesising problems that I have no reason to believe exist, but being an engineer, I'm a pessimist :)

The background is that I have a resuscitated 465, and have just acquired a dead 465 which I'll use as a parts mule[1].

When I insert the CRT from the dead 465 into the working 465, it works with these differences:
1) time scale is 8% different
2) slightly reduced voltage deflection
3) trace slightly rotated
4) flyback trace slightly visible, i.e. not properly blanked
I'm confident that 1-3 can be resolved simply by fettling with the PCB pots, as specified in the manual.

I presume that fettling with the blanking waveform will resolve 4, but is it indirectly indicative of a mechanism that could cause the tube to damage the good scope's HT/EHT section?

Is there any way the CRT itself could damage the voltage multiplier?

As I said, I'm hunting for possible problems, and your collective experience vastly exceeds mine!



[1] HT is ~600V, not 2.45kV, Q1404 base reflects that, Q1418's sine waves are heavily clipped. Removing the voltage multiplier's ground and output initially restored Q1404's base voltage and allowed a small display on the CRT. But after 10 minutes that disappeared and Q1404's base indicated a fault again.

Now I would replace the HT capacitors and diodes, but replacing the diode under the PCB and unobtanium multiplier is likely to be a pain. And then I'd have to fix the A trigger circuit (probably not too difficult).

So it will become a parts mule. I've already requisitioned the case and rear feet for my working 465. I suspect I'll be able to sell the CRT and knobs etc for more than I paid for the scope, especially given the current state of the pound :) :(

Re: Apollo guidance - spot the Tek scopes

widgethunter
 

Great video! Thank you, Craig!
Bernd



Sent from BlueMail





On Jul 22, 2016, 9:00 AM, at 9:00 AM, "'Craig Sawyers' c.sawyers@... [TekScopes]" <TekScopes@...> wrote:
Found this while looking for something else. It is a documentary about
the development of the
Apollo Guidance System by MIT (and also the gyros). Absolutely
fascinating. It is the 70kB of ROM,
which is a "rope memory", where the bits are hardwired by ropes of
wires threaded through toroidal
cores looking like this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Core_rope_memory
. That tiny amount of ROM
contained the programs for lunar orbit insertion, lunar landing, and
earth re-entry **Lots** of 500
series Tek scopes lurking around.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YA7X5we8ng



Craig




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Cheap Chinese probes too cheap?

 

I have had limited experience with other brands of Chinese probes but so
far they seem to work OK for me. My suggestion would be to try and find the
same or similar probes on Amazon and order from them. Amazon here in the
States has an excellent and easy return policy; should the Amazon prove
unsatisfactory you likely would have more luck getting a refund from them
than from an Ebay seller.

Re: Intro and Tek 465 Woe

 

I would start with your rough location. Maybe someone on the list is
local to you so shipping can be avoided.

On 22 Jul 2016 08:46:45 -0700, you wrote:

Fixing the rattling shield did not fix the scope - at least only the internal fuse blows now, and the main (back of case) fuse is still working. Progress but not adequate.

I want to find the scope a new home as a project (or whatever). What is the best way to do this? Should I do another post here for the scope? I am a bit concerned that if I use Freecycle or Craigslist, this scope will effectively end up in the bin / landfill.

regards -- Roger

Greetings from new user!

Eduardo Luis Marcovecchio
 

Greetings! And thanks for accepting me in the group.


I'm quite happy to be a member, even more after reading the many messages exchanged since I was accepted, it seems to be a friendly and active group, with members of high technical skill.


I'm from Brazil, a 42 years old electronics engineer, but I never worked as one. I started working on the IT industry since I was very young, and electronics became a less prioritary interest for many years.


But this changed 5 years ago and my interest on electronics surfaced again, and I'm working hard on catching up. My skills are more on digital electronics and microcontrollers, but I love all sorts of analog circuitry, specially anything CRT based, and even more if it's an oscilloscope. One can learn a lot only by studying the great and simple design solutions used on some models.


I'm in the moment restoring two non-tek scopes (dismantled both completely for cleaning and bad parts replacement), but I also recently acquired a Tek 335 to fix and restore, and I hope to share my experiences with the group!


I also have bought some NOS CRT tubes, and sometime in the future I plan to slowly design and build a scope from scratch.


Thank you all once again, glad to be here!



Eduardo

Re: Apollo guidance - spot the Tek scopes

 

Curiously it's the same basic technology that Royal Mail used to program their early sorting machines. The code mark was used to access a set of wired cores that returned the box to sort the letter to. Somewhat larger and logically simpler but otherwise the same - reprogrammed by rethreading the cores with more wire :-)

Robin

Sent from my iPhone

On 22 Jul 2016, at 16:59, 'Craig Sawyers' c.sawyers@... [TekScopes] <TekScopes@...> wrote:

Found this while looking for something else. It is a documentary about the development of the
Apollo Guidance System by MIT (and also the gyros). Absolutely fascinating. It is the 70kB of ROM,
which is a "rope memory", where the bits are hardwired by ropes of wires threaded through toroidal
cores looking like this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Core_rope_memory . That tiny amount of ROM
contained the programs for lunar orbit insertion, lunar landing, and earth re-entry **Lots** of 500
series Tek scopes lurking around.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YA7X5we8ng

Craig

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Apollo guidance - spot the Tek scopes

Craig Sawyers <c.sawyers@...>
 

Found this while looking for something else. It is a documentary about the development of the
Apollo Guidance System by MIT (and also the gyros). Absolutely fascinating. It is the 70kB of ROM,
which is a "rope memory", where the bits are hardwired by ropes of wires threaded through toroidal
cores looking like this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Core_rope_memory . That tiny amount of ROM
contained the programs for lunar orbit insertion, lunar landing, and earth re-entry **Lots** of 500
series Tek scopes lurking around.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YA7X5we8ng



Craig

Re: Intro and Tek 465 Woe

mrheyderus@...
 

Fixing the rattling shield did not fix the scope - at least only the internal fuse blows now, and the main (back of case) fuse is still working. Progress but not adequate.

I want to find the scope a new home as a project (or whatever). What is the best way to do this? Should I do another post here for the scope? I am a bit concerned that if I use Freecycle or Craigslist, this scope will effectively end up in the bin / landfill.

regards -- Roger

Re: Cheap Chinese probes too cheap?

 

I have had good results with the TX5125R 250 MHz Chinese Texas probes
but notice that they have two HF adjustments and their 500 MHz probes
have three:

http://www.hktexas.hk/en/pro_1_readout.html

HP/Agilent/Keysight uses their probes as well. The Texas probes can
be found on Ebay for $40 to $60.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/One-new-250MHZ-Oscilloscope-clip-probe-w-readout-pin-X10-Tektronix-HP-RIGOL-/280107318452
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/One-new-500MHZ-Oscilloscope-clip-probe-w-readout-pin-/220306076099

I am dubious that a single HF compensation is sufficient for 500 MHz
performance unless the probe is already tuned for a specific
oscilloscope front end but at only 200 MHz, that should not be a
problem. A fast reference level pulse generator is needed to
calibrate it though.

On Fri, 22 Jul 2016 10:26:47 +0100, you wrote:

Apologies if this has already been asked too often in the past…

Are probes like http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/131651284137 <http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/131651284137?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&var=431041841352&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT> in the “too good to be true” category?

They look appealing, what with claimed response up to 500mhz (or 300mhz) and a scale pin that should work with my 475.

Anyone tried them?

Re: Cheap Chinese probes too cheap?

Dave Voorhis
 

Thanks for the replies.

I’ve ordered one. I’ll report back when (if?) I receive it and have had a chance to try it.

I figure it’s worth a gamble, especially as I’ve spent more on less promise. For example, I spent £35 last week on two pig-in-a-poke oscilloscopes, a Solartron CD1400 and a Tek 7603 with 7B53A and 7A26 plugins. Both scopes were essentially described as having lost their magic smoke with suspicion of power transformer failure. The CD1400 turned out to merely have insulation rubbed off a power lead and it now works. I haven’t had time to look at the 7603.

On 22 Jul 2016, at 14:45, Jerry Massengale jmassen418@... [TekScopes] <TekScopes@...> wrote:

Hi,

I seriously doubt that you would be disappointed. I have not had problems
with chinese probes.

jerry


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Old Tek Manual

 

I have a pdf copy of an old Tek scope (1950), 45 pages.There is/was no model number mentioned anywhere.
It is in excellent shape, clear photos, & schematics, abt 5 Mb
If anyone is interested, I can post it to the Group (one I figure how to do it) HankC, Boston WA1HOS

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Cheap Chinese probes too cheap?

Craig Sawyers <c.sawyers@...>
 

The chinese also make very cost effective panel meters, no need to hack a DMM into place.
Sometimes you have to buy two or three different ones until you find one that will do the job, and
you must always expect that you will only get a kit that still needs finishing, but it's cheap.

ST
Ah - but I needed ACV and ACI. The Chinese panel meters that read out those quantities in the ranges
that I wanted are intended for mains power monitoring, so typically start at 80V. I needed to cover
from sub 1V to 120V, and current from 1mA to 10A. The multimeter option does autoranging so covers
the full range of what I needed most easily.

Craig

Re: Cheap Chinese probes too cheap?

Jerry Massengale <jmassen418@...>
 

Hi,

I seriously doubt that you would be disappointed. I have not had problems
with chinese probes.

jerry

On Fri, Jul 22, 2016 at 4:26 AM, Dave Voorhis voorhis@... [TekScopes]
<TekScopes@...> wrote:



Apologies if this has already been asked too often in the past…

Are probes like http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/131651284137 <
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/131651284137?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&var=431041841352&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT>
in the “too good to be true” category?

They look appealing, what with claimed response up to 500mhz (or 300mhz)
and a scale pin that should work with my 475.

Anyone tried them?




Re: DC out of cal for Tek 2247A

Darren Ting
 

Hi David,
Some changes to CH probe connect to ground:-
Shift magnitude reduce for AC coupling mode Shift gone for  DC mode while connected to GND, comeback once disconnected.  Event while  floating Volt moving, connecting to GND does not clear the charge, floating continue once disconnected from GND.
SR0 run another 2 hours, no changes
1M ohm measured not open and correct, this only measurable while power on and in DC coupling [this is normal I guess].
 >Try all of the other volts/div settings on each channel and see if any
of them have the shift when the coupling modes are changed. Also if
you have a function generator, see if the square wave response at low
frequencies (1 ms/div) is good on all volt/div settings.The shift only about 5mv, tried all vod/div it seems this 5mv maintain across all and not visible in higher that 50mv 
I believe we have something confirm here, there are some current passing through this 1M ohhm resistor creating about 5mv volt.  Why? because in DC coupling mode shorting to GND the shift gone.  But in AC coupling mode [because of Capacitor no DC pass through to discharge] shorting to GND does not cause the shift disappear.
Secondly, this issues is much deeper into circuit because even in DC coupling mode, connecting to GND does not clear the float volt immediately [the discharge not via front end circuit, but somewhere much deeper into circuit].


From: "David @DWH [TekScopes]" <TekScopes@...>
To: TekScopes@...
Sent: Friday, 22 July 2016, 14:28
Subject: Re: [TekScopes] DC out of cal for Tek 2247A

  On Fri, 22 Jul 2016 04:25:23 +0000 (UTC), you wrote:

Also tested by connecting both ch probe to ground. Shift still happen while coupling change only reduce the magnitude.
That just tells me that the problem is between the inputs and the
preamplifiers. Shorting the inputs to ground through the probes
reduces the leakage going into the preamplifiers. Usually the 1
megohm input shunt resistor does this.

Did exercise SR0. Shift distance reduced but still far from normal.
You could try running it for longer like a couple of hours. The idea
here is if one of the relays is sticking or has dirty contacts, then
operating it can restore.

Did exercise SR1 and 2 nothing happen. Normal by design?
SR stands for shift register. These tests are for the shift registers
which create the digital control signals for various functions. SR0
includes the input relays so you can hear the clicking but the others
do not have any relays.

Also exercise volt div. No relay click for 5mv and 2mv. I guess this is normal.  
Yes, this is normal; I do not hear any relay clicks between 10mv, 5mv,
and 2mv. The vertical preamplifiers shown on schematic 2 must handle
these gain settings electronically without relays. Table 3-2 on page
3-12 of the service manual shows this to be the case.

Could it be some circuit connecting to Ground is open now? That explain why GND coupling OK all the rest not OK.  
That would not explain why AC and DC coupling have a shift between
them unless the input is grounded at the BNC diverting leakage to
ground but it is still a good idea. Maybe the input 1 megohm
termination is open.

This hypothesis highly possible because I also see floating volt effect when connecting mv signal with AC coupling then disconnect, trace will take about 30sec slowly move back to original position when no signal connected.  I believe normal behaviour should return trace to original position immediately once disconnect signal.
If a high voltage overload to an oscilloscope input does not cause a
short or open, it can sometimes result in very odd damage. Maybe that
is what we are seeing.

Try all of the other volts/div settings on each channel and see if any
of them have the shift when the coupling modes are changed. Also if
you have a function generator, see if the square wave response at low
frequencies (1 ms/div) is good on all volt/div settings.
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