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Spindle take-up bearing interference with the gearbox engagement lever on my 10k

Rogan Creswick
 

I don't know that I have the right terms here, but hopefully with pictures they suffice.


My lathe went through a fire, and all the felt brunt up, including the felt washer that went between the spindle take-up nit and the casting.  I replaced it with the suggested fix I found on line at the time, which was a thin needle bearing and two thin hardened washers.  You can see these in the picture.

Now, I've just reassembled everything, and the lever that engages the gearbox won't seat properly in the casting because the take-up nut is further out from the casting than it was with the felt washer.

I can imagine any number of solutions here, but I'd like your suggestions.

Thanks!
Rogan


PXL_20220926_211757057.jpg

Rick
 

I’d probably just machine a little off the lever.  Option two would be to take a face cut off the nut. If I was to take it off the nut, I would take 1/2 off each side of the nut to keep it symmetrical.
m. allan noah
 

One side of the takeup nut has to stay true to the spindle, the other does not. I would take a skim cut only on the outer side.

allan


On Mon, Sep 26, 2022 at 9:26 PM Rick <vwrick@...> wrote:
I’d probably just machine a little off the lever.  Option two would be to take a face cut off the nut. If I was to take it off the nut, I would take 1/2 off each side of the nut to keep it symmetrical.



--
"well, I stand up next to a mountain- and I chop it down with the edge of my hand"
Mel Gross
 

Obviously the bearing is too thick. I don’t like the idea of taking the cast iron lever down. If you really want to keep the bearing, my suggestion is to take the nut down a bit at the rear - away from the bearing. You can do that with a mill if you have no way to machine it if it’s off the lathe.

Mel


On Sep 26, 2022, at 8:50 PM, Rogan Creswick <creswick@...> wrote:


I don't know that I have the right terms here, but hopefully with pictures they suffice.


My lathe went through a fire, and all the felt brunt up, including the felt washer that went between the spindle take-up nit and the casting.  I replaced it with the suggested fix I found on line at the time, which was a thin needle bearing and two thin hardened washers.  You can see these in the picture.

Now, I've just reassembled everything, and the lever that engages the gearbox won't seat properly in the casting because the take-up nut is further out from the casting than it was with the felt washer.

I can imagine any number of solutions here, but I'd like your suggestions.

Thanks!
Rogan


PXL_20220926_211757057.jpg
Mike Poore
 

This may not be helpful, but I did not have any interference doing the same thing on a 9A. Your bearing & shims looks thicker than mine. I also have a good .075"+- clearance where you have interference. Maybe someone could measure the thickness of an oem fiber shim to compare to your bearing/shims. I seem to remember the bearing supplier having different thicknesses of shims and thrust bearings. I got the thinnest available.

Did you by chance use a reverse lever from a different lathe? Did all of these parts come from the same lathe? Maybe there are some tolerance issues.

Is the lock pin for the reverse lever pin engaged with the hole? Maybe it is an illusion, but in the picture it looks like the lever is pushed in too far.



On 9/26/2022 8:49 PM, Rogan Creswick wrote:

I don't know that I have the right terms here, but hopefully with pictures they suffice.


My lathe went through a fire, and all the felt brunt up, including the felt washer that went between the spindle take-up nit and the casting.  I replaced it with the suggested fix I found on line at the time, which was a thin needle bearing and two thin hardened washers.  You can see these in the picture.

Now, I've just reassembled everything, and the lever that engages the gearbox won't seat properly in the casting because the take-up nut is further out from the casting than it was with the felt washer.

I can imagine any number of solutions here, but I'd like your suggestions.

Thanks!
Rogan
Andrei
 

Why is it so hard to reinstall the appropriate washer in there? You can find them for 10-20 bucks nothing on eBay. Why machine away irreplaceable parts of your machine, instead of dropping a 20 on a cheap replacement part?

From: SouthBendLathe@groups.io <SouthBendLathe@groups.io> on behalf of Mel Gross <melgross@...>
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2022 10:09 PM
To: SouthBendLathe@groups.io <SouthBendLathe@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [SouthBendLathe] Spindle take-up bearing interference with the gearbox engagement lever on my 10k
 
Obviously the bearing is too thick. I don’t like the idea of taking the cast iron lever down. If you really want to keep the bearing, my suggestion is to take the nut down a bit at the rear - away from the bearing. You can do that with a mill if you have no way to machine it if it’s off the lathe.

Mel


On Sep 26, 2022, at 8:50 PM, Rogan Creswick <creswick@...> wrote:


I don't know that I have the right terms here, but hopefully with pictures they suffice.


My lathe went through a fire, and all the felt brunt up, including the felt washer that went between the spindle take-up nit and the casting.  I replaced it with the suggested fix I found on line at the time, which was a thin needle bearing and two thin hardened washers.  You can see these in the picture.

Now, I've just reassembled everything, and the lever that engages the gearbox won't seat properly in the casting because the take-up nut is further out from the casting than it was with the felt washer.

I can imagine any number of solutions here, but I'd like your suggestions.

Thanks!
Rogan


PXL_20220926_211757057.jpg
Rick
 

Andrei, I feel that the needle bearing upgrade is worth the effort.  The fiber washer was just cheaper for South Bend. All the larger SB lathes have a bearing, not a fiber washer there.

Allan, you are absolutely right that the nut has to stay true to the spindle, but I don’t think it would be that hard to indicate it in before taking a cut on my other lathe.  Better yet, use a surface grinder.

Mel, hard to tell from the picture, but it looks like only .020” or so would have to be taken off the side of the lever, and only in a small area.  The loss of strength would be insignificant, imho.
Davis Johnson
 

Also - there are thick and thin versions of the spacer washers. You need to make sure you have the thin ones. McMaster-Carr has pretty good drawings and explanations. The stack for my 9A ended up only slightly thicker than the washer and posed no problem.

On 9/27/22 07:10, Rick wrote:

Andrei, I feel that the needle bearing upgrade is worth the effort.  The fiber washer was just cheaper for South Bend. All the larger SB lathes have a bearing, not a fiber washer there.

Allan, you are absolutely right that the nut has to stay true to the spindle, but I don’t think it would be that hard to indicate it in before taking a cut on my other lathe.  Better yet, use a surface grinder.

Mel, hard to tell from the picture, but it looks like only .020” or so would have to be taken off the side of the lever, and only in a small area.  The loss of strength would be insignificant, imho.

ww_big_al
 

I want to understand the problem. Are you referring to the gear mesh between the lead screw lever and large gear? If so, I had the same problem on my 10k after cleaning and felting it. The solution is your head stock is out of alignment. Just loosen the  the two bolts on the bottom of the head stock and use a soft face hammer to tap it rearward to re-align. You will have to take off the banjo to get to the rear bolt. I have done this bearing upgrade to both my 10k and 9a lathe.
Al
ww_big_al
 

I believe there are a couple documents in out file section on replacing the fiber washer. I believe this came from there.

 

From McMaster Carr                                                                  Part #


1 3/8 by 2 1/16 by .078 (1) each bearing                         5909K39


1 3/8 by 2 1/16 by .032 (2) each thrust washer              5909K53

 

Al

 

 

From: SouthBendLathe@groups.io <SouthBendLathe@groups.io> On Behalf Of Davis Johnson
Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2022 7:28 AM
To: SouthBendLathe@groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthBendLathe] Spindle take-up bearing interference with the gearbox engagement lever on my 10k

 

Also - there are thick and thin versions of the spacer washers. You need to make sure you have the thin ones. McMaster-Carr has pretty good drawings and explanations. The stack for my 9A ended up only slightly thicker than the washer and posed no problem.

On 9/27/22 07:10, Rick wrote:

Andrei, I feel that the needle bearing upgrade is worth the effort.  The fiber washer was just cheaper for South Bend. All the larger SB lathes have a bearing, not a fiber washer there.

Allan, you are absolutely right that the nut has to stay true to the spindle, but I don’t think it would be that hard to indicate it in before taking a cut on my other lathe.  Better yet, use a surface grinder.

Mel, hard to tell from the picture, but it looks like only .020” or so would have to be taken off the side of the lever, and only in a small area.  The loss of strength would be insignificant, imho.

Andrei
 

You may be right, Rick. My machine is a 9A with the fiber washer. Never had a problem with it operating. Maybe I lack exposure of the ones with the needle bearings. 

There may be needle bearings with thinner washers that might work without requiring machining the existing parts. Or maybe just skimming the ends of the nut might do the trick without losing too much material and undermining strength and function?


From: SouthBendLathe@groups.io <SouthBendLathe@groups.io> on behalf of Rick <vwrick@...>
Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2022 7:10 AM
To: SouthBendLathe@groups.io <SouthBendLathe@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [SouthBendLathe] Spindle take-up bearing interference with the gearbox engagement lever on my 10k
 
Andrei, I feel that the needle bearing upgrade is worth the effort.  The fiber washer was just cheaper for South Bend. All the larger SB lathes have a bearing, not a fiber washer there.

Allan, you are absolutely right that the nut has to stay true to the spindle, but I don’t think it would be that hard to indicate it in before taking a cut on my other lathe.  Better yet, use a surface grinder.

Mel, hard to tell from the picture, but it looks like only .020” or so would have to be taken off the side of the lever, and only in a small area.  The loss of strength would be insignificant, imho.

eddie.draper@btinternet.com
 

If skimming the nut, it doesn't make sense to take material from both ends. The end in contact will be square to the thread, so LEAVE IT ALONE. Reduce thickness by attacking the other end that has no squareness requirement. There is no centralising feature that requires both ends to be reduced.


Eddie




------ Original Message ------
From: "Andrei" <calciu1@...>
To: "SouthBendLathe@groups.io" <SouthBendLathe@groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, 27 Sep, 22 At 14:43
Subject: Re: [SouthBendLathe] Spindle take-up bearing interference with the gearbox engagement lever on my 10k

You may be right, Rick. My machine is a 9A with the fiber washer. Never had a problem with it operating. Maybe I lack exposure of the ones with the needle bearings.

There may be needle bearings with thinner washers that might work without requiring machining the existing parts. Or maybe just skimming the ends of the nut might do the trick without losing too much material and undermining strength and function?


From: SouthBendLathe@groups.io <SouthBendLathe@groups.io> on behalf of Rick <vwrick@...>
Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2022 7:10 AM
To: SouthBendLathe@groups.io <SouthBendLathe@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [SouthBendLathe] Spindle take-up bearing interference with the gearbox engagement lever on my 10k
Andrei, I feel that the needle bearing upgrade is worth the effort. The fiber washer was just cheaper for South Bend. All the larger SB lathes have a bearing, not a fiber washer there.

Allan, you are absolutely right that the nut has to stay true to the spindle, but I don’t think it would be that hard to indicate it in before taking a cut on my other lathe. Better yet, use a surface grinder.

Mel, hard to tell from the picture, but it looks like only .020” or so would have to be taken off the side of the lever, and only in a small area. The loss of strength would be insignificant, imho.

mike allen
 

        Where did you get the part #'s for the bearing & washers ? I did that mod when I rebuilt my 9A & everything fit's like factory . I got my part #'s from a thread on the Practical Machinist

        Forum . There used to be a sticky that had the part #'s . You should ask over there , I know lots of folks have done teh bearing swap & some may even have their old fiber washer sitting

        around . https://www.practicalmachinist.com/forum/categories/south-bend-lathes.25/


    animal


On 9/27/2022 6:43 AM, Andrei wrote:

You may be right, Rick. My machine is a 9A with the fiber washer. Never had a problem with it operating. Maybe I lack exposure of the ones with the needle bearings. 

There may be needle bearings with thinner washers that might work without requiring machining the existing parts. Or maybe just skimming the ends of the nut might do the trick without losing too much material and undermining strength and function?


From: SouthBendLathe@groups.io <SouthBendLathe@groups.io> on behalf of Rick <vwrick@...>
Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2022 7:10 AM
To: SouthBendLathe@groups.io <SouthBendLathe@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [SouthBendLathe] Spindle take-up bearing interference with the gearbox engagement lever on my 10k
 
Andrei, I feel that the needle bearing upgrade is worth the effort.  The fiber washer was just cheaper for South Bend. All the larger SB lathes have a bearing, not a fiber washer there.

Allan, you are absolutely right that the nut has to stay true to the spindle, but I don’t think it would be that hard to indicate it in before taking a cut on my other lathe.  Better yet, use a surface grinder.

Mel, hard to tell from the picture, but it looks like only .020” or so would have to be taken off the side of the lever, and only in a small area.  The loss of strength would be insignificant, imho.

mike allen
 

        Do these dimensions sound right ?  "1-3/8x2-1/16x0.032" are $1.57 from McMaster, the matching bearing $4.08, part numbers 5909K39 and 5909K53 respectively."

        animal

On 9/27/2022 6:43 AM, Andrei wrote:

You may be right, Rick. My machine is a 9A with the fiber washer. Never had a problem with it operating. Maybe I lack exposure of the ones with the needle bearings. 

There may be needle bearings with thinner washers that might work without requiring machining the existing parts. Or maybe just skimming the ends of the nut might do the trick without losing too much material and undermining strength and function?


From: SouthBendLathe@groups.io <SouthBendLathe@groups.io> on behalf of Rick <vwrick@...>
Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2022 7:10 AM
To: SouthBendLathe@groups.io <SouthBendLathe@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [SouthBendLathe] Spindle take-up bearing interference with the gearbox engagement lever on my 10k
 
Andrei, I feel that the needle bearing upgrade is worth the effort.  The fiber washer was just cheaper for South Bend. All the larger SB lathes have a bearing, not a fiber washer there.

Allan, you are absolutely right that the nut has to stay true to the spindle, but I don’t think it would be that hard to indicate it in before taking a cut on my other lathe.  Better yet, use a surface grinder.

Mel, hard to tell from the picture, but it looks like only .020” or so would have to be taken off the side of the lever, and only in a small area.  The loss of strength would be insignificant, imho.

Andrei
 

https://www.practicalmachinist.com/forum/threads/fiber-washer-needle-bearing-replacement.388192/
I was watching Greg Halligan's rebuild of his 13" South Bend, and in his episode of rebuilding the headstock, he showed that he replaced the fiber washer with a needle bearing/washer setup from McMaster-Carr. I don't have my headstock apart just yet, but I was able to take a measurement of the...
www.practicalmachinist.com

From: SouthBendLathe@groups.io <SouthBendLathe@groups.io> on behalf of mike allen <animal@...>
Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2022 12:56 PM
To: SouthBendLathe@groups.io <SouthBendLathe@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [SouthBendLathe] Spindle take-up bearing interference with the gearbox engagement lever on my 10k
 

        Do these dimensions sound right ?  "1-3/8x2-1/16x0.032" are $1.57 from McMaster, the matching bearing $4.08, part numbers 5909K39 and 5909K53 respectively."

        animal

On 9/27/2022 6:43 AM, Andrei wrote:
You may be right, Rick. My machine is a 9A with the fiber washer. Never had a problem with it operating. Maybe I lack exposure of the ones with the needle bearings. 

There may be needle bearings with thinner washers that might work without requiring machining the existing parts. Or maybe just skimming the ends of the nut might do the trick without losing too much material and undermining strength and function?


From: SouthBendLathe@groups.io <SouthBendLathe@groups.io> on behalf of Rick <vwrick@...>
Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2022 7:10 AM
To: SouthBendLathe@groups.io <SouthBendLathe@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [SouthBendLathe] Spindle take-up bearing interference with the gearbox engagement lever on my 10k
 
Andrei, I feel that the needle bearing upgrade is worth the effort.  The fiber washer was just cheaper for South Bend. All the larger SB lathes have a bearing, not a fiber washer there.

Allan, you are absolutely right that the nut has to stay true to the spindle, but I don’t think it would be that hard to indicate it in before taking a cut on my other lathe.  Better yet, use a surface grinder.

Mel, hard to tell from the picture, but it looks like only .020” or so would have to be taken off the side of the lever, and only in a small area.  The loss of strength would be insignificant, imho.

Rogan Creswick
 

Thanks for all the input / suggestions!

I took some measurements just now, and pulled the bearing / washer stack to measure that as well.

I don't have the purchase info any longer, but I believe the McMaster part #'s folks have been throwing around are what I have -- the measurements match, at least:


The whole stack is ~0.140" as measured with calipers.

I need at least 14 thou additional clearance to get the reversing level to sit properly, and to allow the reversing lever pin to sit in the registration holes in the casting. (Probably more like 20 thou, so there is *actually* some air in there and things aren't rubbing.)

Does anyone have the dimensions / tolerances for the take-up nut? Maybe mine is oversized (maybe it was replaced at some point? I doubt that, but it's certainly possible.)

Thanks!
--Rogan


On Tue, Sep 27, 2022 at 10:00 AM Andrei <calciu1@...> wrote:
https://www.practicalmachinist.com/forum/threads/fiber-washer-needle-bearing-replacement.388192/
I was watching Greg Halligan's rebuild of his 13" South Bend, and in his episode of rebuilding the headstock, he showed that he replaced the fiber washer with a needle bearing/washer setup from McMaster-Carr. I don't have my headstock apart just yet, but I was able to take a measurement of the...

From: SouthBendLathe@groups.io <SouthBendLathe@groups.io> on behalf of mike allen <animal@...>
Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2022 12:56 PM
To: SouthBendLathe@groups.io <SouthBendLathe@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [SouthBendLathe] Spindle take-up bearing interference with the gearbox engagement lever on my 10k
 

        Do these dimensions sound right ?  "1-3/8x2-1/16x0.032" are $1.57 from McMaster, the matching bearing $4.08, part numbers 5909K39 and 5909K53 respectively."

        animal

On 9/27/2022 6:43 AM, Andrei wrote:
You may be right, Rick. My machine is a 9A with the fiber washer. Never had a problem with it operating. Maybe I lack exposure of the ones with the needle bearings. 

There may be needle bearings with thinner washers that might work without requiring machining the existing parts. Or maybe just skimming the ends of the nut might do the trick without losing too much material and undermining strength and function?


From: SouthBendLathe@groups.io <SouthBendLathe@groups.io> on behalf of Rick <vwrick@...>
Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2022 7:10 AM
To: SouthBendLathe@groups.io <SouthBendLathe@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [SouthBendLathe] Spindle take-up bearing interference with the gearbox engagement lever on my 10k
 
Andrei, I feel that the needle bearing upgrade is worth the effort.  The fiber washer was just cheaper for South Bend. All the larger SB lathes have a bearing, not a fiber washer there.

Allan, you are absolutely right that the nut has to stay true to the spindle, but I don’t think it would be that hard to indicate it in before taking a cut on my other lathe.  Better yet, use a surface grinder.

Mel, hard to tell from the picture, but it looks like only .020” or so would have to be taken off the side of the lever, and only in a small area.  The loss of strength would be insignificant, imho.

Rick
 

Andrei, I don’t know what Halligan was showing, but here is a picture of the SB13 takeup bearing, and the part numbers from the South Bend parts manual.
Rick
 

On Tue, Sep 27, 2022 at 10:27 AM, eddie.draper@... wrote:
If skimming the nut, it doesn't make sense to take material from both ends. The end in contact will be square to the thread, so LEAVE IT ALONE. Reduce thickness by attacking the other end that has no squareness requirement. There is no centralising feature that requires both ends to be reduced.

 

Eddie

Eddie, you may be correct, but the way I see it, the part does have a centralizing feature, and that is the lock screw that is right in the middle of the take-up nut.
Mel Gross
 

I do t like taking anything off a fairly thing CI part. Better to take it off the back of the nut.

Mel


On Sep 27, 2022, at 7:11 AM, Rick <vwrick@...> wrote:

Andrei, I feel that the needle bearing upgrade is worth the effort.  The fiber washer was just cheaper for South Bend. All the larger SB lathes have a bearing, not a fiber washer there.

Allan, you are absolutely right that the nut has to stay true to the spindle, but I don’t think it would be that hard to indicate it in before taking a cut on my other lathe.  Better yet, use a surface grinder.

Mel, hard to tell from the picture, but it looks like only .020” or so would have to be taken off the side of the lever, and only in a small area.  The loss of strength would be insignificant, imho.

mike allen
 

        I think you can get the washers in different thickness's .

        animal

On 9/27/2022 12:59 PM, Rogan Creswick wrote:

Thanks for all the input / suggestions!

I took some measurements just now, and pulled the bearing / washer stack to measure that as well.

I don't have the purchase info any longer, but I believe the McMaster part #'s folks have been throwing around are what I have -- the measurements match, at least:


The whole stack is ~0.140" as measured with calipers.

I need at least 14 thou additional clearance to get the reversing level to sit properly, and to allow the reversing lever pin to sit in the registration holes in the casting. (Probably more like 20 thou, so there is *actually* some air in there and things aren't rubbing.)

Does anyone have the dimensions / tolerances for the take-up nut? Maybe mine is oversized (maybe it was replaced at some point? I doubt that, but it's certainly possible.)

Thanks!
--Rogan


On Tue, Sep 27, 2022 at 10:00 AM Andrei <calciu1@...> wrote:
https://www.practicalmachinist.com/forum/threads/fiber-washer-needle-bearing-replacement.388192/
I was watching Greg Halligan's rebuild of his 13" South Bend, and in his episode of rebuilding the headstock, he showed that he replaced the fiber washer with a needle bearing/washer setup from McMaster-Carr. I don't have my headstock apart just yet, but I was able to take a measurement of the...

From: SouthBendLathe@groups.io <SouthBendLathe@groups.io> on behalf of mike allen <animal@...>
Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2022 12:56 PM
To: SouthBendLathe@groups.io <SouthBendLathe@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [SouthBendLathe] Spindle take-up bearing interference with the gearbox engagement lever on my 10k
 

        Do these dimensions sound right ?  "1-3/8x2-1/16x0.032" are $1.57 from McMaster, the matching bearing $4.08, part numbers 5909K39 and 5909K53 respectively."

        animal

On 9/27/2022 6:43 AM, Andrei wrote:
You may be right, Rick. My machine is a 9A with the fiber washer. Never had a problem with it operating. Maybe I lack exposure of the ones with the needle bearings. 

There may be needle bearings with thinner washers that might work without requiring machining the existing parts. Or maybe just skimming the ends of the nut might do the trick without losing too much material and undermining strength and function?


From: SouthBendLathe@groups.io <SouthBendLathe@groups.io> on behalf of Rick <vwrick@...>
Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2022 7:10 AM
To: SouthBendLathe@groups.io <SouthBendLathe@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [SouthBendLathe] Spindle take-up bearing interference with the gearbox engagement lever on my 10k
 
Andrei, I feel that the needle bearing upgrade is worth the effort.  The fiber washer was just cheaper for South Bend. All the larger SB lathes have a bearing, not a fiber washer there.

Allan, you are absolutely right that the nut has to stay true to the spindle, but I don’t think it would be that hard to indicate it in before taking a cut on my other lathe.  Better yet, use a surface grinder.

Mel, hard to tell from the picture, but it looks like only .020” or so would have to be taken off the side of the lever, and only in a small area.  The loss of strength would be insignificant, imho.

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