Re: Q122/222 Jfet J300 subs for 2215A scope ?


dave G8SFU
 

Hi Tom, my thinking went thus::

I understood from previous posts that there were a pair of identical fets. I similarly understood they were "selected".

If these two statements are correct I stand by my original suggestion.
I should admit I have not worked on a 2215 and base my opinion on reading the thread, not looking at the actual circuit.

Regards dave
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On 18 Nov 2020, 10:17, at 10:17, Tom Lee <tomlee@ee.stanford.edu> wrote:
Hi Dave,

Keep in mind that this is a 60MHz scope, and that the circuit in
question is a simple buffer. I don't see how adding a new constraint of

matching helps to fix it. I still think that the OP either has a
collection of JFETs that Murphy has arranged to have extremely off-spec

IDSS (hence my advice to simply measure it; it's trivially easy to do),

or hasn't gotten the pinouts quite right (there is not a single
standard
pinout). It is also possible that there is a separate hardware problem
that is making one channel excessively finicky. It's straightforward to

eliminate or verify possibilities 1 and 2, so if it's neither 1 nor 2,
the OP should move on to 3. It's not hard to debug the bias loop, so if

he eliminates 1 and 2, getting through 3 should be fairly quick.

Tom

--
Prof. Thomas H. Lee
Allen Ctr., Rm. 205
350 Jane Stanford Way
Stanford University
Stanford, CA 94305-4070
http://www-smirc.stanford.edu

On 11/18/2020 01:55, dave G8SFU via groups.io wrote:
Can I add a further thought to Ed Breya's suggestions.
By all means use Ed's procedure to get the best possible spec for the
required fet.
But then try and match a pair of new ones. It seems to me much more
likely to work than matching a 40 year old one with a 'new' one.
Regards.  Dave.

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On 17 Nov 2020, 20:58, at 20:58, "Ed Breya via groups.io"
<edbreya=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
It may be good to rethink and summarize what's going on with these
parts. Here's my take on it, presuming I haven't missed something.

1. There is one "good" original J310 that works properly in either
channel. This indicates the circuits for both are likely OK, as long
as
the "right" JFET characteristics are present.

2. The main issue is finding another JFET - a J310 or similar one -
that has the "same" characteristics as the good one. Alternative
part
trials so far have been unsuccessful.

3. The input circuit of the 2215A is of the opamp-stabilized type,
so
should be quite tolerant of JFET DC characteristics.

4. The "proper" part is 151-1124-00 = Siliconix J2400, which
apparently
is not a standard commercial part.

5. You have to get the pinout right, and we're assuming a TO-92
package.

6. Measuring Idss

Recommendations:

1&3. You can be pretty confident that both channel circuits are OK.
However, it's possible that one may have a minor fault or part out
of
tolerance such that it's OK with the good J310, but another part
that's
close and should work, doesn't quite. For now I think it's safe to
say
both are OK, and can be determined once a "right" part is found.

2. All along, the discussions have been mostly about getting Idss
right
- this is still the case, for DC conditions, one way or another. If
you
can find a VHF-class JFET (more on this in #5) that you can select
to
be close to the good J310, then it should work.

4. Let me explain a little about Tek and selected parts. In the old
days, when particular characteristics were needed, if they could be
selected out from stocks of generic parts at reasonable yield, Tek
often did this in-house, and a dash-number was assigned to the base
part number. This assumed also that the generic parts were used in
sufficient quantity that those not selected out (usually the -00)
would
be used up elsewhere. Later, as the real cost of all the in-house
selection and inventory and tracking complications became evident,
there was a big push to reduce this sort of stuff. One way is to
have
the vendor pre-select for the desired characteristics, out of their
much larger volumes, and assign a custom part number. This can be
done
if you're a large enough customer, and you pay a little more for the
parts to cover the vendor's cost of doing it. The benefit is that
you
get what you need, under a single part number, and you know the true
arm's-length cost. So, the supposition that J2400 is a custom part
number is likely correct - it's selected by the vendor from one of
their generic types, and sold only to Tek.

5. The pinout is important - more than just getting it connected
right.
What you want is a TO-92, with the source lead in the middle. VHF
parts
typically have this arrangement to minimize proximity and
capacitance
between gate and drain leads. The exception is if it's for
common-gate
topology, where you'd ideally want the gate in the middle, and it's
RF-grounded, and shields the drain from source. So, in choosing
possible candidates for substitution, first they should be listed as
"VHF amplifier" in the application highlights. Then look at the
pinout,
and pick only those with the source on the middle pin. The drain and
gate on the outside don't matter - you can always flip them around,
but
of course be sure what's what when installing.

6. For Idss, the easiest is to use a curve tracer and measure the
original good one - it's the gold standard, so take good care of it.
If
you don't have a curve tracer, you can rig up a simple bias circuit
for
checking and comparing. The best would be to measure the DC bias
conditions in the actual working circuit. The gate is assumed at
zero,
so all you need are the source and drain voltages, and you can
estimate
the drain current. Then set up a resistor bias scheme that gives the
same conditions if the same JFET were present. Note that this is not
an
Idss measurement (unless the source happens to also be at zero) -
it's
even better - an actual in-circuit test that can be done on the
bench
to sort the best parts to try in the real thing. In reality, the
vendor
likely sorted for a certain Idss range at a certain drain voltage,
which you don't know, but an in-circuit equivalent should be as good
or
better. There is a simple proxy for Idss, that you can use to
pre-sort
parts, rejecting those that are very unlikely to land close. Just
measure the "on" resistance of the drain-source (with gate tied to
either), with an ohmmeter, compared to that of the gold standard. I
think you'll find that the switching type JFETs will be quite low
(10-50 ohms), and the small, slow ones (like for high-Z DC
amplifiers)
quite high (over about 200 ohms). The VHF and HF ones are typically
in
the mid-range around 50-200 ohms.

The idea of putting in a temporary socket is good too, but a little
awkward working down in the guts. That will certainly tell what
works
and what doesn't.

That's all for now. Good luck.

Ed






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