decoding a South Bend manufacturing card


j eric townsend
 

Hi,

FINALLY getting around to doing this several years after getting a copy of my lathe's manufacturing card.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/allartburns/51594312424

If I understand things, "RKL" means:

R -- Heavy
K -- Gearbox
L -- Spindle type? Is this the 5C for a heavy?

I thought there would be a FAQ on this online, but maybe it's just not my night for searching the Internet.


--
Jet Townsend
<http://www.flatline.net>
HF: KC3HSO
PGP fingerprint: CBFF BB96 45F0 EC10 9649 030E 12AA 9DBF DC01 847E


wlw19958
 

Hi There,


On Fri, Oct 15, 2021 at 06:25 PM, j eric townsend wrote:
If I understand things, "RKL" means:

R -- Heavy
K -- Gearbox
L -- Spindle type? Is this the 5C for a heavy?
Your close.  The "R" was for the 10 inch (Heavy) lathe.  The
"K" is for the Quick Change Gearbox, Friction Clutch Apron
and Underneath Drive.  The "L" is for Large Spindle, Standard
Swing.

The Heavy Ten with the large spindle (a.k.a. 10L) does use 5C
Collets with the correct adapter.

According to your catalog number, 8187AB  your lathe is a "Toolroom"
version with a 4ft bed. 

Good Luck!
-Blue Chips-
Webb


Bill in OKC too
 

Mind interpreting mine for me? Mine is an 8187-RN 10L x 4 1/2 102 headstock 102 DIC 102-5C 100 for most everything else. 13-3/4" spindle. SP. Hole 1-3 It was sent to the Ruritan, NJ Arsenal 10/14/41, as a toolroom lathe, so 80 years ago yesterday. I got two 5C collet closers with it, and both regular and turret tailstocks, as well as a taper attachment. It lived in a leaky barn for five years after Bill Hinkle got it, and he sold it to me because he was about the same age as the lathe, and didn't think he was going to get to restore it himself. He didn't get to see me restore it, either. COVID-19 interrupted us both. Thanks for whatever you can tell me.

Bill in OKC

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)

A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion,
butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance
accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders,
give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new
problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight
efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
LAZARUS LONG (Robert A. Heinlein)

On Friday, October 15, 2021, 09:37:28 PM CDT, wlw19958 <wlw-19958@...> wrote:


Hi There,

On Fri, Oct 15, 2021 at 06:25 PM, j eric townsend wrote:
If I understand things, "RKL" means:

R -- Heavy
K -- Gearbox
L -- Spindle type? Is this the 5C for a heavy?
Your close.  The "R" was for the 10 inch (Heavy) lathe.  The
"K" is for the Quick Change Gearbox, Friction Clutch Apron
and Underneath Drive.  The "L" is for Large Spindle, Standard
Swing.

The Heavy Ten with the large spindle (a.k.a. 10L) does use 5C
Collets with the correct adapter.

According to your catalog number, 8187AB  your lathe is a "Toolroom"
version with a 4ft bed. 

Good Luck!
-Blue Chips-
Webb


wlw19958
 

Hi There,
 
I assume your catalog number is 8187RN.  The first "8" designate a "Toolroom"
lathe.  The "187" designates a Heavy Ten.  The "R" is for a 4-1/2ft. bed.  The "N"
I'm not familiar with off hand.  That letter is supposed to designate the drive type.
Typically it is a "B" but back in 1941, I'm not sure what they might of used for drive
designations.

The rest I'm a little confused about.  Is the 102 the unit code?  All SBL's used
a unit code on all major sub-assemblies.  I'm not sure about the 13-3/4" spindle. 
I've never heard of that.  Typically, the Heavy-Ten had two available spindles. 
They were the 1-7/8" x 8 tpi spindle and the larger 2-1/4" x 8 tpi spindle.  Spindle
size was coded into the serial number using the suffix letters at the end (but I think
SBL didn't start using suffix codes in the serial number until 1947).

Sorry I can't more helpful.

Good Luck!
-Blue Chips-
Webb


nzpropnut
 

Bill, looking at your numbers made me hunt up my Serial Card again - copy attached.

 

I had always thought of mine as being a 'Pearl Harbour' period lathe, but now, on second look, I interpret the card a bit differently.

It was rec'd at the agent's warehouse - Cosiger Machinery Co, Dayton, Ohio, on 9/10/1941  (only roughly a month earlier than yours, so mine was 80 last month!)

It stayed at Cosiger for 3.25 months until it was dispatched to The Quartermaster, War Dep't Air Corp, Planehaven, California, on 12/19/1941.

Part of the problem was we read the dates the other way round down here in NZ. We go Day/Month/Year.

 

So, it must have been manufactured late August/early September 1941.

It is an 8187AN, so, also a Toolroom model, with a 4-foot bed.

 

It was just the basic machine when I purchased it, but I then spent 7 years searching E-Bay & corresponding with SB Lathe forum members and have managed to purchase all the items it would have had when originally built, including all the 5C collet gear, plus the complete metric transposing set and large-dial taper attachment & telescopic screw from Ted.

 

The gearbox was fully rebuilt by the 2nd owner (a toolmaker) before he passed.

He also incorporated a lever-action clutch into an enlarged UMD countershaft driven wheel as he screwed shafts for large building clock assemblies with it.

Just nudge it with your left elbow and everything stops!

He also built a very substantial steel cabinet to mount the lathe on.

I purchased it from his estate through a family connection.

Cheers,

Tony

 

From: SouthBendLathe@groups.io [mailto:SouthBendLathe@groups.io] On Behalf Of Bill in OKC too via groups.io
Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2021 4:06 PM
To: SouthBendLathe@groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthBendLathe] decoding a South Bend manufacturing card

 

Mind interpreting mine for me? Mine is an 8187-RN 10L x 4 1/2 102 headstock 102 DIC 102-5C 100 for most everything else. 13-3/4" spindle. SP. Hole 1-3 It was sent to the Ruritan, NJ Arsenal 10/14/41, as a toolroom lathe, so 80 years ago yesterday. I got two 5C collet closers with it, and both regular and turret tailstocks, as well as a taper attachment. It lived in a leaky barn for five years after Bill Hinkle got it, and he sold it to me because he was about the same age as the lathe, and didn't think he was going to get to restore it himself. He didn't get to see me restore it, either. COVID-19 interrupted us both. Thanks for whatever you can tell me.

Bill in OKC

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)

A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion,
butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance
accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders,
give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new
problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight
efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
LAZARUS LONG (Robert A. Heinlein)

On Friday, October 15, 2021, 09:37:28 PM CDT, wlw19958 <wlw-19958@...> wrote:

 

 

Hi There,

On Fri, Oct 15, 2021 at 06:25 PM, j eric townsend wrote:

If I understand things, "RKL" means:

R -- Heavy
K -- Gearbox
L -- Spindle type? Is this the 5C for a heavy?

Your close.  The "R" was for the 10 inch (Heavy) lathe.  The
"K" is for the Quick Change Gearbox, Friction Clutch Apron
and Underneath Drive.  The "L" is for Large Spindle, Standard
Swing.

The Heavy Ten with the large spindle (a.k.a. 10L) does use 5C
Collets with the correct adapter.

According to your catalog number, 8187AB  your lathe is a "Toolroom"
version with a 4ft bed. 

Good Luck!
-Blue Chips-
Webb


wlw19958
 

Hi There, 

After seeing Tony's Build card, I can see that the numbers (like 100,
102, etc.) I believe, do refer to the unit codes of the sub-assemblies. 
I see that the 13-3/4" is the spindle length.  Seeing the build card explains
a lot.  Also, the "N" does refer to the UMD drive assembly (but the card
does mention something about a maple top with 8 drawers substitute
for the steel top).

Reading the Build Card has been very educational.

Good Luck!
-Blue Chips-
Webb


Bill in OKC too
 

I've attached a copy of my serial number card, as well, so we can compare them, I note that Tony's has the same 102-5C for the DIC, as well, though his spindle is slightly different, at 13=28/32 or maybe that's a 25/32nds. It was 1941, and there was a war on. that might not have been significant at the time, though it would flunk a part in my class. ;) I do have the 2-1/4-8 spindle nose, as well.

I guess I got lucky on the parts with mine, in most ways, though I have the single tumbler gearbox, and I think Tony's is a double tumbler. The handle is broken off mine, but the broken piece is there so can be brazed back on, and I have the skills and tools to do that. I also have an apparently complete spare single tumbler gear box. I was told that Bill H hunted for a while to get the Turret tailstock, so I know it isn't original with my lathe, but it's possible most of the rest of the stuff is. Though there is that spare 5C collet closer, too. ;) I got it for $950 as is, on one of the more modern (like 1939) steel-tubing benches. It's missing two of the drawers, so one of these days I'll be venturing back into the sheet-metal working realm. Making drawers instead of armour will be something new and different for me. ;)

Bill in OKC

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion,
butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance
accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders,
give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new
problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight
efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
LAZARUS LONG (Robert A. Heinlein)


On Saturday, October 16, 2021, 01:18:03 AM CDT, wlw19958 <wlw-19958@...> wrote:


Hi There, 

After seeing Tony's Build card, I can see that the numbers (like 100,
102, etc.) I believe, do refer to the unit codes of the sub-assemblies. 
I see that the 13-3/4" is the spindle length.  Seeing the build card explains
a lot.  Also, the "N" does refer to the UMD drive assembly (but the card
does mention something about a maple top with 8 drawers substitute
for the steel top).

Reading the Build Card has been very educational.

Good Luck!
-Blue Chips-
Webb


nzpropnut
 

Bill, my machine is definitely a single tumbler machine. I have measured nearly 0.0015" wear on the ways near the headstock but I can live with that. There are no dents or dings anywhere on the ways. I have to modify the full-length chip guard on the rear to give clearance to fit the taper attachment. I took a lot of attachments off it to get the weight down for the move to our current location 4 years back. Did the move - no drama, but the house has caused a lot of drama through poor construction, so haven't yet reassembled the lathe as there may be another move coming up. We shall see.
Cheers, Tony.





-------- Original message --------
From: "Bill in OKC too via groups.io" <wmrmeyers@...>
Date: 17/10/21 00:44 (GMT+12:00)
To: southbendlathe@groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthBendLathe] decoding a South Bend manufacturing card

I've attached a copy of my serial number card, as well, so we can compare them, I note that Tony's has the same 102-5C for the DIC, as well, though his spindle is slightly different, at 13=28/32 or maybe that's a 25/32nds. It was 1941, and there was a war on. that might not have been significant at the time, though it would flunk a part in my class. ;) I do have the 2-1/4-8 spindle nose, as well.

I guess I got lucky on the parts with mine, in most ways, though I have the single tumbler gearbox, and I think Tony's is a double tumbler. The handle is broken off mine, but the broken piece is there so can be brazed back on, and I have the skills and tools to do that. I also have an apparently complete spare single tumbler gear box. I was told that Bill H hunted for a while to get the Turret tailstock, so I know it isn't original with my lathe, but it's possible most of the rest of the stuff is. Though there is that spare 5C collet closer, too. ;) I got it for $950 as is, on one of the more modern (like 1939) steel-tubing benches. It's missing two of the drawers, so one of these days I'll be venturing back into the sheet-metal working realm. Making drawers instead of armour will be something new and different for me. ;)

Bill in OKC

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion,
butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance
accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders,
give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new
problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight
efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
LAZARUS LONG (Robert A. Heinlein)


On Saturday, October 16, 2021, 01:18:03 AM CDT, wlw19958 <wlw-19958@...> wrote:


Hi There, 

After seeing Tony's Build card, I can see that the numbers (like 100,
102, etc.) I believe, do refer to the unit codes of the sub-assemblies. 
I see that the 13-3/4" is the spindle length.  Seeing the build card explains
a lot.  Also, the "N" does refer to the UMD drive assembly (but the card
does mention something about a maple top with 8 drawers substitute
for the steel top).

Reading the Build Card has been very educational.

Good Luck!
-Blue Chips-
Webb


nzpropnut
 

Bill, I was also pleasantly surprised to see the Gosiger Tool Co is still operational - listed on my Serial Card as the original agent. I spent a bit of time on their website tonight.
Cheers, Tony





-------- Original message --------
From: "Bill in OKC too via groups.io" <wmrmeyers@...>
Date: 17/10/21 00:44 (GMT+12:00)
To: southbendlathe@groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthBendLathe] decoding a South Bend manufacturing card

I've attached a copy of my serial number card, as well, so we can compare them, I note that Tony's has the same 102-5C for the DIC, as well, though his spindle is slightly different, at 13=28/32 or maybe that's a 25/32nds. It was 1941, and there was a war on. that might not have been significant at the time, though it would flunk a part in my class. ;) I do have the 2-1/4-8 spindle nose, as well.

I guess I got lucky on the parts with mine, in most ways, though I have the single tumbler gearbox, and I think Tony's is a double tumbler. The handle is broken off mine, but the broken piece is there so can be brazed back on, and I have the skills and tools to do that. I also have an apparently complete spare single tumbler gear box. I was told that Bill H hunted for a while to get the Turret tailstock, so I know it isn't original with my lathe, but it's possible most of the rest of the stuff is. Though there is that spare 5C collet closer, too. ;) I got it for $950 as is, on one of the more modern (like 1939) steel-tubing benches. It's missing two of the drawers, so one of these days I'll be venturing back into the sheet-metal working realm. Making drawers instead of armour will be something new and different for me. ;)

Bill in OKC

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion,
butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance
accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders,
give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new
problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight
efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
LAZARUS LONG (Robert A. Heinlein)


On Saturday, October 16, 2021, 01:18:03 AM CDT, wlw19958 <wlw-19958@...> wrote:


Hi There, 

After seeing Tony's Build card, I can see that the numbers (like 100,
102, etc.) I believe, do refer to the unit codes of the sub-assemblies. 
I see that the 13-3/4" is the spindle length.  Seeing the build card explains
a lot.  Also, the "N" does refer to the UMD drive assembly (but the card
does mention something about a maple top with 8 drawers substitute
for the steel top).

Reading the Build Card has been very educational.

Good Luck!
-Blue Chips-
Webb


wlw19958
 

Hi There, 

I think Tony's spindle is 13-23/32" (if I read that right).  That is only a 1/32" shorter
than yours.  The length is the least critical dimension.  The collet draw bar can 
easily span that difference.  Both lathes have the larger spindle (the spindle hole
is listed as 1-3/8" which is the larger spindle).

I'm curious about the electrical controls on Bill's lathe.  The card indicates that it
has a non reversible motor starter.  The "West DE-10N MTR. 10-100 Watchman
Style" doesn't imply anything to me.  If it still has the original motor and controls,
it would be interesting to know what they are and may shed light on the meaning
of the description on the serial number card.

Good Luck!
-Blue Chips-
Webb


Bill in OKC too
 

It has a stoutish 3phase 220/440vac motor with no data plate now. None of the electrics are there otherwise. No idea what the motor is really rated for, just going on what Bill H said, IF I remember it right. Was going to take it to work, where we had 220/440vac 3 phase power, and cables, and my boss was thoroughly capable with motor troubleshooting. Though his preferred method of repair was " remove & replace." Worked for me, as he sent several motors home with me for practice.

Fortunately, I bought my own Megger, since the job evaporated last April, and the boss shortly after. He's not returning my calls, so I'm gonna have to figure it out on my own. I've gotten a few books on the subject, and some experience of my own from working maintenance on there for five+ years.

Bill in OKC

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion,
butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance
accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders,
give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new
problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight
efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
LAZARUS LONG (Robert A. Heinlein)





On Saturday, October 16, 2021, 10:27:11 AM CDT, wlw19958 <wlw-19958@...> wrote:


Hi There, 

I think Tony's spindle is 13-23/32" (if I read that right).  That is only a 1/32" shorter
than yours.  The length is the least critical dimension.  The collet draw bar can 
easily span that difference.  Both lathes have the larger spindle (the spindle hole
is listed as 1-3/8" which is the larger spindle).

I'm curious about the electrical controls on Bill's lathe.  The card indicates that it
has a non reversible motor starter.  The "West DE-10N MTR. 10-100 Watchman
Style" doesn't imply anything to me.  If it still has the original motor and controls,
it would be interesting to know what they are and may shed light on the meaning
of the description on the serial number card.

Good Luck!
-Blue Chips-
Webb


wlw19958
 

Hi There,


On Sat, Oct 16, 2021 at 09:55 AM, Bill in OKC too wrote:
It has a stoutish 3phase 220/440vac motor with no data plate now.
Well Bill, your serial card states that it left SBL with a 3/4HP single phase motor,
115 volts.  Electrics get change a lot on these lathes over the years and obviously
yours has been changed too. 

Good Luck!
-Blue Chips-
Webb