Heavy 10 Single Tumbler Gearbox - Want to Buy


Vince Eugenio
 

Hi Folks,

I have a bad crack the gear box casting of my single tumbler 1938 heavy 9 wide bed lathe. (My fault, long shameful story.) I am looking to buy a complete unit that is good, or just the main casting that all the gears are housed in including the single tumbler lever. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks!

Vince.Eugenio.Phd@...


david_g4000
 

Vince,

I also have a single tumbler 1933 and love it. Used it today in fact.

If you do not find a replacement casting, they can be brazed back together by a skilled welder. It must be cleaned and ground for filling with brazing. Then heated carefully to a high temperture, then brazed, and then allowed to cool very slowly while wrapped in a fiberglass welding blanket or buried in dry sand overnight. I have successfully done so with some smaller castings.

Good luck, I hope you find a casting.

Dave

On 9/10/2021 4:31 PM, Vince Eugenio wrote:
Hi Folks,

I have a bad crack the gear box casting of my single tumbler 1938 heavy 9 wide bed lathe. (My fault, long shameful story.) I am looking to buy a complete unit that is good, or just the main casting that all the gears are housed in including the single tumbler lever. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks!

Vince.Eugenio.Phd@...


Vince Eugenio
 

Thanks Dave, that is what I have found as well. 


Tim Bowers
 

You might rethink the difficulty of welding cast iron after watching these videos. I am planning to attempt it this way. The reason for all the traditional heating/cooling process is due to the characteristics of CI and Brass which leads to cracking.

https://youtu.be/adcdC8uAhR0

https://youtu.be/xfXqcOYqByQ


eddie.draper@btinternet.com
 

I have a good number of successful C/I weld repairs to my name. I use only pure Nickel MMA (stick) rods and a DC welder, with the job bombarding the electrode with electrons so it gets 2/3rds of the heat and the job only 1/3rd. (I.e. electrode +, job -, the usual arrangement with DC welding.)


There are 2 ways to proceed, either you need lots of tea and get very thirsty, or you can drink lots of tea.


The first way is to make the whole job red hot and keep it that way throughout the process, allowing it to cool uniformly afterwards. One way to achieve uniform cooling is to insulate and therefore cool slowly, but there are other ways. This is very good where the size of the workpiece brings it within your heating capabilities. There are professional outfits that weld large objects like this, by building a firebrick oven around the job, sticking a gas torch through a hole, and then welding via another hole. Not a pleasant way to earn a living on a hot day. British Rail used to have locomotive cylinder heads of V16 3300 HP Diesel engines (10" bore x 12" stroke, which is approximately 15 litres per cylinder) welded like this, and they lasted no worse than a new one.


The other way is to heat only to take the chill off, say 50C, and weld for no more than 3 seconds at a time, immediately then hammering with a pointed chipping hammer, then allowing heat soak for a while to spread the temperature throughout the object. For large objects, and especially handy where there is more than one job to work on. I once repaired 5 cast iron window frames like this, keeping moving from one to the next almost without dead time.


Both methods need a weld prep that is virtually like one for steel, BUT the materials have a quirk, and that is that the arc tries to stick to one side of the groove or the other so you need to have a groove that is wide enough for you to be able to keep pulling it back & forth.


I always try to make the job stronger than the original, especially if I don't know why the crack occurred. One of the attached photos shows a radius rod lifter from my steam loco which contained a longitudinal crack. I can't imagine how that occurred, so after welding, I shrank on some steel reinforcing rings. The original profile is still on the RH end.


The other photo is me grooving out an oil tray from the underside of an axle bearing. I could see why this was cracked, a weak design in conjunction with heavy handed spannering, so the only post weld "reinforcement" here has been painting the oil side with fibre glass resin to keep the oil from penetrating any porosity, and being careful with the spanners.


Both the above jobs were in the "small" i.e. hot category. I welded a longitudinal crack in one of the cylinders the cold way, as heating the whole cylinder was entirely unfeasible (just over 8" bore and probably weighs 1/4 ton). Additionally, it had just been rebored and the valve face skimmed, so I didn't want any distortion. The crack started at a weak point where a cylinder drain cock hole was in line with a hole for a cover fastening stud (it would have been so simple to avoid this alignment and weakness at the design stage, but that was pre 1914). In addition to welding up as much of the crack as I could, I drilled & tapped across the line of the crack through the drain cock boss for a grade 12.9 Allen screw, bolted a block either side of the crack and pulled these together with 2 more Allen screws, and added some extra cylinder cover fasteners either side of the existing and made sure those were properly tight. The weld needed to be ground back a little below the rubbing surface for the piston rings, as Nickel is a poor bearing material, known to cause crankshaft bearing seizures in Diesel engines if the interlayer that prevents diffusion between layers of a shell becomes exposed to any great extent.


I suggest you practice on a piece of scrap first, in order to prevent the job from becoming just that! Take care to preserve critical alignments during all processes. In the case of you gearbox, it would be the holes for your shafts. Maybe clamping across the crack to hold it shut during the hot work would be the right thing to do.


Good luck and best wishes,


Eddie




------ Original Message ------
From: "Vince Eugenio" <vince.eugenio.phd@...>
To: SouthBendLathe@groups.io
Sent: Friday, 10 Sep, 21 At 21:53
Subject: Re: [SouthBendLathe] Heavy 10 Single Tumbler Gearbox - Want to Buy

Thanks Dave, that is what I have found as well.


rlm_mcv
 

I know it is not common excepted practice, but I used to turn up the argon/mix on my Mig and welded cast all the time without failure of the welds.  I did weld some broken castings from a 24 inch X 12 foot South Bend of about 1920 vintage.  They welded easily with the mig and were still in service when the lathe sold 30 yrs later.  My guess is the mig allowed less heat and a more flexible filler metal.  It has worked for me on a multitude of items, but try at your own risk.

On Saturday, September 11, 2021, 03:07:11 PM CDT, eddie.draper@... via groups.io <eddie.draper@...> wrote:


I have a good number of successful C/I weld repairs to my name. I use only pure Nickel MMA (stick) rods and a DC welder, with the job bombarding the electrode with electrons so it gets 2/3rds of the heat and the job only 1/3rd. (I.e. electrode +, job -, the usual arrangement with DC welding.)


There are 2 ways to proceed, either you need lots of tea and get very thirsty, or you can drink lots of tea.


The first way is to make the whole job red hot and keep it that way throughout the process, allowing it to cool uniformly afterwards. One way to achieve uniform cooling is to insulate and therefore cool slowly, but there are other ways. This is very good where the size of the workpiece brings it within your heating capabilities. There are professional outfits that weld large objects like this, by building a firebrick oven around the job, sticking a gas torch through a hole, and then welding via another hole. Not a pleasant way to earn a living on a hot day. British Rail used to have locomotive cylinder heads of V16 3300 HP Diesel engines (10" bore x 12" stroke, which is approximately 15 litres per cylinder) welded like this, and they lasted no worse than a new one.


The other way is to heat only to take the chill off, say 50C, and weld for no more than 3 seconds at a time, immediately then hammering with a pointed chipping hammer, then allowing heat soak for a while to spread the temperature throughout the object. For large objects, and especially handy where there is more than one job to work on. I once repaired 5 cast iron window frames like this, keeping moving from one to the next almost without dead time.


Both methods need a weld prep that is virtually like one for steel, BUT the materials have a quirk, and that is that the arc tries to stick to one side of the groove or the other so you need to have a groove that is wide enough for you to be able to keep pulling it back & forth.


I always try to make the job stronger than the original, especially if I don't know why the crack occurred. One of the attached photos shows a radius rod lifter from my steam loco which contained a longitudinal crack. I can't imagine how that occurred, so after welding, I shrank on some steel reinforcing rings. The original profile is still on the RH end.


The other photo is me grooving out an oil tray from the underside of an axle bearing. I could see why this was cracked, a weak design in conjunction with heavy handed spannering, so the only post weld "reinforcement" here has been painting the oil side with fibre glass resin to keep the oil from penetrating any porosity, and being careful with the spanners.


Both the above jobs were in the "small" i.e. hot category. I welded a longitudinal crack in one of the cylinders the cold way, as heating the whole cylinder was entirely unfeasible (just over 8" bore and probably weighs 1/4 ton). Additionally, it had just been rebored and the valve face skimmed, so I didn't want any distortion. The crack started at a weak point where a cylinder drain cock hole was in line with a hole for a cover fastening stud (it would have been so simple to avoid this alignment and weakness at the design stage, but that was pre 1914). In addition to welding up as much of the crack as I could, I drilled & tapped across the line of the crack through the drain cock boss for a grade 12.9 Allen screw, bolted a block either side of the crack and pulled these together with 2 more Allen screws, and added some extra cylinder cover fasteners either side of the existing and made sure those were properly tight. The weld needed to be ground back a little below the rubbing surface for the piston rings, as Nickel is a poor bearing material, known to cause crankshaft bearing seizures in Diesel engines if the interlayer that prevents diffusion between layers of a shell becomes exposed to any great extent.


I suggest you practice on a piece of scrap first, in order to prevent the job from becoming just that! Take care to preserve critical alignments during all processes. In the case of you gearbox, it would be the holes for your shafts. Maybe clamping across the crack to hold it shut during the hot work would be the right thing to do.


Good luck and best wishes,


Eddie




------ Original Message ------
From: "Vince Eugenio" <vince.eugenio.phd@...>
To: SouthBendLathe@groups.io
Sent: Friday, 10 Sep, 21 At 21:53
Subject: Re: [SouthBendLathe] Heavy 10 Single Tumbler Gearbox - Want to Buy

Thanks Dave, that is what I have found as well.


Ondrej Krejci
 

Hello,

Hopefully you can find a replacement easily, if not, I vote for simple bronze brazing.
Oxy-propane kits aren´t expensive and for the occasional brazing job sufficient.
Personally, I´ve used mine to braze a 1917 Monarch lathe gear quadrant and an ancient electric motor frame, both cast iron.

Happy hunting or brazing,


OK


eddie.draper@btinternet.com
 

Apologies to all for going a bit off topic, but I'm fascinated by this and would like to try it. What filler wire did you use, please? Was the current & wire feed the same as you would use on mild steel? Any pre / post heating? Any limit to duration of welding if intermittent? How much did you turn up the gas cf steel work, and what mix was it?


Thanks,


Eddie




------ Original Message ------
From: "rlm_mcv via groups.io" <rlm_mcv@...>
To: "SouthBendLathe@groups.io" <SouthBendLathe@groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, 11 Sep, 21 At 21:38
Subject: Re: [SouthBendLathe] Heavy 10 Single Tumbler Gearbox - Want to Buy

I know it is not common excepted practice, but I used to turn up the argon/mix on my Mig and welded cast all the time without failure of the welds. I did weld some broken castings from a 24 inch X 12 foot South Bend of about 1920 vintage. They welded easily with the mig and were still in service when the lathe sold 30 yrs later. My guess is the mig allowed less heat and a more flexible filler metal. It has worked for me on a multitude of items, but try at your own risk.

On Saturday, September 11, 2021, 03:07:11 PM CDT, eddie.draper@... via groups.io <eddie.draper@...> wrote:


I have a good number of successful C/I weld repairs to my name. I use only pure Nickel MMA (stick) rods and a DC welder, with the job bombarding the electrode with electrons so it gets 2/3rds of the heat and the job only 1/3rd. (I.e. electrode +, job -, the usual arrangement with DC welding.)


There are 2 ways to proceed, either you need lots of tea and get very thirsty, or you can drink lots of tea.


The first way is to make the whole job red hot and keep it that way throughout the process, allowing it to cool uniformly afterwards. One way to achieve uniform cooling is to insulate and therefore cool slowly, but there are other ways. This is very good where the size of the workpiece brings it within your heating capabilities. There are professional outfits that weld large objects like this, by building a firebrick oven around the job, sticking a gas torch through a hole, and then welding via another hole. Not a pleasant way to earn a living on a hot day. British Rail used to have locomotive cylinder heads of V16 3300 HP Diesel engines (10" bore x 12" stroke, which is approximately 15 litres per cylinder) welded like this, and they lasted no worse than a new one.


The other way is to heat only to take the chill off, say 50C, and weld for no more than 3 seconds at a time, immediately then hammering with a pointed chipping hammer, then allowing heat soak for a while to spread the temperature throughout the object. For large objects, and especially handy where there is more than one job to work on. I once repaired 5 cast iron window frames like this, keeping moving from one to the next almost without dead time.


Both methods need a weld prep that is virtually like one for steel, BUT the materials have a quirk, and that is that the arc tries to stick to one side of the groove or the other so you need to have a groove that is wide enough for you to be able to keep pulling it back & forth.


I always try to make the job stronger than the original, especially if I don't know why the crack occurred. One of the attached photos shows a radius rod lifter from my steam loco which contained a longitudinal crack. I can't imagine how that occurred, so after welding, I shrank on some steel reinforcing rings. The original profile is still on the RH end.


The other photo is me grooving out an oil tray from the underside of an axle bearing. I could see why this was cracked, a weak design in conjunction with heavy handed spannering, so the only post weld "reinforcement" here has been painting the oil side with fibre glass resin to keep the oil from penetrating any porosity, and being careful with the spanners.


Both the above jobs were in the "small" i.e. hot category. I welded a longitudinal crack in one of the cylinders the cold way, as heating the whole cylinder was entirely unfeasible (just over 8" bore and probably weighs 1/4 ton). Additionally, it had just been rebored and the valve face skimmed, so I didn't want any distortion. The crack started at a weak point where a cylinder drain cock hole was in line with a hole for a cover fastening stud (it would have been so simple to avoid this alignment and weakness at the design stage, but that was pre 1914). In addition to welding up as much of the crack as I could, I drilled & tapped across the line of the crack through the drain cock boss for a grade 12.9 Allen screw, bolted a block either side of the crack and pulled these together with 2 more Allen screws, and added some extra cylinder cover fasteners either side of the existing and made sure those were properly tight. The weld needed to be ground back a little below the rubbing surface for the piston rings, as Nickel is a poor bearing material, known to cause crankshaft bearing seizures in Diesel engines if the interlayer that prevents diffusion between layers of a shell becomes exposed to any great extent.


I suggest you practice on a piece of scrap first, in order to prevent the job from becoming just that! Take care to preserve critical alignments during all processes. In the case of you gearbox, it would be the holes for your shafts. Maybe clamping across the crack to hold it shut during the hot work would be the right thing to do.


Good luck and best wishes,


Eddie




------ Original Message ------
From: "Vince Eugenio" <vince.eugenio.phd@...>
To: SouthBendLathe@groups.io
Sent: Friday, 10 Sep, 21 At 21:53
Subject: Re: [SouthBendLathe] Heavy 10 Single Tumbler Gearbox - Want to Buy

Thanks Dave, that is what I have found as well.


rlm_mcv
 

Eddie, you are asking questions from 30 years ago.  Settings and wire were the same as I was using for mild steel, it was a standard co2/argon mix (I did increase the flow but it might not be required). I used no preheat or special cool down.  I suggest you watch this video, it is more current and he is attempting a comparison.







On Sunday, September 12, 2021, 02:26:45 AM CDT, eddie.draper@... via groups.io <eddie.draper@...> wrote:


Apologies to all for going a bit off topic, but I'm fascinated by this and would like to try it. What filler wire did you use, please? Was the current & wire feed the same as you would use on mild steel? Any pre / post heating? Any limit to duration of welding if intermittent? How much did you turn up the gas cf steel work, and what mix was it?


Thanks,


Eddie




------ Original Message ------
From: "rlm_mcv via groups.io" <rlm_mcv@...>
To: "SouthBendLathe@groups.io" <SouthBendLathe@groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, 11 Sep, 21 At 21:38
Subject: Re: [SouthBendLathe] Heavy 10 Single Tumbler Gearbox - Want to Buy

I know it is not common excepted practice, but I used to turn up the argon/mix on my Mig and welded cast all the time without failure of the welds. I did weld some broken castings from a 24 inch X 12 foot South Bend of about 1920 vintage. They welded easily with the mig and were still in service when the lathe sold 30 yrs later. My guess is the mig allowed less heat and a more flexible filler metal. It has worked for me on a multitude of items, but try at your own risk.

On Saturday, September 11, 2021, 03:07:11 PM CDT, eddie.draper@... via groups.io <eddie.draper@...> wrote:


I have a good number of successful C/I weld repairs to my name. I use only pure Nickel MMA (stick) rods and a DC welder, with the job bombarding the electrode with electrons so it gets 2/3rds of the heat and the job only 1/3rd. (I.e. electrode +, job -, the usual arrangement with DC welding.)


There are 2 ways to proceed, either you need lots of tea and get very thirsty, or you can drink lots of tea.


The first way is to make the whole job red hot and keep it that way throughout the process, allowing it to cool uniformly afterwards. One way to achieve uniform cooling is to insulate and therefore cool slowly, but there are other ways. This is very good where the size of the workpiece brings it within your heating capabilities. There are professional outfits that weld large objects like this, by building a firebrick oven around the job, sticking a gas torch through a hole, and then welding via another hole. Not a pleasant way to earn a living on a hot day. British Rail used to have locomotive cylinder heads of V16 3300 HP Diesel engines (10" bore x 12" stroke, which is approximately 15 litres per cylinder) welded like this, and they lasted no worse than a new one.


The other way is to heat only to take the chill off, say 50C, and weld for no more than 3 seconds at a time, immediately then hammering with a pointed chipping hammer, then allowing heat soak for a while to spread the temperature throughout the object. For large objects, and especially handy where there is more than one job to work on. I once repaired 5 cast iron window frames like this, keeping moving from one to the next almost without dead time.


Both methods need a weld prep that is virtually like one for steel, BUT the materials have a quirk, and that is that the arc tries to stick to one side of the groove or the other so you need to have a groove that is wide enough for you to be able to keep pulling it back & forth.


I always try to make the job stronger than the original, especially if I don't know why the crack occurred. One of the attached photos shows a radius rod lifter from my steam loco which contained a longitudinal crack. I can't imagine how that occurred, so after welding, I shrank on some steel reinforcing rings. The original profile is still on the RH end.


The other photo is me grooving out an oil tray from the underside of an axle bearing. I could see why this was cracked, a weak design in conjunction with heavy handed spannering, so the only post weld "reinforcement" here has been painting the oil side with fibre glass resin to keep the oil from penetrating any porosity, and being careful with the spanners.


Both the above jobs were in the "small" i.e. hot category. I welded a longitudinal crack in one of the cylinders the cold way, as heating the whole cylinder was entirely unfeasible (just over 8" bore and probably weighs 1/4 ton). Additionally, it had just been rebored and the valve face skimmed, so I didn't want any distortion. The crack started at a weak point where a cylinder drain cock hole was in line with a hole for a cover fastening stud (it would have been so simple to avoid this alignment and weakness at the design stage, but that was pre 1914). In addition to welding up as much of the crack as I could, I drilled & tapped across the line of the crack through the drain cock boss for a grade 12.9 Allen screw, bolted a block either side of the crack and pulled these together with 2 more Allen screws, and added some extra cylinder cover fasteners either side of the existing and made sure those were properly tight. The weld needed to be ground back a little below the rubbing surface for the piston rings, as Nickel is a poor bearing material, known to cause crankshaft bearing seizures in Diesel engines if the interlayer that prevents diffusion between layers of a shell becomes exposed to any great extent.


I suggest you practice on a piece of scrap first, in order to prevent the job from becoming just that! Take care to preserve critical alignments during all processes. In the case of you gearbox, it would be the holes for your shafts. Maybe clamping across the crack to hold it shut during the hot work would be the right thing to do.


Good luck and best wishes,


Eddie




------ Original Message ------
From: "Vince Eugenio" <vince.eugenio.phd@...>
To: SouthBendLathe@groups.io
Sent: Friday, 10 Sep, 21 At 21:53
Subject: Re: [SouthBendLathe] Heavy 10 Single Tumbler Gearbox - Want to Buy

Thanks Dave, that is what I have found as well.