Date   
Re: Firmware Update - Why can it not be made open?

agcme2002
 

--- In TMD700A@..., "Steve" <noskosteve@...> wrote:

I don't know which, but the 802.11 equipment may be under Part 15 as an INTENTIONAL radiator, OR it may have it's own Part as well as Part 15 requirements - I didn't do that stuff and never looked it up.
All 802.x equipment whether commercial or personal is Part 15 only. They all use the 2.4GHz area of the spectrum which can not be leased (a la cell phones that lease the 800/1800 MHz spectrum).

This cropped up in an argument with the IT department of a university I was at. They wanted to ban all 2.4GHz devices (microwave ovens, Bluetooth devices, other APs, video transmitters, etc.) because it was detrimental to their commercial-grade access points. A quick note from the FCC and its lawyers dutifully informed them that they should read the manual and see that the device is listed only Part 15 and nothing else and that they have not leased the 2.4GHz spectrum so they have no claims to it.

Alex

Re: Firmware Update - Why can it not be made open?

noskosteve
 

Kevin, Colin & Chris.

Chris's answer about the code and the work writing it is the main reason Kenwood (or any manufacturer) will almost certainly never release code. It is all considered as Proprietary and possibly the company's Intellectual Property (IP). I can believe it is well over 3/4 of the effort in Chris's case. Software is also almost always Copywrited.... or is it copy written? (;-)

It also may have been written in conjunction with other products and that may make it easier to modify other radios, or have code for other products that is not used in the D700. It can even have parts that may be used on future products like the D710. I don't even know if it is firmware that is re-loadable or in unchangeable ROM.

Does anyone know what processor is used? I haven't checked the service manual, nor do I know all the processors.

Colin, the certification issue is not correct for the USA (I can not comment about Canada, in this regard).

While it is a common amateur misconception, however, in the US, Amateur radio transceivers and transmitters are NOT certified for performance in regard to the transmitters, as is done for *all* other radio services. Amateur radio equipment gets a real buy on this. After all, we can build our own equipment, so amateurs can't be expected to make accurate measurements of the transmitters the way manufacturers can. The other radio systems have more opportunity to interfere with their own and other radio services than hams do, so there is, at least, some justification for this relaxation for ham equipment.

If you look at the labels, you will see that amateur radios are under Part 15 only – and in the "unintentional radiator" category. It may not say "Part 15". I see that my TH-D7 does not say Part 15, but it has the typical part 15 language of "It may not interfere and it must accept interference".

Part 15 is an interference generating consideration pretty much like a computer or other unintentionally radiating product like a TV. Modern Ham transceivers are considered to only be scanning receivers. The FCC database calls them that and you will see that they are classified in Part 15.

Amateur transmitters do have legal requirements, but, strangely, they do not, in the sense you think, require manufacturers to take data and then certify that data as being accurate. This is almost ignored in terms of an official "Certification" [ which, by the way, is no longer called "Type Acceptance"]. This may seem strange, or even that I am mistaken, but I managed a commercial radio design validation and certification lab and know the difference.

That said, it is conceivable that changing the software could change unintentionally radiated signals (spurious or spurs)...address and data lines and other digital signals could add up to be out of spec. Chris's situation is different because it is not Amateur equipment.
I don't know which, but the 802.11 equipment may be under Part 15 as an INTENTIONAL radiator, OR it may have it's own Part as well as Part 15 requirements - I didn't do that stuff and never looked it up.

What Part is your 802.11 equipment under, Chris?


If the equipment is close to the limits, it would be prudent to re-test and possibly recertify it, but it would most likely be considered to be a "permissive change" and not require retesting for the FCC Part 15 certification (as Chris describes).

It would make Anateur stuff more expensive it if had to be certified, in the same sense as other services.

RE:
someone might modify the radio to transmit out of band.
...and this is NOT a problem. Transmitters with the old type of VFOs could always operate out of band. It is the Amateur operator who is responsible for staying in band, here in the US, even with a commercial transceiver. Novice, Advance and Extra class must observe the sub-bands. The radios don't prevent us from that.

It is legal to modify your radio, so reverse engineering it and making it do what you want.


73, Steve, K9DCI

--- In TMD700A@..., "chann94501" <chann94501@...> wrote:

I work on one of the top few commercial 802.11 access points, the sort of thing you find in WalMart or Macy's, but up in the ceiling space instead of on the shelves. Each contains several radios, a fast processor, some high end network switching components and a lot of software running on a Linux 2.6 kernel. We are currently going through regulatory with a new one, we don't even use the deliverable software, we use manufacturing test code that can do things the final product can't, like continuous transmit (data radios transmit in short bursts) and CW mode. We regularly replace the software without going back to regulatory.

The reason we don't ship the source code to anyone who wants it is that it's hundreds of man years of work. We aren't giving that to anyone who wants to do their own version of our system. I'm sure some customers, and some competitors, would be very happy to see our code, but that's three quarters of our engineering effort.

Yes, the software could easily be used to break regulations, even without modifying it, all you need to do is set the wrong country code and your channel allocations and power levels would be wrong. But that's just not the problem, it's the intellectual property that we won't release.

Chris,
N9HY

--- In TMD700A@..., Colin Haig <telescope@> wrote:

Although I'd like to see this as well, I think the issue of
certification of the radio becomes a problem. As soon as someone
touches the firmware for the radio, they could theoretically make
changes that would alter its transmission characteristics, causing
interference, and exceeding limits set by government licensing
authorities. Or, someone might modify the radio to transmit out of
band. In either case, it could be argued the manufacturers would be liable.
Now if you want to reverse engineer the firmware and create your
own... that sounds like fun.
Colin VE3MSC

At 04:24 AM 2009-05-28, Kevin wrote:
Hi All,

It is a pitty that Kenwood (and that goes with the other brands as
well) that they do not open then source code to allow programmers to
improve the firmware with improved features.

Tom Tom One w/d700a?

Eric Chambers
 

Hey all,

Just curious if the 700a can hook up to a TOM TOM One. If so where can I get the cable?


Eric
KB8UYC

Re: Firmware Update - Why can it not be made open?

chann94501 <chann94501@...>
 

I work on one of the top few commercial 802.11 access points, the sort of thing you find in WalMart or Macy's, but up in the ceiling space instead of on the shelves. Each contains several radios, a fast processor, some high end network switching components and a lot of software running on a Linux 2.6 kernel. We are currently going through regulatory with a new one, we don't even use the deliverable software, we use manufacturing test code that can do things the final product can't, like continuous transmit (data radios transmit in short bursts) and CW mode. We regularly replace the software without going back to regulatory.

The reason we don't ship the source code to anyone who wants it is that it's hundreds of man years of work. We aren't giving that to anyone who wants to do their own version of our system. I'm sure some customers, and some competitors, would be very happy to see our code, but that's three quarters of our engineering effort.

Yes, the software could easily be used to break regulations, even without modifying it, all you need to do is set the wrong country code and your channel allocations and power levels would be wrong. But that's just not the problem, it's the intellectual property that we won't release.

Chris,
N9HY

--- In TMD700A@..., Colin Haig <telescope@...> wrote:

Although I'd like to see this as well, I think the issue of
certification of the radio becomes a problem. As soon as someone
touches the firmware for the radio, they could theoretically make
changes that would alter its transmission characteristics, causing
interference, and exceeding limits set by government licensing
authorities. Or, someone might modify the radio to transmit out of
band. In either case, it could be argued the manufacturers would be liable.
Now if you want to reverse engineer the firmware and create your
own... that sounds like fun.
Colin VE3MSC

At 04:24 AM 2009-05-28, Kevin wrote:
Hi All,

It is a pitty that Kenwood (and that goes with the other brands as
well) that they do not open then source code to allow programmers to
improve the firmware with improved features.

Re: Firmware Update - Why can it not be made open?

Colin Haig <telescope@...>
 

Although I'd like to see this as well, I think the issue of certification of the radio becomes a problem. As soon as someone touches the firmware for the radio, they could theoretically make changes that would alter its transmission characteristics, causing interference, and exceeding limits set by government licensing authorities. Or, someone might modify the radio to transmit out of band. In either case, it could be argued the manufacturers would be liable.
Now if you want to reverse engineer the firmware and create your own... that sounds like fun.
Colin VE3MSC

At 04:24 AM 2009-05-28, Kevin wrote:
Hi All,

It is a pitty that Kenwood (and that goes with the other brands as well) that they do not open then source code to allow programmers to improve the firmware with improved features.

Firmware Update - Why can it not be made open?

Kevin
 

Hi All,

With the TM-D700 now no longer in production due to the TM-D710 being released I feel that there is still potenual for the radio.
The biggest problem however is the limitations of the firmware it is currently at.

It is a pitty that Kenwood (and that goes with the other brands as well) that they do not open then source code to allow programmers to improve the firmware with improved features.
I can understand that the company wants you to buy the new radio, but I can't buy a new model when a new model comes out.

I do remember a number of years ago that someone cracked the code in one of the HF rigs and put some improved features.
Maybe someone has the means and knowledge to break this and improve??

Just some personal thoughts.

Kevin, ZL1KFM.

Re: Programing problem

kc9pox
 

--- In TMD700A@..., "agcme2002" <agcme2002@...> wrote:

--- In TMD700A@..., "kc9pox" <kc9pox@> wrote:

I have a problem I am looking for help with. When I program our local repeater info in my D700 in band A for our 2 meter then program band B with the 440 repeater info following the info in the owner's manual it seems to save fine. But when I hit MR side A switchs display to Side B's info and other times side B displays side A info. I have tried resets and nothing seems to work it seems like the info is lost. I am new to Amateur Radio and this is my 1st radio so any help would be welcome.

The D700 does not have "sides" when it comes to memory programming. You simply have 200 memory slots available to both "sides". What the "sides" refer to is which one has the dominant transmitter. "Side A" is dominant 2m and "Side B" is dominant 70cm. You need to make sure the two repeaters you're programming are using independent memory slot numbers (say Slot 10 and Slot 11). Also, both "sides" are capable of transmitting on 2m or 70cm but there's a specific pattern. The radio defaults to A/B as 2m/70cm. It can also be 2m/2m and 70cm/70cm. The one combination that doesn't work is 70cm/2m (backwards from default).
That makes since, I will change the way I save. Thanks for the help.

Re: Programing problem

agcme2002
 

--- In TMD700A@..., "kc9pox" <kc9pox@...> wrote:

I have a problem I am looking for help with. When I program our local repeater info in my D700 in band A for our 2 meter then program band B with the 440 repeater info following the info in the owner's manual it seems to save fine. But when I hit MR side A switchs display to Side B's info and other times side B displays side A info. I have tried resets and nothing seems to work it seems like the info is lost. I am new to Amateur Radio and this is my 1st radio so any help would be welcome.

The D700 does not have "sides" when it comes to memory programming. You simply have 200 memory slots available to both "sides". What the "sides" refer to is which one has the dominant transmitter. "Side A" is dominant 2m and "Side B" is dominant 70cm. You need to make sure the two repeaters you're programming are using independent memory slot numbers (say Slot 10 and Slot 11). Also, both "sides" are capable of transmitting on 2m or 70cm but there's a specific pattern. The radio defaults to A/B as 2m/70cm. It can also be 2m/2m and 70cm/70cm. The one combination that doesn't work is 70cm/2m (backwards from default).

Re: Allowing radio to be turned on/off by ignition power

Jim Shorney
 

On Mon, 25 May 2009 03:29:21 -0000, Steve wrote:

So... OFF, Isn' ! (:-)

Nice writeup, Steve. Very informative. Thanks!

73

-Jim

--
Ham Radio NU0C
Lincoln, Nebraska, U.S.S.A.
TR7/RV7/R7A/L7, TR6/RV6, T4XC/R4C/L4B, NCL2000, SB104A, R390A, GT550A/RV550A, HyGain 3750, IBM PS/2 - all vintage, all the time!

"Give a man a URL, and he will learn for an hour; teach him to Google, and he will learn for a lifetime."

HyGain 3750 User's Group - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HyGain_3750/
http://radiojim.exofire.net
http://incolor.inetnebr.com/jshorney
http://www.nebraskaghosts.org

Re: Allowing radio to be turned on/off by ignition power

Jim Shorney
 

On Mon, 25 May 2009 03:31:34 -0000, Steve wrote:

DAMN! I need one for proper Wife unit interfacing...

Maybe you need an upgrade....

73

-Jim



--
Ham Radio NU0C
Lincoln, Nebraska, U.S.S.A.
TR7/RV7/R7A/L7, TR6/RV6, T4XC/R4C/L4B, NCL2000, SB104A, R390A, GT550A/RV550A, HyGain 3750, IBM PS/2 - all vintage, all the time!

"Give a man a URL, and he will learn for an hour; teach him to Google, and he will learn for a lifetime."

HyGain 3750 User's Group - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HyGain_3750/
http://radiojim.exofire.net
http://incolor.inetnebr.com/jshorney
http://www.nebraskaghosts.org

Programing problem

kc9pox
 

I have a problem I am looking for help with. When I program our local repeater info in my D700 in band A for our 2 meter then program band B with the 440 repeater info following the info in the owner's manual it seems to save fine. But when I hit MR side A switchs display to Side B's info and other times side B displays side A info. I have tried resets and nothing seems to work it seems like the info is lost. I am new to Amateur Radio and this is my 1st radio so any help would be welcome.

Re: Allowing radio to be turned on/off by ignition power

noskosteve
 

--- In TMD700A@..., "Jim Shorney" <jshorney@...> wrote:

On Mon, 25 May 2009 02:00:21 -0000, Steve wrote:

WOW! You got a Spec. or service manual? Please post it.

Sorry, left it on my home planet...

DAMN! I need one for proper Wife unit interfacing...

73, Steve, K9DCI

Re: Allowing radio to be turned on/off by ignition power

noskosteve
 

In short, YES.

Folks, this radio is NEVER off!

Long story...

While I agree that it *should* be a lower risk to have it off while cranking, there are a few things to keep in mind.

As pointed out by Dale, W7IXK, the radio *is* designed to be in a vehicle and withstand load dump from cranking and other inductive loads that get switched. More correctly, it MUST be or it'd die right off. The auto electrical system is very VERY dirty. I have designed radios and engine control module circuitry for vehicles.

Perhaps more importantly, you must also realize that this radio can never be fully "off"! It has a soft switch on the head. Something's gotta' sense that and get things going. Like almost all electronic devices these days.

In this radio, TWO processors must always be running. A scan of the service manual shows the following.

A Processor running in the head senses the power button, sends a serial signal to the radio, turns on the lights and power to the Vol/Sq knobs. The power to this Processor, ROM and Serial driver/receiver are always on - through a regulator in the radio.

The battery leads (power bus) has two reverse polarity (and negative transient) protection diodes and two 1,000 uF caps.

A Processor running in the radio receives the turn-on signal from the head. I didn't trace what gets turned off – except...
The battery power bus goes to the Head regulator mentioned above and that pesky F901 then to a power switching transistor, that turns off radio circuitry that I didn't bother to check [the schematic is very busy]. This transistor switch is controlled by said radio micro processor.
This Radio battery bus also goes DIRECTLY to both transmit final modules, so they are connected to the power leads all the time [just like all mobile radios that transmit].

So... OFF, Isn' ! (:-)

73, Steve, K9DCI
I also do it and run my D700 from one of the "Power Outlets" in my van or car.

--- In TMD700A@..., "myoungarc" <myoungarc@...> wrote:

I have currently rewired my radio to work with the ignition power through via a relay. ...
Is this safe ...?

Re: Allowing radio to be turned on/off by ignition power

Jim Shorney
 

On Mon, 25 May 2009 02:00:21 -0000, Steve wrote:

WOW! You got a Spec. or service manual? Please post it.

Sorry, left it on my home planet...

73

-Jim

--
Ham Radio NU0C
Lincoln, Nebraska, U.S.S.A.
TR7/RV7/R7A/L7, TR6/RV6, T4XC/R4C/L4B, NCL2000, SB104A, R390A, GT550A/RV550A, HyGain 3750, IBM PS/2 - all vintage, all the time!

"Give a man a URL, and he will learn for an hour; teach him to Google, and he will learn for a lifetime."

HyGain 3750 User's Group - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HyGain_3750/
http://radiojim.exofire.net
http://incolor.inetnebr.com/jshorney
http://www.nebraskaghosts.org

Re: Allowing radio to be turned on/off by ignition power

noskosteve
 

WOW! You got a Spec. or service manual? Please post it.

73, Steve, K9DCI

--- In TMD700A@..., "Jim Shorney" <jshorney@...> wrote:


The human body was designed to run in temperatures of 95-100 degrees
(F). Why do we have air conditioning?

Re: Allowing radio to be turned on/off by ignition power

Jim Shorney
 

On Fri, 22 May 2009 19:05:29 -0400 (EDT), DALE
BLANCHARD wrote:


----- Original Message -----
From: "Nigel Service" <ve1nps@...>

Because of voltage spikes on start up it is always better to start the
engine then turn on the radio. I realize that many people never have
problems with the radio on then starting but better safe than sorry.
73
VE1NPS Nigel

How do you know that ??.

Ohm's Law and inductor theory.


Mobile radios are designed to run under that environment.

Millions of them do it every day.
The human body was designed to run in temperatures of 95-100 degrees
(F). Why do we have air conditioning?




--
Ham Radio NU0C
Lincoln, Nebraska, U.S.S.A.
TR7/RV7/R7A/L7, TR6/RV6, T4XC/R4C/L4B, NCL2000, SB104A, R390A, GT550A/RV550A, HyGain 3750, IBM PS/2 - all vintage, all the time!

"Give a man a URL, and he will learn for an hour; teach him to Google, and he will learn for a lifetime."

HyGain 3750 User's Group - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HyGain_3750/
http://radiojim.exofire.net
http://incolor.inetnebr.com/jshorney
http://www.nebraskaghosts.org

Engine start problems

Nigel P. Service, VE1NPS <ve1nps@...>
 

Obviously you never came across and used the Yaesu 2600. A mobile unit. This one consistently dropped its frequency memory when starting the engine with the radio on. I never discovered whether it was a spike that caused the memory loss or drop in vehicle voltage when the starter was engaged. The 700 as noted in another email will give a blank screen if vehicle voltage is low------------rather scary if it you have never seen it happen before.( I have had it happen to me.) Bottom line is that most manufacturers agree that the engine should be running before you turn on the radio. Another way of looking at the situation. When do most conventional household light bulbs burn out? As soon as you turn on the switch. That surge of power (P=IE) takes its toll!
73
VE1NPS Nigel

Re: Allowing radio to be turned on/off by ignition power

Dale Blanchard
 

----- Original Message -----
From: "Nigel Service" <ve1nps@...>
To: TMD700A@...
Sent: Friday, May 22, 2009 2:13:28 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
Subject: Re: [TMD700A] Allowing radio to be turned on/off by ignition power








Because of voltage spikes on start up it is always better to start the
engine then turn on the radio. I realize that many people never have
problems with the radio on then starting but better safe than sorry.
73
VE1NPS Nigel

How do you know that ??.

Mobile radios are designed to run under that environment.

Millions of them do it every day.

dale

_,___

Re: Allowing radio to be turned on/off by ignition power

Dave <bluesoftail_98@...>
 

I ran a Kenwood TM-742 tri-bander and a seperate aprs tracker this way for many years with no problems. I plan on doing this to my D700 as well with a shut off timer so it can beacon once after I'm parked.

--- On Fri, 5/22/09, John and Brenda Kintz <jkbk@...> wrote:

From: John and Brenda Kintz <jkbk@...>
Subject: Re: [TMD700A] Allowing radio to be turned on/off by ignition power
To: TMD700A@...
Date: Friday, May 22, 2009, 4:41 PM

















myoungarc wrote:

I have currently rewired my radio to work with the ignition power through via a relay. I am not drawing power through a ignition source, but to turn on and off a relay. Is this safe for the radio to be cut of power each time I turn the vehicle off or is using the power button to power on and off the unit safer and better option? Basically I want to know is it safe for the radio to have the power be turned off without turning off the radio first?


I'd say it's probably safe to switch the radio this way... I've been

doing it with mine for more than 5 years without a problem.



John

AC4JK

Re: Allowing radio to be turned on/off by ignition power

Nigel Service <ve1nps@...>
 

Because of voltage spikes on start up it is always better to start the
engine then turn on the radio. I realize that many people never have
problems with the radio on then starting but better safe than sorry.
73
VE1NPS Nigel

2009/5/22 John and Brenda Kintz <jkbk@...>



myoungarc wrote:
I have currently rewired my radio to work with the ignition power through
via a relay. I am not drawing power through a ignition source, but to turn
on and off a relay. Is this safe for the radio to be cut of power each time
I turn the vehicle off or is using the power button to power on and off the
unit safer and better option? Basically I want to know is it safe for the
radio to have the power be turned off without turning off the radio first?

I'd say it's probably safe to switch the radio this way... I've been
doing it with mine for more than 5 years without a problem.

John
AC4JK