Date   
Re: Just back from some travels and have a few questions

Derek Higham
 

Sorry to correct you Marcus, but this week the Interlaken Meiringen shuttle has been 130 010 until today when 130 003 has replaced it.
On a geographically related subject, BOB 311 has been out 3 days (Tuesday to Thursday) this week on a Lauterbrunnen diagram, although not without incident as the 10:02 Lauterbrunnen departure it should have worked on Wednesday was declared a technical failure and cancelled.
CheersD

Re: SERSA locomotive 'Erwin'

Alan Kent <alankent46@...>
 

Hello
Thank you - perhaps my reading of the fabric number was wrong!
Alan

Re: Just back from some travels and have a few questions

Thomas
 

On Fri, Jul 19, 2019 at 02:45 PM, Guerbetaler wrote:

Thank you for the update. Do you know for how long SPATZen are back on
the Interlaken side?
Sorry, I don't know.

Rgds, Thomas.

German Catenary and Signalling in Basle

Clive Dean
 

Having watched this cab ride video on You Tube, when at 3.15 the train enters Switzerland, I'd like to ask why the catenary is of German type until the border, with the signalling changing near but not at the border. https://youtu.be/u5ZmrTJs47Q?t=195. Is this historical due to the builder of the railway, or for some other reason. At most country borders, but not all by any means, the catenary usually changes at the border and the signalling at the station at which most loco changes (if any) are made.

Re: German Catenary and Signalling in Basle

Guerbetaler
 

Am 20.07.2019 um 15:39 schrieb Clive Dean:
Having watched this cab ride video on You Tube, when at 3.15 the
train enters Switzerland, I'd like to ask why the catenary is of
German type until the border, with the signalling changing near but
not at the border. https://youtu.be/u5ZmrTJs47Q?t=195. Is this
historical due to the builder of the railway, or for some other
reason. At most country borders, but not all by any means, the
catenary usually changes at the border and the signalling at the
station at which most loco changes (if any) are made.
The train doesn't enter Switzerland at 3:15. The railway border is earlier than the road border. See
<https://map.geo.admin.ch/?lang=en&topic=ech&bgLayer=ch.swisstopo.pixelkarte-farbe&E=2612513&N=1270481&zoom=9&crosshair=marker>

And the situation around Basel is quite complicated, because, thanks to a common voltage, there is not a single point of change. There is rather a border area, which has been defined in official contracts between Germany and Switzerland. These are the so called "Grenzbetriebsstrecken" which allow a locomotive approved for Germany to reach Muttenz and Basel SBB and allow a locomotive approved for Switzerland to reach Weil am Rhein. Thus, the transition can be made either in Weil or in Muttenz or even in Basel Bad and for passenger trains and in exceptional cases for freight trains in Basel SBB.

This requires the Swiss Infrastructure Manager to have Indusi in addition to EuroZUB/ETCS L1LS into Muttenz and it requires the German Infrastructure Manager (IM) to have EuroZUB/ETCS L1LS in addition to Indusi into Weil am Rhein.

Now, the German IM is always DB Netz. But, because the infrastrucutre to Basel Bad until the Rhine bridge is owned by the German State, IM for this Swiss infrastructure is also DB Netz. They have to obey Swiss laws but generally build to German standards.

At 2:40 you can see tow Eurobalises for EuroZUB/ETCS L1LS followed by Indusi on the right hand side, again at 2:44/2:45, at 3:44/3:50 and at 4:08/4:12.

Markus, Gürbetal

Re: German Catenary and Signalling in Basle

Clive Dean
 

Thanks for that comprehensive reply Markus. Could I ask why the infrastructure until the Rhine Bridge is owned by the German state?

Re: German Catenary and Signalling in Basle

Guerbetaler
 

Am 20.07.2019 um 23:07 schrieb Clive Dean:
Could I ask why the infrastructure until the Rhine Bridge is owned by
the German state?
The Badische Staaatsbahn at that time was building a line up the right side of the Rhine (sides on rivers are always looking in the direction the water flows). In Basel it reached Swiss territory as the border exceptionally doesn't follow the river. In 1852 a - still valid - treaty between the Swiss Confederation and the state of Baden fixed the important questions. They built their own station on the right side of the Rhein, in Kleinbasel as it is called, opened 1855. Construction was immediately continued in the direction of Singen/Konstanz and the line also crosses the canton of Schaffhausen, another Swiss area on the right side of the Rhine. This was opened in 1863. Already in 1859 a bridge was built between Waldshut and Koblenz, which was the first connection between the German and the Swiss network.

Only in 1873, 18 years later, a connection was built between Basel Badischer Bahnhof and Basel Centralbahnhof (the station of SCB).

The Badische Staatsbahn was integrated into the Deutsche Reichsbahn and became Deutsche Bundesbahn after WW II. When DB became a separate company, Germany didn't transfer the infrastructure in Switzerland, but contracted DB Netz AG to operate it. Thus the very special status of this infrastructure. Today the swiss confederation subsidizes operation and maintenance of this German infrastructure. On the other hand, Swiss track access charges are valid, not the German system. And all this based on a treaty of 1852!

<https://www.admin.ch/opc/de/classified-compilation/18520001/index.html>
(only available in German, French and Italian)

To add another little oddity: The Badische Staatsbahn had started to build its network with a gauge of 1600 mm (5'3") and had reached Weil am Rhein, when it was decided to standardize the gauge, which was effectuated in 1854/55, just before crossing the border into Switzerland. So we never had 1600 mm in Switzerland...

Markus, Gürbetal

Border crossing

Guerbetaler
 

After the explanations about the special ownership of infrastructure around Basel and Schaffhausen, a survey about the situation at other border crossings:

The regular case is a brake at the border itself, as it is also the case on the Waldshut - Koblenz Rhine bridge. Different situations exist at the following points:

- Bülach - Schaffhausen line crosses Germany without connecting there to the German network. The line is owned by SBB and built to Swiss standards but under German laws.

- BLT-line through Leymen (France) is owned by BLT.

- RhB-line to Tirano is owned by RhB, including the station.

- The Austrian lines from Bregenz and Feldkirch are owned by ÖBB until the entry into the stations of St. Margrethen and Buchs. There for ÖBB has a Swiss concession for the two times a few hundered meters of Infrastructure.

Another exception had originally been the Genève - La Plaine line, built and owned by the French company PLM. But this line was taken over by the Swiss Confederation in 1913 and is now SBB-owned.

Markus, Gürbetal

Re: German Catenary and Signalling in Basle

Chris Wood
 

Markus writes:

To add another little oddity: The Badische Staatsbahn had started to build its network with a gauge of 1600 mm (5'3") and
had reached Weil am Rhein, when it was decided to standardize the gauge, which was effectuated in 1854/55, just before
crossing the border into Switzerland. So we never had 1600 mm in Switzerland
I thought that the original Zürich–Baden railway (the Spanisch-Brötli-Bahn) was built to 1600mm gauge when it opened (1847), and re-gauged around the same time as the Badische Staatsbahn (1854).

Re: German Catenary and Signalling in Basle

Guerbetaler
 

Am 22.07.2019 um 16:14 schrieb Chris Wood via Groups.Io:
Markus writes:
... So we never had 1600 mm in Switzerland
I thought that the original Zürich–Baden railway (the
Spanisch-Brötli-Bahn) was built to 1600mm gauge when it opened
(1847), and re-gauged around the same time as the Badische Staatsbahn
(1854).
We never had 1600 mm in Switzerland, for sure.

Maybe some article writer mixed up Baden and Baden at some time. sounds very similar. :-) But I have never seen such an erroneous information anywhere.

Markus, Gürbetal

Re: German Catenary and Signalling in Basle

Andrew Moglestue
 

I believe the original Badischer Bahnhof, before the connecting line was built, was located on the site of the present Messe.

Re: German Catenary and Signalling in Basle

Clive Dean
 

Thank you for further very comprehensive reply Marcus. All very
interestingly. Also your comments on other border crossings.

Re: Border crossing

Clive Dean
 

Strangely Marcus I was looking at that tramway only this morning at how it
crosses a small part of France. Interesting to see that lots of place names
and features retain their former German names
K

Re: German Catenary and Signalling in Basle

Guerbetaler
 

Am 22.07.2019 um 16:36 schrieb Andrew Moglestue via Groups.Io:
I believe the original Badischer Bahnhof, before the connecting line
was built, was located on the site of the present Messe.
This is partly correct. Yes it was on the site of the present Messe, but
it was also after the connecting line was built. Relocation was only in
1913.

<https://map.geo.admin.ch/?lang=en&topic=ech&bgLayer=ch.swisstopo.swissimage&layers=ch.swisstopo.zeitreihen,ch.bfs.gebaeude_wohnungs_register,ch.bav.haltestellen-oev,ch.swisstopo.swisstlm3d-wanderwege&layers_visibility=true,false,false,false&layers_timestamp=19121231,,,&E=2612743.85&N=1268475.05&zoom=7>

Markus, Gürbetal

Re: Westbahn KISS, was: Serious Austrian accident: Concern about Stadler KISS crashworthyness

Martin Baumann
 
Edited

After the rumours about buying Chinese equipment it has now been announced that Westbahn have ordered 15 6 car KISS units from Stadler.

They have agreed the sale of all their existing trains to DB. 9 units will transfer in December this year meaning Westbahn will reduce their service between Vienna and Salzburg to hourly and only run from Westbahnhof until the new units are in service in 2021.

Although 4110.010 was repaired some time ago. It has remained stored in Switzerland and my now go direct to DB

Re: Westbahn KISS

Guerbetaler
 

Am 22.07.2019 um 18:22 schrieb Martin Baumann:
After the rumours about buying Chinese equipment it has now been
announced that Westbahn have ordered 15 6 car KISS units from
Stadler.
Some more details from local (Swiss) newspapers and local (Westbahn) sightings:

I haven't seen more than one EMU in a train until now but some trains are made up of only one four car unit. Patronage seems to be good. Nevertheless the main owner of Westbahn said that he has lost EUR 80m until now. But he will continue.

Due to the currently very low capital costs, Westbahn put a bid for 15 6-car double deckers with 5 different manufacturers. It seems that they can reduce their annual costs with this deal.

On the other hand, DB is glad to have trains that really run and will use them instead of ... Bombardier double deckers! in Brandenburg, Sachsen and Mecklenburg-Vorpommern (East Germany). DB says that these trainsets reached the highest customer satisfaction.

Rumors say that Peter Spuhler was VERY active behind the scene.

Another rumor has it that CRRC wouldn't have been able to buy an ETCS-equipment from any European manufacturer for these trains, thus approval would have become very difficult.

CRRC ante portas. But not yet in...

Markus, Gürbetal (currently Gmunden)

Re: Border crossing

stephenhorobin
 

The reason is some places retain their German names is that are or were in the Department of Alsace which historically is a Germanic region with its own recognised dialect.
Also of interest in this area of Switzerland is how other cantons have an enclave in other cantons. It must be a very difficult region to administrate and deal with officialdom!

Re: Westbahn KISS

Martin Baumann
 

12 car trains operated Wien Westbahnhof-Salzburg in the past at peak times such as Friday afternoon but I don't think they have operated 2 sets together since the Praterstern-Meidling-Salzburg route started. (This will be suspended for two years from Decemeber 2019)

Re: Westbahn KISS

Max Wyss
 

One point mentioned in the article in Railway Gazette International is that
Westbahn, not being a public entity, can shorten the procurement process,
whereas it would have taken way too long for DB to procure new rolling
stock. Getting the well-maintained Westbahn trains is a boon for DB, as
well as for Westbahn. And they say that they did get a good deal with
Stadler…



Re: SBB Cargo locos

Martin Baumann
 

SBB Cargo International will be acquiring another 20 Vectron that will be leased from SüdLeasing. They are expected from the end of this year to mid 2020. They will be passed for Holland Germany Austria and Italy in addition to Switzerland.

(railcolor.net)